The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[braindeadpj]

He also says that RR had a cutoff of Friday night rather than the Saturday night of the other papers...

[braindeadpj]

FYI, David published an earlier chart book, only available on kindle, for the BBC charts of the 60s, titled "The 1960s Charts Book". Dated as June 2021 on Amazon US. The 'look inside' intro part again shows a good knowledge of 50s & 60s UK charts history, with some occasional questionable statements and opinion. Link:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/1960s-Chart...s%2C213&sr=1-1

I want to order this book, but I think I'll hold off until I hear back from more of you. I hope it's a job well done, but the above comments give me pause. Is this guy really a chart freak like us, where history, knowledge, and accuracy matter, or is he out for financial gain?

Yall let me know when your copies arrive. Cheers...

Interesting, the sample from "The 1960s Charts Book" says (Under re-writing chart history) talking about RR not having Please Please me as a no.1 "In the case of the Beatles disc, Record Retailer actually had it confused with "Wayward Wind" by Frank Ifield...." anyone know what the evidence for this statement is, or have you heard of it before?

[MrTibbs]

I am hoping against hope that this book is well researched, detailed, thoroughly checked to make it as accurate as possible, because I too want the convenience of all the major charts under one roof.

I pray it doesn't disappoint by being yet another cobbled together book just to make a fast buck like for example David Armstrong's BBC Chart book which used inaccurate incomplete data of Dave Taylor and Trevor poached off sites like here and others on line.
Also I hope it uses accurate reliable source material and doesn't just pull the information from the likes of Tony Jasper's error ridden Record Mirror Chart Top Twenty book. I too am already disappointed a bit to hear from Robin's perusal that the RR charts (although we all berate them) are not included even just for comparison's sake.

I've ordered it, fingers crossed, and hope it doesn't turn out to be a turkey.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

This would appear to be a most interesting book, a weekly chart comparison, which has always been on my wish list, ha. I checked out the 'look inside' pages on Amazon and discovered:

--the history of the UK charts 50s & 60s in the intro appears to be mostly accurate as we know it, seemingly based on Alan Smith's research and articles, though a statement here or there is questionable or opinion

--but the way David Hill says NME used sales data on a pre-order basis, giving the appearance that their chart was ahead of the others, seems to imply that NME did this for every record, that's how he comes across to me anyway. Though I think it has been our collective impression this was only done for major artists, Elvis, Cliff, The Beatles, etc.

--he does point out the flaws of Record Retailer, most good (he sounds like me at times !!)

--but I wish he would have started prior to 1956

--the included charts are NME till Dec 1969, RM till Mar 1962, MM till Dec 1969, Disc till Aug 1967, BBC/BRMB (instead of BMRB) till Dec 1969. But in the next paragraph all these are mentioned again except the BBC ends at Feb 1969, and no mention of BMRB.

--he states RR charts are not included because these were not available to the general public. Hello, they were printed in RM 1962-69 !! So as much as I have railed against RR, I still want them in my perfect weekly chart comparison book !!

--his discussion of split sides isn't completely correct either. Yes NME continued listing some split sides long after the others had ceased, but they also listed combo sides. He claims the other charts listed both sides together, eventually yes, but they also listed split sides in earlier years.

--I wonder if the full charts will be listed, up to 50 positions for MM and Disc, or will they be truncated at 30? Will he show the BBC complete calculated 30 when only the Top 20 was broadcast?

--what are the sources for David's charts? Did he do all the original chart gathering work, or just copy info from websites?

FYI, David published an earlier chart book, only available on kindle, for the BBC charts of the 60s, titled "The 1960s Charts Book". Dated as June 2021 on Amazon US. The 'look inside' intro part again shows a good knowledge of 50s & 60s UK charts history, with some occasional questionable statements and opinion. Link:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/1960s-Chart...s%2C213&sr=1-1

I want to order this book, but I think I'll hold off until I hear back from more of you. I hope it's a job well done, but the above comments give me pause. Is this guy really a chart freak like us, where history, knowledge, and accuracy matter, or is he out for financial gain?

Yall let me know when your copies arrive. Cheers...

[Woz1234]

'Temporarily out of stock' - you've snapped up all their copies!

Don't worry I just refresh the page & now working, it's selling for £15.99

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pop-Fans-Ch...ks%2C93&sr=1-1

[MrTibbs]

'Temporarily out of stock' - you've snapped up all their copies!

Oh Dear ! .. now I'm feeling guilty

[kingofskiffle]

What! We only bought one …. Each….

[Splodj]

'Temporarily out of stock' - you've snapped up all their copies!

[kingofskiffle]

As have I. It looks interesting. I’m wondering if it has been produced using the Amazon print on demand service - if so the Graham Betts chart books were done like that and the books are therefore very good quality production (In terms of paper, binding, etc) which is of course what you want from this kind of a book - one designed to be thumbed through constantly.

[Robbie]

I've ordered a copy too.

[MrTibbs]

There is a new book that members of this forum may find interesting.

It is January 1958 and you are the world’s biggest rock and roll fan. You are rushing to the newsagents to buy the latest edition of your favourite music paper. You absolutely must find out if Elvis has entered the charts at number 1 with ‘Jailhouse Rock’.

Fast forward five years – its February 1963. The papers are reporting a musical earthquake. The Beatles are topping the charts for the first of many times with their second record, ‘Please Please Me’.

Whether it was the ‘New Music Express’, ‘Melody Maker’, ‘Record Mirror’ or Disc Magazine, the story was that thesewere milestones in the history of pop music.

On the radio, Sunday was chart day. Sunday at four always meant Alan freeman counting down the charts on ‘Pick of the Pops’ on the BBC. A few hours later, the tuning knob was turned to point to 208 to hear the Radio Luxembourg ‘Top Twenty’, presented by star broadcasters such as Keith Fordyce, Barry Alldis, David Gell or Paul Burnett.



These music paper and radio charts have become lost in time, that is, until now.

‘The Pop Fans Charts Book’ lists every weekly music paper and broadcast chart side by side from January 1956 to the end of the 1960s.





Amazon.co.uk : pop fans charts

Interesting ! I have mine ordered already.

[TopTwenty]

There is a new book that members of this forum may find interesting.

It is January 1958 and you are the world’s biggest rock and roll fan. You are rushing to the newsagents to buy the latest edition of your favourite music paper. You absolutely must find out if Elvis has entered the charts at number 1 with ‘Jailhouse Rock’.

Fast forward five years – its February 1963. The papers are reporting a musical earthquake. The Beatles are topping the charts for the first of many times with their second record, ‘Please Please Me’.

Whether it was the ‘New Music Express’, ‘Melody Maker’, ‘Record Mirror’ or Disc Magazine, the story was that thesewere milestones in the history of pop music.

On the radio, Sunday was chart day. Sunday at four always meant Alan freeman counting down the charts on ‘Pick of the Pops’ on the BBC. A few hours later, the tuning knob was turned to point to 208 to hear the Radio Luxembourg ‘Top Twenty’, presented by star broadcasters such as Keith Fordyce, Barry Alldis, David Gell or Paul Burnett.



These music paper and radio charts have become lost in time, that is, until now.

‘The Pop Fans Charts Book’ lists every weekly music paper and broadcast chart side by side from January 1956 to the end of the 1960s.





Amazon.co.uk : pop fans charts

[Germanicus]

You are right Germanicus RR does not have EP'S in their chart. What has happened here is I have taken an average from the other charts and a2arded it to RR to compile the chart. Normally after I have done that I remove this average from the spreadsheet to prevent confusion but obviously I for got to do that for this week. I will correct that. Thanks for picking up on that oversight.

Brian

My Respects to you Mr Tibbs

Your post in relation to The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined was very detailed and concise.

I enjoyed following your narrative, as well as reading others discussing this topic ie; The Ultimate Averaged......
I appreciate your response and happy to assist.

Most respectfully

Germanicus

[Splodj]

Pop Weekly did not do any RR-compensating calculations for EPs, and their significantly lower EP positions are a dead giveaway that their charts are not based on store returns.

[MrTibbs]

You are right Germanicus RR does not have EP'S in their chart. What has happened here is I have taken an average from the other charts and a2arded it to RR to compile the chart. Normally after I have done that I remove this average from the spreadsheet to prevent confusion but obviously I for got to do that for this week. I will correct that. Thanks for picking up on that oversight.

Brian

[Germanicus]

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 4th 1964							BBC	NME	RM	MM	Disc	RR
Last	This						Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart
Week	Week	Title and Artist						Total Chart Positions				30
1	1	I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles					1	1		1	1	1
2	2	Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five					2	2		2	2	2
3	3	She Loves You - The Beatles					3	3		3	3	3
4	4	Dominique - The Singing Nun					6=	5		4	7	7
7	5	I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield					5	4		7	5	6
6	6	You Were Made For Me - Freddie and The Dreamers					4	8		5	4	4
8	7	Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney					6=	6		6	6	5
5	8	Secret Love - Kathy Kirby					8	7		8	8	9
11	9	Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin					9	9		9	12	11
21	10	Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans					10	9		12	10	13
9	11	Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras					11	11		11	15	8
14	12	I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones					13	12		10	16	15
10	13	Don't Talk To Him - Cliff Richard					12	12		14	11	10
12	14	Geronimo - The Shadows					15	14		13	20	12
13	15	Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles					16	17		16	13	15
16	16	You'll Never Walk Alone - Gerry and The Pacemakers					18	16		15	18	16
15	17	Kiss Me Quick - Elvis Presley					17	15		19	14	14
20	18	Chris Sandford - Not Too Little Not Too Much					19	22		18	19	18
24	19	Stay - The Hollies					21	18		21	28	17
17	20	The Beatles Hits (EP) - The Beatles					20	19		24	17	20
18	21	I'll Keep You Satisfied - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas					22	23		20	21	21
23	22	We Are In Love - Adam Faith					23	21		22	24	20
29	23	Money - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen					24	26		17		19
19	24	All I Want For Christmas Is A Beatle - Dora Bryan					25	27		23	27	24
22	25	It's Almost Tomorrow - Mark Wynter					26	24		25	25	30
26	26	Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury					28	25		29	22
25	27	If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe					27			26	26	22
27	28	I (Who Have Nothing) - Shirley Bassey					29			28		25
NEW	29	What To Do - Buddy Holly								27		28
NEW	30	At The Palace - Wilfrid Brambell and Harry H Corbett					30=	28				26
		Do You Hear What I Hear - Bing Crosby					30=				23
		Blue Bayou / Mean Woman Blues - Roy Orbison										23
		Country Boy - Heinz									29	27
		Hungry For Love - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates						30		30
		The Beatles No 1 (EP) - The Beatles						29
		From Russia With Love - Matt Monro										29
		I'm In Love - The Fourmost									30
		With The Beatles (LP) - The Beatles						20			9

Hello Mr Tibbs

In your post #7 The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 4th 1964

https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...0#post10418390

This is specific for the Record Retailer Column

You have the following..................................................RR

14 12 I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones........15
13 15 Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles....................15

17 20 The Beatles Hits (EP) - The Beatles...................20
23 22 We Are In Love - Adam Faith..............................20

I was not aware that Record Retailer included EP's in their Charts.

Is this an oversight or can you share the reasoning please.

The previous weeks charts does not include The Beatles EP's in The Record Retailer Charts

#2720 Fri May 28, 2021, 04:10

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 28th 1963

https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...0#post10633760

The week after Week Ending January 11th 1964 does not include The Beatles EP's in The Record Retailer Charts

#18 Wed June 17, 2020, 23:34

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 11th 1964

https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...8#post10418798

I am just curious. Not being critical as I can see this was a monumental effort. Well done.

Your assistance would be greatfully appreciated.

I enjoyed reading all your posts.

Most respectfully

Germanicus

[Splodj]

Well done Me Tibbs. There must have been a terrible moment when you thought your visit would be to no avail!

Going back to the copyright issue mentioned a few posts ago ...

If a composite chart is a breach of copyright then I don't understand how Pop Weekly was allowed to publish one for so long, albeit a week late. I assume their UK chart was compiled without permission of the contributory charts as, unlike on POTP, they were not mentioned.

[MrTibbs]

It sounds like you had a very fruitful visit to London MrTibbs. Also, it's possible that you could be the last person to be able to access some of those older volumes of Record Mirror. I'm looking forward to the thread!

Yeah Robbie the Head Archivist confirmed that to me. He advised when I had finished with the volumes concerned that they will be filed as and I quote 'Unfit For Use. In Very Poor Condition' until such as a time they can be converted to Microfilm and that is likely to be years down the line due to the amount of documents awaiting this.

[Robbie]

It sounds like you had a very fruitful visit to London MrTibbs. Also, it's possible that you could be the last person to be able to access some of those older volumes of Record Mirror. I'm looking forward to the thread!

[MrTibbs]

Morning All. Just to update you on progress with my next project.

THE RECORD MIRROR CHARTS, REVISED, RE-CALCULATED AND FULLY EXTENDED.

I have now returned from London armed with hours and hours of research into all Record Mirror's Charts from 1954 to 1961 enabling me to begin this long awaited project.
I now have every one of Record Mirror's dealer charts in my possession amounting to over 1500 part pages taken from RM. I was lucky because I had great difficulty in accessing some of the old volumes because they are no longer available for viewing by the public due to their deteriorating and very fragile condition. I had to go to great lengths to prove the purpose of my research before the British Library reluctantly agreed me access and then only under the condition of strict supervised access.

This research also allowed me to copy all RM's Album Charts too from 1956 through March 1962 when it adopted RR as its chart source.

So hopefully tomorrow, or failing that Monday I will open a new thread and give a detailed introduction and outline about the project, methodology, background etc.

I hope all of you who enjoyed the UAC will 'Like' and follow this new thread which will take Record Mirror's charts to a whole new level not seen before.

[MrTibbs]

I have a question. I have done a similar work to yourself, (although by no means as accurate), in relation to the US Charts of the 60s. In the absence of definitive data re sample sizes etc, I utilised a method similar to that employed by the BBC. Although my method for eliminating ties was much more ruthless, I still had to tolerate some tied positions. I am thinking of putting my work into book form and selling it as an ebook. This is something you should seriously consider in respect of your own magnificent effort which I have been following with great interest. If we did publish books containing our average charts, would we be in breach of copyright? Could we be subject to legal action? Have you ever considered this point? Once again your work is to be commended.

I have been asked a good few times Magician if I have plans to publish them in an ebook but not thought about it seriously yet to be honest. But who knows lol. I agree with kingofskiffle I too would like to see more of your charts in a thread and thanks too for your kind words of support for this thread.

[Magician]

I would encourage you to start a new thread with this, as it is a good idea. You can then gauge interest for a book, if thats what you ultimately want to do.

I’ve taken preliminary legal advice. Apparently it wouldn’t be a breach of copyright so I’ll just give it some thought about how best to go about it. Not expecting floods of interest as this whole topic is something of a niche interest. The market would be limited. It would probably have to be an ebook for that reason. Apparently someone has already started a thread on the subject. I was more interested in the concept of putting the material into book form, hence commenting on this thread. I reiterate, the U.K. average chart compiled by Mr Tibbs would be of much more interest, my effort is more akin to the original BBC chart and probably just as prone to errors.

[kingofskiffle]

I would encourage you to start a new thread with this, as it is a good idea. You can then gauge interest for a book, if thats what you ultimately want to do.

[Magician]

As a taster, here is the US Average Top Twenty of sixty years ago. Yes I know this thread relates to the alternative to the POTP chart and I don’t propose to make a habit of it but there is a common thread and I would also encourage Mr Tibbs to put his work in book form.

21 July 1962

1	1	Roses Are Red (My Love)	Bobby Vinton
2	4	The Wah Watusi	The Orlons
3	3	I Can't Stop Loving You	Ray Charles
4	2	The Stripper	David Rose and His Orchestra
5	6	Sealed With A Kiss	Brian Hyland
6	5	Wolverton Mountain	Claude King
7	11	Speedy Gonzales	Pat Boone
8	10	Gravy (For My Mashed Potatoes)	Dee Dee Sharp
9	16	Ahab, The Arab	Ray Stevens
10	19	Breaking Up Is Hard To Do	Neil Sedaka
11	12	Johnny Get Angry	Joanie Sommers
12	7	Palisades Park	Freddy Cannon
13	9	Al Di La'	Emilio Pericoli
14	14	Theme From Dr. Kildare (Three Stars Will Shine Tonight)	Richard Chamberlain
15	8	It Keeps Right On A-Hurtin'	Johnny Tillotson
16	17	Having A Party	Sam Cooke
17	—	Dancin' Party	Chubby Checker
18	—	Twist And Shout	The Isley Brothers
19	—	You'll Lose A Good Thing	Barbara Lynn
20	20	I'll Never Dance Again	Bobby Rydell

[Magician]

Several books exist on Amazon utilising data from the UK charts, both with and without the official charts company guidance. I would suggest that using the entire NME chart as is may be liable to copyright, but simply stating you used it would be fine. The records themselves are not subject to copyright as far as titles, etc go - unless you include images of the artwork. My view, am not a trained lawyer and this is not legal advice.

I used Billboard, Cashbox and Music Vendor/Record World, allocated chart points in the same way that they did to compile the BBC chart so the end product looks nothing like the source charts. The differences between the charts was much greater in some cases than the source charts for the BBC charts. It would be interesting to see how anyone could file a copyright claim but the ingenuity of the legal profession means one must exercise an abundance of caution. I wouldn’t for example do as Mr Tibbs has done and quote the data from the source charts. I wonder who has copyright for the BBC Chart.