The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[MrTibbs]

Hee Hee !

[kingofskiffle]

Oohhh surprises. I like those.

[MrTibbs]

So MM is splitting 'Hound Dog' / 'Don't Be Cruel'. Are they all doing this and, if so, is it preventing Elvis from being number one?

RM will also split Hound Dog/Don't Be Cruel but at best 'Cruel' only ever hovered around the bottom ten of the UAC so didn't really impact much on the outcome at the top. Also given that the combined sides on NME peaked at #2 and failed to reach the top was also a strong indicator that even combined in all charts it would at best be a strong #2.

1957 is going to be kind to Lonnie Donegan but even kinder to Elvis. Also I have a surprise, a first, on the UAC to unleash on you all by the end of 1956 so watch this space

[kjell]

I’ve made chartruns of what you’ve done so far on RM dealers charts Brian. It’s a taste of what will come and has refueled my enthusiasm.

[Splodj]

So MM is splitting 'Hound Dog' / 'Don't Be Cruel'. Are they all doing this and, if so, is it preventing Elvis from being number one?

(Re Top 50s, ones for the 60s would also be interesting using MM and RR and perhaps even a lowly weighted Music Echo. There were some excellent records in the lower reaches then. Obviously the MM Top 50 period would be the most robust. Not that I am wishing any more work on anyone, just saying I would like to see it!)

[kingofskiffle]

Yes really looking forward to it - but we have this for now, and I’m enjoying the 1950’s. Looking forward to 1957 when Mr D gets most of his number 1’s.

[MrTibbs]

I wouldn’t be surprised if it will prove possible to make a top 40 for at least some part of the remaining years till 61.

On actually thinking more about that kjell, if RR could compile a Top 50 using just 30 returns surely a Top 50 could be compiled from RM's 60 returns double that of RR. Now that would indeed be interesting, to see a Top 50 chart starting in the mid fifties, 20 places more than even NME.

Nothing like that currently exists and it would be even more interesting to see how RM's Top 50 compared with that of RR during 60/62 until RM ceased chart publication.

That is gonna be a big project for me next year once I collect the raw data.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending November 3rd 1956

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending November 3rd 1956							NME	MM	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey			Stores	65	20	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart					TOP	30	Scored
1	1	A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine					1	1	1	4350
2	2	Hound Dog - Elvis Presley (A)					2	3	2	4185
5	3	Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray					3	2	3	4080
3	4	Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton					4	4	4	3915
6	5	Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets					6	5	5	3705
4	6	Giddy-Up-A-Ding-Dong - Freddie Bell and The Bell Boys					6	9	7	3505
NEW	7	My Prayer - The Platters					8	6	6	3495
8	8	Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets					5	10	10	3370
13	9	More - Jimmy Young					10	7	8	3225
10	10	When Mexico Gave Up The Rumba - Mitchell Torok					11	8	9	3080
7	11	Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day					9	12	13	2890
20	12	Rock With The Caveman - Tommy Steele					13	15	11	2690
14	13	More - Perry Como (A)					11		12	2440
11	14	Ying Tong Song / Bloodnok's Rock'n'Roll Call - The Goons					14	16	15	2365
19	15	Love Me As Though There Were No Tomorrow - Nat King Cole					15	13	16	2300
12	16	Only You - The Platters (B)						11	18	2253
16	17	See You Later Alligator - Bill Haley and His Comets					18	19	17	1925
18	18	Blue Jean Bop - Gene Vincent					21	20	14	1890
25	19	Autumn Concerto - The Melachrino Orchestra					19	16	18	1860
26	20	Make It A Party - Winifred Atwell					20	16	18	1795
9	21	Bring A Little Water Sylvie - Lonnie Donegan (B)							18	780
NEW	22	The Green Door - Jim Lowe					21			650
22	23	I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino					23			520
21	24	Razzle Dazzle - Bill Haley and His Comets					24			455
17	24	The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets					24			455
NEW	26	Don't Be Cruel - Elvis Presley (B)						14		340
NEW	27	In The Middle Of The House - Alma Cogan					26			325
24	28	A Woman In Love - The Four Aces					27			260
28	29	A House With Love In It - Vera Lynn					28			195
23	30	Glendora - Perry Como (B)					29			130
		Tonight You Belong To Me - Patience and Prudence					30			65
		Bring A Little Water Sylvie / Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan					15
		Only You / The Great Pretender - The Platters					17
15		Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan (A)
27		Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis Presley
29		The Great Pretender - The Platters (A)
30		A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer

[MrTibbs]

Maybe the next project is to write those full RM charts then?

You both have been reading my mind .
I would enjoy moving that project forward again to compile an extended RM chart covering the years 1954 to 1961by using the dealer charts. The challenge is accepted for late Spring next year

[kjell]

I wouldn’t be surprised if it will prove possible to make a top 40 for at least some part of the remaining years till 61.

[kingofskiffle]

Maybe the next project is to write those full RM charts then?

[MrTibbs]

The individual RM dealer charts are fascinating music history and the only insight we have today into all the competing records that could quite easily have been compiled into a Top 30 had RM felt so inclined. But they stopped short.

Yeah much as I like David's book and I applaud all the work and research he put into it I do also feel he missed a golden opportunity when he could easily have listed the next ten in order. The info was at his fingertips.

I will hopefully get back to London in the Spring to capture all the remaining dealer charts from RM. When I do rest assured I will share them.

[kjell]

The problem with Driscoll’s book is that he tried to use RM’s dealers charts to make a bubbling under chart for all the important different UK charts. If he had used that wealth of information to extend the RM charts he would probably be able to make a better chart than the NME chart was at the time. However, Brian who does this thread has done exactly that for the very earliest part of RMs own chart life, an extremely interesting job widening the scope of the era. Let’s hope he’ll get access to the remainder of these dealer charts, they lasted till 1961 March 11.

[MrTibbs]

I actually considered that at the outset too membrane as it initially seemed to be a useful source for extending RM at this time but quickly changed my mind when I reviewed it again for the very reasons you outline above. Take for example the chart above the 27th October, and not one of the ten breakers listed in Colin's book for that week are placed in the NME 21 to 30 positions or higher. Also like you say it makes no allowance for records leaving the top twenty.

I love the book but it would further diminish not improve upon the authority of the 21 to 30 positions because of the points we raised.

That said I thank you for your thought provoking input membrane. I love you guys getting involved in this with your theories and factual comments lots of which actually do help in difficult compilation situations.

[membranemusic]

Sorry to contribute more to the storm-in-a-teacup of Nos 21-30, but there is yet another 5th way for this particular era.
I refer to the recent publication of RM Bubblers (C Driscoll).
We all know that Bubblers #1-10 are not the same as Sellers #21-30.
However if you presume that Bubbler No. 1 is RM No.21 (which it isn't, necessarily), then you get another set of contenders which in theory match up to some of the NME Nos.21-30 entries, and we cannot also ignore the droppers outside the RM Top 20...

I have tried this out - and it's war down there! So I am not seriously suggesting this, even though there's a 2nd version of Autumn Concerto in a revised T30!

The UAC is fine as it is.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 27th 1956

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 27th 1956							NME	MM	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey			Stores	65	20	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart					TOP	30	Scored
1	1	A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine					1	1	1	4350
3	2	Hound Dog - Elvis Presley					2	3	2	4185
2	3	Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton					3	2	3	4080
4	4	Giddy-Up-A-Ding-Dong - Freddie Bell and The Bell Boys					4	5	4	3895
14	5	Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray					5	4	5	3790
6	6	Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets					7	6	6	3560
5	7	Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day					6	8	8	3465
9	8	Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets					8	10	7	3355
10	9	Bring A Little Water Sylvie - Lonnie Donegan (B)						11	11	2900
11	10	When Mexico Gave Up The Rumba - Mitchell Torok					14	9	9	2865
8	11	Ying Tong Song / Bloodnok's Rock'n'Roll Call - The Goons					12	15	10	2815
7	12	Only You - The Platters (B)						7	15	2740
20	13	More - Jimmy Young					11	15	13	2700
15	14	More - Perry Como					13	12	12	2690
16	15	Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan (A)						13	17	2240
13	16	See You Later Alligator - Bill Haley and His Comets					15		16	1940
19	17	The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets					16		19	1695
29	18	Blue Jean Bop - Gene Vincent					28	18	14	1475
28	19	Love Me As Though There Were No Tomorrow - Nat King Cole					16	20		1195
NEW	20	Rock With The Caveman - Tommy Steele					26		17	1165
17	21	Razzle Dazzle - Bill Haley and His Comets					24		20	1115
RE	22	I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino					20	18		975
24	23	Glendora - Perry Como					18			845
21	24	A Woman In Love - The Four Aces					19			780
23	25	Autumn Concerto - The Melachrino Orchestra					21			650
NEW	26	Make It A Party - Winifred Atwell					22			585
RE	27	Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis Presley					23			520
NEW	28	A House With Love In It - Vera Lynn					25			390
12	29	The Great Pretender - The Platters (A)						14		340
22	30	A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer						17		280
		St. Theresa Of The Roses - Malcolm Vaughan					27			260
18		Born To Be With You - The Chordettes					29			130
27		Teach You To Rock / Short'nin Bread - Tony Crombie and His Rockets					30			65
		The Green Door - Jim Lowe					30			65
		Bring A Little Water Sylvie / Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan					9
		Only You / The Great Pretender - The Platters					10
25		Walk Hand In Hand - Tony Martin
26		Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme
30		I Don't Care - Liberace

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 20th 1956

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 20th 1956							NME	MM	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey			Stores	65	20	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart					TOP	30	Scored
2	1	A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine					1	1	1	4350
1	2	Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton					2	2	2	4205
4	3	Hound Dog - Elvis Presley					3	3	3	4060
5	4	Giddy-Up-A-Ding-Dong - Freddie Bell and The Bell Boys					4	4	4	3915
3	5	Whatever Will Be Will Be- Doris Day					5	5	5	3770
8	6	Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets					6	7	6	3605
6	7	Only You - The Platters (B)						6	8	3440
7	8	Ying Tong Song / Bloodnok's Rock'n'Roll Call - The Goons					10	8	7	3265
9	9	Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets					9	9	9	3190
10	10	Bring A Little Water Sylvie - Lonnie Donegan (B)						10	10	3045
13	11	When Mexico Gave Up The Rumba - Mitchell Torok					11	11	11	2900
19	12	The Great Pretender - The Platters (A)						11	12	2808
17	13	See You Later Alligator - Bill Haley and His Comets					12	19	13	2555
24	14	Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray					13	15	14	2510
15	15	More - Perry Como (A)					14	16	17	2245
14	16	Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan (A)						18	15	2163
16	17	Razzle Dazzle - Bill Haley and His Comets					15	20	16	2160
11	18	Born To Be With You - The Chordettes					18	17	18	1905
12	19	The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets					17		19	1630
21	20	More - Jimmy Young					16	13		1335
NEW	21	A Woman In Love - The Four Aces					21		20	1310
18	22	A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer					22	13		945
NEW	23	Autumn Concerto - The Melachrino Orchestra					19			780
27	24	Glendora - Perry Como (B)					20			715
22	25	Walk Hand In Hand - Tony Martin					23			520
23	26	Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme					24			455
NEW	27	Teach You To Rock / Short'nin Bread - Tony Crombie and His Rockets					25			390
30	28	Love Me As Though There Were No Tomorrow - Nat King Cole					26			325
NEW	29	Blue Jean Bop - Gene Vincent					27			260
NEW	30	I Don't Care - Liberace					28			195
28		Ten Thousand Miles - Michael Holliday					29			130
26		I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino					30			65
		Only You / The Great Pretender - The Platters					8
		Bring A Little Water Sylvie / Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan					7
20		Why Do Fools Fall In Love - The Teenagers
25		Guys And Dolls (EP) - Marlon Brando and Jean Simmons
29		Serenade - Slim Whitman

[MrTibbs]

Space in the paper? They may have felt that the charts they where doing (Top 20, British chart, Albums Top 5) and printing the weekly shop top 10's where enough.

It's possible Lonnie but if that was the case it was not very far thinking on their past just treading water. It certainly allowed NME to get the upper hand and maybe, just maybe, if RM had been a bit braver and more innovative then it wouldn't have fallen by the wayside in 1962 sadly.

[kingofskiffle]

Space in the paper? They may have felt that the charts they where doing (Top 20, British chart, Albums Top 5) and printing the weekly shop top 10's where enough.

[MrTibbs]

What is still a bit of a mystery to me, is that by this time RM had never extended to a Top 30. Given that RM was polling around 60 shops just below NME that was more than enough for that time to easily justify a Top 30 but for some reason they stuck with a Top 20 rather than compete with NME who had moved to an extended chart back in March.

It wouldn't have entailed much more work as the figures would already have been available to compile their Top 20 with lots of completed tallies below that still available to them. I know from my RM Early Charts 54/55 that I could compile a Top 30 from less than half that number of returns.

[Graham76man]

Back then also there was less reluctance on Record Companies to release new records before the old one drops out of the chart, or at least has had it's peak. By the middle 1960's Record Companies waited till a single by a current had died off before releasing the new records. Of course there were always exceptions to this "rule". But it wasn't really a rule, just a sort of belief that releasing a new single could damage the sales of the older track.
It was even worse in the late 1940's and very early 1950's when artists had several records out in the same month, especially Bing Crosby. Mind you some of these (like Bing's) were due to some kind of contractual obligation to release records.

[kingofskiffle]

Bill Haley is at the peak of his chart domination. He has 5 singles in the Top 20 including Rock Around Around The Clock climbing back into the Top10. Quite an achievement.

Yes, very few would go on to have the same success whilst alive until you get to Ed Sheeran... but that's down to a changed music consumption path whereby anything can be accessed rather than what's in the shops and selling well, as in this case.

[MrTibbs]

Bill Haley is at the peak of his chart domination. He has 5 singles in the Top 20 including Rock Around Around The Clock climbing back into the Top10. Quite an achievement.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 13th 1956

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 13th 1956							NME	MM	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey			Stores	65	20	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart					TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton					1	1	1	4350
2	2	A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine					2	2	2	4205
3	3	Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day					4	4	3	3975
4	4	Hound Dog - Elvis Presley					3	3	5	3940
5	5	Giddy-Up-A-Ding-Dong - Freddie Bell and The Bell Boys					7	5	4	3700
8	6	Only You - The Platters (B)						6	7	3533
7	7	Ying Tong Song / Bloodnok's Rock'n'Roll Call - The Goons					6	10	8	3425
6	8	Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets					9	7	6	3410
11	9	Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets					8	8	10	3215
10	10	Bring A Little Water Sylvie - Lonnie Donegan (B)						10	9	3138
12	11	Born To Be With You - The Chordettes					12	14	12	2715
13	12	The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets					11	13	15	2620
17	13	When Mexico Gave Up The Rumba - Mitchell Torok					14	9	14	2565
14	14	Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan (A)						17	13	2400
22	15	More - Perry Como (A)					15	15	18	2140
16	16	Razzle Dazzle - Bill Haley and His Comets					17	19	16	2050
19	17	See You Later Alligator - Bill Haley and His Comets					20		17	1555
20	18	A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer					13	12		1550
9	19	The Great Pretender - The Platters (A)							11	1200
18	20	Why Do Fools Fall In Love - The Teenagers					23		20	1180
26	21	More - Jimmy Young					20	15		1035
15	22	Walk Hand In Hand - Tony Martin					16			975
21	23	Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme					18			845
NEW	24	Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray					19			780
NEW	25	Guys And Dolls (EP) - Marlon Brando and Jean Simmons							19	720
23	26	I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino					22			585
RE	27	Glendora - Perry Como (B)					27	19		500
NEW	28	Ten Thousand Miles - Michael Holliday					24			455
28	29	Serenade - Slim Whitman					25			390
29	30	Love Me As Though There Were No Tomorrow - Nat King Cole					26			325
		Autumn Concerto - The Melachrino Orchestra					30	18		325
		Race With The Devil - Gene Vincent					28			195
		Serenade - Mario Lanza					29			130
		Only You / The Great Pretender - The Platters					5
		Bring A Little Water Sylvie / Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan					10
24		A Woman In Love - Ronnie Hilton
25		You Are My First Love - Ruby Murray
27		Be-Bop-A-Lula - Gene Vincent
30		Walk Hand In Hand - Jimmy Parkinson

[Splodj]

Robin - giving priority to records that appear in all 3 charts, as per your eye deer, is somewhat achieved in scenario (c) by reducing the unfair advantage to absentees.