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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • membranemusic
    replied
    Re the 1952 dilemma. Do you recall that Barry Kowal posted two intervening charts for November 1952 following the CB/SW book?
    weblink:

    http://hitsofalldecades.com/chart_hi...2587&Itemid=52

    Of course this does not answer your question, but it fills the gap?
    Last edited by membranemusic; Thu December 2, 2021, 16:28. Reason: Silly me: I've just noticed it's the same chart for the 3 weeks!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    1957 will shake off the cobwebs of 1956. Things get much more interesting as Skiffle, Elvis, Rock'n'Roll and even some Doo Wop take hold of the chart and give it a good shake.

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    I think though that’s always the issue when a new format comes out and people start to try and copy or imitate it. Takes a while to work and has to be the right type of performer to fit that profile.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    'Attempt' is a good description for Tommy Steele's first three chart records, the one above and two more poor covers to follow, but then he settles into a more comfortable groove later in 1957.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    'Rock with the caveman' the first British attempt at a Rock & Roll record to make the charts. Co-written by Mike Pratt who later played the non-deceased partner of 'Randall and Hopkirk (deceased)'.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 1st 1956

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 1st 1956 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 20 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray 1 1 1 4350
    2 2 A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine 2 2 2 4205
    4 3 Green Door - Frankie Vaughan 3 6 3 4000
    5 4 My Prayer - The Platters 4 3 4 3935
    8 5 Rip It Up - Bill Haley and His Comets 5 4 5 3790
    3 6 Hound Dog - Elvis Presley (A) 6 5 8 3525
    9 7 St. Therese Of The Roses - Malcolm Vaughan 8 7 6 3475
    6 8 More - Jimmy Young 7 8 7 3460
    10 9 Blue Moon - Elvis Presley (A) 9 11 9 3150
    7 10 When Mexico Gave Up The Rumba - Mitchell Torok 10 10 10 3045
    19 11 True Love - Bing Crosby and Grace Kelly 11 13 11 2860
    14 12 Cindy Oh Cindy - Eddie Fisher 12 9 12 2815
    12 13 Make It A Party - Winifred Atwell 13 14 13 2590
    21 14 Two Different Worlds - Ronnie Hilton 13 16 17 2310
    15 15 The Green Door - Jim Lowe 16 17 14 2275
    11 16 Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets 17 12 15 2250
    26 17 Giddy-Up-A-Ding-Dong - Freddie Bell and The Bell Boys 29 20 18 1130
    17 18 Love Me As Though There Were No Tomorrow - Nat King Cole 19 14 1120
    13 19 Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and The Comets 15 1040
    16 20 Only You - The Platters 16 900
    24 21 Autumn Concerto - The Melachrino Orchestra 18 845
    NEW 22 Sing With Shand - Jimmy Shand 19 720
    23 23 In The Middle Of The House - Alma Cogan 20 715
    30 23 A House With Love In It - Vera Lynn 20 715
    28 25 Don't Be Cruel - Elvis Presley (B) 20 660
    NEW 26 Blueberry Hill - Fats Domino 26 17 605
    RE 27 In The Middle Of The House - Jimmy Parkinson 22 585
    RE 28 Rock With The Caveman - Tommy Steele 23 520
    RE 29 Green Door - Glen Mason 24 455
    20 30 More - Perry Como 25 390
    29 I Don't Care If The Sun Don't Shine - Elvis Presley (B) 17 280
    In The Middle Of The House - The Johnston Brothers 27 260
    Cindy Oh Cindy - Tony Brent 28 195
    The Cat Came Back - Sonny James 30 65
    18 Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton
    22 Rudy's Rock - Bill Haley and His Comets
    24 Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day
    27 Bring A Little Water Sylvie / Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    You are quite right there, though as we have discussed, he either leaves out the side which will have the SM title - on double A sides - or get the wrong side completely. Thus making them less like the SM charts, when in fact there are a few in the survey that do show up. Then again it could have been Steve Waters who got some of the titles wrongs. There are some mistakes in the book itself.
    As with many charts you would love to see the raw data from what he compiled each top 30. For example what were the order levels for a record at 30 and what were the amount for number one hits. The variations between the years. And the most orders for a record.
    But even the comparison between the first NME charts and the last few of Colin's book is so out of step. His last chart, cuts off just before the new records would come out and based on the trends you would have got about 9 to 10 new entries. But following the NME charts till the end of the year you wouldn't get that amount in the charts for the rest of the year, never mind a few weeks! I reckon that the orders even for Here In My Heart - NME's number one for the rest of the year! Would have either stopped and thus would have fallen out of Colin's chart. It was going down already in the last chart.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I really, really like Colin's book as a reference guide. It makes a valuable contribution as to what record shops were ordering but not as a chart book to be taken too seriously. If it was a truly valid representation of what was selling over the counter as opposed to orders the OCC would have possibly accepted it as official for the period and they didn't so despite endorsement they didn't embrace it totally.

    My main problem with Colin's book is this. If you compare the Sheet Music Chart with the early years of the NME chart both were similar in the records/songs that made both charts, albeit in differing positions. This shows a comparable consistency shared by both in what was popular. Both listed almost the same songs/records.
    But if you compare the Sheet Music Chart with Colin's charts the difference is night and day. Much less similarity between both.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post

    I do wonder how meaningful it would be to average Colin's record charts with the sheet music charts?
    I think that would be very problematic indeed. For one thing the sheet music only has one title, but records in shops have many artists covering the same title. They even have two SM titles on each side. Some artist even have different SM titles on both sides, to each other.
    The next problem you hit is the late arrival mostly in record shops. There's some titles in the SM charts that Colin never has an entry for. Or it arrives long after the SM chart has lost it. Sometimes I think Colin missed some records, especially Hoagy Carmichael - My Resistance Is Low! The title was big in the SM chart and is very well known tune. And I have noted that orders have dried up when that artist was selling like hot cakes!
    Then there are a few records that never made the SM charts. The best examples being The Coronation Scot. And The Dick Barton Theme.
    A few orchestras might be interested in the sheet music for them, but not the singalong piano players!
    And the biggest issue would be Christmas tunes. Colin's chart fills up with them at the expense of all the sheet music songs. But as soon as the holiday is over, every Christmas tune vanishes (just like the iTunes downloads).

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    While the OCC may have given Colin's book encouragement, support, and stamp of approval, they nonetheless have not recognized his work as 'official'.

    Even if Colin's charts reflected records ordered, and thus weren't exact week to week, I would still think they would be more meaningful than less meaningful. Shops would have to keep re-ordering hit records as the public demanded. Thus the period of rising sales after release date would be more meaningful chart wise than the period of declining sales. When it's all you've got, it's all you've got.

    I do wonder how meaningful it would be to average Colin's record charts with the sheet music charts?

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    I’ve checked Colin’s book. His associate Steve Waters that got it published thanks the OCC for their encouragement, support and stamp of approval, so we can only imagine what eventually may have come in return.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending November 24th 1956

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending November 24th 1956 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 20 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray 1 1 1 4350
    2 2 A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine 2 2 2 4205
    3 3 Hound Dog - Elvis Presley (A) 3 5 4 3960
    7 4 Green Door - Frankie Vaughan 4 3 5 3875
    4 5 My Prayer - The Platters 6 4 3 3845
    5 6 More - Jimmy Young 4 6 6 3755
    11 7 When Mexico Gave Up the Rumba - Mitchell Torok 6 8 8 3465
    6 8 Rip It Up - Bill Haley and His Comets 8 9 7 3375
    12 9 St. Therese Of The Roses - Malcolm Vaughan 10 7 9 3165
    15 10 Blue Moon - Elvis Presley (A) 9 10 10 3110
    8 11 Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets 11 11 11 2900
    14 12 Make It A Party - Winifred Atwell 11 14 12 2780
    17 13 Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets 13 14 15 2470
    NEW 14 Cindy Oh Cindy - Eddie Fisher 15 17 14 2340
    9 15 The Green Door - Jim Lowe 14 12 2245
    18 16 Only You - The Platters 13 17 2240
    16 17 Love Me As Though There Were No Tomorrow - Nat King Cole 17 20 20 1790
    10 18 Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton 19 20 18 1780
    NEW 19 True Love - Bing Crosby and Grace Kelly 24 16 1355
    19 20 More - Perry Como 16 18 1235
    25 21 Two Different Worlds - Ronnie Hilton 18 845
    NEW 22 Rudy's Rock - Bill Haley and His Comets 30 18 845
    RE 23 In The Middle Of The House - Alma Cogan 20 715
    22 24 Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day 22 585
    21 24 Autumn Concerto - The Melachrino Orchestra 22 585
    13 26 Giddy-Up-A-Ding-Dong - Freddie Bell and The Bell Boys 28 16 495
    28 27 Bring A Little Water Sylvie / Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan 25 390
    28 28 Don't Be Cruel - Elvis Presley (B) 12 380
    NEW 29 I Don't Care If The Sun Don't Shine - Elvis Presley (B) 29 19 370
    24 30 A House With Love In It - Vera Lynn 26 325
    26 Green Door - Glen Mason 27 260
    Blueberry Hill - Fats Domino 20 220
    Only You / The Great Pretender - The Platters 21
    20 Rock With The Caveman - Tommy Steele
    23 Blue Jean Bop - Gene Vincent
    27 In The Middle Of The House - Jimmy Parkinson
    30 Tonight You Belong To Me - Patience and Prudence

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    Colin was a bit more vocal on the NME chart - made up by the office girls was his thoughts!

  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending November 17th 1956

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending November 17th 1956 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 20 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray 1 1 1 4350
    2 2 A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine 2 2 2 4205
    3 3 Hound Dog - Elvis Presley (A) 3 3 3 4060
    4 4 My Prayer - The Platters 4 3 4 3935
    5 5 More - Jimmy Young 4 5 5 3835
    18 6 Rip It Up - Bill Haley and His Comets 6 8 8 3465
    17 7 Green Door - Frankie Vaughan 9 7 6 3410
    6 8 Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets 7 6 9 3380
    12 9 The Green Door - Jim Lowe 8 17 10 3035
    7 10 Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton 10 10 11 2985
    11 11 When Mexico Gave Up The Rumba - Mitchell Torok 15 9 7 2920
    NEW 12 St. Therese Of The Roses - Malcolm Vaughan 12 12 14 2635
    8 13 Giddy-Up-A-Ding-Dong - Freddie Bell and The Bell Boys 15 11 13 2520
    13 14 Make It A Party - Winifred Atwell 13 15 15 2450
    NEW 15 Blue Moon - Elvis Presley 15 19 12 2420
    20 16 Love Me As Though There Were No Tomorrow - Nat King Cole 11 16 2200
    9 17 Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets 14 16 18 2185
    15 18 Only You - The Platters 13 18 2148
    10 19 More - Perry Como 18 14 17 2025
    14 20 Rock With The Caveman - Tommy Steele 18 20 1505
    22 21 Autumn Concerto - The Melachrino Orchestra 22 18 845
    19 22 Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day 20 715
    16 23 Blue Jean Bop - Gene Vincent 21 650
    27 24 A House With Love In It - Vera Lynn 25 20 610
    30 25 Two Different Worlds - Ronnie Hilton 24 455
    NEW 26 Green Door - Glen Mason 26 325
    26 27 In The Middle Of The House - Jimmy Parkinson 27 260
    21 28 Don't Be Cruel - Elvis Presley (B) 20 220
    28 28 Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan 20 220
    29 30 Tonight You Belong To Me - Patience and Prudence 29 130
    23 Ying Tong Song / Bloodnok's Rock'n'Roll Call - The Goons 30 65
    Only You / The Great Pretender - The Platters 23
    Bring A Little Water Sylvie / Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan 27
    24 I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino
    25 See You Later Alligator - Bill Haley and His Comets

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    But even if Colin had extended further it would still not be a like for like comparison with NME. Theirs was a sales chart Colin's was a chart of what shops were ordering and not necessarily selling. It's a bit like comparing the BMRB chart based on actual sales with the store returns from NME and MM come 1969. We identified that as an 'oranges and lemons' scenario when I did the 'fun' UAC for the early BMRB era.

    For the forties into the mid fifties I think the Sheet Music Chart was a better indicator of actual popularity and certainly more accurately compiled.

    Anyway here's the UAC for November 17th 1956.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    It may have been a condition of the OCC giving the book their blessing.

    Can't the A-side can be identified by having the lower catalogue number?

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Yes but I think they may have asked him not to go beyond and he may have agreed. I need to re read the intro to the book

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    This puzzles me. Does the OCC have any legal right to stop others from doing charts in Britain? In accordance with Western law I believe they only could stop him from publishing their own.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    It would have been good to see his charts for 1953, to compare them to the NME chart.

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    I think that’s why he stopped the book! I am sure he would have this for a few years after (think it says so in the introduction to some extent - years since I’ve read that) but the OCC would have stopped him so as not to do something ‘better’ than there’s.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    I find it hard to believe too that his lists stop within a few weeks of the first NME chart being done. He said he stopped them due to the new music (which he didn't like) coming out. But it would have only have been on the small scale in 1952 surely? I reckon he got wind of the NME chart coming out and stopped them then. It's a pity he didn't wait while the end of the year. Because the first NME charts were slow with the uptake of new hits. And his books had 10 to 15 new entries a month, before they stopped. It would have made a great comparison.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
    The only problem with the Brown book is that he often lists the B side of a record, but it was the A side that was the hit and often a version of song in the sheet music chart. I hope that the radio station has worked that one out, otherwise they will be playing songs that even 80 to 90 year olds won't remember! Sometimes it's the most obvious ones that he lists to. For example the Brunswick label actually put A and B on the sides. Not all companies did that. Bing Crosby was on that label and thanks to a deceased uncle, I have a number of the 78's from him dating to the early forties. That's when I first noticed that he was putting in the B sides.
    I totally agree there Graham. He defo got a lot of the sides mixed up. We also need to remember the book is good to some extent but it was a list of records ordered and not sold. A big difference in chart land.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    The only problem with the Brown book is that he often lists the B side of a record, but it was the A side that was the hit and often a version of song in the sheet music chart. I hope that the radio station has worked that one out, otherwise they will be playing songs that even 80 to 90 year olds won't remember! Sometimes it's the most obvious ones that he lists to. For example the Brunswick label actually put A and B on the sides. Not all companies did that. Bing Crosby was on that label and thanks to a deceased uncle, I have a number of the 78's from him dating to the early forties. That's when I first noticed that he was putting in the B sides.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Great find Splodj. I'm definitely gonna give that a spin

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Angel Radio has the NME Top 30 from 30-Nov-57 at 12.40 today. They go in anniversary rotation, so it was 23-Nov-56 last week and should be 7-Dec-58 next week

    Then at 4.20 they have the Colin Brown Top 30 from 27-Mar-44. The first 8 1940s Top 30s starting with 8th July 1940 are at ...
    https://www.angelradio.co.uk/listenagain
    ... but I don't know for how long.

    Leave a comment:

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