The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

There are 12 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending November 19th 1960.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending November 19th 1960								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	1	9900
2	2	Only The Lonely - Roy Orbison					2	4	4	2	3	4	9180
4	3	Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes					4=	6	3	3	4	3	8950
3	4	As Long As He Needs Me - Shirley Bassey					3	2	5	6	2	2	8950
6	5	My Heart Has A Mind Of It's Own - Connie Francis					6	5	2	5	5	6	8730
5	6	Dreamin' - Johnny Burnette					4=	3	8	4	6	5	8620
11	7	Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters					7	7	6	7	8	8	7900
18	8	Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows					8	9	7	8	7	7	7650
7	9	Let's Think About Living - Bob Luman					9=	12	11	9	9	9	6900
25	10	Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren					9=	8	9	11	10	18	6800
21	11	Kommotion - Duane Eddy					11	13	10	12	13	16	6140
15	12	My Love For You - Johnny Mathis					12	10	16	10	19	10	6120
13	13	McDonald's Cave - The Piltdown Men					13	14	12	16	11	15	5630
8	14	Nine Times Out Of Ten - Cliff Richard					15	21	15	13	16	13	5030
9	15	How About That - Adam Faith					14	18	20	14	15	19	4730
23	16	Milord - Edith Piaf					19	16	17	18	20	27	4140
19	17	Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison					20	22	13	15		20	3890
14	18	Chain Gang - Sam Cooke					15	19		19	12	12	3800
10	19	So Sad / Lucille - The Everly Brothers					17	22		17	14	11	3710
20	20	Mr. Custer - Charlie Drake					18	15	14		17	14	3510
12	21	Walk Don't Run - The John Barry Seven						26	18	20	18	17	3460
27	22	Sorry Robbie - Bert Weedon						24	18				1340
NEW	23	Little Donkey - Nina and Frederick						17				30	1150
29	24	Just As Much As Ever - Nat King Cole						20				24	1090
26	25	Them There Eyes - Emile Ford and The Checkmates						25				29	540
NEW	26	Milord - Frankie Vaughan						26					400
22	27	Short'nin' Bread - The Viscounts										21	300
17	28	Please Help Me I'm Falling - Hank Locklin										22	270
NEW	29	Rockin' Alone - Miki and Griff						28					240
16	30	Tell Laura I Love Her - Ricky Valance										23	240
		The Stranger - The Shadows						11
		Apache - The Shadows										25	180
		Never On Sunday - Manuel and The Music Of The Mountains						29					160
		Top Teen Baby - Garry Mills										26	150
		The Girl Of My Best Friend / A Mess Of Blues - Elvis Presley										28	90
		Don't Be Cruel - Bill Black's Combo						30					80

[BrainDamageII]

3 Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes 6 3 3 4 3 8950
4 As Long As He Needs Me - Shirley Bassey 2 5 6 2 2 8950

What is tie break criteria? Shirley looks like she should be above Hurricanes

[MrTibbs]

Criteria for tie breaking brain is still the same as described on page 1. When a tie occurs it is broken by placing on highest store sample chart. In this case MM with most 110 who has Shirley at 6 and Hurricanes at 3.

[BrainDamageII]

Thanks for that. This one just looks odd!! More than happy with how you are doing it. Got to be consistent. Keep it going. Enjoying all the nostalgia

[MrTibbs]

Thanks for those words of encouragement Brain, it really is most appreciated. It's difficult at times to apply a rule with 'one size fits all' but if we don't have a consistent rule like you say the process becomes subjective and open to manipulation, and at the end of the day I want to present a chart that's open with clear methodology that everyone can see.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

There are 14 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending November 26th 1960.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending November 26th 1960								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	1	9900
3	2	Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes					3	4	3	2	6	4	9090
7	3	Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters					2	2	4	3	5	6	9070
5	4	My Heart Has A Mind Of Its Own - Connie Francis					4	6	5	6	2	3	8600
8	5	Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows*					6=	8	2	7	4	7	8530
4	6	As Long As He Needs Me - Shirley Bassey					5	4	6	8	3	2	8460
6	7	Dreamin' - Johnny Burnette					8	7	8	5	9	5	8040
10	8	Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren					6=	3	7	9	7	8	7990
2	9	Only The Lonely - Roy Orbison					9	11	9	4	8	9	7700
23	10	Little Donkey - Nina and Frederick					10	10	13	10	11	16	6520
11	11	Kommotion - Duane Eddy					11	15	12	13	10	13	5990
9	12	Let's Think About Living - Bob Luman					13	17	16	12	12	11	5660
NEW	13	Lively - Lonnie Donegan					14	14	10	17	13		5060
12	14	My Love For You - Johnny Mathis					12	16		11	14	10	4880
17	15	Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison					16	23	15	14	17	17	4590
NEW	16	Strawberry Fair / A Boy Without A Girl - Anthony Newley					18	13	11	19	19		4560
16	17	Milord - Edith Piaf					20	18	19	18	20	25	3920
13	18	McDonald's Cave - The Piltdown Men					17	20		16	16	15	3760
20	19	Mr. Custer - Charlie Drake					19	19	17		15	12	3170
NEW	20	Ol' MacDonald - Frank Sinatra					15	9	14			30	2810
14	21	Nine Times Out Of Ten - Cliff Richard								15		20	2090
15	22	How About That - Adam Faith								20		19	1570
NEW	23	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson						24	20				1220
24	24	Just As Much As Ever - Nat King Cole						21				18	1190
22	25	Sorry Robbie - Bert Weedon						28			18	28	980
NEW	26	Wild Side Of Life - Josh McCrae							18				780
NEW	27	Even More Party Pops - Russ Conway						22					720
NEW	28	Lonely Pup - Adam Faith						25				27	600
19	29	So Sad / Lucille - The Everly Brothers						27				23	560
18	30	Chain Gang - Sam Cooke										14	510
		The Stranger - The Shadows						12
		Perfidia - The Ventures						26					400
		Walk Don't Run - The John Barry Seven										21	300
		Short'nin' Bread - The Viscounts										22	270
		Milord - Frankie Vaughan						28					240
		Please Help Me I'm Falling - Hank Locklin										24	210
		Kicking Up The Leaves - Mark Wynter										26	150
		Don't Be Cruel - Bill Black's Combo						30					80
		Never On Sunday - Manuel and The Music Of The Mountains						30					80
		Top Teen Baby - Garry Mills										29	60
		* This week the split sides would have affected NME's
		averaged chart position so an average was taken
		from the other 4 charts giving an average of 5
		to The Shadows and awarded to NME to give a
		more representative chart position for both sides
		together.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

There are 7 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 3rd 1960.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 3rd 1960								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	1	9900
3	2	Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters					2	2	2	2	3	2	9520
5	3	Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows					3	6	3	4	2	5	8880
2	4	Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes					4=	5	6	3	5	3	8800
8	5	Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren					4=	4	5	5	4	4	8740
16	6	Strawberry Fair / A Boy Without A Girl - Anthony Newley					6	3	4	9	10	12	7900
4	7	My Heart Has A Mind Of Its Own - Connie Francis					7	7	7	8	8	7	7760
10	8	Little Donkey - Nina and Frederick					8	11	10	6	7	8	7500
7	9	Dreamin' - Johnny Burnette					9	9	11	7	9	9	7360
6	10	As Long As He Needs Me - Shirley Bassey					10	10	9	10	6	6	7310
NEW	11	I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard					11	8	8	12	14	23	6400
20	12	Ol' MacDonald - Frank Sinatra					12	12	14	14	12	16	5810
9	13	Only The Lonely - Roy Orbison					13	16	20	11	13	11	5560
13	14	Lively - Lonnie Donegan					14	14	15	18	11	18	5140
14	15	My Love For You - Johnny Mathis					15	18	16	13	19	13	5060
NEW	16	Gurney Slade - Max Harris					17	14	13	19			3760
12	17	Let's Think About Living - Bob Luman					18	24		15	18	10	3600
23	18	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson					19=	20	12	17			3560
28	19	Lonely Pup - Adam Faith					16	22		16	15	21	3470
15	20	Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops						19	18		20	15	2770
17	21	Milord - Edith Piaf					19=	17		20		25	2510
11	22	Kommotion - Duane Eddy						21			16	19	1910
19	23	Mr. Custer - Charlie Drake						25			17	14	1690
NEW	24	Kicking Up The Leaves - Mark Wynter							19			24	930
26	25	Wild Side Of Life - Josh McCrae							17				840
24	26	Just As Much As Ever - Nat King Cole						26				20	730
NEW	27	Perfidia - The Ventures						23					640
18	28	McDonald's Cave - The Piltdown Men						29				17	580
27	29	Even More Party Pops - Russ Conway						27					320
30	30	Chain Gang - Sam Cooke										22	270
		The Stranger - The Shadows						13
		Milord - Frankie Vaughan						28					240
		Please Help Me I'm Falling - Hank Locklin										26	150
		So Sad / Lucille - The Everly Brothers										27	120
		Nine Times Out Of Ten - Cliff Richard										28	90
		Georgia On My Mind - Ray Charles						30					80
		Sorry Robbie - Bert Weedon										29	60
		Top Teen Baby - Garry Mills										30	30

[MrTibbs]

Garry Mills' Top Teen Baby is a time capsule of the era as far as terminology goes with references to 'chicks' 'nylon hose' 'petticoats' 'bopping' 'Saturday hops' 'dig her' 'wiggle when she walks'. Try saying those terms to the women now

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

There are 8 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 10th 1960.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 10th 1960								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	1	9900
2	2	Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters					2	2	2	2	2	2	9570
11	3	I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard					3	4	4	3	5	4	8970
6	4	Strawberry Fair / A Boy Without A Girl - Anthony Newley					4	3	3	5	6	8	8720
8	5	Little Donkey - Nina and Frederick					7	6	6	4	8	3	8460
3	6	Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows					6	7	5	7	3	5	8460
5	7	Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren					5	5	7	6	4	7	8340
4	8	Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes					8	8	8	8	7	6	7700
7	9	My Heart Has A Mind Of It's Own - Connie Francis					9	15	11	9	9	10	6630
10	10	As Long As He Needs Me - Shirley Bassey					11	12	12	13	10	9	6350
19	11	Lonely Pup - Adam Faith					10	9	13	11	15	18	6230
16	12	Gurney Slade - Max Harris					13	10	10	12	16	19	6140
9	13	Dreamin' - Johnny Burnette					12	14	14	10	13	14	6100
18	14	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson					14	11	9	14	14	22	5910
12	15	Ol' MacDonald - Frank Sinatra					15	16	17	15	11	11	5400
15	16	My Love For You - Johnny Mathis					17=	17	18	17	19	12	4610
20	17	Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison					17=	13	18	20	20	17	4400
14	18	Lively - Lonnie Donegan					16	19		16	12	13	4100
13	19	Only The Lonely - Roy Orbison					19	27		18	17	15	2930
27	20	Perfidia - The Ventures					20	20	16		18	27	2550
21	21	Milord - Edith Piaf						24		19		26	2030
NEW	22	Georgia On My Mind - Ray Charles						18					1040
26	23	Just As Much As Ever - Nat King Cole						21				23	1040
22	24	Kommotion - Duane Eddy						23				20	970
25	25	Wild Side Of Life - Josh McCrae							15				960
NEW	26	Time Will Tell - Ian Gregory							20				660
23	27	Mr. Custer - Charlie Drake						30				16	530
28	28	McDonald's Cave - The Piltdown Men						28				24	450
NEW	29	Little Girl - Marty Wilde						26					400
17	30	Let's Think About Living - Bob Luman										21	300
		The Stranger - The Shadows						22
		G. I. Blues - (LP) - Elvis Presley						25					480
		Kicking Up The Leaves - Mark Wynter										25	180
		Even More Party Pops - Russ Conway						29					160
		Please Help Me I'm Falling - Hank Locklin										28	90
		Sorry Robbie - Bert Weedon										29	60
		Apache - The Shadows										30	30
		* This week the split sides would have affected NME's
		averaged chart position so an average was taken
		from the other 4 charts giving an average of 5
		to The Shadows and awarded to NME to give a
		more representative chart position for both sides
		together.

[brian05]

NEW 22 Georgia On My Mind - Ray Charles

Hope President Trump has heard of this song.

[Splodj]

'Georgia On My Mind' is a candidate for the song that inspired 'Yesterday' ...
https://www.aaronkrerowicz.com/beatl...tles-yesterday

'Little Donkey' was Nina and Frederi(c)k's biggest hit and epitomised their gentle virtuous image. So in 1994 I was somewhat surprised to hear of Frederik's death in the Philippines from a drug smuggling related shooting.

[MrTibbs]

Wow I never knew that Splodj. Interesting fact. Yeah Brian Georgia is most certainly on his mind

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

There are 12 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 17th 1960.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 17th 1960								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	1	9900
2	2	Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters					3	2	2	2	5	2	9420
3	3	I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard					2	3	3	3	2	4	9260
4	4	Strawberry Fair / A Boy Without A Girl - Anthony Newley					4	4	4	5	3	3	8880
5	5	Little Donkey - Nina and Frederick					5	5	5	4	4	9	8620
7	6	Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren					6	6	7	6	7	6	8140
8	7	Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes					7=	7	8	8	9	5	7710
14	8	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson					9	8	6	10	8	8	7490
6	9	Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows					7=	9	11	9	6	7	7350
11	10	Lonely Pup - Adam Faith					10	10	9	7	10	10	7320
12	11	Gurney Slade - Max Harris					11	11	10	11	11	13	6600
9	12	My Heart Has A Mind Of It's Own - Connie Francis					12	12	13	13	14	11	6030
13	13	Dreamin' - Johnny Burnette					13	16	14	12	13	20	5540
20	14	Perfidia - The Ventures					19=	13	12	18	16	16	5210
15	15	Ol' MacDonald - Frank Sinatra					18	20	15	20	15	14	4360
17	16	Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison					15	14		15	19	12	4290
10	17	As Long As He Needs Me - Shirley Bassey					14	19		14	12	18	4170
16	18	My Love For You - Johnny Mathis					16	15	20	16		15	4070
18	19	Lively - Lonnie Donegan					17	17	18	17		19	3800
NEW	20	Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates					19=	24		19	17	23	2820
22	21	Georgia On My Mind - Ray Charles					19=	18			18	24	1900
23	22	Just As Much As Ever - Nat King Cole						28			20	21	1090
25	23	Wild Side Of Life - Josh McCrae							16				900
21	24	Milord - Edith Piaf						22				26	870
26	25	Time Will Tell - Ian Gregory							17				840
NEW	26	You Talk Too Much - Johnny Carson							18				780
RE	27	Even More Party Pops - Russ Conway						23				29	700
27	28	Mr. Custer - Charlie Drake						27				22	590
NEW	29	Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk						24					560
29	30	Little Girl - Marty Wilde						24					560
		The Stranger - The Shadows						20
		G. I. Blues (LP) - Elvis Presley						30					80
		Only The Lonely - Roy Orbison										17	420
		Kommotion - Duane Eddy						29				25	340
		Kicking Up The Leaves - Mark Wynter										27	120
		McDonald's Cave - The Piltdown Men										28	90
		Virgin Mary - Lonnie Donegan										30	30

[MrTibbs]

Hi Guys,

I need your thoughts on something and as many of you as possible replying would be helpful.

I am completely satisfied with every aspect of how the Ultimate Chart is compiled. As I have often said I believe the methodology I use is the best possible to ensure a fair and consistent chart that best represents the times based on the charts of that era.

However one thing in this methodology continues to niggle at me and that is deciding on the most important record on each chart the #1. As you know at present where the charts are divided on the #1 record I currently decide this by which record tops most charts over the points total. This has happened 4 times in the charts I have posted thus far. Once in 1964 with The Beatles, once in 1965 again with The Beatles, once in 1967 with Procol Harum and once in 1968 with Hugo Montenegro. It will happen 3 more times in the 1960 and 1961 charts I am yet to post.

So to help me decide on which is the most relevant, give me your opinions, in such cases should #1 be decided on the same points basis used for all other records irregardless of the number of charts it tops OR should it be whichever tops most charts that week as I am using at present.

Help me out here.

Brian

[Robbie]

I prefer the chart to be strictly points based so would go for your first option of #1 to be decided on the same points basis used for all other records irregardless of the number of charts it tops.

[Metalweb]

I prefer the chart to be strictly points based so would go for your first option of #1 to be decided on the same points basis used for all other records irregardless of the number of charts it tops.

Agreed!

[brian05]

".. OR should it be whichever tops most charts that week as I am using at present."

Stick to present method.

[Splodj]

How about going by points except when only one chart does not have a record at number one that all the other ones do?

In other words, only overriding the points when one maverick chart (*cough* Record Retailer) is so out of kilter that it is preventing that record from being number one.

[kjell]

The question of method is related to whether the ruling principle should be to get the best Average of the existing charts or the statistically right number one. Before I learned how the charts were compiled I agreed with using the average of the existing charts of the period. After having read Alan’s article twice and in light of my one and a half year exam in statistics I now know that the main objective should be to get the right number one and that is done by using the points as the decider. In the long run that will also make it easier to change wind between otherwise ties.
Whatever decision you make Brian, I’ll keep on following this thread. Not only your average chart but also your disclosing the differences between the old charts by including all the main charts of the times make very interesting reading and widens our understanding of the old charts. This is the thread I follow most closely.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

The things to consider are, how many methods are there, and what are the pluses and minuses of each method?

Strictly going by the ultimate weighted average sounds fair, but Record Retailer is "so out of kilter".

Being at #1 on the most charts sounds fair too, but what are the + and - ?

How about a hierarchy 1-1-2-5-5 vs. a 1-1-3-4-4 ?

How about a "throw out the outlier position" for each record?

Or just a flat BBC average?

Or, come up with the 5 best methods, and see which record turns out better on the most of them? 3 out of 5, or 4 out of 5, etc...

Interesting, fascinating...

[Splodj]

Or just a flat BBC average?

The 'flat BBC average' was abandoned after RR askewness prevented 'Hand' entering the BBC chart at number one. Thereafter they adopted an odd-one-out rule for number ones which, I believe, served them well.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Just an extra thought, maybe related, maybe not: just let ties stand as ties. There is nothing wrong with a tie... Rock on...

[MrTibbs]

Each point you guys make above is valid. Every one. I also think each one of you is correct in your way of thinking lol.

Thankfully this situation is relatively rare just 7 occasions in 9 chart years. I think taking all your comments above on board that each occasion needs judged on its own merit rather than applying a one size fits all. This in effect means using the most appropriate criteria, from the valid solutions you all highlight above, to each individual occasion.

So for example 1964 and 65 are easy. 4 charts. NME, MM, and Disc all place The Beatles at #1 only RR is out of step. It's a no brainer, The Beatles are #1.

In 1967, July 15th, Procol are #1 on Disc and RR , Monkees on MM, Beatles on NME. So on this occasion it's a 3 way split for #1. Monkees though are top on points 18580, v, 18400 for Procol, and 17965 for Beatles so The Beatles are out of the running anyway lowest points and topping 1 chart. So it's between Procol and Monkees. It's topping 2 charts for Procol v most points for Monkees.
So on this occasion if I take and add the chart positions for each I get 3 2 1 1 for Procol =7 , 2 1 3 3 for Monkees = 9. So Procol has the closest profile and therefore #1.
The Beatles incidentally were 1 3 6 2 = 12 so well out of contention like I said.

So, finally, thus far for you, 1968, November 16th. Only 3 charts by now . Hugo is #1 on NME and RR, and Barry Ryan on MM but Barry has 15680 points to Hugo's 15550.
So Hugo positions are 1 3 1 = 5 to Barry's 2 1 3 = 6, so again Hugo is closer in profile so #1.

Do the above examples in keeping with your thoughts above seem individually robust and credible to settle this ?

If so I will apply this individual logic going forward. The above results also leave the existing # 1 records already posted intact so no changes needed.

[Splodj]

I think everything is fine as long as you explain your rationale at the bottom of each chart involved. The reader can then think either "Yup, fine with me" or "I would have preferred it another way" and mentally rearrange accordingly.

[Leo]

NOMINEE for the 3rd Annual UKMIX Hot100 AWARDS as

Voting will start once all categories are announced! Stay tuned!