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For those who can't wait to find out I now know who finally took the throne on the infamous chart of 31st August 1968 Ha Ha !
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To The Definitive Music Paper Chart -
Record Retailer ended it's EP chart that same week. This allowed the new Beatles double EP to enter the Record Retailer singles chart. The first EP to do so. The EP was released the week the final chart was published. I suspect EMI might have waited for them to close the chart down. It was clearly on the cards as it had remained static for the last few months with no records entering for a long time.Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!Comment
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I find it strange how the EP market suddenly declined around the mid 60s. At one time it was a lot more vibrant than the LP market, and with stronger sellers. Did the public really just lose interest overnight or did labels decide they wanted to phase them out in favour of the more profitable album?Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
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Mr Tibbs you must carry on with this wonderful project. I can quite understand why you did not include the Music Echo charts to December ‘65 with their small samples (a decision echoed by the BBC), but it would have provided a good laugh with their position disparity of up 20-30 places on some records compared to all other papers.
Can I take it that you will exclude Top Pops/Music Now charts from 1968 on the basis of small samples (but big shops?)?
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We discussed this on the P/TOTP thread and, like Graham, I think it should have been the Bee Gees and that this is one of the times when MM got it wrong.Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
What cannot be disputed is that the Bee Gees were heading for number one, so it just a question of when they arrived. Also undisputed is that the 'Top Pops' chart had the Bee Gees at number one this week.
Dave Taylor also has a couple of interesting comments about this week. First he says that RR originally had a tie between the Beach Boys and The Bee Gees. I find this difficult to believe because (if I understand the RR tiebreak procedure correctly) they would have broken the tie in favour of the Bee Gees.
But the other thing Dave Taylor says is highly plausible. This is that NME incorrectly applied points to Tom Jones that should have gone to Tommy James. This looks likely because NME putting Tom Jones at number one looks out of kilter considering that the other charts put him at number 5. Dave says that if they had not made this mistake NME would also have put the Bee Gees at number one.
I am not at all suggesting that we should trust this claim enough to change the NME positions, but it is a contributory factor in my personal resolution of the infamous 3-way tie.Last edited by Splodj; Sun November 1, 2020, 16:01.Comment
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From what I gather the EP was not intended at the start to have more tracks on the same size of plastic as a single, but to have a full piece of classical music on one side. But they started to be marketed as "mini albums". However to get the tracks on meant a loss in quality. If you put an EP on a hi-fi system and afterwards put on a standard single. Then the single will blast you out! Being much louder than any EP. So the LP which could give the length and keep the quality of sound was much better than the EP. As stereo hi-fi systems grew more popular the pitfalls of the EP became more known and they lost ground. Many EP also became novelty records, or for films, opera and classical pieces. Plus children's TV shows for example: Thunderbirds, Capitan Scarlet and Stingray all had EP's with episodes on them.Originally posted by Robbie View Post
Even that Beatles EP was linked to the Magical Mystery Tour film and "fun" novelty tracks on them. I suspect the Beatles did it rather than spend a great deal of time in the studio doing a new album, since after Sargent Pepper they knew they couldn't just throw together a collection of tracks together and make an album that way. The critics would have had them for breakfast if they did that!
If you were going to make serious money and the best quality music an LP became the way to do it. The EP was just a gimmick in that respect.Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!Comment
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Thanks membrane for that encouragement and yes I will be sticking with this project that so many enjoy.
I will not be including any of the smaller charts in the sample for any years you will be glad to know, and will continue to stick with the major charts only as the others are just transient for a short time and I want to keep consistency throughout.
For the record, Herb Alpert will take top billing on August 31st. Even allowing for the Bee Gees to hold joint #1 on RR that week as Dave suggested, which has never been corroborated, it will still not give it sufficient points to overtake Herb.
Yes, I too have heard of the alleged mix up at NME but we have what we have historically to go on and thus Herb is1, Bee Gees 2, and Beach Boys 3. Remember as things stood the Bee Gees were not factually at #1 on any of the three charts that week, Tom Jones was never in the running irregardless of a possible mix up, But the consolation is that the Bee Gees will go to #1 on Sept 7th.
I'm working on September 1968 now so am only a few months away compilation wise from going back to do 1960 to 1963 and for the very first time will be including the RR and RM charts into the averaged figures as for a spell between 60 and 62 these were both omitted by the BBC so the averaged chart might reflect even more differences between it and the BBC chart.
Last edited by MrTibbs; Sun November 1, 2020, 18:17. To The Definitive Music Paper ChartComment
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The film of the Beatles singing "Hello, Goodbye" (coma correctly inserted between the two words), the one in the Sargent Pepper clothes, was banned from TOTP, not for the usual reasons, but because the Musician's Union wouldn't except it because they were miming on the film.
Meanwhile Scott Walker's new single was banned after Radio Two listeners objected to it after a few plays on the radio. The BBC called it a "nasty song". It was a translation of a French song which contained the words "queers, brothels and virgins". Disc and Music Echo (9 Dec) reported that even the title was controversial. It should have been "Jacky". All the scheduled TV appearances of Scott singing the song were also pulled as a result. The ban (not a complete one) pushed the record into the top five.Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!Comment
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The ban on miming had been in effect for some time. Earlier in the year Disc and Music Echo interviewed the director of the Strawberry Fields Forever and Penny Lane videos, who complained that he had wanted the Beatles to mime the songs but had been told that if they did the videos could not be shown on TOTP.
Simon Dee was sacked from Radio 1 for playing Jackie on Midday Spin.Last edited by Splodj; Mon November 2, 2020, 12:08.Comment
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The Top Ten Best Sellers of 1967
1 Engelbert Humperdinck - Release Me
2 Engelbert Humperdinck - The Last Waltz
3 Sandie Shaw - Puppet On A String
4 Procol Harum - A Whiter Shade of Pale
5 The Beatles - Penny Lane / Strawberry Fields Forever
6 The Beatles - Hello, Goodbye
7 Scott McKenzie - San Francisco (Be Sure To Wear Some Flowers In Your Hair)
8 The Monkees - I'm A Believer / (I'm Not Your) Stepping Stone
9 Engelbert Humperdinck - There Goes My Everything
10 The Bee Gees - Massachusetts (The Lights Went Out In)
Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!Comment
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I thought it was this ...
1 Engelbert Humperdinck - Release Me
2 Engelbert Humperdinck - The Last Waltz
3 Englebert Humperdinck - There Goes My Everything
4 The Monkees - I'm A Believer
5 Procol Harum - A Whiter Shade Of Pale
6 Sandie Shaw - Puppet On A String
7 The Beatles - All You Need Is Love
8 Petula Clark - This Is My Song
9 The Beatles - Penny Lane / Strawberry Fields Forever
10 Frank and Nancy Sinatra - Somethin' StupidComment
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Greetings Pop Pickers !
In come The Four Tops with the superlative Walk Away Renee. Pure Ear Candy.
There are 12 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.
Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 16th 1967.
The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 16th 1967 NME MM RR Total Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored 1 1 Hello Goodbye - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 16050 2 2 Let The Heartaches Begin - Long John Baldry 2 2 2 3 15430 3 3 Everybody Knows - The Dave Clark Five 3 4 4 2 14615 4 4 If The Whole World Stopped Lovin' - Val Doonican 4 5 3 4 14495 5 5 Something's Gotten Hold Of My Heart - Gene Pitney 5 3 6 6 13975 6 6 Careless Hands - Des O'Connor 6 6 5 7 13540 7 7 I'm Coming Home - Tom Jones 7 7 7 5 13010 9 8 World - The Bee Gees 8 8 8 9 12220 8 9 All My Love - Cliff Richard 9 9 10 11 11350 15 10 Thank U Very Much - The Scaffold 10 12 9 10 11085 13 11 Daydream Believer - The Monkees 11 11 12 13 10280 10 12 The Last Waltz - Engelbert Humperdinck 14 13 11 16 9875 19 13 Here We Go Round The Mulberry Bush - Traffic 12 14 15 8 9355 18 14 Kites - Simon Dupree and The Big Sound 13 15 13 12 9315 NEW 15 Magical Mystery Tour (EP) - The Beatles 16 10 17 20 8635 11 16 Love Is All Around - The Troggs 15 16 14 15 8610 12 17 Baby Now That I've Found You - The Foundations 17 17 16 17 7740 14 18 I Feel Coming On - Felice Taylor 18 19 18 14 7095 24 19 In And Out Of Love - Diana Ross and The Supremes 19 18 19 18 6705 22 20 There Must Be A Way - Frankie Vaughan 20 22 21 19 5320 16 21 Zabadak - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 22 21 20 4750 NEW 22 Walk Away Renee - The Four Tops 21 20 27 25 3710 17 23 There Is A Mountain - Donovan 23 27 23 22 3565 21 24 So Tired - Frankie Vaughan 24 28 22 24 3445 29 25 Tin Soldier - The Small Faces 26 23 26 29 3020 25 26 Big Spender - Shirley Bassey 25 29 25 21 2750 20 27 Autumn Almanac - The Kinks 27 30 24 28 2205 30 28 Jackie - Scott Walker 28 24 28 2150 NEW 29 Susannah's Still Alive - Dave Davies 30 24 1400 NEW 30 The Ballad Of Bonnie And Clyde - Georgie Fame 26 1000 Massachusetts - The Bee Gees 29 23 680 Wild Honey - The Beach Boys 29 500 I Can See For Miles - The Who 26 425 Just Loving You - Anita Harris 27 340 Soul Man - Sam and Dave 30 30 335
To The Definitive Music Paper ChartComment
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According to the Top Ten of Music (1993) the top singles of 1967 were,
1 Engelbert Humperdinck - Release Me
2 Engelbert Humperdinck - The Last Waltz
3 Englebert Humperdinck - There Goes My Everything
4 The Beatles - Hello Goodbye
5 The Monkees - I'm A Believer
6 Procol Harum - A Whiter Shade Of Pale
7 Sandie Shaw - Puppet On A String
8 The Beatles - Magical Mystery Tour (Double EP)
9 The Beatles - All You Need Is Love
10 Petula Clark - This Is My Song
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Since there were no charts at the time actually counting record sales this was either made up from points, or based on shipping figures. Including sales from 1968. It's highly unlikely the EP would have sold enough to make the top ten of the year in about 3 weeks! It wasn't even number one (officially).
It doesn't even make the top 100 of the year on the same chart.
You can see the full charts from 1967 and the best sellers over over 220 that sold 250K from Thursday night on my blog.
And there seem to be competing lists of even "official figures" as Splodj list is not the same.
However even my list is also based on sales inside the top 100 charts and takes no account of the sales outside them. Which were as high as 6K at times.
Based on Brian's 535 shops if they all sold 30 copies each of the number one that would by 16,050 sold. So 6,000 divided by 8,000 shops is actually zero copies sold by any shops. Well it's 0.75 of a copy, but I don't believe anyone bought three quarters of a record. But I could be wrong!!
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Greetings Pop Pickers !
There are a massive16 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.
Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 23rd 1967.
The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 23rd 1967 NME MM RR Total Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored 1 1 Hello Goodbye - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 16050 4 2 If The Whole World Stopped Lovin' - Val Doonican 2 2 2 4 15345 2 3 Let The Heartaches Begin - Long John Baldry 4 3 4 6 14475 7 4 I'm Coming Home - Tom Jones 3 5 5 2 14165 5 5 Something's Gotten Hold Of My Heart - Gene Pitney 5 4 6 5 13860 6 6 Careless Hands - Des O'Connor 6 6 3 11 13700 15 7 Magical Mystery Tour (EP) - The Beatles 7 8 10 3 12230 3 8 Everybody Knows - The Dave Clark Five 9 7 8 13 12080 8 9 World - The Bee Gees 10 9 7 14 11845 10 10 Thank U Very Much - Scaffold 8 10 9 9 11570 14 11 Kites - Simon Dupree and The Big Sound 13 11 11 15 10360 11 12 Daydream Believer - The Monkees 11 13 12 8 10305 9 13 All My Love - Cliff Richard 12 12 15 7 9840 13 14 Here We Go Round The Mulberry Bush - Traffic 14 16 13 10 9285 12 15 The Last Waltz - Engelbert Humperdinck 15 17 14 12 8665 22 16 Walk Away Renee - The Four Tops 16 14 16 16 8425 19 17 In And Out Of Love - Diana Ross and The Supremes 17 15 17 17 7890 16 18 Love Is All Around - The Troggs 20 20 18 25 5960 25 19 Tin Soldier - The Small Faces 18 22 20 18 5655 18 20 I Feel Love Coming On - Felice Taylor 19 23 19 19 5620 17 21 Baby Now That I've Found You - The Foundations 21 21 23 23 4680 20 22 There Must be A Way - Frankie Vaughan 22 25 22 20 4385 30 23 The Ballad Of Bonnie And Clyde - Georgie Fame 23 18 29 22 3865 28 24 Jackie - Scott Walker 25 19 27 29 3570 24 25 So Tired - Frankie Vaughan 24 21 21 3350 26 26 Big Spender - Shirley Bassey 26 27 24 24 3145 21 27 Zabadak - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 27 24 28 2150 23 28 There Is A Mountain - Donovan 29 29 25 1900 29 29 Susannah's Still Alive - Dave Davies 28 26 27 1340 RE 30 Soul Man - Sam and Dave 26 1250 The Other Man's Grass - Petula Clark 30 28 28 855 Autumn Almanac - The Kinks 30 30 450 I Only Live To Love You - Cilla Black 26 425 La Derniere Valse - Mireille Mathieu 30 85 To The Definitive Music Paper ChartComment
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A question to anyone who was buying singles at the time: how much more expensive would the price of 'Magical Mystery Tour' EP have been compared to the price of a standard single?
It's also interesting to see how much better the EP is performing on the Record Retailer chart when compared to the other two charts.Comment
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To Graham76man, how come you can comment but I can't? That facility is turned off for me.
It depends when the top selling lists end - a cut-off date of 31st December or whether sales are included for the following year as well. It then becomes a list of the best-selling records issued in a given year. That could explain the difference in these lists. Some of course were points based.
As for MMT EP - By the date of release, it had advance orders of 400,000 and 600,000 had been shipped by mid-January 1968. [see The Long And Winding Road book]. [The Rock Lists Album] top 100 of the sixties had the EP at number 50. So final sales could be around 750,000 by 1993.Comment
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Don't know why? I don't think it's a paid member thing. Could be your browser. If it's not a paid member thing, or you are a paid member, post on the help thread saying you can't comment.
I had the EP clocking up sales of 379K, but there was a sales reduction the week before Christmas overall. Could have been a weather issue affecting sales, or something else.
Point based best seller lists have the problem of single sales overall sales. The points for a number one remain the same. The sales of records do not stay the same. You can sell 600K one week then next week 100K.
Incidentally Hello, Goodbye I believe suffered from poor distribution. EMI couldn't get over 300K to the shops after the second week at the top. They were only managing three quarters of it.
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Singles were 6 shillings and 8 old pence (£0.33) while the EP was 19 shilling and 6 old pence (£0.98). The EP was that price because it included a 32 page book and 4 pages of lyrics. A normal EP was 10 shillings and 6 old pence (£0.53).
The imported MMT LP was 47 shillings and 6 old pence (£2.38).Last edited by brian05; Tue November 3, 2020, 10:56.Comment
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Yes I think the 'Top Ten of Music (1993)' is based on the total sales of records released in 1967, whereas my list is sales within 1967. They are compatible with each other, just that the former has Hello Goodbye and Magical Mystery Tour appearing - caused by the significant sales of both after December 1967.Last edited by Splodj; Tue November 3, 2020, 14:21.Comment
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Wayne from HelpDesk said,
I turned this feature off a few weeks ago - only moderation team members should be able to "Comment" now.
Graham76man - I did not know you were a moderator!! Congratulations.Comment
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What is the rationale behind only moderators being allowed to comment? Are their comments deemed to be more worthy, or are they supposed to confine their comments strictly to matters of moderation?Comment
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I find The Top Ten Of Music really useful and lots of its bestseller lists credible, however, some of its lists do seem to incorporate sales in the top ten split between the two years, and others don't. A few records listed in the top ten in a few lists do raise my eyebrows as well, as do some of the omissions.
I honestly believe that ANY list of bestselling singles of the fifties, sixties and early seventies is highly suspect as accurate sales data is notably sketchy at best for many records.
To The Definitive Music Paper ChartComment
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Greetings Pop Pickers !
MM did not compile a chart for this week and neither did the BBC, so the chart this week is based on NME and RR.
Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 30th 1967.
The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 30th 1967 NME MM RR Total Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored 1 1 Hello Goodbye - The Beatles 1 1 8550 7 2 Magical Mystery Tour (EP) - The Beatles 2 2 8265 2 3 If The Whole World Stopped Lovin' - Val Doonican 3 4 7895 4 4 I'm Coming Home - Tom Jones 4 3 7780 6 5 Careless Hands - Des O'Connor 5 11 6900 12 6 Daydream Believer - The Monkees 7 7 6840 16 7 Walk Away Renee - The Four Tops 6 10 6785 5 8 Something's Gotten Hold Of My Heart - Gene Pitney 9 5 6610 10 9 Thank U Very Much - The Scaffold 8 9 6470 3 10 Let The Heartaches Begin - Long John Baldry 12 8 5755 9 11 World - The Bee Gees 11 15 5360 23 12 The Ballad Of Bonnie And Clyde - Georgie Fame 10 18 5305 11 13 Kites - Simon Dupree and The Big Sound 13 14 5045 8 14 Everybody Knows - The Dave Clark Five 14 16 4675 14 15 Here We Go Round The Mulberry Bush - Traffic 16 12 4615 13 16 All My Love - Cliff Richard 19 6 4525 17 17 In And Out Of Love - Diana Ross and The Supremes 15 17 4390 15 18 The Last Waltz - Engelbert Humperdinck 17 13 4330 19 19 Tin Soldier - The Small Faces 20 19 3220 24 20 Jackie - Scott Walker 18 28 2855 NEW 21 The Other Man's Grass - Petula Clark 22 24 2395 18 22 Love Is All Around - The Troggs 21 27 2340 22 23 There Must Be A Way - Frankie Vaughan 24 20 2335 20 24 I Feel Love Coming On - Felice Taylor 25 21 2050 26 25 Big Spender - Shirley Bassey 26 22 1765 29 26 Susannah's Still Alive - Dave Davies 23 30 1685 21 27 Baby Now That I've Found You - The Foundations 27 25 1310 25 28 So Tired - Frankie Vaughan 23 680 27 29 Zabadak - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 28 600 NEW 30 La Derniere Valse - Mireille Mathieu 26 425 Neither MM or The BBC compiled a chart for 30th December. So The Ultimate Averaged Chart was compiled from NME and RR. 0 There Is A Mountain - Donovan 29 400 Autumn Almanac - The Kinks 30 200 I Only Live To Love You - Cilla Black 29 170
To The Definitive Music Paper ChartComment
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Before I continue into 1968 here is my usual end of year list of non charting injustices, the records which were criminally ignored in 1967 and should (in my humble opinion) have charted here in the UK.
Buckinghams - Kind Of A Drag
Doors - Light My Fire
Ed Ames - My Cup Runneth Over
Lulu - Best Of Both Worlds and To Sir With Love (should have been singles here too)
P.P. Arnold - The Time Has Come (how the he** did this manage to miss out)
Peter Paul and Mary - I Dig Rock And Roll Music
Spanky and Our Gang - Sunday Will Never Be The Same
Union Gap - Woman Woman
Ah well ! 1968 next.
Brian.
To The Definitive Music Paper ChartComment
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Greetings Pop Pickers !
Here we go ! Onward and Upward into 1968
There are 18 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart
Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 6th 1968
The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 6th 1968 NME MM RR Total Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored 1 1 Hello Goodbye - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 16050 2 2 Magical Mystery Tour (EP) - The Beatles 2 2 4 2 15015 3 3 If The Whole World Stopped Lovin' - Val Doonican 4 3 2 8 14805 4 4 I'm Coming Home - Tom Jones 3 4 3 3 14780 9 5 Thank U Very Much - The Scaffold 6 7 5 4 13595 6 6 Daydream Believer - The Monkees 6 5 6 6 13575 8 7 Something's Gotten Hold Of My Heart - Gene Pitney 8 8 7 7 12640 7 8 Walk Away Renee - The Four Tops 7 6 11 5 12210 11 9 World - The Bee Gees 9 9 10 12 11265 5 10 Careless Hands - Des O'Connor 11 10 9 14 11145 13 11 Kites - Simon Dupree and The Big Sound 10 11 12 9 10620 10 12 Let The Heartaches Begin - Long John Baldry 13 14 8 15 10510 12 13 The Ballad Of Bonnie And Clyde - Georgie Fame 12 12 14 10 9835 15 14 Here We Go Round The Mulberry Bush - Traffic 14 13 16 11 9050 14 15 Everybody Knows - The Dave Clark Five 15 16 13 17 8690 16 16 All My Love - Cliff Richard 18 15 17 18 7805 18 17 The Last Waltz - Engelbert Humperdinck 19 19 15 16 7675 17 18 In And Out Of Love - Diana Ross and The Supremes 16 17 18 13 7580 21 19 The Other Man's Grass - Petula Clark 17 18 20 21 6200 19 20 Tin Soldier - The Small Faces 20 22 19 19 5820 22 21 Love Is All Around - The Troggs 23 23 22 26 4275 20 22 Jackie - Scott Walker 21 21 26 22 4015 25 23 Big Spender - Shirley Bassey 24 27 21 24 3895 23 24 There Must Be A Way - Frankie Vaughan 26 24 24 30 3235 24 25 I Feel Love Coming On - Felice Taylor 25 25 25 25 3210 26 26 Susannah's Still Alive - Dave Davies 22 20 20 3135 28 27 So Tired - Frankie Vaughan 27 23 27 2340 NEW 28 Paradise Lost - The Herd 28 28 23 1430 RE 29 Soul Man - Sam and Dave 29 27 28 1255 27 30 Baby Now That I've Found You - The Foundations 30 26 1000 Zabadak - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 28 30 850 I Only Live To Love You - Cilla Black 29 29 670 There Is A Mountain - Donovan 29 400 Chain Of Fools - Aretha Franklin 30 200 To The Definitive Music Paper ChartComment
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Magical Mystery Tour moves in mysterious ways in the MM charts. After climbing more slowly, it is about to take a leap ...Comment
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