The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[Splodj]

The Great Separator (NME) acting against type by being the only one to combine The Platters.

[kingofskiffle]

I love how close the top few records are.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 8th 1956

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 8th 1956							NME	MM	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey			Stores	65	20	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart					TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day					1	1	1	4350
2	2	Why Do Fools Fall In Love - The Teenagers					2	2	2	4205
3	3	A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer					3	3	5	3940
5	4	Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets					4	5	4	3895
16	5	Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton					5	6	3	3870
4	6	Walk Hand In Hand - Tony Martin					6	4	6	3665
6	7	Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme					7	7	7	3480
7	8	Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis Presley					9	8	10	3150
14	9	Born To Be With You - The Chordettes					8	9	13	3015
13	10	I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino					12	13	9	2915
11	11	I Almost Lost My Mind - Pat Boone					15	12	8	2800
8	12	Serenade - Slim Whitman					11	13	13	2740
10	13	I'll Be Home - Pat Boone					17	11	11	2510
12	14	The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets					10		12	2505
17	15	I Want You I Need You I Love You - Elvis Presley					14	16	19	2125
NEW	16	The Great Pretender - The Platters (A)						18	16	2070
9	17	The Wayward Wind - Tex Ritter					19	15	15	2060
NEW	18	Only You - The Platters (B)						17	18	1938
18	19	Walk Hand In Hand - Ronnie Carroll					20	20	16	1835
20	20	You Are My First Love - Ruby Murray					16	10		1395
24	21	Long Tall Sally - Pat Boone					18			845
15	22	Who Are We - Ronnie Hilton					22	19		825
28	23	Moonglow And Theme From Picnic - Morris Stoloff							19	720
22	24	By The Fountains Of Rome - Edmund Hockridge					20			715
21	25	Be-Bop-A-Lula - Gene Vincent					23			520
19	26	My Son John - David Whitfield (A)					24			455
RE	27	My September Love - David Whitfield					25			390
29	28	Donkey Cart - Frank Chacksfield					26			325
NEW	29	A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine					27			260
NEW	30	Bring A Little Water Sylvie / Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan					28			195
		Experiments With Mice - Johnny Dankworth					29			130
25		The Wayward Wind - Gogi Grant					30			65
		The Great Pretender / Only You - The Platters					13
23		Long Tall Sally - Little Richard
26		My Unfinished Symphony - David Whitfield (B)
27		Bluebottle Blues / I'm Walking Backwards For Christmas - The Goons
30		Left Bank - Winifred Atwell

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 1st 1956

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 1st 1956							NME	MM	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey			Stores	65	20	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart					TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day					1	1	1	4350
2	2	Why Do Fools Fall In Love - The Teenagers					2	2	2	4205
3	3	A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer					4	3	3	3995
4	4	Walk Hand In Hand - Tony Martin					3	4	5	3920
6	5	Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets					5	6	4	3810
5	6	Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme					5	5	6	3710
7	7	Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis Presley					7	7	9	3360
10	8	Serenade - Slim Whitman					8	8	9	3275
9	9	The Wayward Wind - Tex Ritter					11	9	8	3120
8	10	I'll Be Home - Pat Boone					9	12	11	3010
13	11	I Almost Lost My Mind - Pat Boone					15	11	7	2880
12	12	The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets					10	14	16	2605
22	13	I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino					12	17	14	2535
30	14	Born To Be With You - The Chordettes					13	20	12	2530
17	15	Who Are We - Ronnie Hilton					16	10	18	2175
NEW	16	Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton					14		15	2065
15	17	I Want You I Need You I Love You - Elvis Presley					18	17	20	1785
11	18	Walk Hand In Hand - Ronnie Carroll					17		17	1750
21	19	My Son John - David Whitfield (A)					22		13	1665
23	20	You Are My First Love - Ruby Murray					19	17		1060
18	21	Be-Bop-A-Lula - Gene Vincent					19			780
NEW	22	By The Fountains Of Rome - Edmund Hockridge					24	15		775
24	23	Long Tall Sally - Little Richard							19	720
20	24	Long Tall Sally - Pat Boone					21			650
14	25	The Wayward Wind - Gogi Grant					23			520
NEW	26	My Unfinished Symphony - David Whitfield (B)					29	15		450
19	27	Bluebottle Blues / I'm Walking Backwards For Christmas - The Goons					25			390
RE	28	Moonglow And Theme From Picnic - Morris Stoloff						13		360
NEW	29	Donkey Cart - Frank Chacksfield					26			325
27	30	Left Bank - Winifred Atwell					27			260
25		The Faithful Hussar - Ted Heath					28			195
		Sadie's Shawl - Frank Cordell					30			65
29		Experiments With Mice - Johnny Dankworth.					30			65
16		All Star Hit Parade - Various Artists
26		Blue Suede Shoes - Elvis Presley
27		Why Do Fools Fall In Love - Alma Cogan

[MrTibbs]

Thanks for that info Robin. Yeah I did a random check on the years 56 to 58 and store numbers vary. I did see a 29 for August 56 as mentioned above, but in every other I looked at randomly the following numbers were given, 24, 21, 24, 20, 21, 22, 15, 15 over these years so no consistency it would seem. Up to 1958 the paper stated above the chart exactly how many were used. So it would seem the formula I am using is entirely credible as an average for this period.

[kingofskiffle]

For the period for 1956 MM would print the stores supplying data beneath there chart - I counted 29 on the 25 Aug 1956 chart. It is possible that this is a generic list and so could be incomplete or inaccurate. It could also be a true account for that weeks charts, but this list was dropped eventually. In 9 Jan 1960 this ran to 28 shops.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Brian, it's the WorldRadioHistory.com site, previously known as AmericanRadioHistory.com. Here's the link to MM issues:

https://worldradiohistory.com/Melody_Maker.htm

[MrTibbs]

But it would be very kool if someone were to go thru the MM charts late 50s to 1960 on the American site, and total up how many shops are listed each week !! At some point in 1960, MM quit supplying those exact numbers / dealer names, when they upped it to over 100 shops.

Can I ask here which American site we are talking about ? . Obviously if this site can give a more accurate guide as to numbers of returns MM used in the fifties so much the better for my computations so if anyone can advise me on this it would be most helpful.

As things stand, going forward I increase MM input incrementally, 20 stores at present, 25 from January 1957, 30 from January 1958, and finally 35 from January 1959. This then ties in with the sample of 38 used from January 1960. This is consistent with Alan Smith's figures used throughout the project.
As referred to by Robin above MM made the conscious decision from July 30th 1960 to have the best chart service of any chart and increased their chart sample to over a hundred. This effectively provided a larger sample than any other individual paper from that date and remained so throughout the decade.

Also referring again to Robin's comments above re the two 'position swaps' . These only occurred in the bottom end of the chart which as such is mainly reliant on the NME chart as RM and MM only compiled a Top 20. Therefore the Top 20 itself, which all three charts input to, remains the same even with Robin's additional experimental increase in MM store returns proving that it is indeed robust and the proportions do what they say on the tin.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Just to reemphasize Brian's statement above:

.
That said the exact figure is relatively unimportant as it is the proportion used to differentiate between the paper samples that is the main factor to consider, so the figures I use are a good representation of that for the purpose of this exercise.

Of course we would like to know the exact number of record shops sampled each week by each chart, but good ballpark / approximate / highly reasonable numbers will yield close to the same averaged ranking results. The big thing is the relative proportion of number of sampled shops, chart against chart. In the case of the above Aug 25 1956 chart, it's NME 65 vs MM 20 vs RM 60. NME and RM are way above MM, so MM's impact will be minimal.

But just for the heck of it, I took Brian's chart above Aug 25 1956, and changed MM from 20 to 30 shops. And the results were the same except for 2 swaps: the records at 25 and 26 swapped, and the records at 29 and 30 swapped.

But it would be very kool if someone were to go thru the MM charts late 50s to 1960 on the American site, and total up how many shops are listed each week !! At some point in 1960, MM quit supplying those exact numbers / dealer names, when they upped it to over 100 shops.

[MrTibbs]

Graham advised, ''MM was not as low as your numbers. If you look at the papers on the American site they were getting at least 30 and probably more, but it did vary.''

We have debated this so often but yet again let me quantify. Nobody, not me, not you Graham, not even Alan Smith can hand on heart state Alan's figures (the ones I use) were definitive. But Alan's figures as things stand are the best 'guide' we actually have and were at least based on his research with industry insiders so carry some weight.

That said the exact figure is relatively unimportant as it is the proportion used to differentiate between the paper samples that is the main factor to consider, so the figures I use are a good representation of that for the purpose of this exercise.

Remember too that all these charts used are only based on what the stores reported on and like we have debated on before these figures themselves will have an element of error contained within due to manipulation, errors, omissions, miscalculations and so on. At least by combining and averaging and factoring in approximate store return numbers do we get as good a balanced chart as is now possible.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart is only 'A' chart based on specific data to give a likely averaged outcome. It in no way can be described as 'THE' chart, no more than any other chart, NME, RM, MM, DISC, RR. It's just another chart of choice improving on the methodology employed by the BBC taking the same view that a combination of many charts together has to be better than any individual chart.

I do present it as 'definitive' reflecting the era in as much as it is accurate by correcting all the obvious errors that the individual music paper charts made at the time, including the BBC one. The methodology is transparent for all to see which further allows you guys to also see any errors I make for correction along the way. So based on that yes ! The Ultimate Averaged Chart more robust than any other chart but not better, it's just another chart.

I hope this clarifies the purpose and reasoning behind the project in order that we can all continue to enjoy it. It reflects the times imperfections and all.

Brian

[MrTibbs]

Wow ! That's what I call comprehensive Lonnie.

I can actually understand how easy it was for ties to occur on a points based chart especially if the sample tally was low but for the BMRB to have a five way tie in a chart where copies sold was used rather than points should have been nigh impossible. 2 tying is possible, just, but 5. This again to my my mind exemplifies that at the outset the BMRB chart was using only a minimal sample of valid returns for compilation purposes as we have discussed many times. This is perhaps the strongest evidence yet.

[Graham76man]

MM was not as low as your numbers. If you look at the papers on the American site they were getting at least 30 and probably more, but it did vary.

[kingofskiffle]

The 3-way tie (at MMs number 9) must be rare, if not unique.

Interesting question! So I went digging....

Lots of times we had 2 records tie for a position. So Ignored those.

In fact, three records at a single position has happened 44 times on the UK Singles chart - most during the time whenNME compiled the chart, then 5 times in 1969, once in 1986 and three times in 1993 (In the 76-100 section of the chart - two happening in a single week!)

Date	Pos
19/12/1952	6
19/12/1952	10
26/12/1952	6
26/12/1952	10
23/01/1953	12
26/11/1954	14
17/12/1954	20
24/12/1954	20
31/12/1954	20
01/04/1955	15
27/01/1956	20
21/09/1956	6
16/11/1956	15
08/02/1957	21
13/12/1957	22
07/02/1958	26
14/02/1958	7
14/03/1958	30
19/12/1958	25
09/01/1959	14
23/01/1959	18
06/02/1959	3
13/02/1959	22
20/02/1959	23
26/06/1959	28
17/07/1959	28
07/08/1959	15
04/09/1959	19
18/09/1959	28
25/09/1959	18
16/10/1959	28
04/12/1959	30
01/01/1960	19
01/01/1960	28
05/02/1960	17
05/03/1969	46
02/04/1969	35
09/04/1969	38
07/05/1969	39
07/05/1969	43
08/03/1986	54
16/01/1993	82
16/01/1993	96
25/09/1993	72

And now we come to other charts....

NME continued to have 3 tied at a position through to 1970 (10 Jan 1970 the last occurrence). They also had 4 three times!

30/06/1961	28
25/05/1962	28
21/06/1963	28

Record Mirror had quite a few as well, but I need to re-verify me Record Mirror charts with the ones MrTibbs is posting above, as I know mine are for the Tony Jasper book (and thus full of errors) but they had 3 ties on 8 occasions, and once a 4 way tie - if my data is correct)

The BBC Averaged chart had loads of 3 record ties, quite a few times when 4 where tied (16 jul 1966 at 6 had 4 records but that's the only one in the Top 10) and once they had 6 records - 15 Feb 1958 at number 25, but I assume that this was just unable to sort out positions as it was below the Top 20 they broadcast.

Melody Maker also had 3 many times. 4 times in the Top 10 (two in 1957 and 19 Jun 1976 at 6) They also had 5 way ties twice. 1976 was the last time my data shows ties for Melody Maker (Note I do not have the 1980's data added yet).

Date	Pos	Number
19/01/1957	20	4
26/01/1957	17	4
06/04/1957	18	4
27/04/1957	20	4
01/06/1957	20	4
02/11/1957	18	4
04/01/1958	20	4
15/02/1958	20	4
14/03/1970	45	4
31/10/1970	49	4
19/05/1956	18	5
22/02/1958	15	5

Disc had 3 once on their first chart, Pop Weekly Singles had 3 4 times, one in the Top 10 on 7 Sep 1963.

And, saving the best for last, the main UK chart, in 1969, had a five way tie once - 12 Feb 1969 in the first of the BMRB charts at 45.

Over on the album chart ties where very rare, but did happen - mostly in 1969 when the BMRB where starting. Ignoring those (which included 4 records at 4 on 24 May 169) we had a 4 way tie at 56 on 23 Dec 1978 as the most, and also the last time we had a tie on the album chart of more than 2 records.

In America ties where far more common up until the advent of the Hot 100 and a change of the way they compiled the chart. The chart with the most was the Top 100 from 1955-1958, which ranked sides of records. I know this thread is about the UK so I will only mention this briefly, but the biggest number of ties recorded was for this chart as below

Date	Pos	Number
28/01/1956	93	9
16/06/1958	86	9
01/07/1957	85	10
07/04/1958	91	10
09/06/1958	87	10

However, all that pails with the most number of ties at a single position. 12. 12 records tied at a single position on the Juke Box chart Billboard printed on 2 Sep 1950, all at position 19.

So 3 is not that rare at all.

[MrTibbs]

The 3-way tie (at MMs number 9) must be rare, if not unique.

Probably MM's really low shop sample had a lot to do with this. BUT, strangely, NME consistently had ties in the upper end of the chart too (as well as lower positions) and often in the top ten yet using a much bigger sample. By comparison RM just below NME in sample size had far far fewer ties in the top ten but like MM often had ties in the lower chart positions.

Even stranger as you already know these frequent ties high in the top ten in NME carried on well into the sixties but less frequent with all the others. It had to have something to do with NME's compilation method.

[Splodj]

The 3-way tie (at MMs number 9) must be rare, if not unique.

[MrTibbs]

There is an amazing consensus at the top end of the above chart. All three papers by and large agree totally on the top eight positions. The only difference being MM disagreeing on the #1 single but without a shadow of a doubt NME and RM had that correct.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 25th 1956

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 25th 1956							NME	MM	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey			Stores	65	20	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart					TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day					1	2	1	4330
2	2	Why Do Fools Fall In Love - The Teenagers					2	1	2	4225
3	3	A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer					3	3	3	4060
4	4	Walk Hand In Hand - Tony Martin					4	4	4	3915
5	5	Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme					5	5	5	3770
8	6	Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets					6	6	6	3625
9	7	Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis Presley					7	7	7	3480
6	8	I'll Be Home - Pat Boone					8	8	8	3335
7	9	The Wayward Wind - Tex Ritter					9	14	9	3090
15	10	Serenade - Slim Whitman					10	9	11	3005
13	11	Walk Hand In Hand - Ronnie Carroll					13	12	10	2810
10	12	The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets					12	15	13	2635
21	13	I Almost Lost My Mind - Pat Boone					14	13	13	2545
12	14	The Wayward Wind - Gogi Grant					15	9	16	2380
17	15	I Want You I Need You I Love You - Elvis Presley					17	16	15	2170
11	16	All Star Hit Parade - Various Artists					21	19	12	2030
14	17	Who Are We - Ronnie Hilton					11	9		1740
24	18	Be-Bop-A-Lula - Gene Vincent					16		20	1635
19	19	Bluebottle Blues / I'm Walking Backwards For Christmas - The Goons					20		17	1555
30	20	Long Tall Sally - Pat Boone					18	20		1065
NEW	21	My Son John - David Whitfield					30		18	845
27	22	I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino					19			780
NEW	23	You Are My First Love - Ruby Murray							19	720
NEW	24	Long Tall Sally - Little Richard							20	660
23	25	The Faithful Hussar - Ted Heath					22			585
26	26	Blue Suede Shoes - Elvis Presley					26	20		545
18	27	Why Do Fools Fall In Love - Alma Cogan					23			520
25	27	Left Bank - Winifred Atwell					23			520
16	29	Experiments With Mice - Johnny Dankworth					25			390
NEW	30	Born To Be With You - The Chordettes						17		280
		Treasure Of Love - Clyde McPhatter					27			260
		Moonglow And Theme From Picnic - Morris Stoloff						18		260
22		Hot Diggity - Perry Como						20		220
		Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton					28			195
		Sadie's Shawl - Frank Cordell					29			130
20		Walk Hand In Hand - Jimmy Parkinson
28		Hot Diggity / The Gal With The Yaller Shoes - Michael Holliday
29		My September Love - David Whitfield

[Splodj]

I wonder if the NME placing of The Goons is a glitch, or if the other charts have reverted to tallying separate sides.

[MrTibbs]

Bill Haley's bandwagon continues to steamroller ahead big time, as Saints re-enters the top ten Rocking Through The Rye smashes straight in at #8 as the 'Rock Era' starts to take hold.

Despite this though the crooner challenge is far from over. Between now and the start of 1957 artists generally associated with hits from the early fifties who haven't made a chart impact for some time will suddenly re-emerge with not only big hits, but #1 hits. Who would have thought a few weeks earlier that Doris Day, Anne Shelton, Frankie Laine, Johnnie Ray and Guy Mitchell would swoop back at this time and conquer all before them. To further rub salt in the 'Rock' wound Both Ray and Mitchell would adapt and have further hits including #1 hits in 1957.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 18th 1956

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 18th 1956							NME	MM	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey			Stores	65	20	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart					TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day					1	2	1	4330
2	2	Why Do Fools Fall In Love - The Teenagers					2	1	2	4225
4	3	A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer					3	3	3	4060
3	4	Walk Hand In Hand - Tony Martin					4	4	5	3855
5	5	Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme					5	5	4	3830
6	6	I'll Be Home - Pat Boone					6	6	6	3625
9	7	The Wayward Wind - Tex Ritter					8	9	8	3315
NEW	8	Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets					9	9	7	3310
7	9	Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis Presley					7	7	13	3120
11	10	The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets					10	11	9	3085
8	11	All Star Hit Parade - Various Artists					11	8	9	3080
13	12	The Wayward Wind - Gogi Grant					13	17	11	2650
14	13	Walk Hand In Hand - Ronnie Carroll					15	13	12	2540
10	14	Who Are We - Ronnie Hilton					14	12	16	2385
22	15	Serenade - Slim Whitman					18	13	14	2225
15	16	Experiments With Mice - Johnny Dankworth					16		15	1935
23	17	I Want You I Need You I Love You - Elvis Presley					20	15	20	1695
19	18	Why Do Fools Fall In Love - Alma Cogan					23		19	1240
12	19	Bluebottle Blues / I'm Walking Backwards For Christmas - The Goons					12			1235
RE	20	Walk Hand In Hand - Jimmy Parkinson					30	19	18	1085
NEW	21	I Almost Lost My Mind - Pat Boone					17			910
16	22	Hot Diggity - Perry Como					22	16		885
17	23	The Faithful Hussar - Ted Heath					18			845
RE	24	Be-Bop-A-Lula - Gene Vincent							17	840
21	25	Left Bank - Winifred Atwell					20			715
24	26	Blue Suede Shoes - Elvis Presley					27	17		540
NEW	27	I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino					24			455
18	28	Hot Diggity / Gal With The Yaller Shoes - Michael Holliday					25			390
25	29	My September Love - David Whitfield					26			325
RE	30	Long Tall Sally - Pat Boone						19		240
30		Bad Penny Blues - Humphrey Lyttleton					28			195
20		Lost John - Lonnie Donegan					29			130
26		Moonglow And Theme From Picnic - Morris Stoloff
27		Only You - The Hilltoppers
28		Carousel Waltz - Ray Martin
29		Too Young To Go Steady - Nat King Cole

[Graham76man]

And Elvis had a re-entry. (in RM only)

RE 24 Blue Suede Shoes - Elvis Presley

Maybe a TV appearance or more likely was played on some radio programme (2 way Family Favourites?).

I was going to highlight his movie GI Blues but that didn't happen until 1960 (maybe a very early preview???).

I don't remember any bargain bin until the 1960s.

There is a site called TV Pop Diaries. I will post the link below and you can check who was on TV for all the decades. I checked both the returning records in question and there was no mention of either act on TV for the few weeks up to the date of the chart.

On the subject of record bargin bins. It wasn't common practice to browse for records at all in racks. Especially as in the 1950's, the 78 was still strong. Also many record shops were called "record dealers" because like car dealers they could only stock certain makes, or in this case labels. So you could only buy an HMV record from an HMV shop or at least one that was allowed the dealership title.
HMV dealers were also not allowed to sell Pye Records, for example. So if you didn't get the right amount of dealers right, when compiling the chart, you could finish up with some labels dominating the chart. I don't know if they took that into account, but if you had more "EMI" labels in you chart, it could be due to the fact there were more EMI dealers in the survey. Bad luck if you were on the other labels!

http://www.tvpopdiaries.co.uk/index.html

[MrTibbs]

Mr Tibbs, please keep up the good work! It's stunning.

No question about it membrane, never fear, this bandwagon will roll on till completion. I'm enjoying this voyage of discovery along with you guys.

[membranemusic]

Mr Tibbs, please keep up the good work! It's stunning.

[brian05]

And Elvis had a re-entry. (in RM only)

RE 24 Blue Suede Shoes - Elvis Presley

Maybe a TV appearance or more likely was played on some radio programme (2 way Family Favourites?).

I was going to highlight his movie GI Blues but that didn't happen until 1960 (maybe a very early preview???).

I don't remember any bargain bin until the 1960s.

[brian05]

EMI was pretty successful in 1963 with Parlophone and Columbia.