The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Looks good to me Brian. And if you had also done the hierarchy method, and the 'throw out the outlier' method, you would have gotten the same results that you got above in each case. So that's even more confirmation.

[MrTibbs]

Thanks to all you guys above for your replies. I can now use all your suggestions as the need arises.

[MrTibbs]

Wow Wow Wow.

See above guys, this thread has been nominated in the Outstanding General Charts Thread in the UK MIX 2020 awards. I'm amazed and ecstatic at its recognition and inclusion.
I've always said though this is our thread not my thread, you guys keep it alive through your interest, input, comments and constant visits.

Please watch out for the start of voting and see how we do

[MrTibbs]

Here's what the nomination says.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined ( MrTibbs )

Another brand new entry in this category, its also MrTibbs frst nomination! If you are a chart lover and Retro fan, god this thread is EVERYTHING! With barely more than 7 months it already has almost 1400 replies and +36000 views! It definetly should have more!!!

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

There are again12 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 24th 1960.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 24th 1960								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley					1	1		1	2	1	8050
3	2	I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard					2	3		2	1	2	7800
2	3	Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters					3	2		3	5	3	7540
5	4	Little Donkey - Nina and Frederick					4=	7		4	4	6	6990
10	5	Lonely Pup - Adam Faith					6	5		5	7	4	6950
4	6	Strawberry Fair / A Boy Without A Girl - Anthony Newley					4=	6		6	3	7	6870
8	7	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson					7	4		7	8	5	6730
6	8	Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren					8	8		8	6	8	6310
9	9	Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows*					11	11		10	11	9	5650
7	10	Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes					9	9		12	9	10	5580
11	11	Gurney Slade - Max Harris					10	12		9	10	12	5560
14	12	Perfidia - The Ventures					12	10		14	12	15	4980
16	13	Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison					16=	20		11	19	11	4280
13	14	Dreamin' - Johnny Burnette					13	18		13	14	23	4110
20	15	Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates					14=	17		19	13	20	3670
17	16	As Long As He Needs Me - Shirley Bassey					16=	14		15		14	3630
19	17	Lively - Lonnie Donegan					19=	20		17	20	17	3390
18	18	My Love For You - Johnny Mathis					18	15		18		16	3160
12	19	My Heart Has A Mind Of It's Own - Connie Francis					14=	13			15	13	2780
15	20	Ol' MacDonald - Frank Sinatra						22		16		19	2730
24	21	Milord - Edith Piaf						27		20		24	1740
30	22	Little Girl - Marty Wilde					19=	19			17		1660
27	23	Even More Party Pops - Russ Conway						16					1200
21	24	Georgia On My Mind - Ray Charles									16	28	840
NEW	25	Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro						25				22	750
NEW	26	Black Stockings - The John Barry Seven									18		650
NEW	27	Like Strangers - The Everly Brothers						24				30	590
28	28	Mr. Custer - Charlie Drake										18	390
29	29	Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk						27					320
22	30	Just As Much As Ever - Nat King Cole										21	300
		The Stranger - The Shadows						22
		D' In Love - Cliff Richard						26
		G. I. Blues (LP) - Elvis Presley						29					160
		Only The Lonely - Roy Orbison										25	180
		Kommotion - Duane Eddy										26	150
		Sway - Bobby Rydell						30				29	140
		Virgin Mary - Lonnie Donegan										27	120
		Till - Tony Bennett						30					80
		Ten Swingin' Bottles- Pete Chester and The Consulates						30					80
		RM did not compile a chart for this week.
													0
		* This week the split sides would have affected NME's											0
		averaged chart position so an average was taken											0
		from the other 3 charts giving an average of 10											0
		to The Shadows and awarded to NME to give a											0
		more representative chart position for both sides											0
		together.											0
													0

[kjell]

This is really the chart of charts that eventually will cover every week from the UK charts was broadened from two to three competing charts March 56 all the way till they finally based the charts on actual sales in 69. There’s no need to be surprised at the nomination, only that it came so quickly, which may be caused by the speed of Brian’s work. Congratulations!

[MrTibbs]

Thanks kjell for that. Your continuing support along with same from the other guys keeps me morivated ind interested in this. I never knew there were awards thats why i was taken aback.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Kudos and Congratulations, Brian! No question it's the best thread of the year. (I didn't even know UKMix gave out awards, ha.)
Rock on...

[MrTibbs]

You were just as important in this project Robin you devised the spreadsheets that are used and with the other guys provided support and advice throughout keeping it accurate and relevant.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

There are 9 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 31st 1960.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 31st 1960								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	2	2	2	9710
2	2	I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard					2	4	2	1	1	1	9600
3	3	Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters					3	2	3	3	5	5	9160
7	4	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson					4=	3	4	6	3	6	8760
5	5	Lonely Pup - Adam Faith					4=	5	7	4	4	7	8560
4	6	Little Donkey - Nina and Frederick					6	5	6	5	7	4	8450
6	7	Strawberry Fair / A Boy Without A Girl - Anthony Newley					7	7	5	8	6	3	8100
8	8	Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren					8	8	8	7	8	13	7550
12	9	Perfidia - The Ventures					9	12	9	9	9	12	6930
11	10	Gurney Slade - Max Harris					10	11	10	10	10	11	6820
9	11	Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows					11	9	12	11	13	9	6660
10	12	Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes					12	10	11	13	11	8	6550
15	13	Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates					13	14		12	12	14	4910
18	14	My Love For You - Johnny Mathis					15	19	20	15	19	21	4280
17	15	Lively - Lonnie Donegan					18=	18	18	16		15	3950
16	16	As Long As He Needs Me - Shirley Bassey					14	13		17		17	3400
13	17	Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison					16=	19		14		19	3190
23	18	Even More Party Pops - Russ Conway					16=	23		18	15	27	2990
22	19	Little Girl - Marty Wilde					18=	24		20	14	26	2770
25	20	Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro						16	17			16	2490
NEW	21	Strawberry Blonde - Frank D'Rone					20	15	13				2360
14	22	Dreamin' - Johnny Burnette						30		19	20	18	2340
19	23	My Heart Has A Mind Of Its Own - Connie Francis						21			18	10	2080
27	24	Like Strangers - The Everly Brothers						25			16	24	1440
NEW	25	Sway - Bobby Rydell						17				28	1210
NEW	26	Ten Swingin' Bottles - Pete Chester and The Chesternuts							14				1020
NEW	27	Pepe - Russ Conway							15				960
NEW	28	It's You That I Love - Marion Ryan						28	20				900
RE	29	Wild Side Of Life - Josh McCrae							16				900
29	30	Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk						22					720
		G. I. Blues (LP) - Elvis Presley						27					320
		Time Will Tell - Ian Gregory							19				720
		Black Stockings - The John Barry Seven									17		700
		Milord - Edith Piaf						26				25	580
		Ol' MacDonald - Frank Sinatra										20	330
		Just As Much As Ever - Nat King Cole										22	270
		Till - Tony Bennett						28					240
		Mr. Custer - Charlie Drake										23	240
		Georgia On My Mind - Ray Charles										29	60
		Kicking Up The Leaves - Mark Wynter										30	30

[MrTibbs]

Elvis is #1 as he has both most overall points and also has the closest profile to #1, 8 to Cliff's 9.

[MrTibbs]

I didn't have time yesterday but just to specify how # 1 will be calculated definitively going forward based on ALL your helpful advice to get a 'best' result if one record holds most points but another holds most places at #1 across the charts.

This doesn't affect any charts posted thus far as all these already meet this criteria.

1) Where there are 4 or 5 charts used and a record is #1 in ALL charts except one then the outlier will be discounted. Where 3 or less charts are used this rule won't apply as this smaller sample does not offer the same broad result.

2) In all other cases 3 criteria will apply and the record meeting 2 out of the 3 criteria will be deemed to be the most competent to be awarded the #1 position.


- Holding the #1 position on most charts

- Holding most overall points

- Holding the closest profile to #1 by adding the music paper chart positions together for example :

1 1 2 2 3 = 9
4 3 1 1 1 = 10

So 9 points holds the closest profile. Where this ties too, best positions apply, eg, 1,1,3 will beat 1,2,2.

This comprehensive methodology takes all your suggestions on board and uses them all to give a definitive #1.

Remember though that this will only need to be applied in very few cases. Of all the charts thus compiled and posted there has only been 5 charts and 2 more yet to be posted to July 1961 where this computation has been employed.

Thanks again for helping me with this and please when the time comes vote vote vote for our chart in the awards

[Splodj]

On the subject of entering at Number One pre-69 ...

If you accept that ‘Dustman’ didn’t, it was achieved by only Elvis and the Beatles.

‘It’s Now Or Never’ was Presley’s biggest selling UK single, but even so it was quite an accomplishment to enter at number one in all 5 charts.

His second biggest selling single ‘Jailhouse Rock’ had entered at number one in 2 of 3 charts.

It will be interesting to see what happens shortly on the Ultimate with ‘Are You Lonesome Tonight’. As his third biggest selling single this really is the only other possibility for him to have a record come straight in at the top. It didn’t in the BBC chart, whereas the other two did.

Then there are the 6 Beatles records from ‘Hand’ to ‘Help’ that achieved it, if you ignore RR. It is another tragedy of the 'Official' chart that by using RR it is claiming that none of these records entered at number one.

So this may be the full list, with the exceptional chart position (if any) shown:

Jailhouse Rock – MM 3
It’s Now Or Never
I Want To Hold Your Hand - RR 10
Can't Buy Me Love - RR 8
A Hard Day’s Night – RR 3
I Feel Fine - RR 6
Ticket To Ride - RR 11
Help – RR 5

[MrTibbs]

I am happy to confirm for you here and now that both Elvis records and the six Beatles records above ( although you already know some of these did from the charts already posted) will debut at #1 on The Ultimate chart.
Are You Lonesome will fall short though making a debut at at 3.

[Splodj]

So the Ultimate and BBC charts are in agreement on this matter, except of course for ‘Hand’. And the BBC implicitly admitted making a mistake with ‘Hand’ when they introduced a system to avoid the same thing (maverick prevents number one) happening again.

[membranemusic]

Hello
Re the tie break for no. 1 records, I have a bold suggestion.
From October 1959 right through to the 1970s the U.S. Cashbox magazine compiled a weekly UK chart. Because this was not published in the UK at all, it would not have been eligible for the BBC chart (or the Re-imagined chart). Furthermore it was always a week late once published in the USA.
However if Cashbox compiled their UK chart with all the rigour that it was proud to display on compiling the USA domestic charts, it must have a retrospective value.
If, for example, you need a tie break for a UK chart dated 15 Sep 1960, refer to the Cashbox UK chart dated 22 Sep 1960 (which usually matched the 15/9/60 UK chart week).
Just an idea.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

No one throw stones, but just for the sake of a fun math discussion, how would Elvis and Cliff compare for Dec 31st 1960 when doing a hierarchy, a median, and a 'throw out an outlier'?

Hierarchy: Cliff 1-1-1-2-4 beats Elvis 1-1-2-2-2.

Median: Cliff 1 beats Elvis 2.

Throw out an outlier (furthest from the average): Cliff average is 1.8, outlier is 4. Elvis average is 1.6, outlier is 1. So Cliff 1-1-1-2 beats Elvis 1-2-2-2.

Alternate 'throw out an outlier' (furthest from the median): Cliff median is 1, outlier is 4. Elvis median is 2, outlier is 1. So Cliff 1-1-1-2 beats Elvis 1-2-2-2.

So in the above 4 methods, Cliff scores over Elvis 4-0. Considering all 7 methods, Cliff scores over Elvis 5-2.

Don't shoot the piano player !!

[MrTibbs]

membranemusic have you got any information on how Cashbox compiled their UK Top Twenty for it's magazine ?

[kingofskiffle]

membranemusic have you got any information on how Cashbox compiled their UK Top Twenty for it's magazine ?

Yes I'd be interested to hear about that as well. I see the charts and we all have access to those (There is a Top 10 EP and Albums as well) and was unsure how it was compiled. And as a result what value it had./. (I.e. more or less than other charts).

[Splodj]

It has been claimed that Cashbox surveyed about 20 stores. I am a bit suspicious of this, as it seems a lot of trouble to go to for a tiny entry in their paper.

Also, Cashbox switched to using RR in the late 60s even before BMRB arrived. I found this out when I looked to see what their chart said for the infamous 3-way split.

If you want to use a third party arbiter I would have thought Music Echo and/or Top Pops would be better.

[MrTibbs]

I really don't think we need to add another source into the mix. I believe your suggestions offered on this topic condensed into the criteria I outlined above provide a robust solution that's both fair and credible.

Splodj actually jolted my memory as I remember Dave Taylor mentioning to me way back that Cashbox used only a small sample to compile a chart for their magazine. It's also true that it doesn't have much prominence in the paper indicating it was maybe just a space filler in the International section.

[Splodj]

Indeed. Billboard went through a period in the 60s with no UK chart at all in their 'Hits Of The World' section. We were a lot more interested in the USA chart than they were in the UK one.

[MrTibbs]

Before I discovered RM carried the Billboard Top 50 of The Hot 100 I used to ask the person behind the counter in one of my local record shops to see the Record Retailer every week and look at the American Billboard chart inside the issue.

When I discovered RM carried the chart I started buying RM late 1969, Fifth Dimension were #1 in the first issue I bought with Wedding Bell Blues.

Ah ! Memories Memories

[Splodj]

Had you been living in New York this is what you would have been listening to on WABC ...
https://musicradio77.com/Surveys/196...eynov2569.html

The records above the dotted line (Top 14) were on high rotation and those below (Nos 15-20 and risers below) on low rotation.

On this website it is interesting to see their charts back to 1960 and how they formed the basis of the A-lists and B-lists on what was arguably the leading Top 40 station.

[braindeadpj]

Since the NME position is the 'odd one out' for Cliff and you have previously modified the NME position by taking the average of the other positions when two sides of a record both charted, I thought it'd be interesting to see how this affected the positions. The average (excluding NME) for Elvis is 1.75, while Cliff is 1.25. Replacing the NME values with this gives Elvis 9650 and Cliff 9820.

Also, the previous week Cliff's record showed 2 positions on the NME chart, but doesn't this week. It is possible that Cliff appears only at 4 instead of higher because the record is split, though you could argue that since the other side didn't chart this week perhaps it didn't influence it enough to make a difference....

Of course MrTibbs you specify the criteria for no.1 in these situations and you make it clear each time how the decision was reached and so I agree with your decision, despite what I've written above.