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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    commented on 's reply
    Hee Hee !

  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Oohhh surprises. I like those.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    So MM is splitting 'Hound Dog' / 'Don't Be Cruel'. Are they all doing this and, if so, is it preventing Elvis from being number one?
    RM will also split Hound Dog/Don't Be Cruel but at best 'Cruel' only ever hovered around the bottom ten of the UAC so didn't really impact much on the outcome at the top. Also given that the combined sides on NME peaked at #2 and failed to reach the top was also a strong indicator that even combined in all charts it would at best be a strong #2.

    1957 is going to be kind to Lonnie Donegan but even kinder to Elvis. Also I have a surprise, a first, on the UAC to unleash on you all by the end of 1956 so watch this space

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    I’ve made chartruns of what you’ve done so far on RM dealers charts Brian. It’s a taste of what will come and has refueled my enthusiasm.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    So MM is splitting 'Hound Dog' / 'Don't Be Cruel'. Are they all doing this and, if so, is it preventing Elvis from being number one?

    (Re Top 50s, ones for the 60s would also be interesting using MM and RR and perhaps even a lowly weighted Music Echo. There were some excellent records in the lower reaches then. Obviously the MM Top 50 period would be the most robust. Not that I am wishing any more work on anyone, just saying I would like to see it!)

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Yes really looking forward to it - but we have this for now, and I’m enjoying the 1950’s. Looking forward to 1957 when Mr D gets most of his number 1’s.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by kjell View Post
    I wouldn’t be surprised if it will prove possible to make a top 40 for at least some part of the remaining years till 61.
    On actually thinking more about that kjell, if RR could compile a Top 50 using just 30 returns surely a Top 50 could be compiled from RM's 60 returns double that of RR. Now that would indeed be interesting, to see a Top 50 chart starting in the mid fifties, 20 places more than even NME.

    Nothing like that currently exists and it would be even more interesting to see how RM's Top 50 compared with that of RR during 60/62 until RM ceased chart publication.

    That is gonna be a big project for me next year once I collect the raw data.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending November 3rd 1956

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending November 3rd 1956 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 20 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine 1 1 1 4350
    2 2 Hound Dog - Elvis Presley (A) 2 3 2 4185
    5 3 Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray 3 2 3 4080
    3 4 Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton 4 4 4 3915
    6 5 Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets 6 5 5 3705
    4 6 Giddy-Up-A-Ding-Dong - Freddie Bell and The Bell Boys 6 9 7 3505
    NEW 7 My Prayer - The Platters 8 6 6 3495
    8 8 Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets 5 10 10 3370
    13 9 More - Jimmy Young 10 7 8 3225
    10 10 When Mexico Gave Up The Rumba - Mitchell Torok 11 8 9 3080
    7 11 Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day 9 12 13 2890
    20 12 Rock With The Caveman - Tommy Steele 13 15 11 2690
    14 13 More - Perry Como (A) 11 12 2440
    11 14 Ying Tong Song / Bloodnok's Rock'n'Roll Call - The Goons 14 16 15 2365
    19 15 Love Me As Though There Were No Tomorrow - Nat King Cole 15 13 16 2300
    12 16 Only You - The Platters (B) 11 18 2253
    16 17 See You Later Alligator - Bill Haley and His Comets 18 19 17 1925
    18 18 Blue Jean Bop - Gene Vincent 21 20 14 1890
    25 19 Autumn Concerto - The Melachrino Orchestra 19 16 18 1860
    26 20 Make It A Party - Winifred Atwell 20 16 18 1795
    9 21 Bring A Little Water Sylvie - Lonnie Donegan (B) 18 780
    NEW 22 The Green Door - Jim Lowe 21 650
    22 23 I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino 23 520
    21 24 Razzle Dazzle - Bill Haley and His Comets 24 455
    17 24 The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets 24 455
    NEW 26 Don't Be Cruel - Elvis Presley (B) 14 340
    NEW 27 In The Middle Of The House - Alma Cogan 26 325
    24 28 A Woman In Love - The Four Aces 27 260
    28 29 A House With Love In It - Vera Lynn 28 195
    23 30 Glendora - Perry Como (B) 29 130
    Tonight You Belong To Me - Patience and Prudence 30 65
    Bring A Little Water Sylvie / Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan 15
    Only You / The Great Pretender - The Platters 17
    15 Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan (A)
    27 Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis Presley
    29 The Great Pretender - The Platters (A)
    30 A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post
    Maybe the next project is to write those full RM charts then?
    You both have been reading my mind .
    I would enjoy moving that project forward again to compile an extended RM chart covering the years 1954 to 1961by using the dealer charts. The challenge is accepted for late Spring next year

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    I wouldn’t be surprised if it will prove possible to make a top 40 for at least some part of the remaining years till 61.

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Maybe the next project is to write those full RM charts then?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The individual RM dealer charts are fascinating music history and the only insight we have today into all the competing records that could quite easily have been compiled into a Top 30 had RM felt so inclined. But they stopped short.

    Yeah much as I like David's book and I applaud all the work and research he put into it I do also feel he missed a golden opportunity when he could easily have listed the next ten in order. The info was at his fingertips.

    I will hopefully get back to London in the Spring to capture all the remaining dealer charts from RM. When I do rest assured I will share them.

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    The problem with Driscoll’s book is that he tried to use RM’s dealers charts to make a bubbling under chart for all the important different UK charts. If he had used that wealth of information to extend the RM charts he would probably be able to make a better chart than the NME chart was at the time. However, Brian who does this thread has done exactly that for the very earliest part of RMs own chart life, an extremely interesting job widening the scope of the era. Let’s hope he’ll get access to the remainder of these dealer charts, they lasted till 1961 March 11.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I actually considered that at the outset too membrane as it initially seemed to be a useful source for extending RM at this time but quickly changed my mind when I reviewed it again for the very reasons you outline above. Take for example the chart above the 27th October, and not one of the ten breakers listed in Colin's book for that week are placed in the NME 21 to 30 positions or higher. Also like you say it makes no allowance for records leaving the top twenty.

    I love the book but it would further diminish not improve upon the authority of the 21 to 30 positions because of the points we raised.

    That said I thank you for your thought provoking input membrane. I love you guys getting involved in this with your theories and factual comments lots of which actually do help in difficult compilation situations.

    Leave a comment:


  • membranemusic
    replied
    Sorry to contribute more to the storm-in-a-teacup of Nos 21-30, but there is yet another 5th way for this particular era.
    I refer to the recent publication of RM Bubblers (C Driscoll).
    We all know that Bubblers #1-10 are not the same as Sellers #21-30.
    However if you presume that Bubbler No. 1 is RM No.21 (which it isn't, necessarily), then you get another set of contenders which in theory match up to some of the NME Nos.21-30 entries, and we cannot also ignore the droppers outside the RM Top 20...

    I have tried this out - and it's war down there! So I am not seriously suggesting this, even though there's a 2nd version of Autumn Concerto in a revised T30!

    The UAC is fine as it is.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 27th 1956

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 27th 1956 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 20 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine 1 1 1 4350
    3 2 Hound Dog - Elvis Presley 2 3 2 4185
    2 3 Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton 3 2 3 4080
    4 4 Giddy-Up-A-Ding-Dong - Freddie Bell and The Bell Boys 4 5 4 3895
    14 5 Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray 5 4 5 3790
    6 6 Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets 7 6 6 3560
    5 7 Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day 6 8 8 3465
    9 8 Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets 8 10 7 3355
    10 9 Bring A Little Water Sylvie - Lonnie Donegan (B) 11 11 2900
    11 10 When Mexico Gave Up The Rumba - Mitchell Torok 14 9 9 2865
    8 11 Ying Tong Song / Bloodnok's Rock'n'Roll Call - The Goons 12 15 10 2815
    7 12 Only You - The Platters (B) 7 15 2740
    20 13 More - Jimmy Young 11 15 13 2700
    15 14 More - Perry Como 13 12 12 2690
    16 15 Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan (A) 13 17 2240
    13 16 See You Later Alligator - Bill Haley and His Comets 15 16 1940
    19 17 The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets 16 19 1695
    29 18 Blue Jean Bop - Gene Vincent 28 18 14 1475
    28 19 Love Me As Though There Were No Tomorrow - Nat King Cole 16 20 1195
    NEW 20 Rock With The Caveman - Tommy Steele 26 17 1165
    17 21 Razzle Dazzle - Bill Haley and His Comets 24 20 1115
    RE 22 I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino 20 18 975
    24 23 Glendora - Perry Como 18 845
    21 24 A Woman In Love - The Four Aces 19 780
    23 25 Autumn Concerto - The Melachrino Orchestra 21 650
    NEW 26 Make It A Party - Winifred Atwell 22 585
    RE 27 Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis Presley 23 520
    NEW 28 A House With Love In It - Vera Lynn 25 390
    12 29 The Great Pretender - The Platters (A) 14 340
    22 30 A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer 17 280
    St. Theresa Of The Roses - Malcolm Vaughan 27 260
    18 Born To Be With You - The Chordettes 29 130
    27 Teach You To Rock / Short'nin Bread - Tony Crombie and His Rockets 30 65
    The Green Door - Jim Lowe 30 65
    Bring A Little Water Sylvie / Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan 9
    Only You / The Great Pretender - The Platters 10
    25 Walk Hand In Hand - Tony Martin
    26 Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme
    30 I Don't Care - Liberace

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 20th 1956

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 20th 1956 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 20 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    2 1 A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine 1 1 1 4350
    1 2 Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton 2 2 2 4205
    4 3 Hound Dog - Elvis Presley 3 3 3 4060
    5 4 Giddy-Up-A-Ding-Dong - Freddie Bell and The Bell Boys 4 4 4 3915
    3 5 Whatever Will Be Will Be- Doris Day 5 5 5 3770
    8 6 Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets 6 7 6 3605
    6 7 Only You - The Platters (B) 6 8 3440
    7 8 Ying Tong Song / Bloodnok's Rock'n'Roll Call - The Goons 10 8 7 3265
    9 9 Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets 9 9 9 3190
    10 10 Bring A Little Water Sylvie - Lonnie Donegan (B) 10 10 3045
    13 11 When Mexico Gave Up The Rumba - Mitchell Torok 11 11 11 2900
    19 12 The Great Pretender - The Platters (A) 11 12 2808
    17 13 See You Later Alligator - Bill Haley and His Comets 12 19 13 2555
    24 14 Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray 13 15 14 2510
    15 15 More - Perry Como (A) 14 16 17 2245
    14 16 Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan (A) 18 15 2163
    16 17 Razzle Dazzle - Bill Haley and His Comets 15 20 16 2160
    11 18 Born To Be With You - The Chordettes 18 17 18 1905
    12 19 The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets 17 19 1630
    21 20 More - Jimmy Young 16 13 1335
    NEW 21 A Woman In Love - The Four Aces 21 20 1310
    18 22 A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer 22 13 945
    NEW 23 Autumn Concerto - The Melachrino Orchestra 19 780
    27 24 Glendora - Perry Como (B) 20 715
    22 25 Walk Hand In Hand - Tony Martin 23 520
    23 26 Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme 24 455
    NEW 27 Teach You To Rock / Short'nin Bread - Tony Crombie and His Rockets 25 390
    30 28 Love Me As Though There Were No Tomorrow - Nat King Cole 26 325
    NEW 29 Blue Jean Bop - Gene Vincent 27 260
    NEW 30 I Don't Care - Liberace 28 195
    28 Ten Thousand Miles - Michael Holliday 29 130
    26 I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino 30 65
    Only You / The Great Pretender - The Platters 8
    Bring A Little Water Sylvie / Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan 7
    20 Why Do Fools Fall In Love - The Teenagers
    25 Guys And Dolls (EP) - Marlon Brando and Jean Simmons
    29 Serenade - Slim Whitman

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post
    Space in the paper? They may have felt that the charts they where doing (Top 20, British chart, Albums Top 5) and printing the weekly shop top 10's where enough.
    It's possible Lonnie but if that was the case it was not very far thinking on their past just treading water. It certainly allowed NME to get the upper hand and maybe, just maybe, if RM had been a bit braver and more innovative then it wouldn't have fallen by the wayside in 1962 sadly.

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Space in the paper? They may have felt that the charts they where doing (Top 20, British chart, Albums Top 5) and printing the weekly shop top 10's where enough.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    What is still a bit of a mystery to me, is that by this time RM had never extended to a Top 30. Given that RM was polling around 60 shops just below NME that was more than enough for that time to easily justify a Top 30 but for some reason they stuck with a Top 20 rather than compete with NME who had moved to an extended chart back in March.

    It wouldn't have entailed much more work as the figures would already have been available to compile their Top 20 with lots of completed tallies below that still available to them. I know from my RM Early Charts 54/55 that I could compile a Top 30 from less than half that number of returns.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Back then also there was less reluctance on Record Companies to release new records before the old one drops out of the chart, or at least has had it's peak. By the middle 1960's Record Companies waited till a single by a current had died off before releasing the new records. Of course there were always exceptions to this "rule". But it wasn't really a rule, just a sort of belief that releasing a new single could damage the sales of the older track.
    It was even worse in the late 1940's and very early 1950's when artists had several records out in the same month, especially Bing Crosby. Mind you some of these (like Bing's) were due to some kind of contractual obligation to release records.

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    Bill Haley is at the peak of his chart domination. He has 5 singles in the Top 20 including Rock Around Around The Clock climbing back into the Top10. Quite an achievement.
    Yes, very few would go on to have the same success whilst alive until you get to Ed Sheeran... but that's down to a changed music consumption path whereby anything can be accessed rather than what's in the shops and selling well, as in this case.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Bill Haley is at the peak of his chart domination. He has 5 singles in the Top 20 including Rock Around Around The Clock climbing back into the Top10. Quite an achievement.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 13th 1956

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 13th 1956 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 20 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton 1 1 1 4350
    2 2 A Woman In Love - Frankie Laine 2 2 2 4205
    3 3 Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day 4 4 3 3975
    4 4 Hound Dog - Elvis Presley 3 3 5 3940
    5 5 Giddy-Up-A-Ding-Dong - Freddie Bell and The Bell Boys 7 5 4 3700
    8 6 Only You - The Platters (B) 6 7 3533
    7 7 Ying Tong Song / Bloodnok's Rock'n'Roll Call - The Goons 6 10 8 3425
    6 8 Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets 9 7 6 3410
    11 9 Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets 8 8 10 3215
    10 10 Bring A Little Water Sylvie - Lonnie Donegan (B) 10 9 3138
    12 11 Born To Be With You - The Chordettes 12 14 12 2715
    13 12 The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets 11 13 15 2620
    17 13 When Mexico Gave Up The Rumba - Mitchell Torok 14 9 14 2565
    14 14 Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan (A) 17 13 2400
    22 15 More - Perry Como (A) 15 15 18 2140
    16 16 Razzle Dazzle - Bill Haley and His Comets 17 19 16 2050
    19 17 See You Later Alligator - Bill Haley and His Comets 20 17 1555
    20 18 A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer 13 12 1550
    9 19 The Great Pretender - The Platters (A) 11 1200
    18 20 Why Do Fools Fall In Love - The Teenagers 23 20 1180
    26 21 More - Jimmy Young 20 15 1035
    15 22 Walk Hand In Hand - Tony Martin 16 975
    21 23 Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme 18 845
    NEW 24 Just Walking In The Rain - Johnnie Ray 19 780
    NEW 25 Guys And Dolls (EP) - Marlon Brando and Jean Simmons 19 720
    23 26 I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino 22 585
    RE 27 Glendora - Perry Como (B) 27 19 500
    NEW 28 Ten Thousand Miles - Michael Holliday 24 455
    28 29 Serenade - Slim Whitman 25 390
    29 30 Love Me As Though There Were No Tomorrow - Nat King Cole 26 325
    Autumn Concerto - The Melachrino Orchestra 30 18 325
    Race With The Devil - Gene Vincent 28 195
    Serenade - Mario Lanza 29 130
    Only You / The Great Pretender - The Platters 5
    Bring A Little Water Sylvie / Dead Or Alive - Lonnie Donegan 10
    24 A Woman In Love - Ronnie Hilton
    25 You Are My First Love - Ruby Murray
    27 Be-Bop-A-Lula - Gene Vincent
    30 Walk Hand In Hand - Jimmy Parkinson

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Robin - giving priority to records that appear in all 3 charts, as per your eye deer, is somewhat achieved in scenario (c) by reducing the unfair advantage to absentees.

    Leave a comment:

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