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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Since the NME position is the 'odd one out' for Cliff and you have previously modified the NME position by taking the average of the other positions when two sides of a record both charted, I thought it'd be interesting to see how this affected the positions. The average (excluding NME) for Elvis is 1.75, while Cliff is 1.25. Replacing the NME values with this gives Elvis 9650 and Cliff 9820.

    Also, the previous week Cliff's record showed 2 positions on the NME chart, but doesn't this week. It is possible that Cliff appears only at 4 instead of higher because the record is split, though you could argue that since the other side didn't chart this week perhaps it didn't influence it enough to make a difference....

    Of course MrTibbs you specify the criteria for no.1 in these situations and you make it clear each time how the decision was reached and so I agree with your decision, despite what I've written above.
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Wed January 13, 2021, 21:47.

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    • Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
      you could argue that since the other side didn't chart this week perhaps it didn't influence it enough to make a difference.....
      This is indeed what I would argue.

      I agree that for the previous week this means that the average of the other charts should have been taken for Cliff then, when both sides did chart on NME, but it would only increase Cliff's score and not change his position.

      Comment


      • Josh McCrae Wild Side Of Love is a re-entry and not a new entry in the 31st December chart. It has only been charting on the RM chart the last 3 weeks and this there was no RM chart last week it fell off the chart.
        Last edited by braindeadpj; Wed January 13, 2021, 22:41.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Splodj View Post

          This is indeed what I would argue.

          I agree that for the previous week this means that the average of the other charts should have been taken for Cliff then, when both sides did chart on NME, but it would only increase Cliff's score and not change his position.
          Yeah Splodj, I actually calculate the average of the other charts anyway if both sides of a record enter the Top 30. If it just increases the score without altering the position then it is ignored like you say.
          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

          Comment


          • Yeah brain we could make a good case for many ways to compile the chart. Its a case of u pays your money and make ur choice. I'm using what I think is a reliable, robust, and credible method but of course there are always others. Mine is just one example.
            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
              Had you been living in New York this is what you would have been listening to on WABC ...
              https://musicradio77.com/Surveys/196...eynov2569.html

              The records above the dotted line (Top 14) were on high rotation and those below (Nos 15-20 and risers below) on low rotation.

              On this website it is interesting to see their charts back to 1960 and how they formed the basis of the A-lists and B-lists on what was arguably the leading Top 40 station.
              That is a great site and on that chart listed there are five future #1 records, J5, Supremes, Peter Paul and Mary, Beatles, and Steam, Na Na Na Na.......
              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
                Josh McCrae Wild Side Of Love is a re-entry and not a new entry in the 31st December chart. It has only been charting on the RM chart the last 3 weeks and this there was no RM chart last week it fell off the chart.
                Oops. I will amend that brain. Thanks.
                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                Comment


                • Josh McCrae amended from New to Re on 31st December
                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                  Comment


                  • Greetings Pop Pickers

                    Here we go into 1961 !​​

                    There are 11 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

                    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 7th 1961.

                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 7th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
                    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
                    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                    4 1 Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson 1 1 1 1 2 3 9790
                    2 2 I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard 2 3 3 2 1 1 9510
                    3 3 Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters 3= 2 2 4 5 2 9200
                    1 4 It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley 3= 4 4 3 4 6 8960
                    5 5 Lonely Pup - Adam Faith 5 5 5 5 3 4 8710
                    7 6 Strawberry Fair / A Boy Without A Girl - Anthong Newley 6 9 7 9 6 5 7650
                    8 7 Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren 7 7 9 8 11 7 7490
                    9 8 Perfidia - The Ventures 8 8 6 11 8 9 7350
                    11 9 Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows 10 10 8 7 16 13 6990
                    12 10 Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes 9 6 14 10 14 10 6810
                    6 11 Little Donkey - Nina and Frederick 11= 21 11 6 7 8 6640
                    13 12 Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates 11= 12 9 12 10 11 6580
                    20 13 Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro 14 13 12 16 12 12 5750
                    21 14 Strawberry Blonde - Frank D'Rone 15 14 15 17 13 4760
                    10 15 Gurney Slade - Max Harris 13 18 13 9 16 4570
                    30 16 Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk 17= 16 20 15 20 30 4200
                    17 17 Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison 17= 11 18 19 19 4060
                    25 18 Sway - Bobby Rydell 16 16 14 15 3870
                    19 19 Little Girl - Marty Wilde 19 14 17 18 29 2910
                    16 20 As Long As He Needs Me - Shirley Bassey 20 20 21 2390
                    24 21 Like Strangers - The Everly Brothers 20 23 20 17 18 2390
                    22 22 Dreamin' - Johnny Burnette 27 18 23 1990
                    NEW 23 Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs 19 19 24 1890
                    29 24 Wild Side Of Life - Josh McCrae 13 1080
                    23 25 My Heart Has A Mind Of Its Own - Connie Francis 24 15 1040
                    15 26 Lively - Lonnie Donegan 25 14 990
                    26 27 Ten Swingin' Bottles - Pete Chester and The Chesternuts 16 900
                    NEW 28 Till - Tony Bennett 22 720
                    RE 29 Black Stockings - The John Barry Seven 30 19 680
                    14 30 My Love For You - Johnny Mathis 30 17 500
                    G. I. Blues (LP) - Elvis Presley 28 240
                    Chariot - Rhet Stoller 26 400
                    Ol' MacDonald - Frank Sinatra 20 330
                    Mr. Custer - Charlie Drake 22 270
                    It's You That I Love - Marion Ryan 28 240
                    Just As Much As Ever - Nat King Cole 25 180
                    Only The Lonely - Roy Orbison 26 150
                    Milord - Edith Piaf 27 120
                    Even More Party Pops - Russ Conway 28 90
                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                    Comment


                    • Much as I truly like and admire the late great Matt Monro I personally think Steve Lawrence's version of Portrait Of My Love was the superior version.
                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                      Comment


                      • I notice that 'Wild Side Of Life' by Josh MacRae never charted on Record Retailer despite charting so high on Record Mirror. 45cat.com has it listed as a B side (to 'Dear John'). The first time I heard 'Wild Side Of Life' was back in 1976 when covered by Status Quo. They also released a single called 'Dear John' but it's not the same song as sung by Josh MacRae.

                        Comment


                        • Strangely on that subject Robbie Josh McCrae had a number of singles that charted in the RM Top 20 yet never charted on any other chart.
                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                            Strangely on that subject Robbie Josh McCrae had a number of singles that charted in the RM Top 20 yet never charted on any other chart.
                            That is quite strange. Is there any reason you can think of why it may have happened? With up to 60 shops providing chart data to RM I wouldn't have expected just one or two shops where he may have been very popular to have affected their chart so much.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
                              That is quite strange. Is there any reason you can think of why it may have happened? With up to 60 shops providing chart data to RM I wouldn't have expected just one or two shops where he may have been very popular to have affected their chart so much.
                              Since Josh McCrae was a Scottish folk singer, perhaps RM had a few more Scottish stores than the others? Perhaps more stores in a specific part of Scotland - i.e. wherever he was from? Any additional evidence of a Scottish bias to the artists charting in RM? Or perhaps a genre bias - more folksy?
                              Last edited by braindeadpj; Thu January 14, 2021, 21:45.

                              Comment


                              • I checked out the Josh MacRae (you are spelling his name wrong Brian) record on 45 Cat and the A side is Dear John. It doesn't surprise me that Wild Side Of Life wasn't the A side, since it would have banned by the BEEB straight away! If you listen to the lyrics it was about a bloke who discovers his wife to be a lesbian who goes to "gay" clubs! The Honky Tonk thing! As male homosexuality was still illegal in 1961, any mention of sex (never mind gay sex) was a no go for the BBC. Of course many years later in 1976 nobody at the BBC was bothered by that sort of thing so the Quo could get away with it!
                                The single by the way has only five owns on 45 Cat, so Pye might have been on the fiddle or maybe it was the Scots shops that were selling it!

                                Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
                                  I checked out the Josh MacRae (you are spelling his name wrong Brian) record on 45 Cat and the A side is Dear John. It doesn't surprise me that Wild Side Of Life wasn't the A side, since it would have banned by the BEEB straight away! If you listen to the lyrics it was about a bloke who discovers his wife to be a lesbian who goes to "gay" clubs! The Honky Tonk thing! As male homosexuality was still illegal in 1961, any mention of sex (never mind gay sex) was a no go for the BBC. Of course many years later in 1976 nobody at the BBC was bothered by that sort of thing so the Quo could get away with it!
                                  The single by the way has only five owns on 45 Cat, so Pye might have been on the fiddle or maybe it was the Scots shops that were selling it!
                                  I don't think you can assume "gay" means "homosexual" in a song this old - the word was used to mean "hedonistic/immoral" before it acquired it's present meaning....
                                  Still, the lyrics would have been controversial anyway as the term "Honky Tonk Angel" was a euphemism for a "loose woman" or prostitute - as Cliff Richard was horrified to discover when he recorded a single with that title in '75...

                                  Comment


                                  • I took the spelling from Record Mirror's spelling on their chart chart Graham so assumed it to be correct.
                                    Yeah it is a mystery that Josh had a few hits solely in the RM Top 20, but every chart at one time or another had strange anomalies.
                                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                    Comment


                                    • On the subject of the BBC and their distaste of anything immoral I remember reading once that they banned Paper Doll by The Mills Brothers way back in 1943 because 'it encouraged soldiers to seek out other women when away from their wives'.
                                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                                        I took the spelling from Record Mirror's spelling on their chart chart Graham so assumed it to be correct.
                                        Yeah it is a mystery that Josh had a few hits solely in the RM Top 20, but every chart at one time or another had strange anomalies.
                                        The papers of the period where not good at spelling. There were no spell checkers, back then! I remember a 60's Record Mirror changing the name of an artist so that a female became male. I don't think they ever corrected it! Probably because the printers used to charge extra for alterations to the "copy". Once the type was set it was cheaper to use the same thing over and over again.

                                        If you can try the name and title in 45 Cat. I now use that as the main source of all charts that I now produce. The chart makers often change the names of acts and titles of songs.
                                        Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                        Comment


                                        • Greetings Pop Pickers

                                          There are a massive 15 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

                                          Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 14th 1961.

                                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 14th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
                                          Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
                                          Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                          1 1 Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson 1 1 1 1 1 1 9900
                                          2 2 I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard 2 2 2 2 2 2 9570
                                          3 3 Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters 3 3 3 3 5 3 9140
                                          4 4 It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley 5 4 4 4 6 4 8810
                                          8 5 Perfidia - The Ventures 4 5 5 5 3 10 8530
                                          12 6 Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates 7 7 6 6 7 11 7970
                                          13 7 Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro 8 6 7 10 8 5 7680
                                          5 8 Lonely Pup - Adam Faith 6 8 10 7 4 12 7660
                                          7 9 Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren 9 9 11 9 12 6 7080
                                          9 10 Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows 12 14 18 8 15 7 6190
                                          10 11 Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes 10= 11 19 11 14 8 6060
                                          18 12 Sway - Bobby Rydell 13 13 14 13 13 13 5880
                                          16 13 Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk 14 12 9 15 17 14 5810
                                          17 14 Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison 15 10 17 16 20 15 5200
                                          6 15 Strawberry Fair / A Boy Without A Girl - Anthony Newley 10= 15 12 9 9 5130
                                          21 16 Like Strangers - The Everly Brothers 20 18 12 18 19 16 4660
                                          23 17 Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs 17= 16 13 14 25 4330
                                          15 18 Gurney Slade - Max Harris 16 22 19 10 18 3480
                                          14 19 Strawberry Blonde - Frank D'Rone 17= 20 20 11 24 3300
                                          19 20 Little Girl - Marty Wilde 19 16 20 16 20 2940
                                          11 21 Little Donkey - Nina and Frederick 23 17 17 2600
                                          NEW 22 Pepe - Duane Eddy 18 8 2420
                                          29 23 Black Stockings - The John Barry Seven 23 15 27 1720
                                          NEW 24 North To Alaska - Johnny Horton 21 18 1450
                                          NEW 25 Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men 15 960
                                          NEW 26 Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis 25 480
                                          NEW 27 Chariot - Rhet Stoller 26 400
                                          NEW 28 You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette 26 400
                                          25 29 My Heart Has A Mind Of Its Own - Connie Francis 19 360
                                          NEW 30 Doll House - The King Brothers 28 28 330
                                          As Long As He Needs Me - Shirley Bassey 21 300
                                          Dreamin' - Johnny Burnette 22 270
                                          My Love For You - Johnny Mathis 23 240
                                          Bangers And Mash - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren 29 160
                                          Lively - Lonnie Donegan 26 150
                                          Pepe - Russ Conway 30 80
                                          Mr. Custer - Charlie Drake 29 60
                                          Ol' MacDonald - Frank Sinatra 30 30
                                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                          Comment


                                          • In comes Pepe from Duane Eddy. Cracking Toon ! An older cousin of mine had bought that and played it to death.
                                            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                            Comment


                                            • I can personally vouch for Josh MacRae's "Messing About On The River" being played to death by the BBC at this time - or at least as far as their needle time restrictions would allow!

                                              It was very noticeable that the BBC promoted UK acts as much as possible and limited exposure to USA ones.

                                              This also influenced what version of a song got into the charts. Mention has already been made of 'Portrait Of My Love'. Even more striking, in my opinion, was what happened later in the year with 'I Love How You Love Me' when Jimmy Crawford made the charts and the superlative Paris Sisters were nowhere to be seen.
                                              Last edited by Splodj; Fri January 15, 2021, 15:05.

                                              Comment


                                              • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                                                I can personally vouch for Josh MacRae's "Messing About On The River" being played to death by the BBC at this time - or at least as far as their needle time restrictions would allow!

                                                It was very noticeable that the BBC promoted UK acts as much as possible and limited exposure to USA ones.

                                                This also influenced what version of a song got into the charts. Mention has already been made of 'Portrait Of My Love'. Even more striking, in my opinion, was what happened later in the year with 'I Love How You Love Me' when Jimmy Crawford made the charts and the superlative Paris Sisters were nowhere to be seen.
                                                Spot on Splodj. Messing About On The River was much played on Childrens' Choice back then with Uncle Mac.
                                                I love the superlative Paris Sisters version of I Love How You Love Me, criminally ignored, with attention focused on Jimmy Crawford's awful version.
                                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                                Comment


                                                • Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs
                                                  Later covered by The Hollies. No. 8 in December 1963.

                                                  Comment


                                                  • I can't wait to get to The Ultimate charts for 1963. That was the year music exploded for me and the year The Ultimate chart will chart and place The Beatles singles correctly, ie, Please Please Me at #1 and I Want entering at #1.
                                                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                                    Comment

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