The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[MrTibbs]

As I said before I actually seriously considered leaving RR out of the equation completely from the start in The Ultimate Chart but eventually went with it for a number of reasons.

- It doesn't really make much of a difference to the outcome anyway as the sheer weight of all the others minimises its impact due to it's
sample being the smallest.
- By the time Disc dropped out in late 67 RR had improved to a degree where its contribution was more credible and it was needed by then as only 2 other charts were compiled NME and MM.
- Like it or not it it was considered a major chart albeit the least important.

So continue to enjoy The Ultimate, it's all embracing.

[brian05]

I assume Brian you meant 7 in RM and 21 in RR.

Yes, of course. Silly me!

As for double A sides I remember reading in NME concerning "Day tripper/We can work it out" that NME said that record stores could not determine which side was the most popular because customers just asked for the new Beatles record.

Or maybe NME were trying to keep John and Paul (as writers) happy.

[Robbie]

As I said before I actually seriously considered leaving RR out of the equation completely from the start in The Ultimate Chart but eventually went with it for a number of reasons.

- It doesn't really make much of a difference to the outcome anyway as the sheer weight of all the others minimises its impact due to it's
sample being the smallest.
- By the time Disc dropped out in late 67 RR had improved to a degree where its contribution was more credible and it was needed by then as only 2 other charts were compiled NME and MM.
- Like it or not it it was considered a major chart albeit the least important.

So continue to enjoy The Ultimate, it's all embracing.

I'm glad you did include it as these days it is considered to be, whether rightly or wrongly, the official chart for the the time. Even though no-one acknowledged it as such or probably were even aware of it. The weighting system you use is perfect though as the small sample size for the Record Retailer chart means it has virtually no effect on the UAC.

[MrTibbs]

Yeah Robbie, I did believe that if I had excluded it it would have diminished the authenticity of TUAC on the same basis that you explained, that some would say I had excluded the 'official chart'.

It actually helps though because for the first time lining up all the charts side by side prominently exposes the week by week deficiencies of the RR chart for all to see.

[Splodj]

If anyone wants to see what happens if you subtract RR, Brian has already done the heavy lifting. Copy an Ultimate to a spreadsheet, delete the RR column and Data Sort to re-order according to the new totals.

[Splodj]

This should take care of all those bizarre differences and debuts at #1.

I doubt it. I think the records that should debut at number one would just enter higher up than the original RR chart, not at number one.

[MrTibbs]

If anyone wants to see what happens if you subtract RR, Brian has already done the heavy lifting. Copy an Ultimate to a spreadsheet, delete the RR column and Data Sort to re-order according to the new totals.

I actually did that myself with a few random charts to see how much of a difference it made and the difference was minimal in those.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 11th 1961

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 11th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers					1	1	1	1	1	1	9900
3	2	Are You Sure - The Allisons					2	2	2	2	2	2	9570
11	3	Theme For A Dream - Cliff Richard					3=	3	4	3	5	5	9020
5	4	Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles					3=	4	3	4	3	4	9020
2	5	Sailor - Petula Clark					5	6	6	5	4	3	8550
6	6	F.B.I. - The Shadows					7	9	7	7	6	8	7780
4	7	Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley					6	8	11	6	7	7	7710
8	8	(Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods					8	7	8	8	8	10	7610
7	9	Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith					10	10	9	9	10	6	7220
NEW	10	Wooden Heart - Elvis Presley					9	5	5	10	11	24	7160
10	11	Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka					11	10	10	11	9	9	6900
13	12	Wheels - The String-A-Longs					12	13	16	12	12	11	5980
21	13	Samantha - Kenny Ball					14=	12	12	18	17	18	5180
NEW	14	My Kind Of Girl - Matt Monro					16	14	13	16	18	22	5010
17	15	Ja-Da - Johnny and The Hurricanes					14=	16	18	15	16	14	5000
15	16	Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee					18	15	15	17	19	12	4950
9	17	Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee					13	17		13	13	15	4480
16	18	Gather In The Mushrooms / Pepy's Diary - Benny Hill					19	18	20	20	14	16	4210
12	19	You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette					17	20		14	15	13	4090
NEW	20	Marry Me - Mike Preston						24		19			1880
22	21	Mystery Girl - Jess Conrad					20	19			20	23	1750
25	22	Dream Girl - Mark Wynter						23	14				1660
NEW	23	Exodus - Ferrante and Teicher						21	17				1640
24	24	Baby Sittin' Boogie - Buzz Clifford						25	19			27	1320
14	25	Pepe - Duane Eddy						22				17	1140
23	26	Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk						26				20	730
27	27	African Waltz - Johnny Dankworth						27				19	680
20	28	New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds						27				25	500
19	29	Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro										21	300
NEW	30	What Am I Gonna Do - Emile Ford and The Checkmates						29					160
		Emotions - Brenda Lee						29					160
		Goodnight Mrs. Flintstone - The Piltdown Men						29					160
		Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men										26	150
		A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury										28	90
		A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart										29	60
		Seventy Six Trombones - The King Brothers										30	30

[kjell]

Since RR only covers 9 per cent of the stores it’s to be expected that the RR has a minimal influence on the results. Then there’s the problem of consistency, not changing the base of the calculations as you go when you’re not forced to. I agree with Brians policy.

[brian05]

NEW 10 Wooden Heart - Elvis Presley

5 in RM but only 24 in RR. Again notice the lag. And RR is the "official" chart!!
But there will be a big jump next week.

And the same will happen with "Surrender".

[MrTibbs]

Yeah Wooden Heart is heading for a battle for #1 with Are You Sure

[Splodj]

Leaving Cliff hanging around at number 3ish. Then a strange thing happens Cliff-wise ...

‘Gee Whiz It’s You’ is released in Continental Europe, and on sales of imports alone it enters the UK charts. On 8-Apr it appears in NME at 19, and even RR have it at 33, with 'Dream' still at 3. Columbia had not intended to issue 'Gee' in the UK but now feel obliged.

In the 29-Apr-61 issue of The New Record Mirror (as it was called at that time) the singles reviewer expresses his frustration at being sent the record as a new release when it was already in the charts. This indicates that it was only released in the UK towards the end of the month.

[MrTibbs]

Between 1960 and 1963 Cliff was really unfortunate. So many singles peaked at #2 just failing to reach the elusive top spot. I don't think anyone else came close to that number.

[Graham76man]

I've always felt the whole idea of splitting double A sides in a chart is illogical. After all, nobody can buy just one side of a record!

Many double A sides would sell well if buyers liked both sides and felt they were getting good value for their money.

I'm sure buyers wouldn't necessarily ask the shop for the side they preferred (I know I didn't!) but probably the side that was better known /getting more airplay....

I think the answer is nothing to do with airplay or what the record buyers asked for. But simply down to who was filling in the chart return forms to the papers. Remember they simply filled in the top sellers return list on an individual basis. Each shop would do it their own way. Some of the shops would put in one side of the record and others put in the other side. I don't think a single shop would put both sides in the same return, unless some "twit" filled in the form, who simply didn't care about the list they were sending or they got someone new to fill in the form, using say the shop's books!
Of course it does depend on the instructions and the forms sent out by the Music Papers to the shops. It's likely that the return forms are around somewhere and probably blank ones too. If you had a lot of shops to send to (over 110 in one case) then you would have to print lots of them off - at least 6,000 for the year in Melody Maker's case. You would need to print more than required to account for spoils and lost forms (while they were at the shop). Presumably the forms were sent to the shops in batches, sending a form out each week would add costs to the operation. I know that some of them used the phone to get the returns back, but I doubt the NME paper phoned all 80 shops each week, for example. Phone calls in the 50's and 60's were not cheap and somebody writing down while somebody lists 50 records artists and titles each time would take a lot of time. Any publication using the phone system to collect information would have used the sample system, so 80 shops could be the pool for 20 to 30 shops that supplied information.
Years later the Chart Companies were still on about the amount of shops taking part, yet when each chart was produced they never used the 250 or 300 record shops. But the figure used was only say 50 shops! Selected out of 300. Presumably they did test the figures on all 300 and found that you could get a match with less. Probably with the odd freak positions, which for the sake of costs and practicalities they could ignore.

[MrTibbs]

I wish that someone was still around who worked in on of the return shops from that era to give real insight into returns. I mean how did MM, Disc, RM, manage to combine titles consistently well (I discount RR as a joke chart) and largely agree in chart position as their shops faced the same situation of split sides, who filled in the returns was it a store manager or Jimmy at the till, did the music papers give advice or just leave it to stores own discretion as to completion, was accuracy checked. These are the mysteries I would like answers to also.

I also doubt that any store was filling in a return of their 50 best selling records. Shops were a business to sell records not spend time filling in time consuming chart returns. At best I would think they were indicating 20 best sellers.

[Splodj]

Yes. On that World In Action there was a close-up of an individual return in the MM office and only 17 out of 40 places had been filled in.

For a store that was occasionally phoned, free of the requirement to send off a form each week, I wouldn't be surprised if some just winged it.

There does seem to be a particular time, from memory I think it is March 1958, when the non-NME charts did not split the sides. Almost as if they had a meeting about it and all but NME agreed.

[MrTibbs]

There does seem to be a particular time, from memory I think it is March 1958, when the non-NME charts did not split the sides. Almost as if they had a meeting about it and all but NME agreed.

Yes that was the case, all originally split the sides, a hangover from the days when songs were more important than the record, but at that time, MM, Disc, and RM all listed the record with split sides combined. Only, NME held out.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 18th 1961

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 18th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers					1	1	1	1	1	1	9900
10	2	Wooden Heart - Elvis Presley					2	3	2	2	2	4	9430
2	3	Are You Sure - The Allisons					3	4	3	3	3	2	9190
3	4	Theme For A Dream - Cliff Richard					4	2	4	4	4	3	9100
4	5	Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles					5	5	5	5	5	5	8580
6	6	F.B.I. - The Shadows					7	8	6	8	7	6	7820
8	7	(Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods					6	10	7	6	6	9	7780
5	8	Sailor - Petula Clark					8	9	10	7	8	11	7410
14	9	My Kind Of Girl - Matt Monro					9	6	9	10	12	10	7210
9	10	Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith					10	11	11	9	10	7	6990
12	11	Wheels - The String-A-Longs					15	16	12	12	13	8	6020
23	12	Exodus - Ferrante and Teicher					14	7	8	15	19	20	5990
11	13	Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka					12	13	13	14	11	12	5960
13	14	Samantha - Kenny Ball					13	14	14	13	14	14	5720
7	15	Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley					11	12		11	9	13	5360
15	16	Ja-Da - Johnny and The Hurricanes					16	18		17	15	16	3830
NEW	17	And The Heavens Cried - Anthony Newley					18	15	16	18		28	3700
16	18	Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee					19	17		20	20	15	3360
20	19	Marry Me - Mike Preston					17	25		16	16	21	3180
24	20	Baby Sittin' Boogie - Buzz Clifford						21	19	19		23	3080
NEW	21	Goodnight Mrs Flintstone - The Piltdown Men						20	18				1660
18	22	Gather In The Mushrooms / Pepy's Diary - Benny Hill						24			18	17	1630
22	23	Dream Girl - Mark Wynter						23	15				1600
NEW	24	Lazy River - Bobby Darin						22	17				1560
17	25	Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee					20	29			17	22	1130
NEW	26	Exodus - Semprini						19					960
27	27	African Waltz - Johnny Dankworth						26				18	790
19	28	You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette						27				19	680
NEW	29	Warpaint - The Brook Brothers							20				660
21	30	Mystery Girl - Jess Conrad						28				29	300
		Pepe - Duane Eddy						30				24	290
		New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds										25	180
		A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart										26	150
		Seventy Six Trombones - The King Brothers										27	120
		Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk										30	30

[MrTibbs]

The battle has commenced but the war is not over ! Elvis draws first blood pushing The Allisons out of the way and Cliff is a casualty too edged out of the top three.

[Splodj]

I think that prior to the 'split side' changeover there was a period of confusion about it across the board including NME. This is why I have this image of them discussing the matter, with NME even more determinedly splitting sides after that period of confusion, and the others going in the opposite direction.

[Graham76man]

The number of places asked for must have been at least the size of the chart. Especially if you did a top 50. Otherwise you could finish up with a little over the size of the asking amount. Especially if the shops were nearly all in agreement on the big sellers. When you were doing the tallies of the shops based on top tens you couldn't get to the 50 needed for Record Retailer.
Certainly by the mid 60's they were asking for 50 positions, the TV show said that. I don't know if NME was asking for that amount, since they never extended the 30 till the 1980's.

[MrTibbs]

I think that prior to the 'split side' changeover there was a period of confusion about it across the board including NME. This is why I have this image of them discussing the matter, with NME even more determinedly splitting sides after that period of confusion, and the others going in the opposite direction.

It cannot certainly be a coincidence that RM, MM, Disc all stopped around the same time, so yeah a meeting was possible, or did one break rank and the others immediately followed, except NME.

Many later problems also would have been solved if the music papers all came on board, like when the BMRB took over chart compilation and the MM and NME were also invited to contribute but declined. They maybe later regretted this decision when EVENTUALLY the BMRB did become the prominent chart and theirs became marginalised.

[MrTibbs]

The number of places asked for must have been at least the size of the chart. Especially if you did a top 50. Otherwise you could finish up with a little over the size of the asking amount. Especially if the shops were nearly all in agreement on the big sellers. When you were doing the tallies of the shops based on top tens you couldn't get to the 50 needed for Record Retailer.
Certainly by the mid 60's they were asking for 50 positions, the TV show said that. I don't know if NME was asking for that amount, since they never extended the 30 till the 1980's.

It was still possible I think. When I think back to the early RM dealer returns there were hardly any that agreed in any shape or form. Each always had at least a few different records not in any other so there would be a wide spread in total. I just can't see any store sitting down and filling in a return week on week listing fifty titles.

[Metalweb]

Isn't it rather odd the shops were ever asked to provide a list of their best sellers?

To do this accurately a shop would need to record all sales during the week, then go through the info and assemble a chart.

Had the compilers simply asked for a list of sales this would mean less work for the shop and the compilers could have aggregated the individual returns into a more accurate combined chart....

[Gambo]

I must say in my early years of interest in the historical (i.e. before I was born!) British charts I naively assumed that is what would've happened - those who compiled the charts from whatever music paper did so based on actual numbers (or at least those reported by stores whether or not they were truthful), not by getting each contributing store to compile it's own in-house chart without figures and then submit that to derive an overall point score to assign rankings. If only it had been that way around. Though I suspect that the reason MrTibbs gave earlier as to why many shops probably wouldn't provide an accurate or complete list of their Top 30 (and certainly 50) sellers each and every week applied just as evenly to the five music journals who compiled what purported to be national charts - they were in the business of compiling numerous reports on what was happening in their industry more widely and selling as many copies of their papers as possible, and so their staff would've also had limited time to devote to sorting through numerous sales tallies from tens of different record shops to compile a weekly chart based on them, especially in the era before any significant computers were available to help simplify and shorten such a tedious task. Much easier to let the stores do the heavy lifting, place an unrealistic amount of trust in them being correct, and then just total-up the points.