The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[Graham76man]

see across the charts there was no way their record could possibly be #1 as it did not hold that position on any one individual chart, being 2, 3, and 2. It was a fluke because of BBC methodology based solely on counting points that it was given that enviable position.
The Beach Boys fall behind the Bee Gees so #1 was never really theirs either. So that leaves Herb Alpert as the outright winner for that week.

Of course in reality both the Bee Gees an Beach Boys did get to the top, The Beach Boys the Week before and the Bee Gees the week you claimed they never did it!
Only Herb Alpert wasn't top!

My memory of WH Smith at this time was that they had the Top 20 in a special display rack. I imagine this was to make purchasing easier, as you could put your favourite record in the basket with whatever else you were buying, and to encourage impulse buying. I wonder if it was the Top Pops chart that they used for the display.

None of the WH Smith shops contributed to the charts at that time. So if you bought records from them you made no difference to the published charts of the time. Ironically things haven't changed much, as if you stream a record today you have no effect on the charts, no matter how many times you do it. But if you buy a download you do!

Also, I mentioned a few posts back that two classic records still to chart in 1968 should have been #1's as they stand out as classics to this day.
Into the chart this week comes the first of the two, the brilliant haunting Jesamine by The Casuals. Oh the injustice !

You should believe in the Real Chart more. That makes Number One 13 Oct (week ending 19 Oct). Plus Ultravox did get to number one

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

The Bee Gees enjoy their week of glory this week as Herb Alpert relinquishes his. The Beach Boys have to be satisfied with a #2 hit but it's still the sound of summer 1968 along with Tommy James.
Apple records launch and propel both The Beatles with one of their best ever, and Paul McCartney produced Mary Hopkin onto the chart both heading for #1. Ironically Mary will both dethrone The Beatles from the top spot and deny The Casuals the prize. They will be held at #2 for two weeks by her.

There are 16 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 7th 1968.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 7th 1968								NME	MM	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC		TOP	30	Scored
2	1	I've Gotta Get A Message To You - The Bee Gees					1	1	3	1	15550
3	2	Do It Again - The Beach Boys					2	2	2	2	15515
1	3	This Guy's In Love With You - Herb Alpert					3	4	4	3	14530
7	4	I Say A Little Prayer - Aretha Franklin					4	5	5	4	13995
NEW	5	Hey Jude - The Beatles					8	3	1	21	13950
8	6	High In The Sky - Amen Corner					5	7	6	6	13175
4	7	Help Yourself - Tom Jones					6	6	8	5	12960
12	8	Hold Me Tight - Johnny Nash					7	8	7	7	12640
14	9	On The Road Again - Canned Heat					9	10	9	10	11485
5	10	Mony Mony - Tommy James and The Shondells					10	9	11	9	11270
9	11	Sunshine Girl - Herman's Hermits					12	11	10	11	10950
6	12	Fire - The Crazy World Of Arthur Brown					11	12	12	8	10505
11	13	Dance To The Music - Sly and The Family Stone					13	12	13	13	9830
18	14	Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Mama Cass					14	14	14	14	9095
13	15	Keep On - Bruce Channel					15	16	15	12	8615
15	16	I Pretend - Des O'Connor					16	15	16	16	8225
22	17	Lady Willpower - Gary Puckett and The Union Gap					17	17	17	15	7660
10	18	I Close My Eyes And Count To Ten - Dusty Springfield					18	19	19	17	6590
17	19	Days - The Kinks					19	21	18	19	6270
25	20	Jesamine - The Casuals					20=	20	20	22	5715
20	21	Hard To Handle - Otis Redding					20=	22	22	18	5155
NEW	22	Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin					23	18	23		4600
NEW	23	Little Arrows - Leapy Lee					22	23	27	20	3535
16	24	Mrs. Robinson - Simon and Garfunkel					24	30	21	23	3380
23	25	Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Anita Harris					26	25	25		2700
21	26	Your Time Hasn't Come Yet Baby - Elvis Presley					25	26	28	24	2345
27	27	America - The Nice					29		24	28	2005
29	28	Voices In The Sky - The Moody Blues					27	24		27	1740
NEW	29	Ice In The Sun - Status Quo					28	27	30	26	1475
24	30	The Universal - The Small Faces							26	30	1335
		Eleanor Rigby - Ray Charles						28			600
		Last Night In Soho - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich					30			25	510
		Classical Gas - Mason Williams							29		500
		Laurel And Hardy - The Equals						29			400
		Yesterday's Dreams - The Four Tops								29	170

[Splodj]

New entry 'Ice In The Sun', like 'Jesamine', co-written by Marty Wilde and Ronnie Scott.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Splodj said: My memory of WH Smith at this time was that they had the Top 20 in a special display rack. I imagine this was to make purchasing easier, as you could put your favourite record in the basket with whatever else you were buying, and to encourage impulse buying. I wonder if it was the Top Pops chart that they used for the display.

Graham76man said: None of the WH Smith shops contributed to the charts at that time. So if you bought records from them you made no difference to the published charts of the time. Ironically things haven't changed much, as if you stream a record today you have no effect on the charts, no matter how many times you do it. But if you buy a download you do!

Alan Smith said in his 50s 60s Chart History article, in discussing the Top Pops/Music Now chart:

"The first chart appeared in issue 23 dated 25 May 1968. Two issues later date 22 June 1968 both paper and chart became weekly."

So to clarify, WH Smith was not contributing to NME, MM, RR, or BBC charts, but they were indeed contributing to Top Pops/Music Now, they were the ONLY contributor to this chart. And it was published this week of 31 Aug 1968. And WH Smith could have indeed had those TP/MN charts in their record departments at this time.

[MrTibbs]

I bought most of my records from 1964 until the early seventies in one of the two record shops in my hometown Lanark, Darroch's and W. H. Smith's (or Menzies as it was called in Scotland). That branch posted the RR chart in the record department. I used to hot foot it from Lanark Grammar School at lunch time on a Thursday to study the new chart on the wall. Little did I know then it was the least reliable of all the charts at the time.

[Splodj]

By now both Billboard and Cashbox had gone over to using RR for their UK charts. Perhaps they were the cheapest!

[Robbie]

By now both Billboard and Cashbox had gone over to using RR for their UK charts. Perhaps they were the cheapest!

Billboard Publications were the owners of Record Retailer by this point. Indeed it was Billboard who changed the name of RR to Music Week in 1971. Music Week had been the name of a Billboard owned US publication in the early 1960s (I believe it ceased publication in the mid 1960s) so I assume Billboard were still keen to utilise the name at some point.

Alan Smith wrote an excellent article about the history of Record Retailer to the 1970s which can be found at https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...he-early-1970s

[Graham76man]

Alan Smith said in his 50s 60s Chart History article, in discussing the Top Pops/Music Now chart:

"The first chart appeared in issue 23 dated 25 May 1968. Two issues later date 22 June 1968 both paper and chart became weekly."

So to clarify, WH Smith was not contributing to NME, MM, RR, or BBC charts, but they were indeed contributing to Top Pops/Music Now, they were the ONLY contributor to this chart. And it was published this week of 31 Aug 1968. And WH Smith could have indeed had those TP/MN charts in their record departments at this time.

In which case with WH Smith being only the only source of sales. It was simply a store based chart. Apart from the top tens published in Record Mirror, would that make it the first store based chart I wonder?

I am curious as to why the TP/MN wasn't added to the BBC calculation of charts? Was it because it wasn't available to the public, was it a trade paper? RR chart of course could be seen in Record Mirror making it public. I saw TP/MN mentioned in a Record Business survey asking Retailers which charts they trusted, thus implying it was trade only like Music Week and RB.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

There are 12 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 14th 1968.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 14th 1968								NME	MM	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC		TOP	30	Scored
5	1	Hey Jude - The Beatles					1	1	1	1	16050
1	2	I've Gotta Get A Message To You - The Bee Gees					2	2	2	2	15515
2	3	Do It Again - The Beach Boys					3	3	3	3	14980
4	4	I Say A Little Prayer - Aretha Franklin					4	4	5	4	14195
8	5	Hold Me Tight - Johnny Nash					5	5	4	5	14160
6	6	High In The Sky - Amen Corner					8	7	6	9	12920
22	7	Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin					6	6	8	7	12790
3	8	This Guy's In Love With You - Herb Alpert					7	8	7	6	12725
7	9	Help Yourself - Tom Jones					9	10	9	8	11655
9	10	On The Road Again - Canned Heat					10	9	10	10	11435
14	11	Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Mama Cass					11	11	12	11	10450
20	12	Jesamine - The Casuals					12	12	11	12	10415
17	13	Lady Willpower - Gary Puckett and The Union Gap					13	13	14	13	9380
11	14	Sunshine Girl - Herman's Hermits					14	14	13	16	9175
10	15	Mony Mony - Tommy James and The Shondells					15	15	15	14	8645
13	16	Dance To The Music - Sly and The Family Stone					18	17	17	20	7235
12	17	Fire - The Crazy World Of Arthur Brown					16	19	18	15	7010
23	18	Little Arrows - Leapy Lee					17	16	20	17	6940
16	19	I Pretend - Des O'Connor					19	22	16	18	6655
21	20	Hard To Handle - Otis Redding					20	18	21	19	6120
15	21	Keep On - Bruce Channel					21	20	19	21	6050
18	22	I Close My Eyes And Count To Ten - Dusty Springfield					23	24	22	23	4330
29	23	Ice In The Sun - Status Quo					22	21	26	22	4015
NEW	24	Classical Gas - Mason Williams					24	26	24	25	3260
27	25	America - The Nice					25	25	25	26	3125
25	26	Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Anita Harris					27	23	27		2600
19	27	Days - The Kinks					26		23	24	2595
28	28	Voices In The Sky - The Moody Blues					28	27		27	1140
NEW	29	I Live For The Sun - Vanity Fare					29	29	30	28	905
24	30	Mrs. Robinson - Simon and Garfunkel							28	30	835
		Yesterday's Dreams - The Four Tops					30		29	29	670
		Need Your Love So Bad - Fleetwood Mac						28			600
		Hello I Love You - The Doors						30			200
		C'Mon Marianne - Grapefruit						30			200

[Splodj]

I am curious as to why the TP/MN wasn't added to the BBC calculation of charts? Was it because it wasn't available to the public, was it a trade paper?

Top Pops was available to the public, but so was Music Echo. I can see why the BBC did not think it 'major' enough to be included on a general basis, but I think there is an argument that it could have been used as a tiebreaker for that particular week.

I humbly disagree with Brian that if the three major charts each had a different number one, it is necessary that one of those three number ones be top of a composite chart. I think it is a sign that they could all be wrong and that you need to look closely at the runners up. After all this is the principle on which each chart company themselves operated; if three shops disagreed about what what top-selling but they all agreed about number two that record would get the most points.

Interesting to see that two of the contenders - Herb Alpert and Tom Jones - have fallen away faster than the other two.

[MrTibbs]

I know that a number of you believed (and wanted) that The Bee Gees taking #1 on 31st August should have been the case, but the record store returns did not uphold that as the case when breaking the tie made by just points and no record which never reached #1 on any major chart can realistically be a credible #1, Top Pops chart was compiled from a smaller sample than even RR.

The fact that it is most likely that Herb Alpert did take the top slot that week is further supported by Dave Taylor.
Dave had hard copies of charts compiled by EMI between 1957 and 1978. EMI compiled a chart similar to the BBC but also included and I quote Dave '' a sales sweep of up to 50 shops and therefore did not have tied positions''.

In Popscene on 6th September 2011 Dave posted a list of all the averaged No 1 singles comparing the BBC chart to EMI's with the sales tie breaker in place. Herb Alpert was listed as #1 on the EMI chart.
Here is what Dave published in this report on Popscene about the tie on 31st August 1968 using the EMI chart as evidence.

''this is the big one and settles the BBC joint number one where BBC had Herb in a tie with The Bee Gees and The Beach Boys. The Bee Gees couldn't of been top this week because they were not #1 on any other chart, and The Beach Boys were a Record Retailer #1 so 85 shops to over 600 couldn't be right. Another chart mag of the time Top Pops magazine had The Bee Gees on top this week. Top Pops itself was a teen mag that made a chart from 12 branches of W H Smith''.

This full 13 page article of Dave's covering that and all the other #1's between 1957 and 1978 makes for interesting reading.

[Splodj]

He then adds:

"NOTE: Since I put this list together, evidence seems to suggest that Record Retailer actually had a unlisted joint number one on 31st Aug 68, with both the Beach Boys & the Bee Gees. Which changes things a bit, because it means that the BBC average, should of showed the Bee Gees as sole number one, with Herb & the Beach Boys at joint #2. With EMI, a change to the Bee Gees at the top also, but Herb at #2 & the Beach Boys at #3."

As explained, I don't agree that RR did this, but it is only fair to point out that he had second thoughts because of this and the alleged mix-up on Joneses at NME.

I am glad that the Ultimate did make the Bee Gees number one the following week, as I think of the 4 contenders it is the one that most clearly deserves a place in the annals of UK number ones, and think it is sad that MM did not at some stage give it this recognition.

[MrTibbs]

Yeah you are spot on there Splodj and I wholeheartedly agree. Dave did mention that to me too. He had been trying to get confirmation of that along with many other joint No 1's that RR had along the way, including Frank Ifield and The Beatles in 1963 and Nancy Sinatra and The Rolling Stones in 1966 but this was never forthcoming before Dave sadly disappeared. I agree too on his theory with the mix up with Tom Jones and Tommy James.

However I had to go with what was actually in print for all major charts for the Ultimate compilation, to always be objective and accurate as to what the charts stated at the time, I simply input the figures available and the spreadsheet does the calculations. It was an imperfect time sadly for reliable data and we have what we have. Yes I'm glad too that at least The Bee Gees excellent record got credited the following week thankfully as an official No 1.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

The BBC chart has an incredible 11 records in tied positions this week. Almost half the chart.

There are 8 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 21st 1968.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 21st 1968								NME	MM	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC		TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Hey Jude - The Beatles					1	1	1	1	16050
7	2	Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin					2	2	2	2	15515
2	3	I've Gotta Get A Message To You - The Bee Gees					3	3	3	3	14980
3	4	Do It Again - The Beach Boys					4	4	4	5	14360
4	5	I Say A Little Prayer - Aretha Franklin					5	5	6	4	13745
5	6	Hold Me Tight - Johnny Nash					6	6	5	7	13540
12	7	Jesamine - The Casuals					7	7	7	6	12925
6	8	High In The Sky - Amen Corner					8	8	8	11	12050
8	9	This Guy's In Love With You - Herb Alpert					9=	9	9	10	11685
10	10	On The Road Again - Canned Heat					9=	10	10	8	11405
13	11	Lady Willpower - Gary Puckett and The Union Gap					11	12	11	9	10670
9	12	Help Yourself - Tom Jones					12	11	12	14	10195
11	13	Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Mama Cass					13	13	13	12	9715
18	14	Little Arrows - Leapy Lee					14	13	14	13	9380
23	15	Ice In The Sun - Status Quo					15=	15	17	17	7890
20	16	Hard To Handle - Otis Redding					15=	16	18	15	7610
14	17	Sunshine Girl - Herman's Hermits					17=	18	15	20	7535
19	18	I Pretend - Des O'Connor					17=	19	16	18	7255
24	19	Classical Gas - Mason Williams					17=	17	20	16	6825
16	20	Dance To The Music - Sly and The Family Stone					20	21	21	23	5180
29	21	I Live For The Sun - Vanity Fare					21	20	22	26	4875
25	22	America - The Nice					22=	24	24	21	4000
NEW	23	Hello I Love You - The Doors					22=	25	25	19	3720
15	24	Mony Mony - Tommy James and The Shondells					24		19	25	3510
17	25	Fire - The Crazy World Of Arthur Brown					25		23	22	2765
NEW	26	A Day Without Love - The Love Affair					27	22	28		2550
21	27	Keep On - Bruce Channel					26	28	26	24	2445
NEW	28	Yesterday's Dreams - The Four Tops					28	29	27	27	1740
28	29	Voices In The Sky - The Moody Blues					29	23			1600
NEW	30	The Weight - The Band					30=	26			1000
		Les Bicyclettes De Belsize - Engelbert Humperdinck						27			800
		I Close My Eyes And Count To Ten - Dusty Springfield					30=		29	28	755
		Days - The Kinks							30		250
		C'Mon Marianne - Grapefruit						30			200
		When The Sun Comes Shining Thru' - Long John Baldry								29	170
		One Inch Rock - Tyrannosaurus Rex								30	85

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

There are 10 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 28th 1968.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 28th 1968								NME	MM	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC		TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Hey Jude - The Beatles					1	1	1	2	15965
2	2	Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin					2	2	2	1	15600
7	3	Jesamine - The Casuals					3	3	4	3	14730
3	4	I've Gotta Get A Message To You - The Bee Gees					4	4	3	4	14695
6	5	Hold Me Tight - Johnny Nash					5	5	5	5	13910
5	6	I Say A Little Prayer - Aretha Franklin					6=	6	7	6	13125
4	7	Do It Again - The Beach Boys					6=	7	6	7	13090
14	8	Little Arrows - Leapy Lee					8	8	8	9	12220
11	9	Lady Willpower - Gary Puckett and The Union Gap					9=	9	9	10	11685
10	10	On The Road Again - Canned Heat					9=	10	10	8	11405
8	11	High In The Sky - Amen Corner					11	11	11	11	10700
13	12	Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Mama Cass					12	13	12	14	9795
9	13	This Guy's In Love With You - Herb Alpert					13	12	13	15	9660
19	14	Classical Gas - Mason Williams					14	15	14	12	9065
12	15	Help Yourself - Tom Jones					15	16	15	13	8530
15	16	Ice In The Sun - Status Quo					16	14	16	17	8340
16	17	Hard To Handle - Otis Redding					17	18	17	16	7375
23	18	Hello I Love You - The Doors					18	19	21	18	6005
18	19	I Pretend - Des O'Connor					19=	23	18	21	5700
21	20	I Live For The Sun - Vanity Fare					19=	22	20	20	5485
26	21	A Day Without Love - The Love Affair					22	20	22	22	5215
NEW	22	The Red Balloon - The Dave Clark Five					21	21	23	19	5020
NEW	23	Les Bicyclettes De Belsize - Engelbert Humperdinck					23=	17	27		3800
17	24	Sunshine Girl - Herman's Hermits					25		19	25	3510
NEW	25	My Little Lady - The Tremeloes					23=	24	24	27	3490
22	26	America - The Nice					26	28	25	26	2525
28	27	Yesterday's Dreams - The Four Tops					27=	29	28	23	1830
30	28	The Weight - The Band					27=	25		24	1795
20	29	Dance To the Music - Sly and The Family Stone					30		26		1250
NEW	30	The Good The Bad And The Ugly - Leroy Holmes					29	26			1000
		The Wreck Of The Antoinette - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich						27			800
		Mony Mony - Tommy James and The Shondells							29		500
		Light My Fire - Jose Feliciano						29		30	485
		Keep On - Bruce Channel							30	29	420
		Voices In The Sky - The Moody Blues						29			400
		One Inch Rock - Tyrannosaurus Rex								28	255

[Splodj]

On the question of how long it took for BMRB to settle in, the restricted album chart (Top 15s, 20s etc.) lasted until 17th January 1970. Is this indicative of the settling in period for the singles chart?

As an aside, with the return of The Vicar Of Dibley to BBC1 last night I always find it difficult to believe that it is the same Trevor Peacock who wrote a USA number one (Mrs Brown).

[brian05]

Poor move by The Beatles to release Mary Hopkin on same day as Hey Jude. Deprived them of a longer stay at number one.
Any reason why Hey Jude entered the RR chart at no. 21 yet it entered at no. 1 on MM?
Shipments were 250,000 by 4/9/68.

[Graham76man]

Poor move by The Beatles to release Mary Hopkin on same day as Hey Jude. Deprived them of a longer stay at number one.
Any reason why Hey Jude entered the RR chart at no. 21 yet it entered at no. 1 on MM?
Shipments were 250,000 by 4/9/68.

Brian none of these charts are based on what the sellers actually sold. They are based on what the shops listed as selling. Each shop would have different ways of getting the list of 50 records they sent to each compiler. I suppose the easiest way was to check off the stock list. Others might have employed some form of system. Who compiled the list too is a factor. The main boss, the Manager or shop assistants. As the stores didn't make any money from producing the list, how much importance it was given would be widespread. Since stores bought up records to sell to the public, putting something at number ten that hasn't shifted a thing wouldn't be beyond the pale. I know that happened in the 70's before the barcode came about. And the compilers wouldn't spot such things, due to the fact that they had all fell for the record rep saying it will sell like hot cakes. It didn't of course, put it in the charts anyway. Then it sold like hot cakes!
It would be very easy for 250 shops of MM to stick the Beatles top simply due to the fact it would be shifting the fastest though not maybe the most. Then again when did the shops fill in the return forms? I suspect that the ones supplying RR were too quick off the mark or to late sending them back. Especially when you are talking about only two days of sales: Friday and Saturday, for new singles.

If only the papers had kept copies of the returns!

[MrTibbs]

The BMRB singles chart was just as erratic throughout 1969. It was riddled with ties which should have been nigh impossible given it counted sales and ties occurred even as high as No 4.
Records fluctuated massively week on week, for example, Donald Peers dropped from 4 to 10, shot back up to No 4, then plummeted to No 20. Max Romeo dropped from No 10 right out of the Top 30 and he was also just one of numerous acts who had records dropping down big then climbing big the following week and so on and so on. BMRB was not accurate in 1969 having massing problems with diary returns and then some were spoiled and couldn,t be used. Some weeks it was reported they could only use 10% of the supposed 250 returns so 25 stores.
Dave Taylor reckoned it never really settled down with a better proportion of returns until early 1971.

Brian, it was indeed a bad move on the part of EMI and Apple to simultaneously release The Beatles and Mary Hopkin at the same time as it definitely affected Hey Jude.

I have certainly not come across any evidence to justify that store returns were falsified on a large scale back then. No one, and I mean no one, has any factual evidence that exists in hard copy on weekly sales from the sixties so it is not possible to compile charts on that basis. Any attempt to do so is pure guesswork and speculation.
So we have only the music paper charts from the time as the only information source, plus The BBC then UAC to give an overview.

[Splodj]

It was fortuitous for the BMRB chart that it started with Amen Corner catapulted to the top from 15 (BBC) or 19 (RR). A great fuss was made on the airwaves claiming this as evidence that the new chart was more up-to-date than the others or what had gone before.

[MrTibbs]

Yeah, I would agree with that. The one advantage the BMRB did have was that by using the sales of the previous week up until the Saturday, then announcing the chart just a few days later on the Tuesday it was a much better system both in regards to real time and in using actual record sales. It was a great pity that it didn't live up to initial expectations until early 1971 due to huge problems getting diaries back in time, getting diaries that were inadmissible, therefore greatly reducing the sample to compile the chart. If it had been able to use the sample of 250 it had been aiming for we would have had a more robust and credible chart from the outset.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Two more classic entries this week, Hugo Montenegro's superior cover of Leroy Holmes's The Good The Bad And The Ugly and Jose Feliciano's completely different take on The Doors Light My Fire. Je t'aime both.

There are 12 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 5th 1968.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 5th 1968								NME	MM	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC		TOP	30	Scored
2	1	Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin					1	1	1	1	16050
1	2	Hey Jude - The Beatles					2	2	2	2	15515
3	3	Jesamine - The Casuals					3	3	3	3	14980
8	4	Little Arrows - Leapy Lee					4	4	4	4	14445
5	5	Hold Me Tight - Johnny Nash					5	5	5	5	13910
4	6	I've Gotta Get A Message To You - The Bee Gees					6	6	6	6	13375
9	7	Lady Willpower - Gary Puckett and The Union Gap					7	7	7	7	12840
6	8	I Say A Little Prayer - Aretha Franklin					8	8	8	8	12305
7	9	Do It Again - The Beach Boys					9	9	9	12	11515
14	10	Classical Gas - Mason Williams					10	10	10	13	10980
10	11	On The Road Again - Canned Heat					12	12	11	14	10245
22	12	The Red Balloon - The Dave Clark Five					11	14	12	9	10020
11	13	High In The Sky - Amen Corner					13	13	15	10	9385
16	14	Ice In The Sun - Status Quo					14	16	14	11	8950
12	15	Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Mama Cass					15	17	13	15	8660
21	16	A Day Without Love - The Love Affair					16	15	16	17	8140
23	17	Les Bicyclettes De Belsize - Engelbert Humperdinck					19	11	17		7500
25	18	My Little Lady - The Tremeloes					17	18	18	18	6955
18	19	Hello I Love You - The Doors					18	19	23	16	5675
15	20	Help Yourself - Tom Jones					20	22	20	19	5570
20	21	I Live For The Sun - Vanity Fare					22	20	21	22	5465
17	22	Hard To Handle - Otis Redding					21	20	22	20	5385
13	23	This Guy's In Love With You - Herb Alpert					23	25	19	21	5050
NEW	24	Light My Fire - Jose Feliciano					24	26	25	23	3180
19	25	I Pretend - Des O'Connor					28=		24	26	2175
27	26	Yesterday's Dreams - The Four Tops					28=	24	29	29	2070
28	27	The Weight - The Band					25	30	26	24	2045
NEW	28	The Good The Bad And The Ugly - Hugo Montenegro					26=	23		27	1940
26	29	America - The Nice					26=	28	28	25	1860
NEW	30	Marianne - Cliff Richard					30	29	27	28	1655
		Listen To Me - The Hollies						27			800
		Sunshine Girl - Herman's Hermits							30	30	335
		The Wreck Of The Antoinette - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich						30			200

[Graham76man]

I have certainly not come across any evidence to justify that store returns were falsified on a large scale back then. No one, and I mean no one, has any factual evidence that exists in hard copy on weekly sales from the sixties so it is not possible to compile charts on that basis. Any attempt to do so is pure guesswork and speculation.

That just isn't true. You haven't read to many books on the charts is all I can say. First you could purchase the list of all chart shops. This was recorded in several books. Melody Maker themselves found evidence that there charts had been fiddle, which is why in 1967 they cut them back to a top 30! The Small Faces manager (Sharon Osbourne's husband is a known hyper of records. Another was Joe Meek who would buy up copies to get into the charts.
And the shops themselves. Well the London stores (probably the largest part of any of these charts) operated in gang land and as the music industry was connected with drugs, the Mafia, would have hand in it all. All of the organisations involved in the music industry do it for the money, so they would not think twice on using any method they can to sell records. And the people in the press were nearly all alcoholics and if you get on the wrong side of one they are really nasty people.
As for the factual stuff. It probably is there. However since most archives have very strict rules of privacy, especially to do with personal information you well never see it in your lifetime. Rather like census records you can't see them for a 100 years.
If on the otherhand you are a university professor or some other privileged person connected with the academic world you might be granted access to some documents, but this will entail strict rules as to what you can do with them.

Plus do bear in mind that until about 1967 charts were not taken to seriously. I have seen several authors of books related to the music industry point this out. Remember it took till 1977 to get the first decent chart book published commercially. That of course started the controversy over the use of the Record Retailer chart.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Another memorable 1968 moment debuts this week, Only One Woman from The Marbles courtesy of the Gibb brothers. Sweet One !

There are 10 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 12th 1968.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 12th 1968								NME	MM	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC		TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin					1	1	1	1	16050
3	2	Jesamine - The Casuals					2	2	2	3	15430
2	3	Hey Jude - The Beatles					3=	3	3	4	14895
4	4	Little Arrows - Leapy Lee					3=	4	4	2	14615
7	5	Lady Willpower - Gary Puckett and The Union Gap					5	6	5	5	13710
5	6	Hold Me Tight - Johnny Nash					6	5	6	10	13235
6	7	I've Gotta Get A Message To You - The Bee Gees					9	8	7	13	12130
12	8	The Red Balloon - The Dave Clark Five					7	7	10	7	12090
18	9	My Little Lady - The Tremeloes					8	9	11	6	11525
10	10	Classical Gas - Mason Williams					10	12	8	9	11420
8	11	I Say A Little Prayer - Aretha Franklin					11	11	9	12	11115
16	12	A Day Without Love - The Love Affair					12	13	12	11	10050
17	13	Les Bicyclettes De Belsize - Engelbert Humperdinck					14	10	14	14	9895
14	14	Ice In The Sun - Status Quo					13	14	15	8	9355
9	15	Do It Again - The Beach Boys					15	15	13	20	8635
19	16	Hello I Love You - The Doors					16	17	18	15	7410
13	17	High In The Sky - Amen Corner					17	16	19	18	7105
15	18	Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Mama Cass					18	22	16	16	6825
24	19	Light My Fire - Jose Feliciano					19	19	20	17	6340
28	20	The Good The Bad And The Ugly - Hugo Montenegro					20	18	22	21	5700
11	21	On The Road Again - Canned Heat					21	23	17	25	5610
NEW	22	Listen To Me - The Hollies					22	20	24	23	4630
21	23	I Live For The Sun - Vanity Fare					23	21	23	24	4595
30	24	Marianne - Cliff Richard					25	26	21	27	3840
NEW	25	The Wreck Of The Antoinette - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich					24	24	26	19	3670
20	26	Help Yourself - Tom Jones					26	28	26	22	2615
NEW	27	Only One Woman - The Marbles					27	25	28	26	2375
23	28	This Guy's In Love With You - Herb Alpert					29		25	30	1585
22	29	Hard To Handle - Otis Redding					28	27	29	28	1555
27	30	The Weight - The Band					30	29	30	29	820
		With A Little Help From My Friends - Joe Cocker						29			400

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Remember it took till 1977 to get the first decent chart book published commercially. That of course started the controversy over the use of the Record Retailer chart.

The other day I stumbled across Alan Smith's comments about the early Guinness books (starting 1977), in the Comicsuk.co.uk forum:

27 Dec 2016: The early Guinness hit singles books were riddled with inaccuracies! A shoddy affair- missing charts (Xmas 67 for example) incorrect placings - wrong dates tp week ending! Truly abysmal!

28 Dec 2016: With "Guinness" it was the early volumes done by Gambicinni, Read & Rice Bros which were shoddy! Later editions were `corrected` by not just myself- but Dave McAleer and Keith Badman. The mistakes and omissions by earlier compilers would have filled a volume itself.

We knew they had cut corners to nth degree. Mr Gambicinni later made awful mess of a Euro-vision book and the publishers dispensed with him due to this!

So apparently we had to wait till sometime AFTER 1977 for the first decent chart book, ha. Not knowing how all relatively decent the other earlier 70s chart books were, Rock File, Record Hits, Tony Jasper, etc.