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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • see across the charts there was no way their record could possibly be #1 as it did not hold that position on any one individual chart, being 2, 3, and 2. It was a fluke because of BBC methodology based solely on counting points that it was given that enviable position.
    The Beach Boys fall behind the Bee Gees so #1 was never really theirs either. So that leaves Herb Alpert as the outright winner for that week.
    Of course in reality both the Bee Gees an Beach Boys did get to the top, The Beach Boys the Week before and the Bee Gees the week you claimed they never did it!
    Only Herb Alpert wasn't top!

    My memory of WH Smith at this time was that they had the Top 20 in a special display rack. I imagine this was to make purchasing easier, as you could put your favourite record in the basket with whatever else you were buying, and to encourage impulse buying. I wonder if it was the Top Pops chart that they used for the display.
    None of the WH Smith shops contributed to the charts at that time. So if you bought records from them you made no difference to the published charts of the time. Ironically things haven't changed much, as if you stream a record today you have no effect on the charts, no matter how many times you do it. But if you buy a download you do!

    Also, I mentioned a few posts back that two classic records still to chart in 1968 should have been #1's as they stand out as classics to this day.
    Into the chart this week comes the first of the two, the brilliant haunting Jesamine by The Casuals. Oh the injustice !
    You should believe in the Real Chart more. That makes Number One 13 Oct (week ending 19 Oct). Plus Ultravox did get to number one
    Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

    Comment


    • Greetings Pop Pickers !

      The Bee Gees enjoy their week of glory this week as Herb Alpert relinquishes his. The Beach Boys have to be satisfied with a #2 hit but it's still the sound of summer 1968 along with Tommy James.
      Apple records launch and propel both The Beatles with one of their best ever, and Paul McCartney produced Mary Hopkin onto the chart both heading for #1. Ironically Mary will both dethrone The Beatles from the top spot and deny The Casuals the prize. They will be held at #2 for two weeks by her.

      There are 16 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

      Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 7th 1968.

      The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 7th 1968 NME MM RR Total
      Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
      Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
      2 1 I've Gotta Get A Message To You - The Bee Gees 1 1 3 1 15550
      3 2 Do It Again - The Beach Boys 2 2 2 2 15515
      1 3 This Guy's In Love With You - Herb Alpert 3 4 4 3 14530
      7 4 I Say A Little Prayer - Aretha Franklin 4 5 5 4 13995
      NEW 5 Hey Jude - The Beatles 8 3 1 21 13950
      8 6 High In The Sky - Amen Corner 5 7 6 6 13175
      4 7 Help Yourself - Tom Jones 6 6 8 5 12960
      12 8 Hold Me Tight - Johnny Nash 7 8 7 7 12640
      14 9 On The Road Again - Canned Heat 9 10 9 10 11485
      5 10 Mony Mony - Tommy James and The Shondells 10 9 11 9 11270
      9 11 Sunshine Girl - Herman's Hermits 12 11 10 11 10950
      6 12 Fire - The Crazy World Of Arthur Brown 11 12 12 8 10505
      11 13 Dance To The Music - Sly and The Family Stone 13 12 13 13 9830
      18 14 Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Mama Cass 14 14 14 14 9095
      13 15 Keep On - Bruce Channel 15 16 15 12 8615
      15 16 I Pretend - Des O'Connor 16 15 16 16 8225
      22 17 Lady Willpower - Gary Puckett and The Union Gap 17 17 17 15 7660
      10 18 I Close My Eyes And Count To Ten - Dusty Springfield 18 19 19 17 6590
      17 19 Days - The Kinks 19 21 18 19 6270
      25 20 Jesamine - The Casuals 20= 20 20 22 5715
      20 21 Hard To Handle - Otis Redding 20= 22 22 18 5155
      NEW 22 Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin 23 18 23 4600
      NEW 23 Little Arrows - Leapy Lee 22 23 27 20 3535
      16 24 Mrs. Robinson - Simon and Garfunkel 24 30 21 23 3380
      23 25 Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Anita Harris 26 25 25 2700
      21 26 Your Time Hasn't Come Yet Baby - Elvis Presley 25 26 28 24 2345
      27 27 America - The Nice 29 24 28 2005
      29 28 Voices In The Sky - The Moody Blues 27 24 27 1740
      NEW 29 Ice In The Sun - Status Quo 28 27 30 26 1475
      24 30 The Universal - The Small Faces 26 30 1335
      Eleanor Rigby - Ray Charles 28 600
      Last Night In Soho - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 30 25 510
      Classical Gas - Mason Williams 29 500
      Laurel And Hardy - The Equals 29 400
      Yesterday's Dreams - The Four Tops 29 170

      Comment


      • New entry 'Ice In The Sun', like 'Jesamine', co-written by Marty Wilde and Ronnie Scott.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
          Splodj said: My memory of WH Smith at this time was that they had the Top 20 in a special display rack. I imagine this was to make purchasing easier, as you could put your favourite record in the basket with whatever else you were buying, and to encourage impulse buying. I wonder if it was the Top Pops chart that they used for the display.

          Graham76man said: None of the WH Smith shops contributed to the charts at that time. So if you bought records from them you made no difference to the published charts of the time. Ironically things haven't changed much, as if you stream a record today you have no effect on the charts, no matter how many times you do it. But if you buy a download you do!
          Alan Smith said in his 50s 60s Chart History article, in discussing the Top Pops/Music Now chart:

          "The first chart appeared in issue 23 dated 25 May 1968. Two issues later date 22 June 1968 both paper and chart became weekly."

          So to clarify, WH Smith was not contributing to NME, MM, RR, or BBC charts, but they were indeed contributing to Top Pops/Music Now, they were the ONLY contributor to this chart. And it was published this week of 31 Aug 1968. And WH Smith could have indeed had those TP/MN charts in their record departments at this time.

          Comment


          • I bought most of my records from 1964 until the early seventies in one of the two record shops in my hometown Lanark, Darroch's and W. H. Smith's (or Menzies as it was called in Scotland). That branch posted the RR chart in the record department. I used to hot foot it from Lanark Grammar School at lunch time on a Thursday to study the new chart on the wall. Little did I know then it was the least reliable of all the charts at the time.

            Comment


            • By now both Billboard and Cashbox had gone over to using RR for their UK charts. Perhaps they were the cheapest!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                By now both Billboard and Cashbox had gone over to using RR for their UK charts. Perhaps they were the cheapest!
                Billboard Publications were the owners of Record Retailer by this point. Indeed it was Billboard who changed the name of RR to Music Week in 1971. Music Week had been the name of a Billboard owned US publication in the early 1960s (I believe it ceased publication in the mid 1960s) so I assume Billboard were still keen to utilise the name at some point.

                Alan Smith wrote an excellent article about the history of Record Retailer to the 1970s which can be found at https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...he-early-1970s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post

                  Alan Smith said in his 50s 60s Chart History article, in discussing the Top Pops/Music Now chart:

                  "The first chart appeared in issue 23 dated 25 May 1968. Two issues later date 22 June 1968 both paper and chart became weekly."

                  So to clarify, WH Smith was not contributing to NME, MM, RR, or BBC charts, but they were indeed contributing to Top Pops/Music Now, they were the ONLY contributor to this chart. And it was published this week of 31 Aug 1968. And WH Smith could have indeed had those TP/MN charts in their record departments at this time.
                  In which case with WH Smith being only the only source of sales. It was simply a store based chart. Apart from the top tens published in Record Mirror, would that make it the first store based chart I wonder?

                  I am curious as to why the TP/MN wasn't added to the BBC calculation of charts? Was it because it wasn't available to the public, was it a trade paper? RR chart of course could be seen in Record Mirror making it public. I saw TP/MN mentioned in a Record Business survey asking Retailers which charts they trusted, thus implying it was trade only like Music Week and RB.

                  Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                  Comment


                  • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                    There are 12 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

                    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 14th 1968.

                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 14th 1968 NME MM RR Total
                    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
                    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                    5 1 Hey Jude - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 16050
                    1 2 I've Gotta Get A Message To You - The Bee Gees 2 2 2 2 15515
                    2 3 Do It Again - The Beach Boys 3 3 3 3 14980
                    4 4 I Say A Little Prayer - Aretha Franklin 4 4 5 4 14195
                    8 5 Hold Me Tight - Johnny Nash 5 5 4 5 14160
                    6 6 High In The Sky - Amen Corner 8 7 6 9 12920
                    22 7 Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin 6 6 8 7 12790
                    3 8 This Guy's In Love With You - Herb Alpert 7 8 7 6 12725
                    7 9 Help Yourself - Tom Jones 9 10 9 8 11655
                    9 10 On The Road Again - Canned Heat 10 9 10 10 11435
                    14 11 Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Mama Cass 11 11 12 11 10450
                    20 12 Jesamine - The Casuals 12 12 11 12 10415
                    17 13 Lady Willpower - Gary Puckett and The Union Gap 13 13 14 13 9380
                    11 14 Sunshine Girl - Herman's Hermits 14 14 13 16 9175
                    10 15 Mony Mony - Tommy James and The Shondells 15 15 15 14 8645
                    13 16 Dance To The Music - Sly and The Family Stone 18 17 17 20 7235
                    12 17 Fire - The Crazy World Of Arthur Brown 16 19 18 15 7010
                    23 18 Little Arrows - Leapy Lee 17 16 20 17 6940
                    16 19 I Pretend - Des O'Connor 19 22 16 18 6655
                    21 20 Hard To Handle - Otis Redding 20 18 21 19 6120
                    15 21 Keep On - Bruce Channel 21 20 19 21 6050
                    18 22 I Close My Eyes And Count To Ten - Dusty Springfield 23 24 22 23 4330
                    29 23 Ice In The Sun - Status Quo 22 21 26 22 4015
                    NEW 24 Classical Gas - Mason Williams 24 26 24 25 3260
                    27 25 America - The Nice 25 25 25 26 3125
                    25 26 Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Anita Harris 27 23 27 2600
                    19 27 Days - The Kinks 26 23 24 2595
                    28 28 Voices In The Sky - The Moody Blues 28 27 27 1140
                    NEW 29 I Live For The Sun - Vanity Fare 29 29 30 28 905
                    24 30 Mrs. Robinson - Simon and Garfunkel 28 30 835
                    Yesterday's Dreams - The Four Tops 30 29 29 670
                    Need Your Love So Bad - Fleetwood Mac 28 600
                    Hello I Love You - The Doors 30 200
                    C'Mon Marianne - Grapefruit 30 200

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
                      I am curious as to why the TP/MN wasn't added to the BBC calculation of charts? Was it because it wasn't available to the public, was it a trade paper?
                      Top Pops was available to the public, but so was Music Echo. I can see why the BBC did not think it 'major' enough to be included on a general basis, but I think there is an argument that it could have been used as a tiebreaker for that particular week.

                      I humbly disagree with Brian that if the three major charts each had a different number one, it is necessary that one of those three number ones be top of a composite chart. I think it is a sign that they could all be wrong and that you need to look closely at the runners up. After all this is the principle on which each chart company themselves operated; if three shops disagreed about what what top-selling but they all agreed about number two that record would get the most points.

                      Interesting to see that two of the contenders - Herb Alpert and Tom Jones - have fallen away faster than the other two.
                      Last edited by Splodj; Mon November 23, 2020, 10:11.

                      Comment


                      • I know that a number of you believed (and wanted) that The Bee Gees taking #1 on 31st August should have been the case, but the record store returns did not uphold that as the case when breaking the tie made by just points and no record which never reached #1 on any major chart can realistically be a credible #1, Top Pops chart was compiled from a smaller sample than even RR.

                        The fact that it is most likely that Herb Alpert did take the top slot that week is further supported by Dave Taylor.
                        Dave had hard copies of charts compiled by EMI between 1957 and 1978. EMI compiled a chart similar to the BBC but also included and I quote Dave '' a sales sweep of up to 50 shops and therefore did not have tied positions''.

                        In Popscene on 6th September 2011 Dave posted a list of all the averaged No 1 singles comparing the BBC chart to EMI's with the sales tie breaker in place. Herb Alpert was listed as #1 on the EMI chart.
                        Here is what Dave published in this report on Popscene about the tie on 31st August 1968 using the EMI chart as evidence.

                        ''this is the big one and settles the BBC joint number one where BBC had Herb in a tie with The Bee Gees and The Beach Boys. The Bee Gees couldn't of been top this week because they were not #1 on any other chart, and The Beach Boys were a Record Retailer #1 so 85 shops to over 600 couldn't be right. Another chart mag of the time Top Pops magazine had The Bee Gees on top this week. Top Pops itself was a teen mag that made a chart from 12 branches of W H Smith''.

                        This full 13 page article of Dave's covering that and all the other #1's between 1957 and 1978 makes for interesting reading.

                        Comment


                        • He then adds:

                          "NOTE: Since I put this list together, evidence seems to suggest that Record Retailer actually had a unlisted joint number one on 31st Aug 68, with both the Beach Boys & the Bee Gees. Which changes things a bit, because it means that the BBC average, should of showed the Bee Gees as sole number one, with Herb & the Beach Boys at joint #2. With EMI, a change to the Bee Gees at the top also, but Herb at #2 & the Beach Boys at #3."

                          As explained, I don't agree that RR did this, but it is only fair to point out that he had second thoughts because of this and the alleged mix-up on Joneses at NME.

                          I am glad that the Ultimate did make the Bee Gees number one the following week, as I think of the 4 contenders it is the one that most clearly deserves a place in the annals of UK number ones, and think it is sad that MM did not at some stage give it this recognition.

                          Comment


                          • Yeah you are spot on there Splodj and I wholeheartedly agree. Dave did mention that to me too. He had been trying to get confirmation of that along with many other joint No 1's that RR had along the way, including Frank Ifield and The Beatles in 1963 and Nancy Sinatra and The Rolling Stones in 1966 but this was never forthcoming before Dave sadly disappeared. I agree too on his theory with the mix up with Tom Jones and Tommy James.

                            However I had to go with what was actually in print for all major charts for the Ultimate compilation, to always be objective and accurate as to what the charts stated at the time, I simply input the figures available and the spreadsheet does the calculations. It was an imperfect time sadly for reliable data and we have what we have. Yes I'm glad too that at least The Bee Gees excellent record got credited the following week thankfully as an official No 1.
                            Last edited by MrTibbs; Mon November 23, 2020, 14:18.

                            Comment


                            • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                              The BBC chart has an incredible 11 records in tied positions this week. Almost half the chart.

                              There are 8 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

                              Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 21st 1968.

                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 21st 1968 NME MM RR Total
                              Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
                              Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                              1 1 Hey Jude - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 16050
                              7 2 Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin 2 2 2 2 15515
                              2 3 I've Gotta Get A Message To You - The Bee Gees 3 3 3 3 14980
                              3 4 Do It Again - The Beach Boys 4 4 4 5 14360
                              4 5 I Say A Little Prayer - Aretha Franklin 5 5 6 4 13745
                              5 6 Hold Me Tight - Johnny Nash 6 6 5 7 13540
                              12 7 Jesamine - The Casuals 7 7 7 6 12925
                              6 8 High In The Sky - Amen Corner 8 8 8 11 12050
                              8 9 This Guy's In Love With You - Herb Alpert 9= 9 9 10 11685
                              10 10 On The Road Again - Canned Heat 9= 10 10 8 11405
                              13 11 Lady Willpower - Gary Puckett and The Union Gap 11 12 11 9 10670
                              9 12 Help Yourself - Tom Jones 12 11 12 14 10195
                              11 13 Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Mama Cass 13 13 13 12 9715
                              18 14 Little Arrows - Leapy Lee 14 13 14 13 9380
                              23 15 Ice In The Sun - Status Quo 15= 15 17 17 7890
                              20 16 Hard To Handle - Otis Redding 15= 16 18 15 7610
                              14 17 Sunshine Girl - Herman's Hermits 17= 18 15 20 7535
                              19 18 I Pretend - Des O'Connor 17= 19 16 18 7255
                              24 19 Classical Gas - Mason Williams 17= 17 20 16 6825
                              16 20 Dance To The Music - Sly and The Family Stone 20 21 21 23 5180
                              29 21 I Live For The Sun - Vanity Fare 21 20 22 26 4875
                              25 22 America - The Nice 22= 24 24 21 4000
                              NEW 23 Hello I Love You - The Doors 22= 25 25 19 3720
                              15 24 Mony Mony - Tommy James and The Shondells 24 19 25 3510
                              17 25 Fire - The Crazy World Of Arthur Brown 25 23 22 2765
                              NEW 26 A Day Without Love - The Love Affair 27 22 28 2550
                              21 27 Keep On - Bruce Channel 26 28 26 24 2445
                              NEW 28 Yesterday's Dreams - The Four Tops 28 29 27 27 1740
                              28 29 Voices In The Sky - The Moody Blues 29 23 1600
                              NEW 30 The Weight - The Band 30= 26 1000
                              Les Bicyclettes De Belsize - Engelbert Humperdinck 27 800
                              I Close My Eyes And Count To Ten - Dusty Springfield 30= 29 28 755
                              Days - The Kinks 30 250
                              C'Mon Marianne - Grapefruit 30 200
                              When The Sun Comes Shining Thru' - Long John Baldry 29 170
                              One Inch Rock - Tyrannosaurus Rex 30 85

                              Comment


                              • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                                There are 10 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

                                Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 28th 1968.

                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 28th 1968 NME MM RR Total
                                Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
                                Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                1 1 Hey Jude - The Beatles 1 1 1 2 15965
                                2 2 Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin 2 2 2 1 15600
                                7 3 Jesamine - The Casuals 3 3 4 3 14730
                                3 4 I've Gotta Get A Message To You - The Bee Gees 4 4 3 4 14695
                                6 5 Hold Me Tight - Johnny Nash 5 5 5 5 13910
                                5 6 I Say A Little Prayer - Aretha Franklin 6= 6 7 6 13125
                                4 7 Do It Again - The Beach Boys 6= 7 6 7 13090
                                14 8 Little Arrows - Leapy Lee 8 8 8 9 12220
                                11 9 Lady Willpower - Gary Puckett and The Union Gap 9= 9 9 10 11685
                                10 10 On The Road Again - Canned Heat 9= 10 10 8 11405
                                8 11 High In The Sky - Amen Corner 11 11 11 11 10700
                                13 12 Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Mama Cass 12 13 12 14 9795
                                9 13 This Guy's In Love With You - Herb Alpert 13 12 13 15 9660
                                19 14 Classical Gas - Mason Williams 14 15 14 12 9065
                                12 15 Help Yourself - Tom Jones 15 16 15 13 8530
                                15 16 Ice In The Sun - Status Quo 16 14 16 17 8340
                                16 17 Hard To Handle - Otis Redding 17 18 17 16 7375
                                23 18 Hello I Love You - The Doors 18 19 21 18 6005
                                18 19 I Pretend - Des O'Connor 19= 23 18 21 5700
                                21 20 I Live For The Sun - Vanity Fare 19= 22 20 20 5485
                                26 21 A Day Without Love - The Love Affair 22 20 22 22 5215
                                NEW 22 The Red Balloon - The Dave Clark Five 21 21 23 19 5020
                                NEW 23 Les Bicyclettes De Belsize - Engelbert Humperdinck 23= 17 27 3800
                                17 24 Sunshine Girl - Herman's Hermits 25 19 25 3510
                                NEW 25 My Little Lady - The Tremeloes 23= 24 24 27 3490
                                22 26 America - The Nice 26 28 25 26 2525
                                28 27 Yesterday's Dreams - The Four Tops 27= 29 28 23 1830
                                30 28 The Weight - The Band 27= 25 24 1795
                                20 29 Dance To the Music - Sly and The Family Stone 30 26 1250
                                NEW 30 The Good The Bad And The Ugly - Leroy Holmes 29 26 1000
                                The Wreck Of The Antoinette - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 27 800
                                Mony Mony - Tommy James and The Shondells 29 500
                                Light My Fire - Jose Feliciano 29 30 485
                                Keep On - Bruce Channel 30 29 420
                                Voices In The Sky - The Moody Blues 29 400
                                One Inch Rock - Tyrannosaurus Rex 28 255

                                Comment


                                • On the question of how long it took for BMRB to settle in, the restricted album chart (Top 15s, 20s etc.) lasted until 17th January 1970. Is this indicative of the settling in period for the singles chart?

                                  As an aside, with the return of The Vicar Of Dibley to BBC1 last night I always find it difficult to believe that it is the same Trevor Peacock who wrote a USA number one (Mrs Brown).

                                  Comment


                                  • Poor move by The Beatles to release Mary Hopkin on same day as Hey Jude. Deprived them of a longer stay at number one.
                                    Any reason why Hey Jude entered the RR chart at no. 21 yet it entered at no. 1 on MM?
                                    Shipments were 250,000 by 4/9/68.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
                                      Poor move by The Beatles to release Mary Hopkin on same day as Hey Jude. Deprived them of a longer stay at number one.
                                      Any reason why Hey Jude entered the RR chart at no. 21 yet it entered at no. 1 on MM?
                                      Shipments were 250,000 by 4/9/68.
                                      Brian none of these charts are based on what the sellers actually sold. They are based on what the shops listed as selling. Each shop would have different ways of getting the list of 50 records they sent to each compiler. I suppose the easiest way was to check off the stock list. Others might have employed some form of system. Who compiled the list too is a factor. The main boss, the Manager or shop assistants. As the stores didn't make any money from producing the list, how much importance it was given would be widespread. Since stores bought up records to sell to the public, putting something at number ten that hasn't shifted a thing wouldn't be beyond the pale. I know that happened in the 70's before the barcode came about. And the compilers wouldn't spot such things, due to the fact that they had all fell for the record rep saying it will sell like hot cakes. It didn't of course, put it in the charts anyway. Then it sold like hot cakes!
                                      It would be very easy for 250 shops of MM to stick the Beatles top simply due to the fact it would be shifting the fastest though not maybe the most. Then again when did the shops fill in the return forms? I suspect that the ones supplying RR were too quick off the mark or to late sending them back. Especially when you are talking about only two days of sales: Friday and Saturday, for new singles.

                                      If only the papers had kept copies of the returns!
                                      Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                      Comment


                                      • The BMRB singles chart was just as erratic throughout 1969. It was riddled with ties which should have been nigh impossible given it counted sales and ties occurred even as high as No 4.
                                        Records fluctuated massively week on week, for example, Donald Peers dropped from 4 to 10, shot back up to No 4, then plummeted to No 20. Max Romeo dropped from No 10 right out of the Top 30 and he was also just one of numerous acts who had records dropping down big then climbing big the following week and so on and so on. BMRB was not accurate in 1969 having massing problems with diary returns and then some were spoiled and couldn,t be used. Some weeks it was reported they could only use 10% of the supposed 250 returns so 25 stores.
                                        Dave Taylor reckoned it never really settled down with a better proportion of returns until early 1971.

                                        Brian, it was indeed a bad move on the part of EMI and Apple to simultaneously release The Beatles and Mary Hopkin at the same time as it definitely affected Hey Jude.

                                        I have certainly not come across any evidence to justify that store returns were falsified on a large scale back then. No one, and I mean no one, has any factual evidence that exists in hard copy on weekly sales from the sixties so it is not possible to compile charts on that basis. Any attempt to do so is pure guesswork and speculation.
                                        So we have only the music paper charts from the time as the only information source, plus The BBC then UAC to give an overview.

                                        Comment


                                        • It was fortuitous for the BMRB chart that it started with Amen Corner catapulted to the top from 15 (BBC) or 19 (RR). A great fuss was made on the airwaves claiming this as evidence that the new chart was more up-to-date than the others or what had gone before.

                                          Comment


                                          • Yeah, I would agree with that. The one advantage the BMRB did have was that by using the sales of the previous week up until the Saturday, then announcing the chart just a few days later on the Tuesday it was a much better system both in regards to real time and in using actual record sales. It was a great pity that it didn't live up to initial expectations until early 1971 due to huge problems getting diaries back in time, getting diaries that were inadmissible, therefore greatly reducing the sample to compile the chart. If it had been able to use the sample of 250 it had been aiming for we would have had a more robust and credible chart from the outset.

                                            Comment


                                            • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                                              Two more classic entries this week, Hugo Montenegro's superior cover of Leroy Holmes's The Good The Bad And The Ugly and Jose Feliciano's completely different take on The Doors Light My Fire. Je t'aime both.

                                              There are 12 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

                                              Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 5th 1968.

                                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 5th 1968 NME MM RR Total
                                              Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
                                              Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                              2 1 Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin 1 1 1 1 16050
                                              1 2 Hey Jude - The Beatles 2 2 2 2 15515
                                              3 3 Jesamine - The Casuals 3 3 3 3 14980
                                              8 4 Little Arrows - Leapy Lee 4 4 4 4 14445
                                              5 5 Hold Me Tight - Johnny Nash 5 5 5 5 13910
                                              4 6 I've Gotta Get A Message To You - The Bee Gees 6 6 6 6 13375
                                              9 7 Lady Willpower - Gary Puckett and The Union Gap 7 7 7 7 12840
                                              6 8 I Say A Little Prayer - Aretha Franklin 8 8 8 8 12305
                                              7 9 Do It Again - The Beach Boys 9 9 9 12 11515
                                              14 10 Classical Gas - Mason Williams 10 10 10 13 10980
                                              10 11 On The Road Again - Canned Heat 12 12 11 14 10245
                                              22 12 The Red Balloon - The Dave Clark Five 11 14 12 9 10020
                                              11 13 High In The Sky - Amen Corner 13 13 15 10 9385
                                              16 14 Ice In The Sun - Status Quo 14 16 14 11 8950
                                              12 15 Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Mama Cass 15 17 13 15 8660
                                              21 16 A Day Without Love - The Love Affair 16 15 16 17 8140
                                              23 17 Les Bicyclettes De Belsize - Engelbert Humperdinck 19 11 17 7500
                                              25 18 My Little Lady - The Tremeloes 17 18 18 18 6955
                                              18 19 Hello I Love You - The Doors 18 19 23 16 5675
                                              15 20 Help Yourself - Tom Jones 20 22 20 19 5570
                                              20 21 I Live For The Sun - Vanity Fare 22 20 21 22 5465
                                              17 22 Hard To Handle - Otis Redding 21 20 22 20 5385
                                              13 23 This Guy's In Love With You - Herb Alpert 23 25 19 21 5050
                                              NEW 24 Light My Fire - Jose Feliciano 24 26 25 23 3180
                                              19 25 I Pretend - Des O'Connor 28= 24 26 2175
                                              27 26 Yesterday's Dreams - The Four Tops 28= 24 29 29 2070
                                              28 27 The Weight - The Band 25 30 26 24 2045
                                              NEW 28 The Good The Bad And The Ugly - Hugo Montenegro 26= 23 27 1940
                                              26 29 America - The Nice 26= 28 28 25 1860
                                              NEW 30 Marianne - Cliff Richard 30 29 27 28 1655
                                              Listen To Me - The Hollies 27 800
                                              Sunshine Girl - Herman's Hermits 30 30 335
                                              The Wreck Of The Antoinette - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 30 200

                                              Comment


                                              • I have certainly not come across any evidence to justify that store returns were falsified on a large scale back then. No one, and I mean no one, has any factual evidence that exists in hard copy on weekly sales from the sixties so it is not possible to compile charts on that basis. Any attempt to do so is pure guesswork and speculation.
                                                That just isn't true. You haven't read to many books on the charts is all I can say. First you could purchase the list of all chart shops. This was recorded in several books. Melody Maker themselves found evidence that there charts had been fiddle, which is why in 1967 they cut them back to a top 30! The Small Faces manager (Sharon Osbourne's husband is a known hyper of records. Another was Joe Meek who would buy up copies to get into the charts.
                                                And the shops themselves. Well the London stores (probably the largest part of any of these charts) operated in gang land and as the music industry was connected with drugs, the Mafia, would have hand in it all. All of the organisations involved in the music industry do it for the money, so they would not think twice on using any method they can to sell records. And the people in the press were nearly all alcoholics and if you get on the wrong side of one they are really nasty people.
                                                As for the factual stuff. It probably is there. However since most archives have very strict rules of privacy, especially to do with personal information you well never see it in your lifetime. Rather like census records you can't see them for a 100 years.
                                                If on the otherhand you are a university professor or some other privileged person connected with the academic world you might be granted access to some documents, but this will entail strict rules as to what you can do with them.

                                                Plus do bear in mind that until about 1967 charts were not taken to seriously. I have seen several authors of books related to the music industry point this out. Remember it took till 1977 to get the first decent chart book published commercially. That of course started the controversy over the use of the Record Retailer chart.
                                                Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

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                                                • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                                                  Another memorable 1968 moment debuts this week, Only One Woman from The Marbles courtesy of the Gibb brothers. Sweet One !

                                                  There are 10 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

                                                  Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 12th 1968.

                                                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 12th 1968 NME MM RR Total
                                                  Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
                                                  Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                                  1 1 Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin 1 1 1 1 16050
                                                  3 2 Jesamine - The Casuals 2 2 2 3 15430
                                                  2 3 Hey Jude - The Beatles 3= 3 3 4 14895
                                                  4 4 Little Arrows - Leapy Lee 3= 4 4 2 14615
                                                  7 5 Lady Willpower - Gary Puckett and The Union Gap 5 6 5 5 13710
                                                  5 6 Hold Me Tight - Johnny Nash 6 5 6 10 13235
                                                  6 7 I've Gotta Get A Message To You - The Bee Gees 9 8 7 13 12130
                                                  12 8 The Red Balloon - The Dave Clark Five 7 7 10 7 12090
                                                  18 9 My Little Lady - The Tremeloes 8 9 11 6 11525
                                                  10 10 Classical Gas - Mason Williams 10 12 8 9 11420
                                                  8 11 I Say A Little Prayer - Aretha Franklin 11 11 9 12 11115
                                                  16 12 A Day Without Love - The Love Affair 12 13 12 11 10050
                                                  17 13 Les Bicyclettes De Belsize - Engelbert Humperdinck 14 10 14 14 9895
                                                  14 14 Ice In The Sun - Status Quo 13 14 15 8 9355
                                                  9 15 Do It Again - The Beach Boys 15 15 13 20 8635
                                                  19 16 Hello I Love You - The Doors 16 17 18 15 7410
                                                  13 17 High In The Sky - Amen Corner 17 16 19 18 7105
                                                  15 18 Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Mama Cass 18 22 16 16 6825
                                                  24 19 Light My Fire - Jose Feliciano 19 19 20 17 6340
                                                  28 20 The Good The Bad And The Ugly - Hugo Montenegro 20 18 22 21 5700
                                                  11 21 On The Road Again - Canned Heat 21 23 17 25 5610
                                                  NEW 22 Listen To Me - The Hollies 22 20 24 23 4630
                                                  21 23 I Live For The Sun - Vanity Fare 23 21 23 24 4595
                                                  30 24 Marianne - Cliff Richard 25 26 21 27 3840
                                                  NEW 25 The Wreck Of The Antoinette - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 24 24 26 19 3670
                                                  20 26 Help Yourself - Tom Jones 26 28 26 22 2615
                                                  NEW 27 Only One Woman - The Marbles 27 25 28 26 2375
                                                  23 28 This Guy's In Love With You - Herb Alpert 29 25 30 1585
                                                  22 29 Hard To Handle - Otis Redding 28 27 29 28 1555
                                                  27 30 The Weight - The Band 30 29 30 29 820
                                                  With A Little Help From My Friends - Joe Cocker 29 400

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                                                  • Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
                                                    Remember it took till 1977 to get the first decent chart book published commercially. That of course started the controversy over the use of the Record Retailer chart.
                                                    The other day I stumbled across Alan Smith's comments about the early Guinness books (starting 1977), in the Comicsuk.co.uk forum:

                                                    27 Dec 2016: The early Guinness hit singles books were riddled with inaccuracies! A shoddy affair- missing charts (Xmas 67 for example) incorrect placings - wrong dates tp week ending! Truly abysmal!

                                                    28 Dec 2016: With "Guinness" it was the early volumes done by Gambicinni, Read & Rice Bros which were shoddy! Later editions were `corrected` by not just myself- but Dave McAleer and Keith Badman. The mistakes and omissions by earlier compilers would have filled a volume itself.

                                                    We knew they had cut corners to nth degree. Mr Gambicinni later made awful mess of a Euro-vision book and the publishers dispensed with him due to this!

                                                    So apparently we had to wait till sometime AFTER 1977 for the first decent chart book, ha. Not knowing how all relatively decent the other earlier 70s chart books were, Rock File, Record Hits, Tony Jasper, etc.
                                                    Last edited by RokinRobinOfLocksley; Wed November 25, 2020, 14:46.

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