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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    I've never considered that to be honest Graham but it is an interesting idea I have to admit.

    I think I would only be allowed to publish The Ultimate Averaged Chart though and not the other charts side by side like I do on here.
    I wouldn't really even need to mention or even involve the BBC because I'm not using their chart just doing a more robust recalculation of averaging the music paper charts in the same way they did plus my added layer. Obviously my title here 'of the BBC charts reimagined' could not be used.

    It's certainly something to consider when I finish but the big question then would be, would there be much demand for such a chart from the fifties and sixties ?
    There probably would be. It's all in the wording of the intro and the text. For example, I've sold quite a few copies of my chart books (10-15 is quite a lot as far as I'm concerned!) so it depends the outlay and resources. You would almost certainly need to remove all reference to The BBC and just bill it as an average to attempt to arrive at representative chart for the 1960's... But it could certainly be done. The Graham Betts current chart books are Amazon print on demand. They have to be 20 as Amazon gets half (I looked into the scale of charges a long time ago).
    http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
    Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

    Comment


    • The constituent charts are a key part of the attraction to me, as I like to see the inner workings.

      If you replaced the BBC column with a non-weighted composite and a few rules they couldn't complain, even if it largely came up with the same positions they did. This is the sort of thing 'Pop Weekly' did in the 60s.

      Comment


      • If this came to fruition I would have liked to include the constituent charts lots of interest is shown in the charts lined up side by side for comparison against each other. But, would I be allowed to publish charts from NME, MM, Disc, RM ?, and I defo doubt I could publish the RR ones as they are the property of the OCC ?
        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

        Comment


        • Whether these charts are free to reprint depends on the judicial time limit Brian. You can check what’s in accordance with British law. It doesn’t have to the same legal time span as recorded music which in fact used to have 50 years earlier. 69 is 51 years away.

          Comment


          • That's a decision for the future though. Meantime the remainder of 61, and 62/63 to do and then 56 to 59 to give us the full set of charts from March 1956 to February 1969.

            I am so looking forward to 63 in particular. Although I'm aware of some songs prior to that my whole musical world came alive in 63 actually sparked by The Beatles' She Loves You. My musical awakening had arrived.
            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

            Comment


            • You can publish anything as long as you ask permission from the copyright owner. They can charge a fee, or let you have the rights free. In your case you would send a copy of one of the charts showing the layout of the chart in question to the copyright owner, explaining what you want to do. As you are simply referencing the positions and not printing out the charts themselves I can't see them objecting or even wanting a payment. Though no guarantees on that of course. Though of course they would want an acknowledgement, which in some cases might be a specific set of words. Write to the BBC too, asking to use the words "BBC Chart....etc". It could produce a favourable answer and would increase the marketability of the book. Don't assume the BBC will say no. If they are not paying for the book to be published they might be happy to see it and that might involve promotion on the Radio etc.
              Avoid the use of images, unless your own the rights to the pictures or they open source. As they will charge for them!

              PS: you couldn't publish them commercially as since you have put them on here, you have given what they call the "first rights" away.
              Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

              Comment


              • It was actually a nice idea for a bit but no I won't be going down the road of a book. I am doing this project for the pleasure of it. I'm happy with just compiling these meaningful charts and sharing them here where they are appreciated and anticipated.
                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                Comment


                • Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 8th 1961

                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 8th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
                  Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
                  Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                  1 1 Wooden Heart - Elvis Presley 1 2 1 1 1 1 9820
                  2 2 Are You Sure - The Allisons 2 1 2 2 2 2 9650
                  4 3 Theme For A Dream - Cliff Richard 3 3 4 4 3 3 9070
                  3 4 Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 4 4 3 3 5 4 9030
                  5 5 My Kind Of Girl - Matt Monro 5 6 6 6 4 6 8350
                  7 6 Exodus - Ferrante and Teicher 6= 7 9 5 9 8 7890
                  8 7 Lazy River - Bobby Darin 6= 5 5 10 6 12 7770
                  9 8 And The Heavens Cried - Anthony Newley 8 8 8 7 8 9 7670
                  6 9 Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles 9 9 12 9 7 5 7300
                  10 10 F.B.I. - The Shadows 10 11 10 8 12 7 7060
                  14 11 Where The Boys Are - Connie Francis 11 10 7 11 11 16 6770
                  12 12 Samantha - Kenny Ball 12 12 13 17 10 13 5730
                  19 13 Baby Sittin' Boogie - Buzz Clifford 13 14 17 12 17 17 5410
                  11 14 (Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods 14 15 16 16 13 10 5360
                  13 15 Marry Me - Mike Preston 17 22 15 15 14 15 4770
                  23 16 Warpaint - The Brook Brothers 15 20 13 13 16 4690
                  16 17 Wheels - The String-A-Longs 16 16 18 15 11 4030
                  17 18 Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith 19 17 14 14 3500
                  26 19 You're Driving Me Crazy - The Temperance Seven 18 13 11 18 26 3440
                  15 20 Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka 24 20 24 1980
                  18 21 Sailor - Petula Clark 30 19 20 1730
                  22 22 African Waltz - Johnny Dankworth 20 18 19 29 1700
                  27 23 Don't Treat Me Like A Child - Helen Shapiro 23 20 1190
                  NEW 24 Blue Moon - The Marcels 26 18 1180
                  24 25 Seventy Six Trombones - The King Brothers 21 19 1160
                  30 26 Gee Whiz It's You - Cliff Richard 19 25 1140
                  20 27 Goodbye Mrs Flintstone - The Piltdown Men 25 18 870
                  NEW 28 Pony Time - Chubby Checker 19 720
                  NEW 29 Exodus - Mantovani 20 660
                  25 30 Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley 27 21 620
                  Ja-Da - Johnny and The Hurricanes 29 23 400
                  Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee 22 270
                  Good Time Baby - Bobby Rydell 28 240
                  A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart 27 120
                  Exodus - Semprini 28 90
                  'Til There Was You - Peggy Lee 30 30
                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                  Comment


                  • Elvis continues to hold The Allisons at bay. Is their challenge over. In at 24 comes the excellent Blue Moon from The Marcels, I was way too young to remember it at the time but when I heard it on the radio years later you can believe I bought it then.
                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                    Comment


                    • I find the dates on the Official Charts site very confusing. For this week's chart it says '06 April 1961 - 12 April 1961' then below that as the main title is the first of those dates 6-Apr-61. Fair enough, I suppose that was the publication date. But then when you look at each record's 'Chart Facts', the 'First charted' and 'Chart run' dates are the latter date - 12-Apr-61.

                      So for "Gee Whiz It's You" it says that entered at 33 on 5-Apr-61, but then when you click on 'View Chart' it turns out to be the chart dated 30-Mar-61.

                      Comment


                      • Yeah Splodj RR had weird dates out of touch with the other papers and these were not corrected just adopted by the OCC which does make it confusing.
                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                        Comment


                        • I've just finished 1961 and I don't know what must have been in the water in the month of December but the last three weeks of 16th, 23rd, and 30th, chart positions are all over the place, and I don't just mean RR this time I mean every one of charts. There are some really weird patterns.
                          Normally NME, MM, Disc, and RM, are quite similar pattern wise with a difference of a few places in each, but in the 3 weeks mentioned above that goes completely out the window.

                          RM granted published a 'skeleton' chart which was published on 30th December and said at the time to be inaccurate. This was corrected in January 1962 and I have used the corrected Top 20 for for 30th December but even that has at least one eye watering anomaly.
                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                            I've just finished 1961 and I don't know what must have been in the water in the month of December but the last three weeks of 16th, 23rd, and 30th, chart positions are all over the place, and I don't just mean RR this time I mean every one of charts. There are some really weird patterns.
                            Normally NME, MM, Disc, and RM, are quite similar pattern wise with a difference of a few places in each, but in the 3 weeks mentioned above that goes completely out the window.

                            RM granted published a 'skeleton' chart which was published on 30th December and said at the time to be inaccurate. This was corrected in January 1962 and I have used the corrected Top 20 for for 30th December but even that has at least one eye watering anomaly.
                            Perhaps in the run up to christmas, the stores were extra busy and so did not have as much time to create accurate listings for submission or didn't even submit their lists. Don't know why we would see this in 1961 but not 1960 (or 1964-1968). Perhaps sales went up significantly in 1961 thus throwing the shops for a loop (so to speak) at Christmas - any evidence of this based on yearly volume? Or maybe fewer people were around at the magazine offices to create the charts? Was there a postal strike in some areas (maybe London) but not others? Or was there some other event that may explain it?

                            Comment


                            • Yeah, It's certainly a mystery especially as it wasn't just one chart but all 5 of them all over the place for 3 weeks, 5 Record Retailers
                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                              Comment


                              • Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 15th 1961

                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 15th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
                                Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
                                Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                1 1 Wooden Heart - Elvis Presley 1 1 2 1 2 1 9790
                                2 2 Are You Sure - The Allisons 2 2 1 2 1 2 9680
                                4 3 Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 3 3 3 3 5 3 9140
                                3 4 Theme For A Dream - Cliff Richard 4 5 6 4 3 4 8760
                                7 5 Lazy River - Bobby Darin 5 4 4 9 4 5 8330
                                8 6 And The Heavens Cried - Anthony Newley 6 8 8 5 6 6 8080
                                10 7 F.B.I. - The Shadows 8 10 5 6 10 8 7730
                                6 8 Exodus - Ferrante and Teicher 7 7 10 7 7 9 7680
                                5 9 My Kind Of Girl - Matt Monro 9 11 12 8 8 7 7140
                                11 10 Where The Boys Are - Connie Francis 10 9 9 10 9 10 7120
                                19 11 You're Driving Me Crazy - The Temperance Seven 11 6 7 12 12 13 7020
                                9 12 Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles 12 12 16 11 11 14 6130
                                16 13 Warpaint - The Brook Brothers 13 16 11 13 13 17 5700
                                24 14 Blue Moon - The Marcels 14= 14 14 14 16 24 5210
                                12 15 Samantha - Kenny Ball 16 13 18 17 15 15 5040
                                13 16 Baby Sittin' Boogie - Buzz Clifford 14= 15 18 15 14 19 5030
                                22 17 African Waltz - Johnny Dankworth 18 18 13 20 17 22 4300
                                26 18 Gee Whiz It's You - Cliff Richard 19 19 15 18 20 18 4290
                                18 19 Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith 17 17 16 11 3370
                                14 20 (Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods 24 20 18 12 2440
                                15 21 Marry Me - Mike Preston 25 19 16 2250
                                23 22 Don't Treat Me Like A Child - Helen Shapiro 20 19 19 29 1620
                                17 23 Wheels - The String-A-Longs 21 20 1130
                                NEW 24 A Hundred Pounds Of Clay - Craig Douglas 30 17 920
                                NEW 25 The Muskrat Rumble - Freddy Cannon 22 720
                                NEW 26 (I Wanna) Love My Life Away - Gene Pitney 23 640
                                25 27 Seventy Six Trombones - The King Brothers 25 27 600
                                NEW 28 Good Time Baby - Bobby Rydell 27 320
                                NEW 29 Little Boy Sad - Johnny Burnette 29 26 310
                                20 30 Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka 21 300
                                Ja-Da - Johnny and The Hurricanes 28 240
                                Sailor - Petula Clark 23 240
                                Goodnight Mrs Flintstone - The Piltdown Men 25 180
                                Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley 28 90
                                Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee 30 30
                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                Comment


                                • The battle rages on ! Elvis holds firm but loses ground as The Allisons are now #1 in two music papers to Elvis' 3.
                                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                  Comment


                                  • NME flip-flopping with their number one; Presley then Allisons then Presley then Allisons.

                                    First entry for Gene Pitney, at least as a singer!

                                    Comment


                                    • I see we are now over 40,000 views to the thread. Wow !
                                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                      Comment


                                      • Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 22nd 1961

                                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 22nd 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
                                        Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
                                        Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                        2 1 Are You Sure - The Allisons 1 1 1 2 1 2 9760
                                        1 2 Wooden Heart - Elvis Presley 2 2 2 1 2 1 9710
                                        3 3 Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 5 7 5 3 5 4 8670
                                        11 4 You're Driving Me Crazy - The Temperance Seven 3= 4 4 5 4 10 8620
                                        5 5 Lazy River - Bobby Darin 3= 3 7 7 3 3 8560
                                        4 6 Theme For A Dream - Cliff Richard 6 9 6 4 6 7 8200
                                        14 7 Blue Moon - The Marcels 7 5 3 8 9 12 7960
                                        6 8 And The Heavens Cried - Anthony Newley 9 13 9 6 7 9 7370
                                        8 9 Exodus - Ferrante and Teicher 8 6 14 11 8 6 7120
                                        7 10 F.B.I. - The Shadows 12 12 8 10 10 8 6950
                                        10 11 Where The Boys Are - Connie Francis 10 8 10 12 11 11 6790
                                        13 12 Warpaint - The Brook Brothers 11 11 11 9 12 14 6680
                                        18 13 Gee Whiz It's You - Cliff Richard 13 10 12 14 15 15 5970
                                        9 14 My Kind Of Girl - Matt Monro 14 16 16 13 13 5 5760
                                        12 15 Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles 15 15 15 16 14 16 5190
                                        15 16 Samantha - Kenny Ball 16 14 18 19 17 13 4700
                                        17 17 African Waltz - Johnny Dankworth 17 17 17 17 19 17 4520
                                        24 18 A Hundred Pounds Of Clay - Craig Douglas 18 18 13 15 3880
                                        16 19 Baby Sittin' Boogie - Buzz Clifford 19 22 19 18 16 23 3860
                                        NEW 20 Theme From Dixie - Duane Eddy 23 20 20 30 2540
                                        29 21 Little Boy Sad - Johnny Burnette 20= 20 20 18 24 2400
                                        22 22 Don't Treat Me Like A Child - Helen Shapiro 20= 18 20 21 1890
                                        25 23 The Muskrat Rumble - Freddy Cannon 21 800
                                        19 24 Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith 26 18 790
                                        23 25 Wheels - The String-A-Longs 27 20 650
                                        26 26 (I Wanna) Love My Life Away - Gene Pitney 25 28 570
                                        NEW 27 How Wonderful To Know - Pearl Carr and Teddy Johnson 24 560
                                        20 28 (Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods 30 19 440
                                        27 29 Seventy Six Trombones - The King Brothers 28 25 420
                                        21 30 Marry Me - Mike Preston 22 270
                                        Good Time Baby - Bobby Rydell 29 160
                                        Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley 26 150
                                        Pony Time - Chubby Checker 27 120
                                        More Than I Can Say - Bobby Vee 29 60
                                        Last edited by MrTibbs; Mon February 1, 2021, 14:08.
                                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                        Comment


                                        • The Allisons' patience is rewarded as they replace Elvis at the top this week in The Ultimate Chart and 3 of the music paper charts.
                                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                          Comment


                                          • Minor typo in the 22th April chart as you have last week's position for Blue Moon as 17 whereas it was actually 14.

                                            Comment


                                            • Oops ! Thanks for noticing that brain. Its now corrected
                                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                              Comment


                                              • The Temperance Seven and The Marcels both have a mind to be the next weeks #1, but someone else has their eye on it too
                                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                                Comment


                                                • Boy were those early 60's charts screwed up. Nearly a month later after they had topped the chart, they get to the top on several of them. At this point Cliff was on top just waiting to get shoved off by the Temperance Seven. I don't think it's a question of how many shops you have on the books that's the problem with the accuracy of these component charts. For as Brian has pointed out, if you knock down the numbers the results are the same. The trouble is that each of these charts treated one record shop the same as the other in the way it compiled a chart. But the selling of records was never like that. One store could often sell 20 or 30 times the amount of another. Not so long ago Amazon downloads had a record at the top all week. And iTunes had it much lower. However the Amazon topper appeared on the OCC chart much lower down. Because though it was selling like hot cakes on Amazon compared to the rest of the UK it wasn't selling noway near enough to make the top. Way back in the 70's the Sex Pistols record was most distributed record and on the 18 June 1977 the points based NME chart put the record at the top. But the sales based chart (and the Real Chart) didn't. Why? Because despite all the independents shops selling the Sex Pistols, Woolworth had no stocks of it at all (they refused to sell it). And Woolies could outsell all the others combined, so their best seller was top that week.
                                                  Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                                  Comment


                                                  • There was not such a difference between large and small vendors then, and no chains like Woolies were involved. And the Sun survey showed that, in that week at least, a points based chart was a good guide to sales.

                                                    The system was not perfect by any means, but I think to say it was screwed up is an exaggeration.

                                                    Comment


                                                    • Graham76man
                                                      Graham76man commented
                                                      Editing a comment
                                                      The Sun paper was based on a small sample and when the record survey was done all the other charts had much greater samples. There were many different sized shops back then some much larger than others. One record shop could sell say 100 records and another 1,000 in a week. It wouldn't have made much difference to the sales even if they had one Woolies shop on the panel as that would still only contribute 50 points max. Plus the records would be all Embassy Label and I suspect that one shop could not have even made a top 30 chart with just 50 points. Records don't make it with lots of shops backing them.
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