The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[MrTibbs]

Yeah I'm with you there on Stranger and hoping too it makes #1. The more I deal with RR on compiling The Ultimate Chart the more obvious it is week on week that it is out of step with the other 4. 'Official' Ha Ha.

Technically though Splodj, Stranger was the second British record to reach #1 in the States, Vera Lynn did it in 1952 with Auf Wiedersehn Sweetheart and stayed there for 9 weeks.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

There are 11 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 21st 1961.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 21st 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson					1	1	1	1	2	1	9850
2	2	I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard					3	3	3	2	3	2	9380
NEW	3	Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley					2	2	2	3	1	19	9000
3	4	Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters					4	4	5	4	4	5	8820
7	5	Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro					5=	5	6	7	7	3	8260
6	6	Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates					5=	9	7	5	5	6	8110
22	7	Pepe - Duane Eddy					7	6	4	9	6	9	7950
5	8	Perfidia - The Ventures					8=	8	8	6	9	4	7880
4	9	It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley					8=	7	9	8	8	7	7640
13	10	Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk					10	10	10	10	12	18	6590
9	11	Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren					11	11	16	12	14	10	6070
17	12	Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs					13	13	12	15	13	15	5720
12	13	Sway - Bobby Rydell					12	12	18	16	11	17	5370
28	14	You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette					14	13	11	20	10	20	5230
16	15	Like Strangers - The Everly Brothers					15	16	17	11		11	4840
14	16	Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison					16	19		13	17	14	4150
10	17	Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows					17=	21		14	16	8	4110
8	18	Lonely Pup - Adam Faith					17=	18		18	15	28	3360
RE	19	Pepe - Russ Conway						24	14	19		23	3140
15	20	Strawberry Fair / A Boy Without A Girl - Anthony Newley						21		17		12	2910
20	21	Little Girl - Marty Wilde						20	20		18	16	2640
26	22	Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis					19=	17			19	24	1930
24	23	North To Alaska - Johnny Horton						27	15		20		1830
25	24	Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men						24	13				1640
30	25	Doll House - The King Brothers					19=	15				25	1460
NEW	26	Bangers And Mash - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren						21				22	1070
27	27	Chariot - Rhet Stoller						29	19			26	1030
11	28	Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes						27				13	860
NEW	29	Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee							20				660
NEW	30	Rubber Ball - Marty Wilde						26					400
		A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart										21	300
		Gurney Slade - Max Harris										27	120
		A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury						30				30	110
		Strawberry Blonde - Frank D'Rone										29	60

[MrTibbs]

Elvis storms the chart again crashing in at #3. He is placed in the Top 3 of all charts except, surprise, surprise, RR where it debuts away down at a lowly #19 .

Another embarrassment for 'The Official' chart !

[Splodj]

We never got to the bottom of why RR lagged the others. Is it possible they retained returns that arrived too late for that week's count and included them in the following week's count?

[MrTibbs]

Disc at this point were only using 60 returns the next smallest sample yet was still consistent by and large with the other 3 main charts.
RR was always behind the others by quite a way on new entries and this continued every year of the sixties even when their sample rose to 85. Also at the bottom end of their chart, even in the Top 30, older records seemed to hang around longer than in other charts and again this never improved throughout the sixties.
Also RR always seemed a more 'conservative' chart favouring ballads and 'softer' records.
So it couldn't only be down to a smaller sample because sometimes they were on the ball along with the others. Was it possibly the kind of shops they sampled, more 'middle of the road' types where older buyers tended to buy their records ?.
I can't see the slight difference in their compilation date making the impact we often saw, I mean 19 as opposed to 2, 2, 3, 1, for Lonesome

[braindeadpj]

I believe it was mentioned that records were typically released on a Friday so this would only include 2 days of sales - though of course that is true for all charts (We know NME and Disc included pre-orders). What if some of the stores provided data for Friday to Thursday (or even Monday to Friday), while others provided the requested Monday to Saturday. This would then have the affect of downplaying new entries? Perhaps some stores sent their data in early excluding the biggest day of sales (or at least knocking it to the next week?). If the compilers didn't realise (or didn't care) they would have accepted any data they received.
I forget, was the RR data mailed in like the RM data or phoned up for like the NME and other charts data at this time?

[MrTibbs]

3rd Annual UKMIX Hot100 AWARDS

Guys, I gather the voting is now open for the above awards. Please DO NOT vote for my nominated thread in this as I don't wish to participate anymore. I felt really good at a nomination but this was unfortunately short lived.

After looking through the voting categories I had latter hopes of being nominated in the Outstanding New Thread and Thread Of The Year categories as well but the criteria as explained to me when I failed to even be nominated worked against me even with over 37,000 views and over 1,400 replies since just June this year. It tends to favour many of the same contributors year after year nominated in many categories. I didn't stand a chance the way the criteria is calculated as a newcomer.

To say I'm disappointed and feeling marginalised is an understatement.


Brian

[braindeadpj]

Hello Brian,
just because the awards don't appreciate you, it doesn't mean we don't. Your threads have been one of those that I read every day and frequently revisit. We have both the charts and the lively discussion... what more can you ask for as a charts fan! I also can't wait to see how 1963 shapes up and whether Stranger On The Shore Gets its due place at No.1.
Keep on posting. I, and all the other posters, love your threads.

[braindeadpj]

AS far as I'm concerned Your threads are definitely the Outstanding New Thread and The Thread of the Year even if the poll nominees don't agree. - no disrepect to the other people who have their own threads, many of which I also read....

[Graham76man]

Hello Brian,
just because the awards don't appreciate you, it doesn't mean we don't. Your threads have been one of those that I read every day and frequently revisit. We have both the charts and the lively discussion... what more can you ask for as a charts fan!
Keep on posting. I, and all the other posters, love your threads.

I couldn't agree more.

When I first came on here they wanted to ban me for even daring to say there was something wrong with the way charts are compiled, except Lonnie, who just wanted to know where his fav act was in the Real Chart

Let's face voting is a farce and even if you had won, somebody would have demanded a recount and then stormed Wayne in his ivory tower at UKMIX.

[kingofskiffle]

I couldn't agree more.

When I first came on here they wanted to ban me for even daring to say there was something wrong with the way charts are compiled, except Lonnie, who just wanted to know where his fav act was in the Real Chart

Let's face voting is a farce and even if you had won, somebody would have demanded a recount and then stormed Wayne in his ivory tower at UKMIX.

Yeah. But only because nobody knows 1960’s sales properly and I figured if anybody did it would be you!

MrTibbs I think you should carry on and try and ignore the whole votes thing. You have likes on the thread and people here like what you do. (I’m not very good at trying to sort things out - odd given half the job of mod is sorting things out!)

[MrTibbs]

I had not intended to continue, such was my disappointment and disgust at the lack of recognition on this site. I discovered it's not what you do it's who you know that counts and I still feel way let down at being snubbed and there's no other way to put it.. I'm sorry to have to say it but if you take a look at the nominations it's like a 'mutual admiration society' friends back slapping other friends. No place for outsiders like me who isn't part of the 'society'. The site has lost its magic and interest for me.

Anyway for the sake of the guys included in my 21 'likes' I will continue albeit unenthusiastically. I sincerely thank you guys above who posted to support me just 3 out of 21 but I appreciate the gesture from those who did.

Here is the next chart.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 28th 1961.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 28th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
3	1	Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	1	9900
1	2	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson					1*	2	2	2	2	2	9570
2	3	I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard					3	5	4	3	3	6	8930
5	4	Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro					4	3	5	4	5	3	8910
7	5	Pepe - Duane Eddy					5	4	3	5	4	5	8830
6	6	Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates					6	7	8	6	6	4	8110
NEW	7	Sailor - Petula Clark					7	6	6	7	10	18	7580
4	8	Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters					8	9	12	8	7	8	7320
14	9	You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette					9=	11	9	13	8	10	6680
10	10	Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk					12=	8	13	11	15	9	6580
8	11	Perfidia - The Ventures					12=	11	15	9	14	7	6550
29	12	Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee					9=	13	7	10	9	24	6500
12	13	Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs					11	10	11	12	11	14	6480
9	14	It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley					14	15	14	14	12	11	5720
30	15	Rubber Ball - Marty Wilde					17	16	10	16		16	4560
15	16	Like Strangers - The Everly Brothers					15=	18		15	18	13	3990
13	17	Sway - Bobby Rydell					15=	21		17	13	12	3810
22	18	Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis					18	14	17		19	15	3280
11	19	Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren					19=	19		20	17	20	3200
19	20	Pepe - Russ Conway						26		18		25	2010
25	21	Doll House - The King Brothers					19=	19			16	21	2010
NEW	22	Sailor - Anne Shelton						17	19			27	1960
17	23	Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows						25		19		26	1950
21	24	Little Girl - Marty Wilde						23	20			17	1720
24	25	Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men						23	18			22	1690
23	26	North To Alaska - Johnny Horton						22	16				1620
NEW	27	A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart									20	19	910
NEW	28	First Taste Of Love - Ben E. King							20				660
NEW	29	New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds						27					320
NEW	30	Serenata - Sarah Vaughan						28					240
		Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison										23	240
		Chariot - Rhet Stoller						29					160
		Bangers And Mash - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren						30				30	110
		A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury										28	90
		Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes										29	60
		* Listed as #1 on BBC chart but has to be an error.

[kjell]

I see that we who are serious chart researchers prefer your thread Brian. It’s my belief that when the immediate interests subside and the lasting impressions prevail this thread will be a classic. After all, it will be the most reliable chart 1956 - 1969, and nobody will ever be able to supersede it. I’ve been searching the British charts since 1962 and this thread is the only one I visit daily.
About the RR delays of new hits and long stays of those established. This is what happens when shops don’t put enough effort into discerning between the hit records but make guesses that are not satisfactorily evaluated or move dealers reports that arrive late till next weeks chart.
Do keep up this interesting work Brian. Maybe you should consider doing Aug 54 - Mar 56 too.

[Graham76man]

Record dealers have to order records which they paid for upfront, unlike download sites today, they had to have plenty of stock in to cover demand. They largely went on what record reps told them would be big hits. They of course didn't know for certain what would be a hit, so dealers would finish up with unsold stuff. So many would only take a few copies of what anyone who knew anything about the record business would know that's a big hit. I suspect the Record Retailer used shops with small turnovers mostly and who would not order lots of stock, so they ran out. This would also explain why RR records hung around more, unsold stock!
There was one dealer who was on the ball with hits. So much so that if he ordered lots of copies the record companies knew they had a hit. And his name was Brian Epstein! One of the reason that Record Companies gave him the time of day when this manager came to the them, with a new group, was because of his reputation of predicting big hits.

[kingofskiffle]

Anyway for the sake of the guys included in my 21 'likes' I will continue albeit unenthusiastically. I sincerely thank you guys above who posted to support me just 3 out of 21 but I appreciate the gesture from those who did.

Here is the next chart.

I teach and one of the things you learn in that is that people are afraid to put their hand over the wall and say "I don't know" or "I agree" or "I disagree". I am not saying people here are afraid of posting! But a like to show support is easier than trying to find the right words to support. Finding the right words is difficult and when its written down you don't want your meaning misunderstood. Many is the time I have written something and then deleted it and not bothered because I couldn't get it right.


I have liked your post above Brian. If others agree but do not wish to comment or can't think of the right words to comment then they can also like the post.

[Splodj]

When things become tense here I think there is an almost instinctive reaction to stop posting for a while, not wanting to say anything that inadvertently stokes the fire. But I would like to express my wholehearted enthusiasm for this thread and bafflement at the threads nominated for those awards in preference to this one.

Anyway ... I agree that the reporting of Tillotson as joint number 1 must be an error in the lists of BBC charts in circulation. I note that in these lists, like the last error we discovered, there is an absence of equal signs beside both Tillotson and Presley even though they appear for other joint positions in the same column. Strongly indicative of a typo.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Yeah, gotta be a typo. I checked to see if there were recordings or write downs out there of Pick of the Pops this week, couldn't find any. So our only data comes from the Dave Taylor/Trevor Ager BBC file. I don't see how the BBC could have made a mistake with a 1-1-1 tying with a 2-2-2. Most likely it was a typo when Dave/Trevor typed up the charts, and accidentally put a '1' beside Tillotson instead of a '2'. An error to record in the error file, ha...

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Brian, I can only assume you created this thread for the fun and love of the charts and music. And not for awards and recognition. There are relatively few of us geezers around anyway, most on UKMix are youngsters who are not preoccupied with the 50s and 60s. It's gonna be that way regardless of awards, and some of us didn't even know there were UKMix awards. Keep on keepin' on, and don't worry about unimportant stuff. This thread will probably outlive us all, ha, so you're doing it not only for us geezers, but also for the historical record. So many more views to come in the years ahead, I say march on...

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 4th 1961.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 4th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	1	9900
7	2	Sailor - Petula Clark					3	2	2	3	3	4	9350
2	3	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson					2	3	5	2	2	3	9280
5	4	Pepe - Duane Eddy					4	4	3	5	4	2	8920
12	5	Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee					5=	8	4	4	6	9	8340
4	6	Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro					5=	5	7	6	7	5	8250
9	7	You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette					7	6	6	10	5	6	7860
3	8	I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard					8	7	11	7	8	8	7600
6	9	Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates					9	10	9	8	9	7	7350
22	10	Sailor - Anne Shelton					10	10	8	9	13	19	6740
15	11	Rubber Ball - Marty Wilde					11	9	10	11	15	11	6620
10	12	Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk					12	12	18	12	12	10	5970
13	13	Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs					13	15	12	14	11	18	5680
18	14	Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis					15	14	13	17	14	12	5400
14	15	It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley					16	13	19	20	16	13	4660
8	16	Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters					14	19		15	10	14	4280
20	17	Pepe - Russ Conway					18	20	14	13		22	4150
11	18	Perfidia - The Ventures					17	17		16	17	17	3890
17	19	Sway - Bobby Rydell					19	18		19	19	15	3440
NEW	20	A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury						23		18	18	20	3050
25	21	Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men					20	16			20	21	2050
16	22	Like Strangers - The Everly Brothers						21				16	1250
26	23	North To Alaska - Johnny Horton							15			23	1200
21	24	Doll House - The King Brothers						22				24	930
28	25	First Taste Of Love - Ben E. King						30	17				920
NEW	26	Messing About On The River - Josh McCrae							16				900
NEW	27	Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka							20				660
27	28	A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart						25				26	630
24	29	Little Girl - Marty Wilde						24				29	620
29	30	New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds						26					400
		Chariot - Rhet Stoller						27					320
		C'est Si Bon - Conway Twitty						28					240
		Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren										25	180
		What To Do - Buddy Holly						29					160
		Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison										27	120
		Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows										28	90
		Rubber Ball - The Avons										30	30

[Graham76man]

Neil Sedaka - Calender Girl has one of those musical video jukebox films for it made by Scopitone for it. But I have been looking at the video for it and the start intro screen says C1966. So he must have made it years later! Seems a bit odd?

I bet Andy Stewart was top in Scotland all the time he was in the chart

[Metalweb]

Anyone remember "January Man", that weird Kevin Kline film from 1989?

It had a serial killer committing murders based on the notes in the chorus of "Calendar Girl"...

[MrTibbs]

Oh please perish the very idea that that horrendous patronising Andy Stewart record was ever top up here, I could never stand it. What an embarrassment it was and is to this nation.

[MrTibbs]

Calendar Girl is one of those tunes I can still actually recall at the time. Perfect pop.

[Robbie]

Neil Sedaka - Calender Girl has one of those musical video jukebox films for it made by Scopitone for it. But I have been looking at the video for it and the start intro screen says C1966. So he must have made it years later! Seems a bit odd?

I bet Andy Stewart was top in Scotland all the time he was in the chart

The wikipedia page for 'Calendar Girl' confirms the clip is from 1966. The corresponding wikipedia page for Scopitone explains that the amount of the machines installed in US bars and nightclubs had increased dramatically by 1966 and that in order to appeal to an adult American audience a number of acts, current and by then faded acts (including Neil Sedaka) were asked to record films. Many of the film clips made that year were made by the production company owned by Debbie Reynolds.