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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • braindeadpj
    replied
    He also says that RR had a cutoff of Friday night rather than the Saturday night of the other papers...

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post

    FYI, David published an earlier chart book, only available on kindle, for the BBC charts of the 60s, titled "The 1960s Charts Book". Dated as June 2021 on Amazon US. The 'look inside' intro part again shows a good knowledge of 50s & 60s UK charts history, with some occasional questionable statements and opinion. Link:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/1960s-Chart...s%2C213&sr=1-1

    I want to order this book, but I think I'll hold off until I hear back from more of you. I hope it's a job well done, but the above comments give me pause. Is this guy really a chart freak like us, where history, knowledge, and accuracy matter, or is he out for financial gain?

    Yall let me know when your copies arrive. Cheers...
    Interesting, the sample from "The 1960s Charts Book" says (Under re-writing chart history) talking about RR not having Please Please me as a no.1 "In the case of the Beatles disc, Record Retailer actually had it confused with "Wayward Wind" by Frank Ifield...." anyone know what the evidence for this statement is, or have you heard of it before?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I am hoping against hope that this book is well researched, detailed, thoroughly checked to make it as accurate as possible, because I too want the convenience of all the major charts under one roof.

    I pray it doesn't disappoint by being yet another cobbled together book just to make a fast buck like for example David Armstrong's BBC Chart book which used inaccurate incomplete data of Dave Taylor and Trevor poached off sites like here and others on line.
    Also I hope it uses accurate reliable source material and doesn't just pull the information from the likes of Tony Jasper's error ridden Record Mirror Chart Top Twenty book. I too am already disappointed a bit to hear from Robin's perusal that the RR charts (although we all berate them) are not included even just for comparison's sake.

    I've ordered it, fingers crossed, and hope it doesn't turn out to be a turkey.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    This would appear to be a most interesting book, a weekly chart comparison, which has always been on my wish list, ha. I checked out the 'look inside' pages on Amazon and discovered:

    --the history of the UK charts 50s & 60s in the intro appears to be mostly accurate as we know it, seemingly based on Alan Smith's research and articles, though a statement here or there is questionable or opinion

    --but the way David Hill says NME used sales data on a pre-order basis, giving the appearance that their chart was ahead of the others, seems to imply that NME did this for every record, that's how he comes across to me anyway. Though I think it has been our collective impression this was only done for major artists, Elvis, Cliff, The Beatles, etc.

    --he does point out the flaws of Record Retailer, most good (he sounds like me at times !!)

    --but I wish he would have started prior to 1956

    --the included charts are NME till Dec 1969, RM till Mar 1962, MM till Dec 1969, Disc till Aug 1967, BBC/BRMB (instead of BMRB) till Dec 1969. But in the next paragraph all these are mentioned again except the BBC ends at Feb 1969, and no mention of BMRB.

    --he states RR charts are not included because these were not available to the general public. Hello, they were printed in RM 1962-69 !! So as much as I have railed against RR, I still want them in my perfect weekly chart comparison book !!

    --his discussion of split sides isn't completely correct either. Yes NME continued listing some split sides long after the others had ceased, but they also listed combo sides. He claims the other charts listed both sides together, eventually yes, but they also listed split sides in earlier years.

    --I wonder if the full charts will be listed, up to 50 positions for MM and Disc, or will they be truncated at 30? Will he show the BBC complete calculated 30 when only the Top 20 was broadcast?

    --what are the sources for David's charts? Did he do all the original chart gathering work, or just copy info from websites?

    FYI, David published an earlier chart book, only available on kindle, for the BBC charts of the 60s, titled "The 1960s Charts Book". Dated as June 2021 on Amazon US. The 'look inside' intro part again shows a good knowledge of 50s & 60s UK charts history, with some occasional questionable statements and opinion. Link:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/1960s-Chart...s%2C213&sr=1-1

    I want to order this book, but I think I'll hold off until I hear back from more of you. I hope it's a job well done, but the above comments give me pause. Is this guy really a chart freak like us, where history, knowledge, and accuracy matter, or is he out for financial gain?

    Yall let me know when your copies arrive. Cheers...

    Leave a comment:


  • Woz1234
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    'Temporarily out of stock' - you've snapped up all their copies!
    Don't worry I just refresh the page & now working, it's selling for 15.99

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pop-Fans-Ch...ks%2C93&sr=1-1

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    'Temporarily out of stock' - you've snapped up all their copies!
    Oh Dear ! .. now I'm feeling guilty

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    What! We only bought one …. Each….

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    'Temporarily out of stock' - you've snapped up all their copies!

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    As have I. It looks interesting. I’m wondering if it has been produced using the Amazon print on demand service - if so the Graham Betts chart books were done like that and the books are therefore very good quality production (In terms of paper, binding, etc) which is of course what you want from this kind of a book - one designed to be thumbed through constantly.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    I've ordered a copy too.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by TopTwenty View Post
    There is a new book that members of this forum may find interesting.

    It is January 1958 and you are the world’s biggest rock and roll fan. You are rushing to the newsagents to buy the latest edition of your favourite music paper. You absolutely must find out if Elvis has entered the charts at number 1 with ‘Jailhouse Rock’.

    Fast forward five years – its February 1963. The papers are reporting a musical earthquake. The Beatles are topping the charts for the first of many times with their second record, ‘Please Please Me’.

    Whether it was the ‘New Music Express’, ‘Melody Maker’, ‘Record Mirror’ or Disc Magazine, the story was that thesewere milestones in the history of pop music.

    On the radio, Sunday was chart day. Sunday at four always meant Alan freeman counting down the charts on ‘Pick of the Pops’ on the BBC. A few hours later, the tuning knob was turned to point to 208 to hear the Radio Luxembourg ‘Top Twenty’, presented by star broadcasters such as Keith Fordyce, Barry Alldis, David Gell or Paul Burnett.



    These music paper and radio charts have become lost in time, that is, until now.

    ‘The Pop Fans Charts Book’ lists every weekly music paper and broadcast chart side by side from January 1956 to the end of the 1960s.





    Amazon.co.uk : pop fans charts
    Interesting ! I have mine ordered already.

    Leave a comment:


  • TopTwenty
    replied
    There is a new book that members of this forum may find interesting.

    It is January 1958 and you are the world’s biggest rock and roll fan. You are rushing to the newsagents to buy the latest edition of your favourite music paper. You absolutely must find out if Elvis has entered the charts at number 1 with ‘Jailhouse Rock’.

    Fast forward five years – its February 1963. The papers are reporting a musical earthquake. The Beatles are topping the charts for the first of many times with their second record, ‘Please Please Me’.

    Whether it was the ‘New Music Express’, ‘Melody Maker’, ‘Record Mirror’ or Disc Magazine, the story was that thesewere milestones in the history of pop music.

    On the radio, Sunday was chart day. Sunday at four always meant Alan freeman counting down the charts on ‘Pick of the Pops’ on the BBC. A few hours later, the tuning knob was turned to point to 208 to hear the Radio Luxembourg ‘Top Twenty’, presented by star broadcasters such as Keith Fordyce, Barry Alldis, David Gell or Paul Burnett.



    These music paper and radio charts have become lost in time, that is, until now.

    ‘The Pop Fans Charts Book’ lists every weekly music paper and broadcast chart side by side from January 1956 to the end of the 1960s.





    Amazon.co.uk : pop fans charts

    Leave a comment:


  • Germanicus
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    You are right Germanicus RR does not have EP'S in their chart. What has happened here is I have taken an average from the other charts and a2arded it to RR to compile the chart. Normally after I have done that I remove this average from the spreadsheet to prevent confusion but obviously I for got to do that for this week. I will correct that. Thanks for picking up on that oversight.

    Brian
    My Respects to you Mr Tibbs

    Your post in relation to The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined was very detailed and concise.

    I enjoyed following your narrative, as well as reading others discussing this topic ie; The Ultimate Averaged......
    I appreciate your response and happy to assist.

    Most respectfully

    Germanicus

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Pop Weekly did not do any RR-compensating calculations for EPs, and their significantly lower EP positions are a dead giveaway that their charts are not based on store returns.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    You are right Germanicus RR does not have EP'S in their chart. What has happened here is I have taken an average from the other charts and a2arded it to RR to compile the chart. Normally after I have done that I remove this average from the spreadsheet to prevent confusion but obviously I for got to do that for this week. I will correct that. Thanks for picking up on that oversight.

    Brian

    Leave a comment:


  • Germanicus
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 4th 1964 BBC NME RM MM Disc RR
    Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart
    Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30
    1 1 I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 1
    2 2 Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five 2 2 2 2 2
    3 3 She Loves You - The Beatles 3 3 3 3 3
    4 4 Dominique - The Singing Nun 6= 5 4 7 7
    7 5 I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield 5 4 7 5 6
    6 6 You Were Made For Me - Freddie and The Dreamers 4 8 5 4 4
    8 7 Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney 6= 6 6 6 5
    5 8 Secret Love - Kathy Kirby 8 7 8 8 9
    11 9 Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin 9 9 9 12 11
    21 10 Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans 10 9 12 10 13
    9 11 Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras 11 11 11 15 8
    14 12 I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones 13 12 10 16 15
    10 13 Don't Talk To Him - Cliff Richard 12 12 14 11 10
    12 14 Geronimo - The Shadows 15 14 13 20 12
    13 15 Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles 16 17 16 13 15
    16 16 You'll Never Walk Alone - Gerry and The Pacemakers 18 16 15 18 16
    15 17 Kiss Me Quick - Elvis Presley 17 15 19 14 14
    20 18 Chris Sandford - Not Too Little Not Too Much 19 22 18 19 18
    24 19 Stay - The Hollies 21 18 21 28 17
    17 20 The Beatles Hits (EP) - The Beatles 20 19 24 17 20
    18 21 I'll Keep You Satisfied - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas 22 23 20 21 21
    23 22 We Are In Love - Adam Faith 23 21 22 24 20
    29 23 Money - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen 24 26 17 19
    19 24 All I Want For Christmas Is A Beatle - Dora Bryan 25 27 23 27 24
    22 25 It's Almost Tomorrow - Mark Wynter 26 24 25 25 30
    26 26 Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury 28 25 29 22
    25 27 If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe 27 26 26 22
    27 28 I (Who Have Nothing) - Shirley Bassey 29 28 25
    NEW 29 What To Do - Buddy Holly 27 28
    NEW 30 At The Palace - Wilfrid Brambell and Harry H Corbett 30= 28 26
    Do You Hear What I Hear - Bing Crosby 30= 23
    Blue Bayou / Mean Woman Blues - Roy Orbison 23
    Country Boy - Heinz 29 27
    Hungry For Love - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates 30 30
    The Beatles No 1 (EP) - The Beatles 29
    From Russia With Love - Matt Monro 29
    I'm In Love - The Fourmost 30
    With The Beatles (LP) - The Beatles 20 9
    Hello Mr Tibbs

    In your post #7 The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 4th 1964

    https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...0#post10418390

    This is specific for the Record Retailer Column

    You have the following..................................................RR

    14 12 I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones........15
    13 15 Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles....................15

    17 20 The Beatles Hits (EP) - The Beatles...................20
    23 22 We Are In Love - Adam Faith..............................20

    I was not aware that Record Retailer included EP's in their Charts.

    Is this an oversight or can you share the reasoning please.

    The previous weeks charts does not include The Beatles EP's in The Record Retailer Charts

    #2720 Fri May 28, 2021, 04:10

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 28th 1963

    https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...0#post10633760

    The week after
    Week Ending January 11th 1964 does not include The Beatles EP's in The Record Retailer Charts

    #18 Wed June 17, 2020, 23:34

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 11th 1964

    https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...8#post10418798

    I am just curious. Not being critical as I can see this was a monumental effort. Well done.

    Your assistance would be greatfully appreciated.

    I enjoyed reading all your posts.

    Most respectfully

    Germanicus
    Last edited by Germanicus; Fri September 16, 2022, 21:01.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Well done Me Tibbs. There must have been a terrible moment when you thought your visit would be to no avail!

    Going back to the copyright issue mentioned a few posts ago ...

    If a composite chart is a breach of copyright then I don't understand how Pop Weekly was allowed to publish one for so long, albeit a week late. I assume their UK chart was compiled without permission of the contributory charts as, unlike on POTP, they were not mentioned.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    It sounds like you had a very fruitful visit to London MrTibbs. Also, it's possible that you could be the last person to be able to access some of those older volumes of Record Mirror. I'm looking forward to the thread!
    Yeah Robbie the Head Archivist confirmed that to me. He advised when I had finished with the volumes concerned that they will be filed as and I quote 'Unfit For Use. In Very Poor Condition' until such as a time they can be converted to Microfilm and that is likely to be years down the line due to the amount of documents awaiting this.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    It sounds like you had a very fruitful visit to London MrTibbs. Also, it's possible that you could be the last person to be able to access some of those older volumes of Record Mirror. I'm looking forward to the thread!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Morning All. Just to update you on progress with my next project.

    THE RECORD MIRROR CHARTS, REVISED, RE-CALCULATED AND FULLY EXTENDED.

    I have now returned from London armed with hours and hours of research into all Record Mirror's Charts from 1954 to 1961 enabling me to begin this long awaited project.
    I now have every one of Record Mirror's dealer charts in my possession amounting to over 1500 part pages taken from RM. I was lucky because I had great difficulty in accessing some of the old volumes because they are no longer available for viewing by the public due to their deteriorating and very fragile condition. I had to go to great lengths to prove the purpose of my research before the British Library reluctantly agreed me access and then only under the condition of strict supervised access.

    This research also allowed me to copy all RM's Album Charts too from 1956 through March 1962 when it adopted RR as its chart source.

    So hopefully tomorrow, or failing that Monday I will open a new thread and give a detailed introduction and outline about the project, methodology, background etc.

    I hope all of you who enjoyed the UAC will 'Like' and follow this new thread which will take Record Mirror's charts to a whole new level not seen before.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Magician View Post
    I have a question. I have done a similar work to yourself, (although by no means as accurate), in relation to the US Charts of the 60s. In the absence of definitive data re sample sizes etc, I utilised a method similar to that employed by the BBC. Although my method for eliminating ties was much more ruthless, I still had to tolerate some tied positions. I am thinking of putting my work into book form and selling it as an ebook. This is something you should seriously consider in respect of your own magnificent effort which I have been following with great interest. If we did publish books containing our average charts, would we be in breach of copyright? Could we be subject to legal action? Have you ever considered this point? Once again your work is to be commended.
    I have been asked a good few times Magician if I have plans to publish them in an ebook but not thought about it seriously yet to be honest. But who knows lol. I agree with kingofskiffle I too would like to see more of your charts in a thread and thanks too for your kind words of support for this thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Magician
    replied
    Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post
    I would encourage you to start a new thread with this, as it is a good idea. You can then gauge interest for a book, if thats what you ultimately want to do.
    I’ve taken preliminary legal advice. Apparently it wouldn’t be a breach of copyright so I’ll just give it some thought about how best to go about it. Not expecting floods of interest as this whole topic is something of a niche interest. The market would be limited. It would probably have to be an ebook for that reason. Apparently someone has already started a thread on the subject. I was more interested in the concept of putting the material into book form, hence commenting on this thread. I reiterate, the U.K. average chart compiled by Mr Tibbs would be of much more interest, my effort is more akin to the original BBC chart and probably just as prone to errors.

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    I would encourage you to start a new thread with this, as it is a good idea. You can then gauge interest for a book, if thats what you ultimately want to do.

    Leave a comment:


  • Magician
    replied
    As a taster, here is the US Average Top Twenty of sixty years ago. Yes I know this thread relates to the alternative to the POTP chart and I don’t propose to make a habit of it but there is a common thread and I would also encourage Mr Tibbs to put his work in book form.

    21 July 1962
    1 1 Roses Are Red (My Love) Bobby Vinton
    2 4 The Wah Watusi The Orlons
    3 3 I Can't Stop Loving You Ray Charles
    4 2 The Stripper David Rose and His Orchestra
    5 6 Sealed With A Kiss Brian Hyland
    6 5 Wolverton Mountain Claude King
    7 11 Speedy Gonzales Pat Boone
    8 10 Gravy (For My Mashed Potatoes) Dee Dee Sharp
    9 16 Ahab, The Arab Ray Stevens
    10 19 Breaking Up Is Hard To Do Neil Sedaka
    11 12 Johnny Get Angry Joanie Sommers
    12 7 Palisades Park Freddy Cannon
    13 9 Al Di La' Emilio Pericoli
    14 14 Theme From Dr. Kildare (Three Stars Will Shine Tonight) Richard Chamberlain
    15 8 It Keeps Right On A-Hurtin' Johnny Tillotson
    16 17 Having A Party Sam Cooke
    17 Dancin' Party Chubby Checker
    18 Twist And Shout The Isley Brothers
    19 You'll Lose A Good Thing Barbara Lynn
    20 20 I'll Never Dance Again Bobby Rydell

    Leave a comment:


  • Magician
    replied
    Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post

    Several books exist on Amazon utilising data from the UK charts, both with and without the official charts company guidance. I would suggest that using the entire NME chart as is may be liable to copyright, but simply stating you used it would be fine. The records themselves are not subject to copyright as far as titles, etc go - unless you include images of the artwork. My view, am not a trained lawyer and this is not legal advice.
    I used Billboard, Cashbox and Music Vendor/Record World, allocated chart points in the same way that they did to compile the BBC chart so the end product looks nothing like the source charts. The differences between the charts was much greater in some cases than the source charts for the BBC charts. It would be interesting to see how anyone could file a copyright claim but the ingenuity of the legal profession means one must exercise an abundance of caution. I wouldn’t for example do as Mr Tibbs has done and quote the data from the source charts. I wonder who has copyright for the BBC Chart.

    Leave a comment:

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