The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[ACA]

Brian, I can only assume you created this thread for the fun and love of the charts and music. And not for awards and recognition

.

Yes, Robin! I intended to express the same...! Brian, I guess you are nearly the same age as me, I turn 70 this year, and this span of life has taught me to discern between important and not so important things and behavior.
Your site is so important to all of us who have followed the British charts for many decades, and it is important to you, because you have so much joy when you create them.

I can understand your momentary disappointment, but I guess you're not making your site for people who don't understand what you're doing. Maybe they will some day.

As I am busy with my own projects I don't have time to visit your site every day, but I do it as often as I can and have found it very inspirational. So thanks a lot for your work and keep on going!!

Anders

[MrTibbs]

I've moved on. The disappointment was transient once I realised that you guys who follow this thread faithfully and get as much pleasure as I do from it and indeed encourage me onwards are actually more important to me on a day to day basis than strangers opinions who never visit the thread. Anyway, I have charts to compile, post, and engage with u guys here and share views and that's what it's really all about. So let's get to it

[Leo]

I just want to say, as I just saw all the posts above, that the intention of the ukmix awards was never to make anyone feel bad or dissapointed. I really enjoy ukmix, it's a forum that came to my life in a very dificult time when I was going through very intense pain and sadness. And I've grown to enjoy a lot participating in different threads.

I think it was back in 2017 when I had an idea to see which were popular threads across the forum, and thought that Replies and Views were two metrics that would show what was "popular". Popular never means good, although many times it is! So I started weekly charts. I must be honest; there were weeks I posted charts and got like 50 views and 0 comments, but it was something I was enjoying. Other times, many members expressed how they enjoyed the thread and I kept doing in.

Then I decided to prepare some Year end charts, and just as Billboard Awards, to create that spin-off that are the awards. So the awards highlight "popular" and then we can choose the best amongst them. Are those the BEST ones? not sure, maybe yes or maybe not, but they are OUTSTANDING, that's why each category is "outstanding" and not "best".

I was thinking back then to open up for nominations and make awards based on people's interest. But to be honest, there would be no enough participation, that's why I come up with nominations based on mathematical reasons highlighting what's "popular" based on views and replies. It's easier to make memebrs vote for awards than to get involved in all noms and then votes!

That being said, this MrTibbs' thread is verypopular, gets a lot of interaction, and a good number of views and replies, and I love that. I came here time ago because I was doing the ukmix hot100 and found the name and got curious and I was thrilled about this idea. No, I didn't post, I just checked. So, if I was to decide MY personal favourte new thread, I would named this one as a finalist for sure. Showcase a lot of love for music, brings something fresh to the site, generates some discussion. Its a fantastic idea and very well crafted.

That's all I wanted to say cause I feel bad you felt dissapointed because of any idea of mine. The idea of the awards is to celebrate ukmix. I never imagined those rankings and awards would make anyone feel bad.

Hope you (and the rest of members that posted here about that nomination) understand those awards are celebratory but NEVER intend to be naming the best of anything. I hope this thread wins in the category it got nominated but, more than anything, that chart lovers discover this place and come and enjoy as much as many of you are doing.

wish you well, Leo

[Splodj]

Yeah, gotta be a typo. I checked to see if there were recordings or write downs out there of Pick of the Pops this week, couldn't find any.

However there is a recording (below) of a retro-POTP in 1992 revisiting the 1961 chart. At that time POTP was still using the BBC chart. As you can hear on the recording Johnny Tillotson was clearly "back at number two" as Alan Freeman says, and then confirmed as number two in the countdown.

I suppose this is not definitive; it is possible there was a 'clean up' operation (I notice that Rubber Ball is untied at number 10) but highly unlikely.

https://www.mixcloud.com/terry-obrie...eman-pt1-1961/

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 11th 1961.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 11th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	1	9900
2	2	Sailor - Petula Clark					2	2	2	2	2	2	9570
5	3	Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee					3	3	3	3	3	7	9120
4	4	Pepe - Duane Eddy					4	5	4	5	4	5	8690
7	5	You’re Sixteen - Johnny Burnette					5	4	5	6	5	4	8580
3	6	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson					6	6	6	4	6	3	8560
6	7	Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro					7	9	9	7	7	6	7670
10	8	Sailor - Anne Shelton					8	8	7	8	12	10	7390
NEW	9	F.B.I. - The Shadows					9	10	8	11	8	22	6680
12	10	Buona Sera - Mr.Acker Bilk					11	11	11	10	13	9	6670
11	11	Rubber Ball - Marty Wilde					10	7	10	15	10	11	6590
9	12	Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates					13	18	13	9	11	8	6230
8	13	I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard					12	15	17	12	9	12	5880
NEW	14	Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers					14=	12	12	13	17	25	5520
NEW	15	This Is It / Who Am I - Adam Faith					16=	14	15	19	15	28	4530
14	16	Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis					14=	12		16	14	20	4350
17	17	Pepe - Russ Conway					17	18	18	14		19	4050
13	18	Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs					18	17		18	19	15	3630
NEW	19	Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles						22	14	17			3280
27	20	Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka					19	16	20	20		29	3130
19	21	Sway - Bobby Rydell						21			20	17	1770
21	22	Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men						23			18	16	1740
15	23	It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley					20	24			16	18	1700
30	24	New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds						20				23	1120
26	25	Messing About On The River - Josh McCrae							16				900
20	26	A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury						28				14	750
23	27	North To Alaska - Johnny Horton							19				720
28	28	A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart						24				27	680
16	29	Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters										13	540
18	30	Perfidia - The Ventures						29				21	460
		Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers						29
		Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee						26					400
		C'est Si Bon - Conway Twitty						27					320
		Little Girl - Marty Wilde										24	210
		Ginchy - Bert Weedon						29					160
		Doll House - The King Brothers										26	150
		Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren										30	30

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

However there is a recording (below) of a retro-POTP in 1992 revisiting the 1961 chart. At that time POTP was still using the BBC chart. As you can hear on the recording Johnny Tillotson was clearly "back at number two" as Alan Freeman says, and then confirmed as number two in the countdown.

I suppose this is not definitive; it is possible there was a 'clean up' operation (I notice that Rubber Ball is untied at number 10) but highly unlikely.

https://www.mixcloud.com/terry-obrie...eman-pt1-1961/

Great find, Splodj !! I think this answers the question, for 28 Jan 1961 Tillotson was indeed #2, Elvis was sole #1, and the BBC file tie at #1 was a typo error.

This brings up several points.

1. I listened to the full Top 20 recap at the end of the sound file, and Alan Freeman quoted no ties whatsoever, even though the BBC file listed 5 ties. I think what happened was this: Alan (or Derek Chinnery) must have been using a tie breaker, and this BBC chart by Dave/Trevor was not actually found in the BBC library, they must have re-created this chart themselves by averaging the NME, MM, and Disc charts together. And Dave/Trevor must not have used a tie breaker as Alan/Derek had done. As I've mentioned in other threads, I have 4 versions of the D/T BBC file, and each one had occasional chart position tweaks to it. I can only guess, again, that D/T re-created charts they couldn't find at the BBC library, and then revised their info once other info was discovered, either chart write downs by fans or POTP tape recordings.

In looking at the ties for this week, if the BBC did indeed use a tie breaker, then it might have been this, just a guess: if 2 records tied, then the record moving down the chart from last week would be placed at the lower position. If both records moved down from last week, then the higher record last week would get the higher position this week. If both records were moving up, then the higher record last week would get the higher position this week.

2. I'm assuming that this Alan Freeman countdown for 28 Jan 1961 was a live airing in 1992, the BBC were not playing an old tape of the actual countdown. Correct me if I'm wrong, I just can't imagine the BBC saving tapes of old radio shows, but who knows. They threw out all those 60s episodes of Doctor Who...

And I'm also assuming that Alan pulled out the old saved BBC chart for this date, and played the records and quoted the chart positions as they were in 1961. But who knows? Maybe there were ties on the original show, and Alan broke the ties for the 1992 re-do?

3. Splodj, please tell us more about these retro countdowns included along with current shows. I think Alan mentioned he was doing 3 of them for this 1992 broadcast. Was this typical? Is there documentation somewhere of all retro POTP countdowns broadcast with current shows, so we can listen to them, and compare them against the D/T BBC file, and get some kind of verification for old BBC chart positions?

Cheers n chips !!

[Splodj]

It looks to me like Phil Swern (retro-POTP producer) took the original BBC charts and then did his own tiebreaking.

The most reliable source for which years were featured in retro-POTP shows is the BBC Genome site.

There are more easily navigable lists of POTP shows in the threads here:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/pops...ode-guide-f18/

This German site has a selection of BBC chart show recordings:
http://www.rias1.de/bbc.html

Best of all is a Wiki site which has both a list of POTP shows and links to many mixcloud recordings:
https://thechartshows.fandom.com/wik...ps_1989_-_1992
(navigate from here to other pages)

[MrTibbs]

Dave and Trevor's BBC chart does make reference from time to time to Alan's chart run down not always referring to ties.

I also have to say that this is where The Ultimate Chart comes into it's own, by refining the criteria for averaging the charts so that we don't get this propensity for messy ties that I think devalued the BBC chart time and time again.

The other disadvantage in Alan's later 90's POTP shows was that on at least one occasion I can personally remember (although Alan still theoretically used the original BBC chart) he changed the number one position on broadcast and rundown from Acker Bilk to Danny Williams which topped only the RR chart. So even then the influence was being exerted to go with 'the official chart'.

[MrTibbs]

Robin I think your assumption about Dave and Trevor correcting the BBC chart was a work in progress was correct actually. Reason for this is Dave himself once told me in one of his emails that, and I can't remember if it was the 2nd or 3rd version of their file, that he and Trevor had come into possession of a weekly listing of the BBC chart as written down by an avid POTP listener each week. This listing according to Dave highlighted errors which they subsequently amended in their later version of the BBC chart.

This would seem to suggest that although Dave and Trevor had some original data on the BBC chart from the BBC files it was not complete and gaps were filled in by re-calculation and further amendment as new info came to light.

So again, The Ultimate Chart to the rescue.

[Splodj]

The other disadvantage in Alan's later 90's POTP shows was that on at least one occasion I can personally remember (although Alan still theoretically used the original BBC chart) he changed the number one position on broadcast and rundown from Acker Bilk to Danny Williams which topped only the RR chart.

Wasn't the whole chart RR for that week? During the period when the BBC chart was supposed to be used there was at least one occasion when the RR chart was used instead. I suspect what happened is that Swern could not find the BBC chart for that week, or didn't have time to retrieve it or whatever.

[MrTibbs]

That is a possibility Splodge. I was listening to it travelling in the car that Sunday and I knew from memory Acker was #1 on the BBC chart that week then Alan played Acker at #2 and Danny at #1. I thought it was just a programming error at the time.

[MrTibbs]

The point I was trying to make there was that the later 90's POTP broadcasts were not apparently that well researched or attention paid to detail and my hero 'Fluff' did make a few errors in his presentation unfortunately in these latter shows.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Does anyone know the date when the BBC retro show countdowns changed from the BBC chart to the RR chart?

[Splodj]

Yes ...

https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...4#post10523894

[MrTibbs]

When Dale Winton presented POTP he just voiced his parts and then the music was added in later. That's what the once proud POTP ended up being reduced to.

[Splodj]

I thought Dale was dreadful on POTP. Sad because his morning show on Radio Trent had been legendary.

Tony Blackburn always refuses to do voicetracking. If he can't do a show live he records it 'as live'.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 18th 1961.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 18th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	1	9900
2	2	Sailor - Petula Clark					2	2	2	2	2	2	9570
3	3	Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee					3	3	5	3	3	4	9090
9	4	F.B.I. - The Shadows					4	4	4	4	4	6	8850
5	5	You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette					5	4	6	5	5	3	8660
14	6	Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers					6	6	3	6	6	8	8370
4	7	Pepe - Duane Eddy					7	7	9	7	7	5	7860
15	8	Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith					8	8	7	10	9	13	7230
8	9	Sailor - Anne Shelton					11	11	10	8	12	12	6910
6	10	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson					9	13	11	9	8	10	6840
7	11	Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro					10	9	14	11	10	11	6630
19	12	Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles					13	10	8	12	18	18	6190
10	13	Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk					12	15	12	13	11	7	6120
20	14	Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka					14	13	13	14	16	24	5350
13	15	I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard					16	17	18	16	15	16	4800
11	16	Rubber Ball - Marty Wilde					15	12		20	13	9	4290
16	17	Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis					17	16		17	17	19	3800
12	18	Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates					18	18		19	14	15	3690
17	19	Pepe - Russ Conway					19=	24		15		22	2590
26	20	A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury					19=	26		18		20	2160
NEW	21	Pepy's Diary/ Gather In The Mushrooms - Benny Hill							19		19		1320
24	22	New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds						20				17	1300
NEW	23	Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee						22				21	1020
22	24	Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men						25				14	990
25	25	Messing About On The River - Josh McCrae							15				960
RE	26	First Taste Of Love - Ben E. King							16			29	960
28	27	A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart						21				26	950
NEW	28	Mystery Girl - Jess Conrad						27			20		870
NEW	29	(Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods							17				840
NEW	30	Calcutta - Lawrence Welk							19				720
		Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers						19
		This Is It - Adam Faith						23
		Sway - Bobby Rydell						27				23	560
		Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs						29				28	250
		It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley										25	180
		Perfidia - The Ventures										27	120
		C'est Si Bon - Conway Twitty						30					80
		Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters										30	30

[braindeadpj]

Again Josh McCrae (Josh MacRae?) is charting for the third week only from the RM chart. According to the OCC website, Josh is never a top 50 artist on the Record Retailer chart and so far the only other chart to include one of his songs is MM. I know we mentioned this earlier but it is weird that an artist gets three top 20 hits for several weeks without (or barely) charting on any of the other charts...

I know we may have a few artists that only appear on one chart for a week or so, but are there any other artists that are on one chart for several weeks without appearing on any others - particularly the Top 20 charts ?

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

It could be in Josh MacRae's case, he may have had big regional hits that didn't translate cross country. As for RR, they only sampled 30 shops, easy to miss a regional hit if there were no shops there reporting to RR. As for the other charts, Josh may have been just outside the NME Top 30, the MM Top 20, or the Disc Top 20. If we could find some more issues of RM for this time period, we could check those published weekly dealer charts and see if Josh was regional or national. This could easily apply to other artists as well...

[Graham76man]

Depending on the range and amount of records there should be a stack of artists having hits on one chart and not the others. This is simply because we have been told that each chart didn't use the same record shops. If there are not, then that could be down to several things. One would be dealerships. Which is a bit like the car dealers where they only sell you one brand of car. In this case it's record companies. So an EMI dealer will only sell the labels under them. As you probably know each label put out the same song under different artists. So if you went into an EMI shop and asked for the title of a record you might be given the Columbia version of the song. The next will be that they are using the same areas to select the shops taking part. So you finish up with the same region trends, just on a smaller scale on the less shops used. Another cause could be the use of too many London area shops. This however can be an advantage, since London was a bit more trendier than other parts of the UK and even much later London often sold more records than the other parts of the country. Of course a bigger factor in having less acts on the charts, is down to the fan base. It's much easier for shops to sell Cliff and Elvis and the bigger names than say Laurence Welk!

When you add up the shops "330," if there were 8,000 at that time in the UK, that's 7,670 that didn't get asked. So that should see a strong variation factor and removing from the figures Woolworth's Embassy label variant artists, you would have seen a stronger stack of artists than the "chart" samples. However if you then factor in the same things described above to stop the spread of less well known artists, you would I think end up with very few artists that were not known in all the above charts. In fact it might be worse for the less known artists, since the fan base effect might cause several well known acts to have records that missed out being hits. For example if you look at the discographies of several well known acts they have records that didn't make the chart. I recall for example Tommy Steele having hits that missed. And on 45 Cat lots have high owns too!
Therefore some of the less well known acts, might have only had top 30 hits (using all shops) on regional sales, helped by people buying the record where the person lived. I suspect this to be true to the Scottish acts of which "Josh" was one of them.

[MrTibbs]

Spellings and apostrophes are all over the place between earlier charts some say one thing some say another so forgive where I go with one and not another.

[MrTibbs]

It could be in Josh MacRae's case, he may have had big regional hits that didn't translate cross country. As for RR, they only sampled 30 shops, easy to miss a regional hit if there were no shops there reporting to RR. As for the other charts, Josh may have been just outside the NME Top 30, the MM Top 20, or the Disc Top 20. If we could find some more issues of RM for this time period, we could check those published weekly dealer charts and see if Josh was regional or national. This could easily apply to other artists as well...

I do know that having worked with the dealer charts in RM for 54 and 55 that these differed enormously from store to store, even stores in the same locality were identifying different best sellers in their top tens. But, one thing was obvious from them , regional hits did consistently appear. Edinburgh and Glasgow for example always had Scottish records in their top tens that did not appear elsewhere and popular West End shows often reflected in the London store returns. So it is reasonable to believe that regional hits continued into the sixties.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 25th 1961.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 25th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley					1	1	2	1	2	2	9760
2	2	Sailor - Petula Clark					2	2	3	2	1	1	9590
6	3	Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers					3	3	1	3	3	3	9360
4	4	F.B.I. - The Shadows					4	4	4	5	4	6	8740
3	5	Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee					5	5	7	4	5	7	8510
12	6	Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles					6	6	5	6	9	8	8100
8	7	Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith					8	7	6	8	8	5	7880
5	8	You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette					7	8	11	7	6	4	7740
14	9	Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka					10	9	10	9	10	10	7120
7	10	Pepe - Duane Eddy					9	10	12	10	7	9	6990
9	11	Sailor - Anne Shelton					11	15	15	11	12	14	5900
13	12	Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk					13	13	14	15	13	11	5720
29	13	(Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods					15	12	8	14	19	24	5580
NEW	14	Are You Sure - The Allisons					14	14	9	12	17		5470
21	15	Gather In The Mushrooms / Pepy's Diary - Benny Hill					16	18	13	13	15	22	5170
11	16	Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro					12	11		17	11	12	4710
22	17	New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds						21	20	18		16	3340
16	18	Rubber Ball - Marty Wilde						21	16		16	13	2990
28	19	Mystery Girl - Jess Conrad					20	20		19	20	25	2930
23	20	Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee					18	15	17			19	2480
10	21	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson					17	19			14	15	2290
15	22	I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard						30		20	18	26	2090
20	23	A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury					19			16		20	1980
NEW	24	Wheels - The String-A-Longs						24	19			30	1310
NEW	25	Ja-Da - Johnny and The Hurricanes						26	17				1240
24	26	Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men						23				17	1060
19	27	Pepe - Russ Conway						25				23	720
18	28	Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates						27				21	620
17	29	Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis						29				18	550
27	30	A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart						28				28	330
		Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers						17
		Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs										27	120
		Sway - Bobby Rydell										29	60

[MrTibbs]

Another New Entry typifies RR way behind the others as usual as The Allisons debut in every other Top 20 but not even in RR Top 30.

[Splodj]

Although Josh MacRae was from Scotland his 'Messing About' record received high national exposure so I would have expected it to have sold nationally.

'Are You Sure' from The Allisons was the UK entry for Eurovision and marked a significant departure from the traditional Scottish ballad entered last year. I suppose it could be described as our first pop entry, and the phrasing reminds me of a Buddy Holly song. We didn't have a telly at the time, but I can remember a lot of people saying that the Allisons were overcome by the occasion and performed it too nervously. Although looking at them on YouTube they don't seem that bad.

'Are You Sure' is another contentious number one. It was number one for 2 weeks in NME, Record Mirror and Disc, but not at all in Melody Maker and Record Retailer. Although RR is given an unusual alibi by MM, this looks like another unfair omission in the 'Official' list of chart toppers.