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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Thanks for that info Robin. Yeah I did a random check on the years 56 to 58 and store numbers vary. I did see a 29 for August 56 as mentioned above, but in every other I looked at randomly the following numbers were given, 24, 21, 24, 20, 21, 22, 15, 15 over these years so no consistency it would seem. Up to 1958 the paper stated above the chart exactly how many were used. So it would seem the formula I am using is entirely credible as an average for this period.

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    For the period for 1956 MM would print the stores supplying data beneath there chart - I counted 29 on the 25 Aug 1956 chart. It is possible that this is a generic list and so could be incomplete or inaccurate. It could also be a true account for that weeks charts, but this list was dropped eventually. In 9 Jan 1960 this ran to 28 shops.

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  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Brian, it's the WorldRadioHistory.com site, previously known as AmericanRadioHistory.com. Here's the link to MM issues:

    https://worldradiohistory.com/Melody_Maker.htm

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
    But it would be very kool if someone were to go thru the MM charts late 50s to 1960 on the American site, and total up how many shops are listed each week !! At some point in 1960, MM quit supplying those exact numbers / dealer names, when they upped it to over 100 shops.
    Can I ask here which American site we are talking about ? . Obviously if this site can give a more accurate guide as to numbers of returns MM used in the fifties so much the better for my computations so if anyone can advise me on this it would be most helpful.

    As things stand, going forward I increase MM input incrementally, 20 stores at present, 25 from January 1957, 30 from January 1958, and finally 35 from January 1959. This then ties in with the sample of 38 used from January 1960. This is consistent with Alan Smith's figures used throughout the project.
    As referred to by Robin above MM made the conscious decision from July 30th 1960 to have the best chart service of any chart and increased their chart sample to over a hundred. This effectively provided a larger sample than any other individual paper from that date and remained so throughout the decade.

    Also referring again to Robin's comments above re the two 'position swaps' . These only occurred in the bottom end of the chart which as such is mainly reliant on the NME chart as RM and MM only compiled a Top 20. Therefore the Top 20 itself, which all three charts input to, remains the same even with Robin's additional experimental increase in MM store returns proving that it is indeed robust and the proportions do what they say on the tin.

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  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Just to reemphasize Brian's statement above:
    .
    That said the exact figure is relatively unimportant as it is the proportion used to differentiate between the paper samples that is the main factor to consider, so the figures I use are a good representation of that for the purpose of this exercise.

    Of course we would like to know the exact number of record shops sampled each week by each chart, but good ballpark / approximate / highly reasonable numbers will yield close to the same averaged ranking results. The big thing is the relative proportion of number of sampled shops, chart against chart. In the case of the above Aug 25 1956 chart, it's NME 65 vs MM 20 vs RM 60. NME and RM are way above MM, so MM's impact will be minimal.

    But just for the heck of it, I took Brian's chart above Aug 25 1956, and changed MM from 20 to 30 shops. And the results were the same except for 2 swaps: the records at 25 and 26 swapped, and the records at 29 and 30 swapped.

    But it would be very kool if someone were to go thru the MM charts late 50s to 1960 on the American site, and total up how many shops are listed each week !! At some point in 1960, MM quit supplying those exact numbers / dealer names, when they upped it to over 100 shops.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Graham advised, ''MM was not as low as your numbers. If you look at the papers on the American site they were getting at least 30 and probably more, but it did vary.''

    We have debated this so often but yet again let me quantify. Nobody, not me, not you Graham, not even Alan Smith can hand on heart state Alan's figures (the ones I use) were definitive. But Alan's figures as things stand are the best 'guide' we actually have and were at least based on his research with industry insiders so carry some weight.

    That said the exact figure is relatively unimportant as it is the proportion used to differentiate between the paper samples that is the main factor to consider, so the figures I use are a good representation of that for the purpose of this exercise.

    Remember too that all these charts used are only based on what the stores reported on and like we have debated on before these figures themselves will have an element of error contained within due to manipulation, errors, omissions, miscalculations and so on. At least by combining and averaging and factoring in approximate store return numbers do we get as good a balanced chart as is now possible.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart is only 'A' chart based on specific data to give a likely averaged outcome. It in no way can be described as 'THE' chart, no more than any other chart, NME, RM, MM, DISC, RR. It's just another chart of choice improving on the methodology employed by the BBC taking the same view that a combination of many charts together has to be better than any individual chart.

    I do present it as 'definitive' reflecting the era in as much as it is accurate by correcting all the obvious errors that the individual music paper charts made at the time, including the BBC one. The methodology is transparent for all to see which further allows you guys to also see any errors I make for correction along the way. So based on that yes ! The Ultimate Averaged Chart more robust than any other chart but not better, it's just another chart.

    I hope this clarifies the purpose and reasoning behind the project in order that we can all continue to enjoy it. It reflects the times imperfections and all.

    Brian



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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Wow ! That's what I call comprehensive Lonnie.

    I can actually understand how easy it was for ties to occur on a points based chart especially if the sample tally was low but for the BMRB to have a five way tie in a chart where copies sold was used rather than points should have been nigh impossible. 2 tying is possible, just, but 5. This again to my my mind exemplifies that at the outset the BMRB chart was using only a minimal sample of valid returns for compilation purposes as we have discussed many times. This is perhaps the strongest evidence yet.

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  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    MM was not as low as your numbers. If you look at the papers on the American site they were getting at least 30 and probably more, but it did vary.

  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    The 3-way tie (at MMs number 9) must be rare, if not unique.
    Interesting question! So I went digging....

    Lots of times we had 2 records tie for a position. So Ignored those.

    In fact, three records at a single position has happened 44 times on the UK Singles chart - most during the time whenNME compiled the chart, then 5 times in 1969, once in 1986 and three times in 1993 (In the 76-100 section of the chart - two happening in a single week!)
    Date Pos
    19/12/1952 6
    19/12/1952 10
    26/12/1952 6
    26/12/1952 10
    23/01/1953 12
    26/11/1954 14
    17/12/1954 20
    24/12/1954 20
    31/12/1954 20
    01/04/1955 15
    27/01/1956 20
    21/09/1956 6
    16/11/1956 15
    08/02/1957 21
    13/12/1957 22
    07/02/1958 26
    14/02/1958 7
    14/03/1958 30
    19/12/1958 25
    09/01/1959 14
    23/01/1959 18
    06/02/1959 3
    13/02/1959 22
    20/02/1959 23
    26/06/1959 28
    17/07/1959 28
    07/08/1959 15
    04/09/1959 19
    18/09/1959 28
    25/09/1959 18
    16/10/1959 28
    04/12/1959 30
    01/01/1960 19
    01/01/1960 28
    05/02/1960 17
    05/03/1969 46
    02/04/1969 35
    09/04/1969 38
    07/05/1969 39
    07/05/1969 43
    08/03/1986 54
    16/01/1993 82
    16/01/1993 96
    25/09/1993 72
    And now we come to other charts....

    NME continued to have 3 tied at a position through to 1970 (10 Jan 1970 the last occurrence). They also had 4 three times!
    30/06/1961 28
    25/05/1962 28
    21/06/1963 28
    Record Mirror had quite a few as well, but I need to re-verify me Record Mirror charts with the ones MrTibbs is posting above, as I know mine are for the Tony Jasper book (and thus full of errors) but they had 3 ties on 8 occasions, and once a 4 way tie - if my data is correct)

    The BBC Averaged chart had loads of 3 record ties, quite a few times when 4 where tied (16 jul 1966 at 6 had 4 records but that's the only one in the Top 10) and once they had 6 records - 15 Feb 1958 at number 25, but I assume that this was just unable to sort out positions as it was below the Top 20 they broadcast.

    Melody Maker also had 3 many times. 4 times in the Top 10 (two in 1957 and 19 Jun 1976 at 6) They also had 5 way ties twice. 1976 was the last time my data shows ties for Melody Maker (Note I do not have the 1980's data added yet).
    Date Pos Number
    19/01/1957 20 4
    26/01/1957 17 4
    06/04/1957 18 4
    27/04/1957 20 4
    01/06/1957 20 4
    02/11/1957 18 4
    04/01/1958 20 4
    15/02/1958 20 4
    14/03/1970 45 4
    31/10/1970 49 4
    19/05/1956 18 5
    22/02/1958 15 5
    Disc had 3 once on their first chart, Pop Weekly Singles had 3 4 times, one in the Top 10 on 7 Sep 1963.

    And, saving the best for last, the main UK chart, in 1969, had a five way tie once - 12 Feb 1969 in the first of the BMRB charts at 45.

    Over on the album chart ties where very rare, but did happen - mostly in 1969 when the BMRB where starting. Ignoring those (which included 4 records at 4 on 24 May 169) we had a 4 way tie at 56 on 23 Dec 1978 as the most, and also the last time we had a tie on the album chart of more than 2 records.

    In America ties where far more common up until the advent of the Hot 100 and a change of the way they compiled the chart. The chart with the most was the Top 100 from 1955-1958, which ranked sides of records. I know this thread is about the UK so I will only mention this briefly, but the biggest number of ties recorded was for this chart as below
    Date Pos Number
    28/01/1956 93 9
    16/06/1958 86 9
    01/07/1957 85 10
    07/04/1958 91 10
    09/06/1958 87 10
    However, all that pails with the most number of ties at a single position. 12. 12 records tied at a single position on the Juke Box chart Billboard printed on 2 Sep 1950, all at position 19.

    So 3 is not that rare at all.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    The 3-way tie (at MMs number 9) must be rare, if not unique.
    Probably MM's really low shop sample had a lot to do with this. BUT, strangely, NME consistently had ties in the upper end of the chart too (as well as lower positions) and often in the top ten yet using a much bigger sample. By comparison RM just below NME in sample size had far far fewer ties in the top ten but like MM often had ties in the lower chart positions.

    Even stranger as you already know these frequent ties high in the top ten in NME carried on well into the sixties but less frequent with all the others. It had to have something to do with NME's compilation method.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    The 3-way tie (at MMs number 9) must be rare, if not unique.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    There is an amazing consensus at the top end of the above chart. All three papers by and large agree totally on the top eight positions. The only difference being MM disagreeing on the #1 single but without a shadow of a doubt NME and RM had that correct.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 25th 1956

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 25th 1956 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 20 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day 1 2 1 4330
    2 2 Why Do Fools Fall In Love - The Teenagers 2 1 2 4225
    3 3 A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer 3 3 3 4060
    4 4 Walk Hand In Hand - Tony Martin 4 4 4 3915
    5 5 Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme 5 5 5 3770
    8 6 Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets 6 6 6 3625
    9 7 Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis Presley 7 7 7 3480
    6 8 I'll Be Home - Pat Boone 8 8 8 3335
    7 9 The Wayward Wind - Tex Ritter 9 14 9 3090
    15 10 Serenade - Slim Whitman 10 9 11 3005
    13 11 Walk Hand In Hand - Ronnie Carroll 13 12 10 2810
    10 12 The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets 12 15 13 2635
    21 13 I Almost Lost My Mind - Pat Boone 14 13 13 2545
    12 14 The Wayward Wind - Gogi Grant 15 9 16 2380
    17 15 I Want You I Need You I Love You - Elvis Presley 17 16 15 2170
    11 16 All Star Hit Parade - Various Artists 21 19 12 2030
    14 17 Who Are We - Ronnie Hilton 11 9 1740
    24 18 Be-Bop-A-Lula - Gene Vincent 16 20 1635
    19 19 Bluebottle Blues / I'm Walking Backwards For Christmas - The Goons 20 17 1555
    30 20 Long Tall Sally - Pat Boone 18 20 1065
    NEW 21 My Son John - David Whitfield 30 18 845
    27 22 I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino 19 780
    NEW 23 You Are My First Love - Ruby Murray 19 720
    NEW 24 Long Tall Sally - Little Richard 20 660
    23 25 The Faithful Hussar - Ted Heath 22 585
    26 26 Blue Suede Shoes - Elvis Presley 26 20 545
    18 27 Why Do Fools Fall In Love - Alma Cogan 23 520
    25 27 Left Bank - Winifred Atwell 23 520
    16 29 Experiments With Mice - Johnny Dankworth 25 390
    NEW 30 Born To Be With You - The Chordettes 17 280
    Treasure Of Love - Clyde McPhatter 27 260
    Moonglow And Theme From Picnic - Morris Stoloff 18 260
    22 Hot Diggity - Perry Como 20 220
    Lay Down Your Arms - Anne Shelton 28 195
    Sadie's Shawl - Frank Cordell 29 130
    20 Walk Hand In Hand - Jimmy Parkinson
    28 Hot Diggity / The Gal With The Yaller Shoes - Michael Holliday
    29 My September Love - David Whitfield

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  • Splodj
    replied
    I wonder if the NME placing of The Goons is a glitch, or if the other charts have reverted to tallying separate sides.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Bill Haley's bandwagon continues to steamroller ahead big time, as Saints re-enters the top ten Rocking Through The Rye smashes straight in at #8 as the 'Rock Era' starts to take hold.

    Despite this though the crooner challenge is far from over. Between now and the start of 1957 artists generally associated with hits from the early fifties who haven't made a chart impact for some time will suddenly re-emerge with not only big hits, but #1 hits. Who would have thought a few weeks earlier that Doris Day, Anne Shelton, Frankie Laine, Johnnie Ray and Guy Mitchell would swoop back at this time and conquer all before them. To further rub salt in the 'Rock' wound Both Ray and Mitchell would adapt and have further hits including #1 hits in 1957.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 18th 1956

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 18th 1956 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 20 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Whatever Will Be Will Be - Doris Day 1 2 1 4330
    2 2 Why Do Fools Fall In Love - The Teenagers 2 1 2 4225
    4 3 A Sweet Old Fashioned Girl - Teresa Brewer 3 3 3 4060
    3 4 Walk Hand In Hand - Tony Martin 4 4 5 3855
    5 5 Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme 5 5 4 3830
    6 6 I'll Be Home - Pat Boone 6 6 6 3625
    9 7 The Wayward Wind - Tex Ritter 8 9 8 3315
    NEW 8 Rocking Through The Rye - Bill Haley and His Comets 9 9 7 3310
    7 9 Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis Presley 7 7 13 3120
    11 10 The Saints Rock'n'Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets 10 11 9 3085
    8 11 All Star Hit Parade - Various Artists 11 8 9 3080
    13 12 The Wayward Wind - Gogi Grant 13 17 11 2650
    14 13 Walk Hand In Hand - Ronnie Carroll 15 13 12 2540
    10 14 Who Are We - Ronnie Hilton 14 12 16 2385
    22 15 Serenade - Slim Whitman 18 13 14 2225
    15 16 Experiments With Mice - Johnny Dankworth 16 15 1935
    23 17 I Want You I Need You I Love You - Elvis Presley 20 15 20 1695
    19 18 Why Do Fools Fall In Love - Alma Cogan 23 19 1240
    12 19 Bluebottle Blues / I'm Walking Backwards For Christmas - The Goons 12 1235
    RE 20 Walk Hand In Hand - Jimmy Parkinson 30 19 18 1085
    NEW 21 I Almost Lost My Mind - Pat Boone 17 910
    16 22 Hot Diggity - Perry Como 22 16 885
    17 23 The Faithful Hussar - Ted Heath 18 845
    RE 24 Be-Bop-A-Lula - Gene Vincent 17 840
    21 25 Left Bank - Winifred Atwell 20 715
    24 26 Blue Suede Shoes - Elvis Presley 27 17 540
    NEW 27 I'm In Love Again - Fats Domino 24 455
    18 28 Hot Diggity / Gal With The Yaller Shoes - Michael Holliday 25 390
    25 29 My September Love - David Whitfield 26 325
    RE 30 Long Tall Sally - Pat Boone 19 240
    30 Bad Penny Blues - Humphrey Lyttleton 28 195
    20 Lost John - Lonnie Donegan 29 130
    26 Moonglow And Theme From Picnic - Morris Stoloff
    27 Only You - The Hilltoppers
    28 Carousel Waltz - Ray Martin
    29 Too Young To Go Steady - Nat King Cole

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    And Elvis had a re-entry. (in RM only)

    RE 24 Blue Suede Shoes - Elvis Presley

    Maybe a TV appearance or more likely was played on some radio programme (2 way Family Favourites?).

    I was going to highlight his movie GI Blues but that didn't happen until 1960 (maybe a very early preview???).

    I don't remember any bargain bin until the 1960s.
    There is a site called TV Pop Diaries. I will post the link below and you can check who was on TV for all the decades. I checked both the returning records in question and there was no mention of either act on TV for the few weeks up to the date of the chart.

    On the subject of record bargin bins. It wasn't common practice to browse for records at all in racks. Especially as in the 1950's, the 78 was still strong. Also many record shops were called "record dealers" because like car dealers they could only stock certain makes, or in this case labels. So you could only buy an HMV record from an HMV shop or at least one that was allowed the dealership title.
    HMV dealers were also not allowed to sell Pye Records, for example. So if you didn't get the right amount of dealers right, when compiling the chart, you could finish up with some labels dominating the chart. I don't know if they took that into account, but if you had more "EMI" labels in you chart, it could be due to the fact there were more EMI dealers in the survey. Bad luck if you were on the other labels!

    http://www.tvpopdiaries.co.uk/index.html

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by membranemusic View Post
    Mr Tibbs, please keep up the good work! It's stunning.
    No question about it membrane, never fear, this bandwagon will roll on till completion. I'm enjoying this voyage of discovery along with you guys.

    Leave a comment:


  • membranemusic
    replied
    Mr Tibbs, please keep up the good work! It's stunning.

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  • brian05
    replied
    And Elvis had a re-entry. (in RM only)

    RE 24 Blue Suede Shoes - Elvis Presley

    Maybe a TV appearance or more likely was played on some radio programme (2 way Family Favourites?).

    I was going to highlight his movie GI Blues but that didn't happen until 1960 (maybe a very early preview???).

    I don't remember any bargain bin until the 1960s.

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    EMI was pretty successful in 1963 with Parlophone and Columbia.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    An interesting event, little commented upon and maybe even unnoticed, was happening from 11th August 1956 which had never been achieved before and not even since to date. It was the total domination of a record label to hold the #1 position for a lengthy period consecutively with different artists.
    From 11th August the Philips label will have an uninterrupted strangle hold at the top until February 16th 1957.

    Doris Day will be followed by Anne Shelton, Frankie Laine, Johnnie Ray, Guy Mitchell and Frankie Vaughan all on Philips, only Tab Hunter will end this total domination by a label on 23rd February with Young Love on London.

    A 28 week run for Philips at #1. That's quite a remarkable achievement by any standard.

    To pre-empt the inevitable point being raised that Tommy Steele on Decca went to #1 in January 1957 on both NME and RM this was on different weeks and never on MM so would not have been top using any averaging process.

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    It would be a sound business decision if they had the records and could not return them.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    On that I honestly don't know about the fifties or early sixties Robbie as it was a decade and a bit later before I was regularly buying records but I can remember my local record shops selling off overstocked chart or non charting singles in boxes on the counter cheaply by the late sixties. I picked up quite a few extra hits that way.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    The bottom end of the NME chart often had re-entries including past hits that left the chart weeks before. All it would take I think is for a couple of dealer returns to place it high for some reason and this would be reflected. RM and MM often had similar at the bottom end of their chart too.
    Did shops have "bargain bins" in those days, where records dropping off the charts were sold off cheap or was that something that came years later? If records were sold off cheap and picked up a few sales, the low level of dealer returns could mean that it would only take a small handful of dealers doing this to lead to a record recharting.

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