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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • kjell
    replied
    Seems some of my music memories have left my mind. The list of LP hits in single charts looks like this: NME : Carousel original soundtrack 56 Jun 16 26-2, Songs for swingin’ lovers (Sinatra), Showcase
    (Lonnie) 56 Dec 21 26-3, Come dance with me (Sinatra) 59 May 15 30-1Elvis is back 60 Jul 15 17-5, G.I. Blues 60 Dec 9 25-5, With the Beatles 63 Nov 29 11-7, A hard day’s night 64 Jul 17 22-6, Rolling Stones 64 Apr 24 23-3, Beatles for sale 64 Dec 12 22-5, Rolling Stones no. 2 65 Jan 23 21-2, Help 65 Aug 14 23-4, Sgt. Pepper 67 May 31 21-5, The White album (double) 68 Nov 27 20-3.
    In Music Echo charted A hard day’s night 64-1, Help 47-2, Beatles for sale 38-6 and Rolling Stones no. 2 42-4. On Pop Weekly charted With the Beatles 22-6, A hard day’s night 25-4, Rolling Stones 27-3 and Rolling Stones no. 2 28-2. Turned out to be a big half dozen.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
    Brian, so what did the NME midpoint chart look like for Dec 29? To compare against the actual NME Dec 29 chart, and versus the MM and RM Dec 29 midpoint charts? Inquiring minds need to know, ha...
    Just about finished it Robin for posting tomorrow looks like lots of tied positions in it though

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  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Brian, so what did the NME midpoint chart look like for Dec 29? To compare against the actual NME Dec 29 chart, and versus the MM and RM Dec 29 midpoint charts? Inquiring minds need to know, ha...

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    There must be about half a dozen LPs in some singles chart over time, mostly in NME, most notably by the Beatles. I can look for them in my archive. When it comes to EPs the number over the years includes so many that I don’t have the guts to do that research in addition to my other projects.

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    I did wonder myself actually looking at it all. I think I was thinking of some EP’s around the same sort of time…

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post
    I think so. Possible Sinatra?
    Nope, I don't believe Frank scored with a hit EP and Elvis didn't either with a hit LP on the singles chart so that is a unique 'record' for Lonnie to hold.

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    I think so. Possible Sinatra?

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Is Donegan the only act to get an EP and an LP into the 'official' singles chart?

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Please revisit the chart for 29th December. I initially entered just the points each record achieved on the MM and RM chart once averaged over the two week period just to exemplify the methodology used to achieve points allocated for each record.
    I have today returned to that chart and converted the points allocated in descending order to allocate appropriate chart positions to each record based on these points so you now have an actual likely Top 20 for the 29th December for MM and RM.

    As a result a few records below the Top 10 had their placement changed a little from the original order just based on points. I think the chart now has greater clarity as a result. I have already amended any affected last week positions in the chart for 5th January.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    ... and so into 1957 we go as Donegan and Presley both attempt to dominate the UK music scene for supremacy.

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 5th 1957

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '


    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 5th 1957 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 25 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    2 1 Singing The Blues - Guy Mitchell 1 2 1 4475
    1 2 Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray 2 1 2 4375
    3 3 Green Door - Frankie Vaughan 3 3 3 4200
    4 4 St. Therese Of The Roses - Malcolm Vaughan 4 5 4 4025
    13 5 Singing The Blues - Tommy Steele 6 6 4 3870
    5 6 Cindy Oh Cindy - Eddie Fisher 5 4 7 3805
    6 7 True Love - Bing Crosby and Grace Kelly 7 7 7 3600
    7 8 Rip It Up - Bill Haley and His Comets 9 7 6 3530
    11 9 Hound Dog - Elvis Presley 8 10 9 3340
    10 10 A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine 10 13 11 3015
    12 11 Love Me Tender - Elvis Presley 11 17 12 2790
    8 12 My Prayer - The Platters 16 9 10 2785
    9 13 Make It A Party - Winifred Atwell 14 16 17 2320
    20 14 Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets 19 13 14 2250
    15 15 Blue Moon - Elvis Presley (A) 22 11 13 2165
    24 16 Friendly Persuasion - Pat Boone 16 20 19 1970
    18 17 Blueberry Hill - Fats Domino 21 19 18 1730
    23 18 A House With Love In It - Vera Lynn 19 20 20 1715
    17 19 When Mexico Gave Up The Rumba - Mitchell Torok 12 13 1685
    19 20 Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets 25 14 1410
    14 21 More - Jimmy Young 15 18 1365
    22 22 Two Different Worlds - Ronnie Hilton 18 12 1320
    21 23 Moonlight Gambler - Frankie Laine 13 1170
    26 24 Sing With Shand - Jimmy Shand 16 900
    27 25 Cindy Oh Cindy - Tony Brent 23 520
    16 25 Christmas Island - Dickie Valentine 23 520
    RE 27 Rudy's Rock - Bill Haley and His Comets 27 260
    RE 28 A Letter To A Soldier - Barbara Lyon 28 195
    NEW 29 Friendly Persuasion - The Four Aces 29 130
    30 30 I Don't Care If The Sun Don't Shine - Elvis Presley (B) 30 65
    Lonnie Donegan Showcase (LP) - Lonnie Donegan 26
    25 The Green Door - Jim Lowe
    28 Christmas And You - Dave King
    29 Join In And Sing No 3 - The Johnston Brothers

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    I can't resist saying here to go off topic for a moment, I can't comprehend how the record buying public in 1956 bought and charted Patience and Prudence's horrendous record and blatantly ignored the wonderful, harmonic, mind blowing Oh What A Night by The Dells straight out of The Platters mould. Now there is a record fit for the very chart summit.That sax break in the middle makes me 'smoke'.

    Wonderful stuff
    The answer to that question is simple. The public in the UK couldn't get hold of The Dells track as it wasn't released in the UK till 1969!
    According to the 45 worlds and 45 Cat site. The Dells only issued records in the USA in the 1950's and they only started releasing records in the UK in 1963.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I am liking what I hear from you guys. I too am both surprised and heartened by the outcome because it does look both relevant and consistent for the missing week fitting in well. You are right Lonnie, the 'experimental' NME chart for the missing week will be interesting but not alike point for point as obviously the system used is different. I also think Robbie and Graham make a good point that it is likely NME used a reduced panel for this end of year week.

    I can't resist saying here to go off topic for a moment, I can't comprehend how the record buying public in 1956 bought and charted Patience and Prudence's horrendous record and blatantly ignored the wonderful, harmonic, mind blowing Oh What A Night by The Dells straight out of The Platters mould. Now there is a record fit for the very chart summit.That sax break in the middle makes me 'smoke'.

    Wonderful stuff

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    This is a very interesting development. I am a fan of statistics and what's happening is essentially averaging the chart out to look at patterns. If a song was 1-2-BLANK CHART-12 then we can, with some confidence, say it was between 3 and 11 in that missing week, and what this does is try and give some sort of idea as to where that record might be. I like the results and, actually, the positions do match with the NME chart as well as other weeks have.

    I to like the suggestion to try it for NME and see what we get. It will, of course, not match properly - but that's not the point as this is a proof of concept. For charts based on points I think this is relatively good. We are, after all, applying modern methods to a process that was not very rigorous at the start - let's be honest, scoring each record as points and then adding them up is not a good method to be totally accurate and true sales figures are the way forward. But, we have none of those original sales figures. So this does seem really good!

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
    That's a most interesting exercise there Brian. Just for the heck of it, I'd also do a midpoint chart of NME for 22 Dec and 5 Jan, and see how that compares to the actual NME for 29 Jan, and versus the MM and RM missing midpoint charts. Just 'cause I'm a math nut, ha...

    As in if the NME midpoint chart is extremely close to the actual NME chart, then that would give some kind of confidence to the MM and RM midpoint charts.

    You could also rank the midpoint chart positions from 1 to 20 (or whatever) just to smooth them out and not have to deal with half points.

    But I do like this concept. The question is (as I've asked before), which would be the more 'correct' thing to do with a skipped week chart? To leave it as 'no chart', to freeze the previous week, to back-freeze with the following week, or to do a midpoint chart? I think a midpoint chart is closest to the 'truth'.
    Interesting! Interesting! Interesting !

    I like those suggestions .. A Lot !

    In the next few days I will do that one for the NME as a comparison because it would be interesting to see.

    I called this an experimental chart because depending on the outcome I intend to replicate the process for all end of year charts where one or more was not compiled at the end of the year right up to the end of 1968. If so, that would mean going back and making some corrections to each of those charts affected to give a true UAC all the way from 1956 to 1968 to include all charts.
    I am thus far impressed with the outcome on this experimental chart and if the NME comparison gives a result not far away from the actual then we may well be on to a winner.

    The reason I did not break down the points to chart position numbers for the MM and RM averages above on the 29th December chart was to demonstrate openly how I reached the decision for each record.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    That's a most interesting exercise there Brian. Just for the heck of it, I'd also do a midpoint chart of NME for 22 Dec and 5 Jan, and see how that compares to the actual NME for 29 Jan, and versus the MM and RM missing midpoint charts. Just 'cause I'm a math nut, ha...

    As in if the NME midpoint chart is extremely close to the actual NME chart, then that would give some kind of confidence to the MM and RM midpoint charts.

    You could also rank the midpoint chart positions from 1 to 20 (or whatever) just to smooth them out and not have to deal with half points.

    But I do like this concept. The question is (as I've asked before), which would be the more 'correct' thing to do with a skipped week chart? To leave it as 'no chart', to freeze the previous week, to back-freeze with the following week, or to do a midpoint chart? I think a midpoint chart is closest to the 'truth'.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    As a method of compiling a one-off chart, it is fine. The NME chart seems like an outlier in some way despite it being the only chart compiled that week.
    At first glance maybe Robbie, but in the Top 20 where also MM and RM feature, 11 of the UAC positions are either the same position or only one place out from the NME position whilst another 4 are only two places out, so 15 records, 75% of the Top 20 is approximately within the same ball park.
    On the week before, the 22nd December, where all 3 charts were compiled 16 records met the same standard so not that far out really by comparison.

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  • Robbie
    replied
    As a method of compiling a one-off chart, it is fine. The NME chart seems like an outlier in some way despite it being the only chart compiled that week. However, the NME chart itself was (as Graham has mentioned) probably compiled from fewer returns than usual to get the chart compiled in time for publication and so it may not as be as robust as usual.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    The first advantage that springs out is that the tie at 3 is broken, and in a convincing way. The differences below that are greater than I would have expected, particularly as this is the slow-moving time of year. Perhaps the MM and RM weightings should be halved to produce a fairer picture.

    I admire the way that every year NME produced a chart in Christmas week, while the other charts compilers were partying!
    I think you are going on those week ending dates. They confuse a lot of people. That chart for the 29 December was for the week 23 December and was for the sales week previous when buyers were rushing out to buy last minute records for presents. So it shouldn't have been a slow week sales wise. It was good that NME did that week and the others didn't due to the sales period. However we don't know if they got around doing the chart in the Christmas week by simply cutting the shops phoned down to 20 or whatever to get it done faster.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    The first advantage that springs out is that the tie at 3 is broken, and in a convincing way. The differences below that are greater than I would have expected, particularly as this is the slow-moving time of year. Perhaps the MM and RM weightings should be halved to produce a fairer picture.

    I admire the way that every year NME produced a chart in Christmas week, while the other charts compilers were partying!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 29th 1956 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 20 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray 1 1 1 4350
    3 2 Singing The Blues - Guy Mitchell 2 2 1 4265
    2 3 Green Door - Frankie Vaughan 3 3 3 4060
    4 4 St. Therese Of The Roses - Malcolm Vaughan 3 4 4 3980
    5 5 Cindy Oh Cindy - Eddie Fisher 6 4 6 3665
    8 6 True Love - Bing Crosby and Grace Kelly 5 8 7 3590
    6 7 Rip It Up - Bill Haley and His Comets 9 7 5 3470
    7 8 My Prayer - The Platters 10 6 8 3245
    11 9 Make It A Party - Winifred Atwell 7 14 14 2920
    10 10 A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine 12 11 10 2895
    9 11 Hound Dog - Elvis Presley (A) 16 8 8 2815
    12 12 Love Me Tender - Elvis Presley 11 13 12 2800
    16 13 Singing The Blues - Tommy Steele 17 10 10 2590
    13 14 More - Jimmy Young 13 16 17 2310
    15 15 Blue Moon - Elvis Presley 22 14 13 2005
    17 16 Christmas Island - Dickie Valentine 8 1495
    14 17 When Mexico Gave Up The Rumba - Mitchell Torok 15 12 1420
    30 18 Blueberry Hill - Fats Domino 25 20 20 1270
    18 19 Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets 18 15 1220
    23 20 Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets 16 16 1200
    NEW 21 Moonlight Gambler - Frankie Laine 14 1105
    20 22 Two Different Worlds - Ronnie Hilton 21 19 890
    24 23 A House With Love In It - Vera Lynn 18 845
    24 24 Friendly Persuasion - Pat Boone 19 780
    19 25 The Green Door - Jim Lowe 18 780
    RE 26 Sing With Shand - Jimmy Shand 19 720
    21 27 Cindy Oh Cindy - Tony Brent 20 715
    27 28 Christmas And You - Dave King 23 520
    NEW 29 Join In And Sing No 3 - The Johnston Brothers 24 455
    26 30 I Don't Care If The Sun Don't Shine - Elvis Presley (B) 26 325
    22 Love Me As Though There Were No Tomorrow - Nat King Cole 30 20 285
    29 A Letter To A Soldier - Barbara Lyon 27 260
    All Of You - Sammy Davis Jnr. 28 195
    Lonnie Donegan Showcase (LP) - Lonnie Donegan 29 130
    28 Rudy's Rock - Bill Haley and His Comets 30 65
    MM and RM did not compile a chart this week so an average position was taken of likely chart position for this non compiled week by taking a mid point position between the chart for 22nd December and the chart for 5th January 1957 for both charts in order to compile an experimental Ultimate Averaged Chart.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the surprise Ultimate Averaged Chart I have been hinting at a couple of times over the past few weeks. I have compiled an UAC for the 29th December 1956 where only NME compiled a chart and MM and RM did not, a first for the UAC where non compiled weeks are present by music papers. I will be interested to hear your feedback on this experimental UAC so feel free to offer your comments.

    But first an explanation as to what you are seeing in the columns for MM and RM. To try and establish a likely chart for both papers for non compiled 29th December I took a mid-point average between the record position each paper allocated on their chart for each record for the weeks of 22nd December and 5th January 1957. So for example, if a record was #1 on both of those weeks it would have a mid-point average of 1, if it was #1 on 29th December but #2 on 5th January the mid-point average would be 1.5, if #2 then #4 mid-point average would be 3, and so on for every record and chart position. Where MM and RM columns are blank this means the record placed on NME for that week did not feature on MM or RM for either week.

    As some records would leave the chart after 29th, and some entered on 5th January thus missing out on a week it would disadvantage such records as each would likely still place on the UAC Top 30, so, for the purpose of this chart such records were granted the luxury of points of #21 on the chart in order to establish a fair average for the missing week of 29th December.

    I have to say I was surprised to see the outcome as the result produced what looks like a chart that fits well into this non compiled week. For the purists among you though you have the compiled NME chart to go on for this week.

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  • Robbie
    replied
    Oops. the eye deceives! I've just realised I've posted about a Tommy Steele showcase album when MrTibbs had typed Lonnie Donegan. That will explain why I couldn't find it at discogs.com...

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I think you're right Robbie. If I remember correctly the original Guy Mitchell Showcase that my mother had was 10'' and a few years later it was reissued as a 12'' with a couple more tracks.

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  • Robbie
    replied
    As well as the Guy Mitchell Showcase album I linked to last week, my mother also owned the Tommy Steele Showcase album too. Surprisingly the album isn't listed at discogs.com nor on his discography page at wikipedia. I think the album may have been a 10" album rather than 12". It's possible the Guy Mitchell album was also 10"

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    This week Lonnie Donegan becomes one of the few elite artists to place an LP on one of the music paper singles charts.

    Next week's chart is the surprise I mentioned a week or so back. Your thoughts and feedback on this surprise when it comes probably on Wednesday will be interesting

    Leave a comment:

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