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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    Bill Haley is at the peak of his chart domination. He has 5 singles in the Top 20 including Rock Around Around The Clock climbing back into the Top10. Quite an achievement.
    Yes, very few would go on to have the same success whilst alive until you get to Ed Sheeran... but that's down to a changed music consumption path whereby anything can be accessed rather than what's in the shops and selling well, as in this case.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Bill Haley is at the peak of his chart domination. He has 5 singles in the Top 20 including Rock Around Around The Clock climbing back into the Top10. Quite an achievement.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 13th 1956

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 13th 1956 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 20 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton 1 1 1 4350
    2 2 A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine 2 2 2 4205
    3 3 Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day 4 4 3 3975
    4 4 Hound Dog - Elvis Presley 3 3 5 3940
    5 5 Giddy-Up-A-Ding-Dong - Freddie Bell and The Bell Boys 7 5 4 3700
    8 6 Only You - The Platters (B) 6 7 3533
    7 7 Ying Tong Song / Bloodnok's Rock'n'Roll Call - The Goons 6 10 8 3425
    6 8 Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets 9 7 6 3410
    11 9 Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets 8 8 10 3215
    10 10 Bring A Little Water Sylvie - Lonnie Donegan (B) 10 9 3138
    12 11 Born To Be With You - The Chordettes 12 14 12 2715
    13 12 The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets 11 13 15 2620
    17 13 When Mexico Gave Up The Rumba - Mitchell Torok 14 9 14 2565
    14 14 Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan (A) 17 13 2400
    22 15 More - Perry Como (A) 15 15 18 2140
    16 16 Razzle Dazzle - Bill Haley and His Comets 17 19 16 2050
    19 17 See You Later Alligator - Bill Haley and His Comets 20 17 1555
    20 18 A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer 13 12 1550
    9 19 The Great Pretender - The Platters (A) 11 1200
    18 20 Why Do Fools Fall In Love - The Teenagers 23 20 1180
    26 21 More - Jimmy Young 20 15 1035
    15 22 Walk Hand In Hand - Tony Martin 16 975
    21 23 Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme 18 845
    NEW 24 Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray 19 780
    NEW 25 Guys And Dolls (EP) - Marlon Brando and Jean Simmons 19 720
    23 26 I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino 22 585
    RE 27 Glendora - Perry Como (B) 27 19 500
    NEW 28 Ten Thousand Miles - Michael Holliday 24 455
    28 29 Serenade - Slim Whitman 25 390
    29 30 Love Me As Though There Were No Tomorrow - Nat King Cole 26 325
    Autumn Concerto - The Melachrino Orchestra 30 18 325
    Race With The Devil - Gene Vincent 28 195
    Serenade - Mario Lanza 29 130
    Only You / The Great Pretender - The Platters 5
    Bring A Little Water Sylvie / Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan 10
    24 A Woman In Love - Ronnie Hilton
    25 You Are My First Love - Ruby Murray
    27 Be-Bop-A-Lula - Gene Vincent
    30 Walk Hand In Hand - Jimmy Parkinson

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Robin - giving priority to records that appear in all 3 charts, as per your eye deer, is somewhat achieved in scenario (c) by reducing the unfair advantage to absentees.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 6th 1956

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 6th 1956 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 20 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton 1 1 1 4350
    6 2 A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine 3 2 2 4140
    2 3 Whatever Will Be Will be - Doris Day 2 4 3 4105
    5 4 Hound Dog - Elvis Presley 4 3 4 3935
    20 5 Giddy-Up-A-Ding-Dong - Freddie Bell and The Bell Boys 6 5 5 3705
    3 6 Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets 5 6 6 3690
    4 7 Ying Tong Song / Bloodnok's Rock'n'Roll Call - The Goons 7 8 7 3460
    10 8 Only You - The Platters (B) 7 9 3295
    7 9 The Great Pretender - The Platters (A) 13 8 3073
    8 10 Bring A Little Water Sylvie - Lonnie Donegan (B) 10 11 2953
    14 11 Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and The Comets 12 16 10 2795
    17 12 Born To Be With You - The Chordettes 11 11 16 2600
    12 13 The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets 16 9 12 2555
    13 14 Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan (A) 15 13 2505
    11 15 Walk Hand In Hand - Tony Martin 10 17 2205
    21 16 Razzle Dazzle - Bill Haley and The Comets 13 20 18 2170
    19 17 When Mexico Gave Up The Rumba - Mitchell Torok 19 11 15 2140
    16 18 Why Do Fools Fall In Love - The Teenagers 17 20 19 1850
    24 19 See You Later Alligator - Bill Haley and His Comets 20 14 1735
    9 20 A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer 15 18 1300
    15 21 Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme 13 1170
    29 22 More - Perry Como (A) 18 17 1125
    22 23 I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino 24 13 815
    NEW 24 A Woman In Love - Ronnie Hilton 20 660
    RE 25 You Are My First Love - Ruby Murray 21 650
    29 26 More - Jimmy Young 22 585
    28 27 Be-Bop-A-Lula - Gene Vincent 23 520
    18 28 Serenade - Slim Whitman 27 19 500
    RE 29 Love Me As Though There Were No Tomorrow - Nat King Cole 25 390
    RE 30 Walk Hand In Hand - Jimmy Parkinson 26 325
    Ten Thousand Miles - Michael Holliday 28 195
    26 Glendora - Perry Como (B) 29 130
    Glendora - Glen Mason 30 65
    Only You / The Great Pretender - The Platters 8
    Bring A Little Water Sylvie / Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan 9
    23 Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis Presley
    24 By The Fountains Of Rome - Edmund Hockridge
    27 I Want You I Need You I Love You - Elvis Presley

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Here's another thought I haven't done any research on: let's say you have 3 charts. Some records will appear on all 3, some only on 2, some only on 1. Maybe all the 3 chart records should appear on the combo chart first at the top, followed by all the 2 chart records in the middle, followed by all the 1 chart records at the bottom. Using weighted points to sort them within each category.

    Just an alternative eye deer...

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    I was doing inverse points like this: For the Top 50 chart, chart position #1 = 50 inverse points, down to chart position #50 = 1 inverse point. Or, inverse points = 51 - chart position.

    For the two Top 30 charts, the same thing for chart positions #1 down to #30: #1 = 50 inverse points, down to #30 = 21 inverse points. Then awarding inverse points to the missing records at what would be positions #31 down to #50:

    a = 0 inverse points for all of them
    b = 20 inverse points for all of them
    c = 10.5 inverse points for all of them
    d = 51 - the average chart position for the charts the missing records appear on

    Something like that. It was years ago. I just pulled up my old spreadsheet, and it's got so many scenarios on it (somewhere around 50 or so), I'd be super straining my brain if I were to try and figure it out again, ha.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Robin - I assume in (a) you are counting up as in UAC and in (b) you are counting down as in BBC. If I have misunderstood please set me right!

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I would have thought (d) is the best. I don't think it is "assuming data that does not exist", it is maximising the data that does exist. When MM was compiling a Top 50 I reckon this was very valuable data. (Not so sure about RR - particularly in the early low sample days!! - but weighting could take care of that,)

    (a) and (b) produce exactly the same results as each other when I test them.

    I think the description in (a) of "not awarding any extra points" is misleading. What matters is that you are awarding a fixed number of points (zero points) and that is the same as awarding a fixed number of points (31 points) counting the other way.

    Zero is not a neutral concept (in this context) it is a number with +1 above it and -1 below it. You can pivot the zero anywhere. Pivoting it at number 31 does not make it any more neutral than pivoting it at (say) 17. If you pivot it at 31 that means number 32 is -1 (minus one) point, number 33 is -2 points and so on. So if you found out that the real position was number 33, under the BBC system you should award 33 points and under the UAC system you should award -2 points. By awarding the default of 31 points (BBC) and 0 points (UAC) you are out by exactly the same number of points under both systems.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    For what it's worth, I did some limited research on this awhile back, something similar to combining a Top 30 chart with 2 Top 20s. Actually, I think I looked at combining a Top 50 with 2 Top 30s. Same deal.

    I tried 4 methods for the missing records #31 to #50:
    a--not awarding any extra points for the missing records
    b--using #31 for all the missing records
    c--using the average chart position #40.5 for all the missing records
    d--calculating an average of the other charts for the missing records

    Then I did the combos. I think I did a simple combo with no weighting of record shops, and then a combo with weighting of record shops.

    The end result of this limited research (if my memory is correct) is that all 4 methods were relatively close to each other, that only a few records were affected at the lower end of the combo charts. But for methods b, c, and d, you are assuming things that are not in evidence.

    b is the worst of the lot because you are adding more total points to the chart, you can't have 20 records tied at #31. A 50 position chart would normally have 1275 total inverse points, before applying record shop weightings. But a 30 position chart, with 20 records ranked at #31 would give a total of 1465 inverse points, for an extra 190 points. This throws things off, giving an advantage to those records that are missing from positions #31 to #50 on those charts.

    c and d are less bad, but still you are assuming data that does not exist.

    Philosophically speaking, 'a' is the most logical mathematical solution, you are going with only the data you have. b is not valid, and there are only minimal combo differences compared to c and d. Of course each week's charts will give different results, but overall 'a' is the way to go.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    To be fair, for most of the 'composite' period the BBC calculated 30 but broadcast only a Top 20. When we look at their Top 30s in that file it is easy to forget that the 21-30 section, which contained the bulk of such 'distortions', was only for their private use.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    If you have NME positions 21-30 why not use them? Naturally it is imperfect because NME is only shining some light on 21-30, but surely some light is better than none!



    This is an interesting possibility. If all three charts were Top 20s it would be unfair to assume that an absentee is at number 21 - because that is the highest possible position it could be. You could do some research and determine an average position. If this were (say) 25 you could then treat an absentee as at number 25. So you would then award each absentee 25 points (BBC method) or minus 4 points (UAC) method, instead of 21 and zero respectively.

    But I don't see how applying the same score to positions 21-30 (whether 21 or 25) can be superior to applying the actual NME positions.

    Or am I missing something? (again!)
    I totally agree with you there Splodj because that is my reasoning as well. At least NME's 21 to 30 positions were factual so at least the bottom ten of the UAC is based on fact not supposition. To my mind that's the error the BBC made, assuming every record not in an individual chart be awarded points as if it were #21 or #31 which all of them couldn't be. It totally distorted, especially the lower positions, in the BBC chart.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    If you have NME positions 21-30 why not use them? Naturally it is imperfect because NME is only shining some light on 21-30, but surely some light is better than none!

    Originally posted by membranemusic View Post
    or you could choose an average points figure
    This is an interesting possibility. If all three charts were Top 20s it would be unfair to assume that an absentee is at number 21 - because that is the highest possible position it could be. You could do some research and determine an average position. If this were (say) 25 you could then treat an absentee as at number 25. So you would then award each absentee 25 points (BBC method) or minus 4 points (UAC) method, instead of 21 and zero respectively.

    But I don't see how applying the same score to positions 21-30 (whether 21 or 25) can be superior to applying the actual NME positions.

    Or am I missing something? (again!)

    Leave a comment:


  • membranemusic
    replied
    Mr Tibbs, yes I totally accept your point of view. The issue of lower figures 'invention' was a real problem when I was busy in the late 1960s doing the straight average Top 50 every week.

    With that in mind, I nonetheless had the nerve to juggle the figures for the UAC chart of 29 Sep 1956.. For those who are interested, the Platters double come in at No. 6 on jiggled joint points, and Lonnie Donegan up to No. 7. This was on my Method 2, but the same result happens with both on Method 1. Further down, Perry Como does the jiggle at No. 24 including RM compensation. But we have only 29 records ion the Top 30!

    I won't be doing this every week, promise.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by membranemusic View Post
    Splodj, the most egregious example of the BBC using Method 1 for double –sided hits was “The Next Time/Bachelor Boy”, which on 29th December 1962 and January 26th 1963, should have been No. 1 on the BBC chart, though fortunately it did not affect intervening weeks.

    Without doing the calcs:
    “Rock a Hula Baby/Can’t Help Falling In Love”: 3rd March 1962, 10th March 1962, 17th March 1962 - possibly more weeks at No.1 on the BBC.

    “Blue Bayou / Mean Woman Blues” - Roy Orbison: 12 Oct 1963, 19th Oct 1963, 2nd Nov 1963 , 9th November 1963 - possibly higher than No. 4 on the BBC, although there was a strong No. 3?

    However I think the UAC reflects a fair outcome in these cases.
    Yes, you are right and I am wrong. I even criticised the BBC on this thread for its 'split' methodology and said it should have used the same system it did for EPs. My memory then tricked me into thinking it had!

    Of course by the time the BBC chart came along NME was the only splitter. We cannot tell how a BBC chart would have treated the issue at this time when most were splitting. I don't think the 'highest placing' method would have been workable and suspect they too would have split.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Hi membrane. Your thoughts on points below #20 is valid, the only downside being we don't have a clue what positions any record actually held below 20 on RM or MM. Originally I thought about using the same system the BBC used ie considering all records below #20 on RM and MM to be at #21 to equalise points but then took the view as it wasn't factual and as all records couldn't hold that position it would actually make the bottom ten of the UAC more a guesstimate than it already is so just went with the straight positions. As we truly have no evidence that Mitchell Torok would definitely have been in an expanded RM Top 30 it would not be fair to assume so and credit it with points (it wasn't in NME's Top 30 either) .

    Because of this I've always said that between 1955 and late 1962 when MM and Disc also moved to a Top 30 as well to take the Top 20 as factual and consider the bottom ten with a tongue in cheek approach.

    That said I sincerely appreciate you raising this valid point and hope my explanation reassures you.

    Leave a comment:


  • membranemusic
    replied
    Sorry to raise another query on the same chart 22 Sep 1956 - not a double-sided issue. This is almost trivial, but ....

    Should Mitchell Torok not be No. 28? As I see it, his record entry in MM is being under-compensated by the lack of Nos 21-30 on the RM chart. This under-compensation affects all records equally apart from those that get a placing in the other Top 20. If you give UAC nos 21-29 [all NME entries] another 600 points as though they were all joint No. 21 on RM [or you could choose an average points figure], plus Torok also, then Torok’s score is 860, enabling him to pip D Hughes in a tie break by virtue of being much higher on MM (No. 18).
    Just an opinion!

    Leave a comment:


  • membranemusic
    replied
    Splodj, the most egregious example of the BBC using Method 1 for double –sided hits was “The Next Time/Bachelor Boy”, which on 29th December 1962 and January 26th 1963, should have been No. 1 on the BBC chart, though fortunately it did not affect intervening weeks.

    Without doing the calcs:
    “Rock a Hula Baby/Can’t Help Falling In Love”: 3rd March 1962, 10th March 1962, 17th March 1962 - possibly more weeks at No.1 on the BBC.

    “Blue Bayou / Mean Woman Blues” - Roy Orbison: 12 Oct 1963, 19th Oct 1963, 2nd Nov 1963 , 9th November 1963 - possibly higher than No. 4 on the BBC, although there was a strong No. 3?

    However I think the UAC reflects a fair outcome in these cases.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Radio Luxembourg might also play a record by an artist from the USA that wasn't released in this country yet. So if you wanted the record by that artist you wouldn't have got it. Though you might have got the record if you lived in a port town, such as Liverpool, as they did have more imports coming in. The sheet music charts were sometimes a bit quicker than record industry at getting a song out. They certainly were in the late 40's and early 50's. Though the Sheet Music Charts tended to hold on to records, even if sometimes the distributors of records had stopped sending them out. I had a look at the sheet music chart for the 29 September and found two songs missing in the top 20. Who Are We? And Autumn Concerto.
    The "More" track being new on the above chart had been in three weeks on the Sheet chart and was number 7. Showing a much slower release on record. The top two were flipped on the Sheet Chart.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I think another important factor at this time is that the record charts were still in the shadow of the 'Sheet Music Chart'. It was already well established and was given just as prominent a display in both NME and MM chart pages alongside their record charts. Also at this time Radio Luxembourg's Top Twenty Show had a massive radio audience and this remember was a broadcast of the 'Sheet Music Chart'.

    So, the record buying public I believe were still asking for specific songs they heard on the radio as opposed to a record, so they would be asking for The Great Pretender or Only You when they went into their record shop. Some stores would therefore report on both sides independently when they gave their report to the relevant music paper while others would just add both together in their return.
    The dealer returns had to be reflecting this confusion as the ones I have from '54 and '55 for RM showed some sides split and some combined on individual returns. Compilation would have been as much a nightmare for the music papers as it is for me just coping with three sets of figures.

    So NME were possibly predominantly getting the 'add together' in their returns and ignored the split returns, and MM and RM were getting split returns and ignored joint returns. Who would know.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    split sides taking up two chart positions and denying other records an opportunity to chart.
    And this why I think that when some charts split sides there is no 'perfect' way of doing a composite combined chart. In the RM chart above, even if you moved up the positions below 10 two places you still wouldn't know what numbers 19 and 20 should have been.

    Has anyone done an analysis on which records were most affected?

    NME denied Elvis (Rock-a-hoola/Can't help falling in love) number 1 and allowed Cliff (Next Time/Bachelor Boy) there for only 1 week. Perhaps most damaging was NME denying the Everleys (Bird Song) the top spot meaning it is missing from the 'official' pantheon of number ones.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I actually find it strange that charts at that time actually did separate sides. When the NME launched their 'record chart' in 1952 you would have thought that is exactly what it would be but from the start the NME chart listed split sides which defied the principle of a 'record chart' as it really was still a song chart in reality.
    Both RM and MM further perpetrated this practise on their arrival on the chart scene and as a result the 'record' charts of that era were a mess littered with split sides taking up two chart positions and denying other records an opportunity to chart.

    Why oh why couldn't they all have stuck to a record is a record comprising of two sides, end of story.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    If you take the RM chart, Donegan is at 8 & 9 and The Platters are at 6 & 10 so, on a 'combined' basis, every position below 10 is two places lower than it should be.

    So if you were compiling a composite all-combined chart would you jack up all those records two places?

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    the BBC just took the easy way out for split sides and considered only the highest placed
    I stand corrected. If they had done that at this time, when all charts were liable to separate, it would have produced bizarre results. With 'The Platters' above, the separators can't even agree on which side is the highest placed!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 29th 1956

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 29th 1956 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 20 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton 1 1 1 4350
    2 2 Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day 2 2 2 4205
    3 3 Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets 4 3 3 3995
    4 4 Ying Tong Song / Bloodnok's Rock'n'Roll Call - The Goons 3 6 4 3940
    16 5 Hound Dog - Elvis Presley 5 5 5 3770
    11 6 A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine 8 4 7 3475
    8 7 The Great Pretender - The Platters (A) 13 6 3258
    9 8 Bring A Little Water Sylvie - Lonnie Donegan (B) 12 8 3125
    7 9 A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer 10 6 11 3065
    10 10 Only You - The Platters (B) 11 10 2993
    6 11 Walk Hand In Hand - Tony Martin 9 10 14 2870
    12 12 The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets 11 16 12 2740
    15 13 Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan (A) 19 9 2665
    19 14 Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets 13 14 13 2590
    13 15 Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme 12 15 15 2515
    5 16 Why Do Fools Fall In Love - The Teenagers 14 8 17 2405
    14 17 Born To be With You - The Chordettes 15 8 16 2400
    17 18 Serenade - Slim Whitman 18 20 1505
    30 19 When Mexico Gave Up The Rumba - Mitchell Torok 23 18 1300
    NEW 20 Giddy-Up-A-Ding-Dong - Freddie Bell and The Bell Boys 16 20 1195
    NEW 21 Razzle Dazzle - Bill Haley and His Comets 17 910
    24 22 I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino 29 19 850
    26 23 Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis Presley 22 18 845
    23 24 See You later Alligator - Bill Haley and His Comets 19 780
    22 24 By The Fountains Of Rome - Edmund Hockridge 19 780
    NEW 26 Glendora - Perry Como (B) 25 17 670
    21 27 I Want You I Need You I Love You - Elvis Presley 21 650
    RE 28 Be-Bop-A-Lula - Gene Vincent 24 455
    NEW 29 More - Perry Como (A) 26 325
    NEW 29 More - Jimmy Young 26 325
    Glendora - Glen Mason 28 195
    18 I Almost Lost My Mind - Pat Boone 30 65
    Only You - The Great Pretender - The Platters 6
    Bring A Little Water Sylvie / Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan 7
    20 I'll Be Home - Pat Boone
    25 The Wayward Wind - Tex Ritter
    27 You Are My First Love - Ruby Murray
    28 Love Me As Though There Were No Tomorrow - Nat King Cole
    29 By The Fountains Of Rome - David Hughes

    Leave a comment:

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