The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[braindeadpj]

Since the NME position is the 'odd one out' for Cliff and you have previously modified the NME position by taking the average of the other positions when two sides of a record both charted, I thought it'd be interesting to see how this affected the positions. The average (excluding NME) for Elvis is 1.75, while Cliff is 1.25. Replacing the NME values with this gives Elvis 9650 and Cliff 9820.

Also, the previous week Cliff's record showed 2 positions on the NME chart, but doesn't this week. It is possible that Cliff appears only at 4 instead of higher because the record is split, though you could argue that since the other side didn't chart this week perhaps it didn't influence it enough to make a difference....

Of course MrTibbs you specify the criteria for no.1 in these situations and you make it clear each time how the decision was reached and so I agree with your decision, despite what I've written above.

[Splodj]

you could argue that since the other side didn't chart this week perhaps it didn't influence it enough to make a difference.....

This is indeed what I would argue.

I agree that for the previous week this means that the average of the other charts should have been taken for Cliff then, when both sides did chart on NME, but it would only increase Cliff's score and not change his position.

[braindeadpj]

Josh McCrae Wild Side Of Love is a re-entry and not a new entry in the 31st December chart. It has only been charting on the RM chart the last 3 weeks and this there was no RM chart last week it fell off the chart.

[MrTibbs]

This is indeed what I would argue.

I agree that for the previous week this means that the average of the other charts should have been taken for Cliff then, when both sides did chart on NME, but it would only increase Cliff's score and not change his position.

Yeah Splodj, I actually calculate the average of the other charts anyway if both sides of a record enter the Top 30. If it just increases the score without altering the position then it is ignored like you say.

[MrTibbs]

Yeah brain we could make a good case for many ways to compile the chart. Its a case of u pays your money and make ur choice. I'm using what I think is a reliable, robust, and credible method but of course there are always others. Mine is just one example.

[MrTibbs]

Had you been living in New York this is what you would have been listening to on WABC ...
https://musicradio77.com/Surveys/196...eynov2569.html

The records above the dotted line (Top 14) were on high rotation and those below (Nos 15-20 and risers below) on low rotation.

On this website it is interesting to see their charts back to 1960 and how they formed the basis of the A-lists and B-lists on what was arguably the leading Top 40 station.

That is a great site and on that chart listed there are five future #1 records, J5, Supremes, Peter Paul and Mary, Beatles, and Steam, Na Na Na Na.......

[MrTibbs]

Josh McCrae Wild Side Of Love is a re-entry and not a new entry in the 31st December chart. It has only been charting on the RM chart the last 3 weeks and this there was no RM chart last week it fell off the chart.

Oops. I will amend that brain. Thanks.

[MrTibbs]

Josh McCrae amended from New to Re on 31st December

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

Here we go into 1961 !

There are 11 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 7th 1961.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 7th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
4	1	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson					1	1	1	1	2	3	9790
2	2	I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard					2	3	3	2	1	1	9510
3	3	Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters					3=	2	2	4	5	2	9200
1	4	It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley					3=	4	4	3	4	6	8960
5	5	Lonely Pup - Adam Faith					5	5	5	5	3	4	8710
7	6	Strawberry Fair / A Boy Without A Girl - Anthong Newley					6	9	7	9	6	5	7650
8	7	Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren					7	7	9	8	11	7	7490
9	8	Perfidia - The Ventures					8	8	6	11	8	9	7350
11	9	Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows					10	10	8	7	16	13	6990
12	10	Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes					9	6	14	10	14	10	6810
6	11	Little Donkey - Nina and Frederick					11=	21	11	6	7	8	6640
13	12	Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates					11=	12	9	12	10	11	6580
20	13	Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro					14	13	12	16	12	12	5750
21	14	Strawberry Blonde - Frank D'Rone					15	14	15	17	13		4760
10	15	Gurney Slade - Max Harris					13	18		13	9	16	4570
30	16	Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk					17=	16	20	15	20	30	4200
17	17	Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison					17=	11	18	19		19	4060
25	18	Sway - Bobby Rydell					16	16		14	15		3870
19	19	Little Girl - Marty Wilde					19	14	17		18	29	2910
16	20	As Long As He Needs Me - Shirley Bassey						20		20		21	2390
24	21	Like Strangers - The Everly Brothers					20	23	20		17	18	2390
22	22	Dreamin' - Johnny Burnette						27		18		23	1990
NEW	23	Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs						19	19			24	1890
29	24	Wild Side Of Life - Josh McCrae							13				1080
23	25	My Heart Has A Mind Of Its Own - Connie Francis						24				15	1040
15	26	Lively - Lonnie Donegan						25				14	990
26	27	Ten Swingin' Bottles - Pete Chester and The Chesternuts							16				900
NEW	28	Till - Tony Bennett						22					720
RE	29	Black Stockings - The John Barry Seven						30			19		680
14	30	My Love For You - Johnny Mathis						30				17	500
		G. I. Blues (LP) - Elvis Presley						28					240
		Chariot - Rhet Stoller						26					400
		Ol' MacDonald - Frank Sinatra										20	330
		Mr. Custer - Charlie Drake										22	270
		It's You That I Love - Marion Ryan						28					240
		Just As Much As Ever - Nat King Cole										25	180
		Only The Lonely - Roy Orbison										26	150
		Milord - Edith Piaf										27	120
		Even More Party Pops - Russ Conway										28	90

[MrTibbs]

Much as I truly like and admire the late great Matt Monro I personally think Steve Lawrence's version of Portrait Of My Love was the superior version.

[Robbie]

I notice that 'Wild Side Of Life' by Josh MacRae never charted on Record Retailer despite charting so high on Record Mirror. 45cat.com has it listed as a B side (to 'Dear John'). The first time I heard 'Wild Side Of Life' was back in 1976 when covered by Status Quo. They also released a single called 'Dear John' but it's not the same song as sung by Josh MacRae.

[MrTibbs]

Strangely on that subject Robbie Josh McCrae had a number of singles that charted in the RM Top 20 yet never charted on any other chart.

[Robbie]

Strangely on that subject Robbie Josh McCrae had a number of singles that charted in the RM Top 20 yet never charted on any other chart.

That is quite strange. Is there any reason you can think of why it may have happened? With up to 60 shops providing chart data to RM I wouldn't have expected just one or two shops where he may have been very popular to have affected their chart so much.

[braindeadpj]

That is quite strange. Is there any reason you can think of why it may have happened? With up to 60 shops providing chart data to RM I wouldn't have expected just one or two shops where he may have been very popular to have affected their chart so much.

Since Josh McCrae was a Scottish folk singer, perhaps RM had a few more Scottish stores than the others? Perhaps more stores in a specific part of Scotland - i.e. wherever he was from? Any additional evidence of a Scottish bias to the artists charting in RM? Or perhaps a genre bias - more folksy?

[Graham76man]

I checked out the Josh MacRae (you are spelling his name wrong Brian) record on 45 Cat and the A side is Dear John. It doesn't surprise me that Wild Side Of Life wasn't the A side, since it would have banned by the BEEB straight away! If you listen to the lyrics it was about a bloke who discovers his wife to be a lesbian who goes to "gay" clubs! The Honky Tonk thing! As male homosexuality was still illegal in 1961, any mention of sex (never mind gay sex) was a no go for the BBC. Of course many years later in 1976 nobody at the BBC was bothered by that sort of thing so the Quo could get away with it!
The single by the way has only five owns on 45 Cat, so Pye might have been on the fiddle or maybe it was the Scots shops that were selling it!

[Metalweb]

I checked out the Josh MacRae (you are spelling his name wrong Brian) record on 45 Cat and the A side is Dear John. It doesn't surprise me that Wild Side Of Life wasn't the A side, since it would have banned by the BEEB straight away! If you listen to the lyrics it was about a bloke who discovers his wife to be a lesbian who goes to "gay" clubs! The Honky Tonk thing! As male homosexuality was still illegal in 1961, any mention of sex (never mind gay sex) was a no go for the BBC. Of course many years later in 1976 nobody at the BBC was bothered by that sort of thing so the Quo could get away with it!
The single by the way has only five owns on 45 Cat, so Pye might have been on the fiddle or maybe it was the Scots shops that were selling it!

I don't think you can assume "gay" means "homosexual" in a song this old - the word was used to mean "hedonistic/immoral" before it acquired it's present meaning....
Still, the lyrics would have been controversial anyway as the term "Honky Tonk Angel" was a euphemism for a "loose woman" or prostitute - as Cliff Richard was horrified to discover when he recorded a single with that title in '75...

[MrTibbs]

I took the spelling from Record Mirror's spelling on their chart chart Graham so assumed it to be correct.
Yeah it is a mystery that Josh had a few hits solely in the RM Top 20, but every chart at one time or another had strange anomalies.

[MrTibbs]

On the subject of the BBC and their distaste of anything immoral I remember reading once that they banned Paper Doll by The Mills Brothers way back in 1943 because 'it encouraged soldiers to seek out other women when away from their wives'.

[Graham76man]

I took the spelling from Record Mirror's spelling on their chart chart Graham so assumed it to be correct.
Yeah it is a mystery that Josh had a few hits solely in the RM Top 20, but every chart at one time or another had strange anomalies.

The papers of the period where not good at spelling. There were no spell checkers, back then! I remember a 60's Record Mirror changing the name of an artist so that a female became male. I don't think they ever corrected it! Probably because the printers used to charge extra for alterations to the "copy". Once the type was set it was cheaper to use the same thing over and over again.

If you can try the name and title in 45 Cat. I now use that as the main source of all charts that I now produce. The chart makers often change the names of acts and titles of songs.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

There are a massive 15 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 14th 1961.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 14th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson					1	1	1	1	1	1	9900
2	2	I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard					2	2	2	2	2	2	9570
3	3	Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters					3	3	3	3	5	3	9140
4	4	It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley					5	4	4	4	6	4	8810
8	5	Perfidia - The Ventures					4	5	5	5	3	10	8530
12	6	Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates					7	7	6	6	7	11	7970
13	7	Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro					8	6	7	10	8	5	7680
5	8	Lonely Pup - Adam Faith					6	8	10	7	4	12	7660
7	9	Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren					9	9	11	9	12	6	7080
9	10	Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows					12	14	18	8	15	7	6190
10	11	Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes					10=	11	19	11	14	8	6060
18	12	Sway - Bobby Rydell					13	13	14	13	13	13	5880
16	13	Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk					14	12	9	15	17	14	5810
17	14	Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison					15	10	17	16	20	15	5200
6	15	Strawberry Fair / A Boy Without A Girl - Anthony Newley					10=	15		12	9	9	5130
21	16	Like Strangers - The Everly Brothers					20	18	12	18	19	16	4660
23	17	Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs					17=	16	13	14		25	4330
15	18	Gurney Slade - Max Harris					16	22		19	10	18	3480
14	19	Strawberry Blonde - Frank D'Rone					17=	20		20	11	24	3300
19	20	Little Girl - Marty Wilde					19	16	20		16	20	2940
11	21	Little Donkey - Nina and Frederick						23		17		17	2600
NEW	22	Pepe - Duane Eddy						18	8				2420
29	23	Black Stockings - The John Barry Seven						23	15			27	1720
NEW	24	North To Alaska - Johnny Horton						21			18		1450
NEW	25	Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men							15				960
NEW	26	Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis						25					480
NEW	27	Chariot - Rhet Stoller						26					400
NEW	28	You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette						26					400
25	29	My Heart Has A Mind Of Its Own - Connie Francis										19	360
NEW	30	Doll House - The King Brothers						28				28	330
		As Long As He Needs Me - Shirley Bassey										21	300
		Dreamin' - Johnny Burnette										22	270
		My Love For You - Johnny Mathis										23	240
		Bangers And Mash - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren						29					160
		Lively - Lonnie Donegan										26	150
		Pepe - Russ Conway						30					80
		Mr. Custer - Charlie Drake										29	60
		Ol' MacDonald - Frank Sinatra										30	30

[MrTibbs]

In comes Pepe from Duane Eddy. Cracking Toon ! An older cousin of mine had bought that and played it to death.

[Splodj]

I can personally vouch for Josh MacRae's "Messing About On The River" being played to death by the BBC at this time - or at least as far as their needle time restrictions would allow!

It was very noticeable that the BBC promoted UK acts as much as possible and limited exposure to USA ones.

This also influenced what version of a song got into the charts. Mention has already been made of 'Portrait Of My Love'. Even more striking, in my opinion, was what happened later in the year with 'I Love How You Love Me' when Jimmy Crawford made the charts and the superlative Paris Sisters were nowhere to be seen.

[MrTibbs]

I can personally vouch for Josh MacRae's "Messing About On The River" being played to death by the BBC at this time - or at least as far as their needle time restrictions would allow!

It was very noticeable that the BBC promoted UK acts as much as possible and limited exposure to USA ones.

This also influenced what version of a song got into the charts. Mention has already been made of 'Portrait Of My Love'. Even more striking, in my opinion, was what happened later in the year with 'I Love How You Love Me' when Jimmy Crawford made the charts and the superlative Paris Sisters were nowhere to be seen.

Spot on Splodj. Messing About On The River was much played on Childrens' Choice back then with Uncle Mac.
I love the superlative Paris Sisters version of I Love How You Love Me, criminally ignored, with attention focused on Jimmy Crawford's awful version.

[brian05]

Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs

Later covered by The Hollies. No. 8 in December 1963.

[MrTibbs]

I can't wait to get to The Ultimate charts for 1963. That was the year music exploded for me and the year The Ultimate chart will chart and place The Beatles singles correctly, ie, Please Please Me at #1 and I Want entering at #1.