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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • I forgot that Robbie, that Paul McCartney produced The Bonzo record. He also produced Mary Hopkin's Days and Goodbye still to come.

    Comment


    • The weightings proposed for 1960-64 look sensible to me.

      I do feel uneasy about invoking a special rule for number ones, and feel that wherever possible rules should apply to the whole chart to avoid the impression of a 'fix'. Ignoring maverick positions that were more than 4 places adrift from any other chart would have been such a general rule.

      Obviously this was more of a problem for the BBC chart where, without weightings, they had to invoke it more often. But if they'd had the maverick rule I suggest, this would have obviated the need for them to invoke a special rule for number one - because if a record is number one in 3 charts it only fails to be number one overall if the 4th chart places it below number 4. (So if a record is 1115 it can be beaten by record that is 2221.)

      Comment


      • Your points certainly made me think Splodj. On initial consideration they seem to have merit, but how did you come about deciding on 4 places adrift, what was your reasoning behind that number and say not 3 or 5 ?. My concern with such a system is that if you ignore a maverick position how then do you determine and allocate points from that particular chart. It would disadvantage that particular record to not be awarded points from it affecting the overall average.

        For example take The Beatles Can't Buy Me Love, chart positions, 1 1 1 and 8, if you discount the 8, The Beatles would enter the chart at 4 despite being #1 on all other three charts as it would have no points from RR. So how would you compensate for this ? It's one of these considerations that sound really good in theory but not in practise as it would mean a wholesale manipulation of all charts the very thing both you and I are trying to prevent.

        A composite chart, whichever, system was chosen for compilation needs rules in order that fairness is not just applied but is also seen to be applied, that is why from the outset I specified in my opening post how #1's, ties, LP's, EP's, and split sides would be managed throughout the project to demonstrate openness and transparency in the application of the rules.

        Working with that system I think has demonstrated credibility and consistency throughout reflecting in the correct #1 record throughout the years thus far compiled.

        Comment


        • The excellent way that you deal with EPs is the same way I would deal with mavericks. So with Can't Buy Me Love it would be given 30 points for RR as the average of the other 3.

          The reason I say 'more than 4 places adrift' is because if it is less than this the RR maverick effect does not prevent a number one in the other 3 charts from being number one in the composite chart. If a record is 1115 it can be beaten by one that is 2221, but if a record is 1114 there is no possible way that another record could score enough to prevent that record from being number one in the composite chart. (To keep it simple the 'composite chart' in these examples is one of equal weighting.) In other words, it is the margin at which the BBC needed to invoke their odd-one-out rule.
          Last edited by Splodj; Sun November 29, 2020, 16:18.

          Comment


          • Good discussion. I can't say which method is the best, but it's good to think deep thoughts and kick things around. As a math guy, I'm always intrigued by the various possibilities/probabilities of any situation.

            2 other thoughts: (1) throw out the outlier position for EVERY charted record, no matter which chart it outlier-ed on. (2) Throw out RR for the times it was obviously the worst chart, say 1960 to 1966 or whenever it was. RR more than any other chart was slow on big movers up (not just debut moves into #1), and slow on big movers down, before finally getting better and agreeing more with the other charts.

            Or, as Splodj said again, possibly have no special rules at all, just weight and average, and lettum fall where they fall.

            Which is the most fair thing to do? What are the pluses and minuses of each option? I have no idea, ha...

            Comment


            • At times the outlier is obvious, BUT, what is the outlier if the four charts specify 3 4 3 4 ? or if placing a record at #7 and the three charts after 67 specify 6,7,8 or, placing a record at 10 and the positions are 9, 10, 5, 15. This is where using such a system seems simple at first but becomes complicated. I considered this away back in June when I started and decided against it for the reason stated above.

              I believed then and I believe now that the methodology has to be fair, straightforward, yet accurate and credible at the same time and I have strove since June to keep it so.

              Credibility and an objective approach would be lost if I tampered too much using poetic license. Weaker chart it may well be but a true averaged chart needs to reflect RR as well, like it or not it was the 4th major chart and like I said before the others pulled it centre stage negating extremes (as with any other outlier on any chart)

              I feel as though I'm swimming against the tide of opinion on this though when so much work has already gone into it.
              Last edited by MrTibbs; Sun November 29, 2020, 20:33.

              Comment


              • I'm in agreement with you about a straightforward points based listing with no allowances for deviation* for an outlier chart. As an averaged chart it should simply reflect the average of all its constituent charts with an appropriate adjustment for the relative size of the sample base for each chart.

                * I wasn't aware of the "number 1" rule until 'Eloise' was affected by it and must have overlooked the mention of the rule back in June when you were explaining the methodology used to compile the chart. However, as the total points for each title is listed I can still see which record would be top had the number 1 rule not been in place.

                Comment


                • Brian, you're not swimming against my opinion. I fully support you, this thread, your calcs. Go with the flow, rock on...

                  Being a math guy, I just think of different possibilities, that's all. I've been thinking about this stuff for years, as you called to my attention an old post of mine from 2014 I think. Just pondering, entertaining ideas, possibly with no hope of ever resolving any of them, ha.

                  Comment


                  • Yes we had a healthy discussion of hierachy methods in the "Pick and Top of the Pops" No 1's thread.

                    I also did not notice the number one rule in the original post setting out the methodology. It was updated on the day the chart was posted with Can't Buy Me Love entering at number one, so I presume that update was to add the number one rule.

                    But it is a minor point and I offer my full support to whatever is decided.

                    Also as I've said this was more of a problem for the unweighted BBC chart. I can imagine the embarrassment when it was all over the newspapers that Hand had shot straight in at number one and it didn't on their chart because of RR, and they decided something had to be done.

                    I believe there were 7 records in which RR were isolated in not putting them at number one:
                    - I Want To Hold Your Hand - RR 10
                    - Can't Buy Me Love - RR 8
                    - House Of The Rising Sun - RR 6
                    - I Feel Fine - RR 6
                    - The Last Time - RR 6
                    - Ticket To Ride - RR 11

                    I do think it was right for the BBC to set aside the RR maverick positions on their 6 occasions and for Brian to do it on the smaller number of cases needed in the Ultimate.
                    Last edited by Splodj; Mon November 30, 2020, 10:47.

                    Comment


                    • I understand this is a predicament. Brian has made a lot of right decisions during this project and none wrong. It’s also Brian who has the most thorough insight into this matter. He’s doing an outstanding job here and with complete transparency. You have my full support Brian!

                      Comment


                      • I do in all honesty respect the points you guys have made, it was never going to be an easy task from the outset and whatever method was chosen was always going to be a bit controversial and have alternative compilation systems promoted.
                        My goal from the start was simply to have a more thorough, accurate, less error ridden averaged chart than the BBC chart. Using the added layer of store returns would gave the new averaged chart more depth and substance, and it has achieved that goal.
                        The evidence lies in the comparison with the BBC chart, it is not hugely different just subtle differences ironing out ties, errors like missed charts, missed records, miscalculations, and poor calculation overall.

                        The UAC is, and can only ever be, as good as the information used to compile it. The music paper charts were a 'reflection' on what records were broadly selling, at times they were flawed themselves, all of them, made errors that were never corrected, had questionable entries at times, had strange patterns of movement, split sides, some with EP's and LP's and some with none, but, they are what we have to work with as the only guide as to what was in and out.

                        I do agree with one thing about the BBC charts, by averaging all the major charts together you find a centre ground, the majority will balance out an error made in any individual chart thus giving a more robust outcome.

                        Without a doubt the biggest bone of contention was always going to be over the #1 record. This was easy when all charts agreed, but when there was disagreement between the charts this would always lead to speculation and disagreement between chart followers.
                        So what to do. I considered all the options you guys mentioned but finally settled on No. of charts. To solve this specific problem I decided to consider all charts as equals as far as the #1 record went as in the stores they sampled that was obviously the outcome, so it followed that the #1 record when there was a difference of opinion should be the number of charts placing that record at the summit, fair, transparent and without manipulating or excluding other chart positions to achieve it.

                        There has only ever been a handful of cases anyway where this has been in dispute thus far, 2 I think, The Monkees in July 1967 and now Barry Ryan.

                        Bear with me guys as I continue to strive to give you if not the best chart, then the best chart possible based on what we have. I know I get a bit frustrated at times when I think my efforts are not fully appreciated but challenge is healthy and when the frustration passes I realise that and consider your comments.

                        Now, I have work to do on 1960 which you will be getting from this incoming weekend, and believe me 64 to 69 was a breeze compared to these earlier years. Chart positions are all over the place, lots of split sides, so the averaging system was really much needed here.

                        Meantime though lets get on with finishing posting 68/69 to February.

                        PS a number of you have expressed interest after this entire project is completed in seeing how the UAC would look without RR, so my next project will letting you have those charts too.

                        Brian



                        Comment


                        • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                          Just outside this week's Top 30 you will notice Aphrodite's Child with Rain And Tears featuring future solo chart acts Vangelis and Demis Roussos.

                          There are again13 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

                          Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 7th 1968.

                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 7th 1968 NME MM RR Total
                          Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
                          Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                          1 1 The Good The Bad And The Ugly - Hugo Montenegro 1 2 1 1 15850
                          5 2 Lily The Pink - The Scaffold 2 1 2 2 15715
                          2 3 Eloise - Barry Ryan 3 3 3 3 14980
                          3 4 This Old Heart Of Mine - The Isley Brothers 4 4 4 4 14445
                          4 5 Breaking Down The Walls Of Heartache - The Bandwagon 5 5 6 5 13660
                          15 6 One Two Three O'Leary - Des O'Connor 6 7 5 6 13425
                          8 7 Ain't Got No..I Got Life - Nina Simone 7 6 8 7 12790
                          6 8 Elenore - The Turtles 8= 9 7 10 12185
                          9 9 I'm A Tiger - Lulu 8= 8 9 9 11970
                          14 10 May I Have The Next Dream With You - Malcolm Roberts 10 12 10 8 11005
                          22 11 Build Me Up Buttercup - The Foundations 12= 10 12 14 10395
                          7 12 All Along The Watchtower - The Jimi Hendrix Experience 11 13 11 11 10300
                          13 13 Harper Valley P.T.A. - Jeannie C. Riley 12= 11 13 12 10115
                          11 14 If I Knew Then What I Know Now - Val Doonican 15 14 14 20 8585
                          20 15 I'm The Urban Spaceman - The Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band 14 17 15 13 8330
                          25 16 Race With The Devil - The Gun 16 16 18 15 7610
                          12 17 Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin 17 19 16 16 7425
                          10 18 With A Little Help From My Friends - Joe Cocker 18 20 17 18 6805
                          28 19 A Minute Of Your Time - Tom Jones 21 15 21 26 6125
                          16 20 Only One Woman - The Marbles 19 23 19 17 5790
                          27 21 Love Child - Diana Ross and The Supremes 20 21 20 19 5770
                          NEW 22 Private Number - William Bell and Judy Clay 22 18 24 23 5030
                          NEW 23 Sabre Dance - Love Sculpture 23 22 23 22 4565
                          17 24 Light My Fire - Jose Feliciano 24 28 22 21 3700
                          19 25 You're All I Need To Get By - Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell 25 26 26 27 2590
                          18 26 Little Arrows - Leapy Lee 26 25 24 2095
                          NEW 27 Quick Joey Small - The Kazenetz-Katz Singing Orchestral Circus 28 25 1200
                          21 28 Mexico - Long John Baldry 27 1000
                          NEW 29 Atlantis - Donovan 29= 26 1000
                          26 30 Les Bicyclettes De Belsize - Engelbert Humperdinck 27 30 30 25 960
                          The Beatles (LP) - The Beatles 24 1400
                          Don't Forget To Catch Me - Cliff Richard 28 750
                          I'm In A Different World - The Four Tops 29= 29 28 655
                          Yours Until Tomorrow - Gene Pitney 29 500
                          Rain And Tears - Aphrodite's Child 29 170
                          Hey Jude - The Beatles 30 85

                          Comment


                          • Splodj, I believe you can add A Hard Days Night and Help to your list above both debuting at #1 on all charts except RR

                            Comment


                            • Thanks Brian. I will be fascinated to see what the next period brings, particularly 1963 - which was a magical Beatles year when the Lennon/McCartney gems came tumbling out. Although they reached great heights in future years, there is nothing quite like the atmosphere of what they produced when Lennon was still happy!

                              Just imagine if there had been a book of these charts in the 70s to challenge the Guinness ones. I would like to think that most fair-minded people would have recognised these as the more 'official' ones!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                                Splodj, I believe you can add A Hard Days Night and Help to your list above both debuting at #1 on all charts except RR
                                You are absolutely right and I should have included them in my list as described.

                                However, A Hard Days Night was 3 on RR so the BBC didn't need to override their normal calculations. With Help they did; spookily it was a case of 1115 versus 2221 which I gave in the example above as the tipping point.

                                These two illustrate perfectly what I was trying to say - that the problem did not arise simply because RR was odd-one-out, but only when it was adrift by a large margin.
                                Last edited by Splodj; Mon November 30, 2020, 13:11.

                                Comment


                                • So, broadly we are all singing from the same hymn sheet here. Interesting point Splodge about the UAC being used instead of Guinness lol, they are certainly more 'official' than the 'official'.

                                  Late 1963 was also the year when I really got into music at the age of 10 and I have to thank The Beatles for that. I had heard everything that had gone before either on Luxembourg or records my parents bought but suddenly I heard She Loves You and I was catapulted into a world of music that enveloped me and never looked back.

                                  I got She Loves You and the Twist And Shout EP for Christmas that year and a few days later went and got myself I Want To Hold Your Hand. Magical Stuff !

                                  Comment


                                  • One of my memories of 1963 is going into a friend's house and seeing Beatles records which the family were buying in anticipation of the day that they could afford something to play them on!

                                    By the way, it could be claimed (at a stretch!) that the first time a Lennon/McCartney composition got into the charts was in March 1962 when the album ‘Adam Faith’ skirted the LP Top 20, because the middle eight of the track “I’ve Just Fallen For Someone” was written by John Lennon (but uncredited).

                                    Comment


                                    • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                                      I agree with Robbie's comment earlier in that Diana Ross and The Supremes Love Child was their strongest single in well over a year. All singles since Reflections in the summer of 1967 had been really weak by their standards.
                                      It was a real pity that Apple didn't release The Beatles original Ob-La-Di-Ob-La-Da as a single as it was far and away the best version. I think The Bedrock's version, still to chart, was even superior to Marmalade's.
                                      In too comes the sublime preacher Man from Dusty Springfield. Sheer Class ! Little did we know that was gonna be her last Top 30 single until the eighties come back, and magic also materialised this week in the form of Fleetwood Mac's Albatross. Bellissimo !

                                      There are 10 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

                                      Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 14th 1968.

                                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 14th 1968 NME MM RR Total
                                      Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
                                      Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                      2 1 Lily The Pink - The Scaffold 1 1 1 1 16050
                                      1 2 The Good The Bad And The Ugly - Hugo Montenegro 2 2 2 2 15515
                                      6 3 One Two Three O'Leary - Des O'Connor 3 3 3 4 14895
                                      7 4 Ain't Got No..I Got Life - Nina Simone 4 5 4 3 14330
                                      11 5 Build Me Up Buttercup - The Foundations 5 4 5 5 14110
                                      4 6 This Old Heart Of Mine - The Isley Brothers 6 8 5 7 13140
                                      3 7 Eloise - Barry Ryan 7 10 7 8 12155
                                      5 8 Breaking Down The Walls Of Heartache - The Bandwagon 8= 6 10 10 12035
                                      10 9 May I Have The Next Dream With You - Malcolm Roberts 8= 9 8 9 12020
                                      9 10 I'm A Tiger - Lulu 10= 7 9 12 11915
                                      15 11 I'm The Urban Spaceman - The Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band 10= 11 11 6 11125
                                      8 12 Elenore - The Turtles 12 12 12 14 9995
                                      23 13 Sabre Dance - Love Sculpture 13 13 16 11 9050
                                      16 14 Race With The Devil - The Gun 14 15 14 13 8980
                                      13 15 Harper Valley P.T.A. - Jeannie C. Riley 15 16 13 15 8860
                                      19 16 A Minute Of Your Time - Tom Jones 16 14 17 16 8175
                                      21 17 Love Child - Diana Ross and The Supremes 17 18 15 17 7790
                                      22 18 Private Number - William Bell and Judy Clay 18 17 20 19 6570
                                      14 19 If I Knew Then What I Know Now - Val Doonican 19 19 18 21 6500
                                      12 20 All Along The Watchtower - The Jimi Hendrix Experience 20 20 19 23 5880
                                      NEW 21 Ob-La-Di-Ob-La-Da - The Marmalade 22 22 22 22 4815
                                      17 22 Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin 21 26 21 18 4605
                                      NEW 23 Son Of A Preacher Man - Dusty Springfield 23 21 25 24 4095
                                      NEW 24 Albatross - Fleetwood Mac 24 28 23 20 3535
                                      NEW 25 Don't Forget To Catch Me - Cliff Richard 26 27 24 29 2720
                                      27 26 Quick Joey Small - The Kasenetz-Katz Singing Orchestral Circus 25 23 28 27 2690
                                      18 27 With A Little Help From My Friends - Joe Cocker 27= 26 25 1760
                                      30 28 Les Bicyclettes De Belsize - Engelbert Humperdinck 27= 25 26 1625
                                      29 29 Atlantis - Donovan 29 24 1400
                                      20 30 Only One Woman - The Marbles 27 30 1085
                                      The Beatles (LP) - The Beatles 29 400
                                      You're All I Need To Get By - Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell 30= 29 28 755
                                      Little Arrows - Leapy Lee 30= 30 30 450

                                      Comment


                                      • Interesting to see that the NME were still charting albums on the singles chart as late as December 1968. Is 'The Beatles' album the last that charted?
                                        Last edited by Robbie; Mon November 30, 2020, 18:40.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
                                          Interesting to see that the NME were still charting albums on the singles chart as late as December 1968. Is 'The Beatles' album the last that charted?
                                          I believe it was Robbie. Abbey Road didn't chart on the singles chart in 1969 and nothing afterwards either.

                                          Comment


                                          • Again the BBC chart appears to make no sense in the lower reaches. Marvin Gaye & Tammi Terrell (- 29 28) being equal at 30 with Leapy Lee (30 30 -)!!!, whereas The Marbles (- 27 30) which would really be equal on points to Marvin Gaye & Tammi Terrell not showing?
                                            Last edited by braindeadpj; Mon November 30, 2020, 23:01.

                                            Comment


                                            • Yeah I noticed that too on entering the figures brain. Another BBC miscalculation there.

                                              Comment


                                              • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                                                There are 11 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

                                                Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 21st 1968.

                                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 21st 1968 NME MM RR Total
                                                Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
                                                Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                                1 1 Lily The Pink - The Scaffold 1 1 1 1 16050
                                                4 2 Ain't Got No..I Got Life - Nina Simone 2 4 2 2 15115
                                                3 3 One Two Three O'Leary - Des O'Connor 3 2 3 4 15095
                                                5 4 Build Me Up Buttercup - The Foundations 4 3 5 3 14480
                                                2 5 The Good The Bad And The Ugly - Hugo Montenegro 5 5 4 6 14075
                                                11 6 I'm The Urban Spaceman - The Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band 6 6 7 5 13210
                                                9 7 May I Have The Next Dream With You - Malcolm Roberts 8 7 6 15 12410
                                                13 8 Sabre Dance - Love Sculpture 7 8 8 7 12390
                                                10 9 I'm A Tiger - Lulu 9= 9 9 12 11515
                                                8 10 Breaking Down The Walls Of Heartache - The Bandwagon 11 10 10 11 11150
                                                14 11 Race With The Devil - The Gun 9= 10 12 8 10905
                                                6 12 This Old Heart Of Mine - The Isley Brothers 12= 16 11 10 9785
                                                16 13 A Minute Of Your Time - Tom Jones 14 12 13 16 9575
                                                21 14 Ob-La-Di-Ob-La-Da - The Marmalade 12= 13 15 9 9470
                                                7 15 Eloise - Barry Ryan 15 14 14 18 8755
                                                24 16 Albatross - Fleetwood Mac 16 15 19 13 7730
                                                15 17 Harper Valley P.T.A. - Jeannie C. Riley 17 17 17 17 7490
                                                17 18 Love Child - Diana Ross and The Supremes 18= 19 16 19 7170
                                                18 19 Private Number - William Bell and Judy Clay 18= 18 22 14 6295
                                                23 20 Son Of A Preacher Man - Dusty Springfield 20 20 19 20 6135
                                                12 21 Elenore - The Turtles 21 21 18 21 6100
                                                19 22 If I Knew Then What I Know Now - Val Doonican 22 22 21 24 4895
                                                26 23 Quick Joey Small - The Kasenetz-Katz Singing Orchestral Circus 23 23 24 22 4115
                                                22 24 Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin 24 27 23 23 3480
                                                NEW 25 Stop Her On Sight (SOS) - Edwin Starr 25 24 28 25 2660
                                                25 26 Don't Forget To Catch Me - Cliff Richard 26 28 26 28 2105
                                                20 27 All Along The Watchtower - The Jimi Hendrix Experience 28= 24 1750
                                                NEW 28 Ob-La-Di-Ob-La-Da - The Bedrocks 28= 26 29 1500
                                                NEW 29 I Shall Be Released - The Tremeloes 27 25 29 1370
                                                NEW 30 Something's Happening - Herman's Hermits 30 27 1200
                                                Atlantis - Donovan 28= 29 26 825
                                                I'm In A Different World - The Four Tops 27 340
                                                On Mother Kelly's Doorstep - Danny La Rue 30 250
                                                Toy - The Casuals 30 200
                                                With A Little Help From My Friends - Joe Cocker 30 85

                                                Comment


                                                • Brian when you start posting the new early 60's UAC I would start it on a new thread. It will be easier for people to follow them rather than sticking them end of the 1969 chart. Same too for the one without retailer!
                                                  You can post the link(s) to the next UAC on the end of this thread.
                                                  Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                                  Comment


                                                  • 14 Ob-La-Di-Ob-La-Da - The Marmalade
                                                    The Beatles should have issued this track in the UK, as it was released in a lot of European countries. Missed out a number one.

                                                    Comment

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