The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[MrTibbs]

It was a real shame about Tony Jasper's book. It was the first book of it's kind back in 1976 to give a weekly listing of any chart to date but it missed a trick. I don't know if it had been rushed out, or just not checked carefully enough, but as you know by now it was riddled with errors.

When dealing with thousands and thousands of numbers I know (from first hand experience) you need to take special care as it is easy to erroneously type in a wrong number and the odd typo could have been forgiven, but, unfortunately the book had so many errors it couldn't be completely trusted to be taken seriously as an accurate reference book. A pity as it was a great opportunity wasted.

I was so frustrated with it that I actually took mine down to the newspaper library (at Colindale at that time) and went through every weekly RM chart correcting the book as I went along.

[Splodj]

Note the typo error in both, BRMB instead of BMRB, ugh...

BRMB was the name of the commercial radio station in Birmingham; they should have claimed their royalties!

[Splodj]

At least Tony Jasper made the right choice for the 1960-62 period when he could have gone with either RM or RR.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Just to summarize from my earlier post (# 74 on Alan Smith's UK Chart History thread "updated chart history"), 3 pre-Guinness chart books series used the following charts for their history before Feb 1969:

--Rock File, 5 books beginning 1972:
NME 1955-58
RM 1958-62
RR 1962-69

--Tony Jasper, 9 books beginning 1976:
NME none
RM 1955-62
RR 1962-69

--Record Hits, 2 books beginning June 1977:
NME 1954-55
RM 1956-62
RR 1962-69

All 3 different (and different from Guinness/'official'), though all 3 have in common RM 1958-62 and RR 1962-69.

I've read somewhere that NME wouldn't grant their chart rights to one or more books, as NME was planning to print their own chart books, which they eventually did beginning in 1992 (2 each of singles and albums). So it could have been that the above 3 books series wanted to use NME for more chart history, but NME wouldn't allow it. And/or MM.

I'll throw these in for the newbie readers amongst us:

--Guinness, 19 editions beginning Nov 1977 to 2006:
NME 1952-1960
RR 1960-1969

--Official Charts, 50s/60s charts declared 'official' in/after 2001:
same as Guinness

[Splodj]

My preference would have been the BBC chart; even with all the warts it is better than any individual music paper and represents what millions saw and heard as 'the' chart at the time.

If reduced to choosing between music papers, I think NME then MM from April 62. If MM could have included the 31-50s that were calculated but not published all the better.

[MrTibbs]

Interesting.

I would go with RM from January 56 as NME had a handful of dodgy #1's in the late fifties that never topped any other chart, Kay Starr, Tommy Edwards, Vic Damone, Jane Morgan to name a few.

Then MM from July 1960 when it upped its sample to 110, making it the biggest sample of all the papers and the MM invested heavily in its chart service from then. MM was also from then the only paper to include Northern Ireland in its sample.

MM was also the chart carried by most daily newspapers.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

There are 9 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 16th 1960.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 16th 1960								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	38	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	My Old Man's A Dustman - Lonnie Donegan					1	1	1	2	1	1	7702
4	2	Stuck On You - Elvis Presley					2	2	2	1	2	6	7400
2	3	Fall In Love With You / Willie And The Hand Jive - Cliff Richard					3	3	3	3	3	2	7254
5	4	Handy Man - Jimmy Jones					4	4	4	4	4	3	6996
8	5	Do You Mind - Anthony Newley					5	5	5	5	6	4	6688
6	6	Theme From 'A Summer Place' - Percy Faith					6	7	7	6	5	7	6330
7	7	Fings Ain't Wot They Used To Be - Max Bygraves					7	6	6	9	8	5	6266
3	8	Running Bear - Johnny Preston					8	9	8	7	7	9	5912
10	9	Beatnik Fly - Johnny and The Hurricanes					9	8	9	8	9	8	5824
9	10	Delaware - Perry Como					10	13	11	10	10	13	5028
15	11	Clementine - Bobby Darin					11	10	14	15	11	11	4908
13	12	Wild One - Bobby Rydell					12=	12	13	16	12	14	4630
11	13	You Got What It Takes - Marv Johnson					12=	14	15	11	13	10	4610
12	14	What In The World's Come Over You - Jack Scott					16	17	18	12	14	15	3952
NEW	15	Someone Else's Baby / Big Time - Adam Faith					14	11	12	13		24	3634
23	16	Sweet Nothin's - Brenda Lee					15	15	10	14		18	3576
24	17	He'll Have To Go - Jim Reeves					18	20	19	20	15	16	3268
NEW	18	Cathy's Clown - The Everly Brothers					17	16	16	17		22	2902
17	19	Hit And Miss - The John Barry Seven						22	20		16	12	2700
27	20	Footsteps - Steve Lawrence					19	22	17	19	18		2666
18	21	Looking High High High - Bryan Johnson					20	18		18	20	20	2414
19	22	Country Boy - Fats Domino						19			19	19	1920
14	23	Poor Me - Adam Faith						21			17	17	1920
21	24	Be Mine - Lance Fortune						25				21	780
26	25	Stairway To Heaven - Neil Sedaka						24					560
25	26	Who Could Be Bluer - Jerry Lordan						26				26	550
16	27	On A Slow Boat To China - Emile Ford and The Checkmates						29				23	400
20	28	Summer Set - Mr. Acker Bilk						27					320
RE	29	Bonnie Came Back - Duane Eddy										25	180
NEW	30	Valentino - Connie Francis										27	120
		Willie And The Hand Jive - Cliff Richard						28
		Colette - Billy Fury										28	90
		Why - Anthony Newley						30					80
		Pretty Blue Eyes - Craig Douglas										29	60
		Let It Be Me - The Everly Brothers										30	30

[Splodj]

I would go with RM from January 56 as NME had a handful of dodgy #1's in the late fifties that never topped any other chart, Kay Starr, Tommy Edwards, Vic Damone, Jane Morgan to name a few.

You've persuaded me over!

I used to prefer RM to NME in this period but was a bit disillusioned by their "settling in" difficulties you revealed in the other thread. But looking at it again NME did have 6 outlier number ones (the 4 you mention plus Guy Mitchell and Bobby Darin). Also, at least as damming is the fact that they omitted two strong 2 week + number ones that all the others had: Johnny Otis and Everly Brothers (Bird Dog).

[MrTibbs]

I forgot about Guy Mitchell and Bobby Darin. I really believe that by the time RM extended to a Top Twenty they had hit the ground running. Furthermore RM's chart, especially with #1 records, aligned better with MM and Disc more than NME did which went out a limb with the aforementioned records.

Although I go with MM as the stronger chart from July 60 it doesn't mean it was always perfect either. Like ALL charts it defo had blips along the way. For example did they get it wrong as the only chart to go with The Beatles Penny Lane at #1 in '67, or did they alone get it right because of the larger sample, shops they sampled, or the additional Northern Ireland sample effect.

But such are the mysteries that keep me hooked on record charts.

[MrTibbs]

Also, it occurred to me that Dave Taylor once told me that RM was a better compiled chart than NME and it was a pity that it folded. Whether that was his personal opinion or he got it from some other source he never said.

[kjell]

Melody Maker wasn’t reluctant to publish their charts when I visited them in the summer of 91. They had no plans to publish them but wouldn’t mind if I did. I contacted NME who said some of their staff was working on publishing the NME singles charts. With Guinness already on the market and NME soon to publish theirs I didn’t expect publishing the MM charts to be economically viable.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

There are 13 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 23rd 1960.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 23rd 1960								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	38	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	My Old Man's A Dustman - Lonnie Donegan					1	3	1	1	2	1	7530
2	2	Stuck On You - Elvis Presley					2	2	2	3	1	3	7464
5	3	Do You Mind - Anthony Newley					4	1	4	4	4	2	7266
3	4	Fall In Love With You / Willie And The Hand Jive - Cliff Richard					3	4	3	2	3	7	7062
4	5	Handy Man - Jimmy Jones					5	5	5	5	5	4	6738
18	6	Cathy's Clown - The Everly Brothers					6	6	6	6	7	14	6160
7	7	Fings Ain't Wot They Used To Be - Max Bygraves					8	9	9	9	8	5	5846
15	8	Someone Else's Baby / Big Time - Adam Faith					7	7	7	7	10	15	5802
6	9	Theme From 'A Summer Place' - Percy Faith					9	10	11	10	6	9	5588
9	10	Beatnik Fly - Johnny and The Hurricanes					10	12	12	8	9	12	5204
11	11	Clementine - Bobby Darin					12	13	13	14	12	8	4806
16	12	Sweet Nothin's - Brenda Lee					11	8	8	11	17	28	4770
8	13	Running Bear - Johnny Preston					14	15	16	12	11	6	4652
20	14	Footsteps - Steve Lawrence					13	14	10	15	14	20	4408
12	15	Wild One - Bobby Rydell					17	16	18	17	13	17	3832
17	16	He'll Have To Go - Jim Reeves					16	17	15	13	18	22	3684
NEW	17	Standing On The Corner - The King Brothers					15	11	14		15	26	3570
10	18	Delaware - Perry Como					18	17		20	16	16	2738
19	19	Hit And Miss - The John Barry Seven						27	19		20	10	2220
13	20	You Got What It Takes - Marv Johnson					20	20		18		11	1974
NEW	21	Tease Me / Ooh ! La La - Keith Kelly					19	25	17	16			1890
14	22	What In The World's Come Over You - Jack Scott						19				13	1500
22	23	Country Boy - Fats Domino						22			19	25	1500
23	24	Poor Me - Adam Faith						21				19	1160
NEW	25	The Heart Of A Teenage Girl - Craig Douglas							20	19			1116
NEW	26	Mack The Knife - Ella Fitzgerald						23					640
NEW	27	Cradle Of Love - Johnny Preston						23					640
21	28	Looking High High High - Bryan Johnson						26				23	640
RE	29	Why - Anthony Newley						30				18	470
25	30	Stairway To Heaven - Neil Sedaka						28				29	300
		On A Slow Boat To China - Emile Ford and The Checkmates										21	300
		Be Mine - Lance Fortune										24	210
		Standing On The Corner - The Four Lads						29					160
		A Voice In The Wilderness - Cliff Richard										27	120
		Summer Set - Mr. Acker Bilk										30	30

[MrTibbs]

Chart Commentary

The #1 position is split with three records topping the five charts but Lonnie holds firm topping three of the five.

Elvis stalls at #2 to be overtaken soon by both Anthony Newley and The Everly Brothers the latter taking a big jump into the top ten this week.

In comes Ella Fitzgerald, the 'First Lady Of Song' , and The King Brothers getting the jump on The Four Lads, Johnny Preston, Craig Douglas, and an instantly forgettable record from Keith Kelly.

[Splodj]

Melody Maker wasn’t reluctant to publish their charts when I visited them in the summer of 91.

That is interesting. I suppose it was a matter of timing. If MM had put out a book in 1970 ('Charts of the Sixties' or suchlike) I think it would have sold well. Even if it didn't it might have put down a marker for their charts to be used in future.

[Splodj]

6 - Cathy's Clown - The Everly Brothers

Cathy’s Clown is often cited as an inspiration for the Beatles. I imagine the slow Orbinsony version of Please Please Me that they demoed to George Martin on 4-Sep-62 had at least a passing resemblance to it.

[MrTibbs]

That would have been a smart me by MM . It would have been a first time a book of any charts would have been made available commercially and would have laid down a marker as you suggest.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

There are 7 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 30th 1960.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 30th 1960								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	38	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
3	1	Do You Mind - Anthony Newley					1	2	2	1	1	1	7600
6	2	Cathy's Clown - The Everly Brothers					2	1	1	2	5	4	7412
4	3	Fall In Love With You / Willie And The Hand Jive - Cliff Richard					3	5	4	3	3	5	6944
8	4	Someone Else's Baby / Big Time - Adam Faith					4	3	3	7	7	3	6872
5	5	Handy Man - Jimmy Jones					6	4	5	5	6	6	6708
1	6	My Old Man's A Dustman - Lonnie Donegan					7	6	7	6	4	2	6610
2	7	Stuck On You - Elvis Presley					5	8	6	4	2	7	6536
12	8	Sweet Nothin's - Brenda Lee					8	9	8	8	8	8	5854
17	9	Standing On The Corner - The King Brothers					9	7	9	9	11	12	5646
7	10	Fings Ain't Wot They Used To Be - Max Bygraves					10	10	12	10	10	9	5328
9	11	Theme From 'A Summer Place' - Percy Faith					11	11	13	16	9	10	4980
14	12	Footsteps - Steve Lawrence					12	13	11	13	13	15	4704
NEW	13	Shazam - Duane Eddy					13	12	10	11	18	21	4490
10	14	Beatnik Fly - Johnny and The Hurricanes					14	16	14	12	12	17	4312
15	15	Wild One - Bobby Rydell					15	17	19	15	14	11	3898
11	16	Clementine - Bobby Darin					16	18	19	17	15	13	3632
16	17	He'll Have To Go - Jim Reeves					17=	20	16	19	19	14	3346
22	18	What In The World's Come Over You - Jack Scott					19	21	18	14		18	2616
13	19	Running Bear - Johnny Preston					17=	15			16	16	2480
21	20	Tease Me / Ooh La La ! - Keith Kelly						25	17	20			1738
27	21	Cradle Of Love - Johnny Preston						14				23	1600
19	22	Hit And Miss - The John Barry Seven						22			20	20	1600
18	23	Delaware - Perry Como						25			17	19	1540
25	24	The Heart Of A Teenage Girl - Craig Douglas					20		15	18			1454
26	25	Mack The Knife - Ella Fitzgerald						19				30	990
30	26	Stairway To Heaven - Neil Sedaka						23				26	790
20	27	You Got What It Takes - Marv Johnson						24				27	680
24	28	Poor Me - Adam Faith						28				22	510
28	29	Looking High High High - Bryan Johnson						29				24	370
NEW	30	Standing On The Corner - The Four Lads						27					320
		Country Boy - Fats Domino										25	180
		Why - Anthony Newley										28	90
		Chattanooga Choo Choo - Ernie Fields						30					80
		On A Slow Boat To China - Emile Ford and The Checkmates										29	60

[MrTibbs]

Chart Commentary

As mentioned last time Elvis's challenge crumbles and down he topples to #7 but Lonnie's fall from the chart summit is even more dramatic and he plummets all the way to #6.

Anthony Newley manages to take #1. He also holds this position in 3 of the 5 charts while the Everly's take the other 2.

[BrainDamageII]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 30th 1960.

1 Do You Mind - Anthony Newley
2 Cathy's Clown - The Everly Brothers
3 Fall In Love With You / Willie And The Hand Jive - Cliff Richard

Well, this is it. The chart the week I was born!!!!!

[brian05]

For example did they get it wrong as the only chart to go with The Beatles Penny Lane at #1 in '67, or did they alone get it right because of the larger sample, shops they sampled, or the additional Northern Ireland sample effect.

As one who lives in Northern Ireland I would like to think it was us Beatles fans who put Penny Lane to no. 1 in Melody Maker for 3 weeks in February 1967.

But seriously I don't think so because the population of NI was only 1.5m in 1967 and there were few record shops then. Did MM sample Boots, Woolworths or Smyths (local independent chain - not WH Smith)? Most record shops were independent electrical shops.

[Splodj]

If it is any indication of what happened in Northern Ireland, Penny Lane didn't make it to the top in Ireland either.

[MrTibbs]

Well, this is it. The chart the week I was born!!!!!

Well at least u had a decent #2 in that top three Brain

[MrTibbs]

As one who lives in Northern Ireland I would like to think it was us Beatles fans who put Penny Lane to no. 1 in Melody Maker for 3 weeks in February 1967.

But seriously I don't think so because the population of NI was only 1.5m in 1967 and there were few record shops then. Did MM sample Boots, Woolworths or Smyths (local independent chain - not WH Smith)? Most record shops were independent electrical shops.

No, I'm pretty sure MM didn't sample those stores back then Brian and defo not Woolworths as they only started to give sales info to BMRB from 1975.

[Graham76man]

No, I'm pretty sure MM didn't sample those stores back then Brian and defo not Woolworths as they only started to give sales info to BMRB from 1975.

That's quite right. There's an article in one of the Record Mirror's, which reveals the attitude to major stores reluctance to give sales information. One company executive was adamant that they wouldn't give sales information out on the pretext that it was like giving details to competitors. Plus when supermarkets started selling records the sales of records just went down as "non food items".
Even back in the 70's one store might represent a whole city. A record rep on a forum told me that only Bradley's Records was the chart shop for Sheffield. That would have been in the middle 70's. It was too difficult to spot a BMRB chart shop. Since the diary was often seen on display in the shops.
As for the earlier chart compilers, you could purchase a list of the shops at the time. I suspect copies will be around somewhere of these. It's just a question of where to look for them?

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

There are 8 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending May 7th 1960.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 7th 1960								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	38	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
2	1	Cathy's Clown - The Everly Brothers					1	1	1	1	1	1	7740
1	2	Do You Mind - Anthony Newley					2	3	2	2	2	2	7402
4	3	Someone Else's Baby / Big Time - Adam Faith					3	2	3	4	4	3	7216
3	4	Fall In Love With You / Willie And The Hand Jive - Cliff Richard					4	4	4	3	3	5	7024
5	5	Handy Man - Jimmy Jones					5	5	5	5	5	6	6678
7	6	Stuck On You - Elvis Presley					6	6	8	6	6	8	6270
8	7	Sweet Nothin's - Brenda Lee					7	8	7	7	7	7	6112
9	8	Standing On The Corner - The King Brothers					9	6	10	10	9	4	5968
6	9	My Old Man's A Dustman - Lonnie Donegan					10	10	9	9	8	9	5646
13	10	Shazam - Duane Eddy					8	9	6	8	10	16	5634
12	11	Footsteps - Steve Lawrence					11	11	11	12	11	10	5152
11	12	Theme From 'A Summer Place' - Percy Faith					14=	13	16	15	13	11	4448
21	13	Cradle Of Love - Johnny Preston					13	12	13	16	14	18	4410
14	14	Beatnik Fly - Johnny and The Hurricanes					12	16	15	11	12	13	4410
24	15	The Heart Of A Teenage Girl - Craig Douglas					14=	14	12	13	18	27	3954
10	16	Fings Ain't Wot They Used To Be - Max Bygraves					16	15	18	18	16	14	3814
17	17	He'll Have To Go - Jim Reeves					18=	20	17	17	20	17	3222
16	18	Clementine - Bobby Darin					18=	18		20	15	12	2828
20	19	Tease Me / Ooh La La ! - Keith Kelly					17	22	14	14			2386
15	20	Wild One - Bobby Rydell					20	19			17	15	2140
25	21	Mack The Knife - Ella Fitzgerald						17	20			26	1930
18	22	What In The World's Come Over You - Jack Scott						24		19		23	1256
26	23	Stairway To Heaven - Neil Sedaka						21				20	1130
19	24	Running Bear - Johnny Preston						23				19	1000
23	25	Delaware - Perry Como						29			19	24	970
28	26	Poor Me - Adam Faith						25				21	780
NEW	27	Greenfields - The Brothers Four							19				720
NEW	28	Kookie Kookie (Lend Me Your Comb) - Ed Byrnes and Connie Stevens							20				660
22	29	Hit And Miss - The John Barry Seven						27				22	590
30	30	Standing On The Corner - The Four Lads						26					400
		Looking High High High - Bryan Johnson						28				28	330
		You Got What It Takes - Marv Johnson										25	180
		Chattanooga Choo Choo - Ernie Fields						30					80
		Why - Anthony Newley										29	60
		Heartbeat - Buddy Holly										30	30