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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    There is no such act as that. It was the Central Band Of The Royal Air Force.

  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    Jimmy Young was certainly a massively successful singer prior to becoming a DJ at first Radio Luxembourg (who seemed to employ chart stars in the 1950s as much as professional DJs) then at the BBC on the Light Programme then Radio 1 then his long running show on Radio 2. I have to admit I only know 'Unchained Melody' by him. 'The Man From Laramie' doesn't ring any bells at all.

    It must have caused some confusion for record buyers that the two singers who covered 'The Yellow Rose Of Texas' both had the surname Miller. I'm sure my mother owned the record on 10" but I can't remember which Miller it was by. She certainly owned 'Rock Around The Clock' on 10" as I remember dropping it as a child and it breaking! Those old (shellac?) records certainly could be very brittle...
    The Man From Laramie is a film released in August 1955 with James Stewart in the title role. The title song was written by lyricist Ned Washington and composed by Lester Lee.
    In the film it was sung by a chorus.

    The old 78's were made from Shellac a resin secreted by the female lac bug on trees in the forests of India and Thailand. It is still collected for the production of varnish for old furniture and nail polish.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    Jimmy Young was certainly a massively successful singer prior to becoming a DJ at first Radio Luxembourg (who seemed to employ chart stars in the 1950s as much as professional DJs) then at the BBC on the Light Programme then Radio 1 then his long running show on Radio 2. I have to admit I only know 'Unchained Melody' by him. 'The Man From Laramie' doesn't ring any bells at all.

    It must have caused some confusion for record buyers that the two singers who covered 'The Yellow Rose Of Texas' both had the surname Miller. I'm sure my mother owned the record on 10" but I can't remember which Miller it was by. She certainly owned 'Rock Around The Clock' on 10" as I remember dropping it as a child and it breaking! Those old (shellac?) records certainly could be very brittle...

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 29th 1955

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 29th 1955 NME RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 60 52 Points
    Week Week The Top 27 Singles Chart 20 Scored
    1 1 The Man From Laramie - Jimmy Young 1 1 2240
    2 2 Yellow Rose Of Texas - Mitch Miller 2 2 2128
    3 3 Blue Star - Cyril Stapleton 2 4 2024
    8 4 Hernando's Hideaway - The Johnston Brothers (A) 4 5 1852
    6 5 Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets 7 3 1776
    4 6 Rose Marie - Slim Whitman 5 6 1740
    5 7 Cool Water - Frankie Laine 6 9 1524
    10 8 Hey There - Rosemary Clooney 8 8 1456
    11 9 Hey There - Johnny Ray (A) 10 7 1388
    7 10 Everywhere - David Whitfield 9 10 1292
    12 11 Hernando's Hideaway - Johnny Ray (B) 11 11 1120
    9 12 The Breeze And I - Caterina Valente 12 12 1008
    14 13 I'll Come When You Call - Ruby Murray 13 13 896
    13 14 Learnin' The Blues - Frank Sinatra 15 14 724
    15 15 Close The Door - The Stargazers 14 420
    16 16 Indian Love Call - Slim Whitman 15 312
    25 17 Go On By - Alma Cogan 16 300
    22 18 Hey There - The Johnston Brothers (B) 16 260
    23 19 Yellow Rose Of Texas - Gary Miller 17 240
    NEW 20 Bring Your Smile Along - Frankie Laine 17 208
    NEW 21 Song Of The Dreamer - Johnnie Ray 18 180
    18 22 Humming Bird - Frankie Laine 18 156
    NEW 22 That Old Black Magic - Sammy Davis Jnr. 18 156
    19 24 I'll Never Stop Loving You - Doris Day 19 120
    NEW 25 Blue Star - Ron Goodwin 20 60
    NEW 25 The Man From Laramie - Al Martino 20 60
    20 27 Hey There - Sammy Davis Jnr. 20 52
    17 Evermore - Ruby Murray
    21 The Dam Busters March - The Band Of The R.A.F.
    24 Love Me Or Leave Me - Sammy Davis Jnr.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    Note that Band of the R.A.F. is a re-entry (on the 22/10/1955 chart) as there were at 24 on the 8/10/1955 chart.
    I have amended that. Thanks brain.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Note that Band of the R.A.F. is a re-entry (on the 22/10/1955 chart) as there were at 24 on the 8/10/1955 chart.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Some title errors one of which is very confusing
    Central Band Of The Royal Air Force for number 21. - Took ages to find that!!!
    Sammy Davis - ONLY for 20, but 24 is Jnr!

    Everywhere - David Whitfield - is spelled Ev'rywhere
    Hummingbird - Frankie Laine - the title in the UK is all one word. Other countries it can be two.

    I checked the records for the 22 October chart. The following chart places were NOT on 45.
    2, 5, 9, 10, 11, 14, 18, 19, 21, 23 and 25.
    Number 3 had the lowest amount of owns for both formats - 14 in total. Number 6 had the most on both formats.


    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    Good idea to note double sided singles. The early charts contain many songs which I recognise by name only (from seeing them listed in the Top 20 book and Hit Singles) so it's good to see why acts were having two hits at the same time.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
    Excellent decision Brian !! Thanks for being open to us presenting various thoughts and eye deers.

    Now for another: for those records that are split at two different positions, how about adding an indication of some kind to the right of the artist name? Maybe the side that debuts first (if they debuted at different weeks), or the side that debuts at the highest position gets the A, and the flip gets the B? Or you could look up which side was the actual A side. Something like that. With a quick glance, we would know to look for the other sides on the chart.

    Groovy movie...
    Good news ! I have taken both yours, Robin and Splodj's suggestion for identification on board and retrospectively added A and B to split sides that will appear on the chart to identify each. Good suggestion !

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Or a simple '(split)'.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Excellent decision Brian !! Thanks for being open to us presenting various thoughts and eye deers.

    Now for another: for those records that are split at two different positions, how about adding an indication of some kind to the right of the artist name? Maybe the side that debuts first (if they debuted at different weeks), or the side that debuts at the highest position gets the A, and the flip gets the B? Or you could look up which side was the actual A side. Something like that. With a quick glance, we would know to look for the other sides on the chart.

    Groovy movie...

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by kjell View Post
    Therefore I hesitated to take part in the debate because I didnt want to make the discussion more difficult.
    I felt like that too. Funnily enough in the Early Record Mirror thread at post 165 I naively say that the songs at 7& 18 are two sides of the same record. It is explained to me that this is how charts operated then.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 22nd 1955

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 22nd 1955 NME RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 60 52 Points
    Week Week The Top 25 Singles Chart 20 Scored
    1 1 The Man From Laramie - Jimmy Young 1 1 2240
    5 2 Yellow Rose Of Texas - Mitch Miller 3 2 2068
    4 3 Blue Star - Cyril Stapleton 2 4 2024
    3 4 Rose Marie - Slim Whitman 5 3 1896
    2 5 Cool Water - Frankie Laine 6 6 1680
    12 6 Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets 8 5 1612
    6 7 Everywhere - David Whitfield 4 10 1592
    10 8 Hernando's Hideaway - The Johnston Brothers (A) 10 7 1388
    8 9 The Breeze And I - Caterina Valente 7 11 1360
    9 10 Hey There - Rosemary Clooney 10 8 1336
    16 11 Hey There - Johnnie Ray (A) 9 12 1188
    10 12 Hernando's Hideaway - Johnnie Ray (B) 12 9 1164
    7 13 Learnin' The Blues - Frank Sinatra 13 15 792
    20 14 I'll Come When You Call - Ruby Murray 15 14 724
    13 15 Close The Door - The Stargazers 14 19 524
    14 16 Indian Love Call - Slim Whitman 13 416
    19 17 Evermore - Ruby Murray 16 300
    18 18 Humming Bird - Frankie Laine 16 260
    NEW 19 I'll Never Stop Loving You - Doris Day 17 240
    21 20 Hey There - Sammy Davis Jnr. 17 208
    RE 21 The Dam Busters March - The Band Of The R.A.F. 18 180
    NEW 22 Hey There - The Johnston Brothers (B) 18 156
    NEW 23 Yellow Rose Of Texas - Gary Miller 19 120
    17 24 Love Me Or Leave Me - Sammy Davis Jnr. 19 104
    22 25 Go On By - Alma Cogan 20 60
    15 Every Day Of My Life - Malcolm Vaughan
    22 Hey There - Lita Roza
    24 Love Me Or Leave Me - Doris Day
    24 Yellow Rose Of Texas - Ronnie Hilton

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by kjell View Post
    Guess you’ve made the right decision Brian. It’s according to what I’ve meant for decades, but earlier discussions lead me to believe I was in minority. Therefore I hesitated to take part in the debate because I didn’t want to make the discussion more difficult.
    Your valid and relevant opinions are always welcomed kjell. They have always proved invaluable in the past and I'm glad you too approve of the amended chart.

    For you and everyone else here is today's new chart

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    Guess you’ve made the right decision Brian. It’s according to what I’ve meant for decades, but earlier discussions lead me to believe I was in minority. Therefore I hesitated to take part in the debate because I didn’t want to make the discussion more difficult.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 15th 1955 NME RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 60 52 Points
    Week Week The Top 25 Singles Chart 20 Scored
    1 1 The Man From Laramie - Jimmy Young 1 1 2240
    3 2 Cool Water - Frankie Laine 2 2 2128
    2 3 Rose Marie - Slim Whitman 4 3 1956
    6 4 Blue Star - Cyril Stapleton 3 5 1912
    8 5 Yellow Rose Of Texas - Mitch Miller 5 4 1844
    5 6 Everywhere - David Whitfield 6 6 1680
    4 7 Learnin' The Blues - Frank Sinatra 7 8 1516
    7 8 The Breeze And I - Caterina Valente 8 9 1404
    14 9 Hey There - Rosemary Clooney 10 7 1388
    12 10 Hernando's Hideaway- The Johnston Brothers (A) 11 10 1172
    19 10 Hernando's Hideaway - Johnnie Ray (B) 11 10 1172
    NEW 12 Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley and His Comets 13 12 948
    10 13 Close The Door - The Stargazers 9 18 876
    9 14 Indian Love Call - Slim Whitman 14 13 836
    11 15 Every Day Of My Life - Malcolm Vaughan 15 15 672
    21 16 Hey There - Johnnie Ray (A) 16 14 664
    13 17 Love Me Or Leave Me - Sammy Davis Jnr. 17 17 448
    17 18 Humming Bird - Frankie Laine 16 260
    16 19 Evermore - Ruby Murray 18 180
    NEW 20 I'll Come When You Call - Ruby Murray 19 120
    22 21 Hey There - Sammy Davis Jnr. 19 104
    NEW 22 Go On By - Alma Cogan 20 60
    20 22 Hey There - Lita Roza 20 60
    NEW 24 Love Me Or Leave Me - Doris Day 20 52
    NEW 24 Yellow Rose Of Texas - Ronnie Hilton 20 52
    15 Strange Lady In Town - Frankie Laine
    18 John And Julie - Eddie Calvert
    23 Stars Shine In Your Eyes - Ronnie Hilton
    24 The Dam Busters March - The Band Of The R.A.F.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 8th 1955 NME RM Total
    This The Sound Survey Stores 60 52 Points
    Week The Top 24 Singles Chart 20 Scored
    1 The Man From Laramie - Jimmy Young 2 1 2180
    2 Rose Marie - Slim Whitman 1 3 2136
    3 Cool Water - Frankie Laine 3 2 2068
    4 Learnin' The Blues - Frank Sinatra 4 5 1852
    5 Everywhere - David Whitfield 5 4 1844
    6 Blue Star - Cyril Stapleton 6 6 1680
    7 The Breeze And I - Caterina Valente 7 9 1464
    8 Yellow Rose Of Texas - Mitch Miller 9 8 1396
    9 Indian Love Call - Slim Whitman 10 7 1388
    10 Close The Door - The Stargazers 8 11 1300
    11 Every Day Of My Life - Malcolm Vaughan 12 10 1112
    12 Hernando's Hideaway - The Johnston Brothers (A) 11 14 964
    13 Love Me Or Leave Me - Sammy Davis Jnr. 13 15 792
    14 Hey There - Rosemary Clooney 18 12 648
    15 Strange Lady In Town - Frankie Laine 15 17 568
    16 Evermore - Ruby Murray 14 420
    17 Humming Bird - Frankie Laine 13 416
    18 John And Julie - Eddie Calvert 16 19 404
    19 Hernando's Hideaway - Johnnie Ray (B) 20 16 320
    20 Hey There - Lita Roza 17 240
    21 Hey There - Johnnie Ray (A) 18 156
    22 Hey There - Sammy Davis Jnr. 19 120
    23 Stars Shine In Your Eyes - Ronnie Hilton 20 60
    24 The Dam Busters March - The Band Of The R.A.F. 20 52

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I have deleted the first two charts completely from above and start again below incorporating the amended format as discussed above. So here are the amended Ultimate Averaged Charts for the fifties reflecting the times as they were back then.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    OK, having looked ahead at what will happen after MM joins the fold next year I can see that they too initially will split sides although like RM will change this later. On top of this, your comments above, all of them, do help me, and I sincerely thank you all for offering these to help.

    The one phrase that leaps out at me is 'be true to the actual charts'. This one statement alone makes the situation much clearer in my mind. The time will come later in the decade when a split side can be ignored by averaging other charts without the split, and an average taken to represent a combined position (as I did in the sixties).

    But for these early years both NME and RM did split sides as will MM in 6 months time so as that was the accepted practise of the time who am I to disagree and rewrite the historical record of these early charts. So I will 'be true to the actual charts'.

    I will therefore go back and amend the 2 charts already posted to take heed of this and will advise when this is done.

    Thanks again to all concerned for taking the time to comment and help with this.

    Brian

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Although we think sIde splitting is silly, as Robin mentions, it was done in the USA. If you were doing an average of.Billboard and Cashbox in the 60s would you combine the sides just because you thought it was 'better' or be true to the actual charts?
    Last edited by Splodj; Wed September 1, 2021, 04:58.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by setg1 View Post
    Anyone that bought the record would have got both sides, so separating them doesn't make sense (I have no idea why NME and RM thought it did)...
    It was all down to the way they collected the information. The vast majority of the dealers would report only one side of the record, always the higher placed record. But some dealers reported the other side. I don't think any dealer reported both sides to the paper. It was then up to the paper's staff to make up the chart. It might have been down to the tradition of the sheet music chart to list both songs. Or it could be that the editor and his team thought it was best to report the facts as presented to them from the dealer returns. Neither of the two charts at this point were connected to the music industry itself. Plus they were not taken seriously by that body at this point.
    Remember each dealer was simply reporting what they thought was popular. So the dealers putting in the other side might have had more people asking for that side. Though it might have been low in the charts produced, the record could have been the top of those dealer charts. It should also be noted that people had or tended to ask for records. Since they were 78's and fragile. You didn't pick up a record from the shelves and hand it to the shop assistant till years later.
    We have no people currently on record from a record shop saying how they made up the list of best sellers to report to the papers. For all we know it could have been somebody making a note of how many people asked for the records each week. We tend to assume the shops were going on how much stock they were selling. But was that the case?

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Brian, I appreciate all your deep thinking on resolving this type of A-side B-side thing. It can be loony, ha. But, if it were me, I would revert to my preferred philosophy of "don't try and interpret things, just present things as they were."

    Joel Whitburn was inconsistent in his Billboard books for the charts after Nov 1969. Depending on the book (Top Pops or Pop Annual), and the edition, he would change his methodology of treating B-sides. Example, The Beatles "For You Blue" (B-side to "The Long And Winding Road") made it to #1 on Billboard as the B-side. But depending on the book/edition, Joel either places it with TLAWR at #1, or he doesn't show it at all, or he denotes it as a "tag" with no chart number. I just wish he would stop messing about, and show it as it was on the chart. I.e., don't think of it as a record, or a side, but rather as a chart listing. Or Joel, do us a favor and don't do us any favors, ha. Just give us the records/sides/whatever as they were as listed on the charts. "Come Together/Something" is another ball of wax, ugh.

    Likewise here, if NME and RM are splitting the sides, then that's what I would want to see, the data as it was without interpretation or fixing. When different charts do it differently, I would go with the majority. If it's equally split where one chart lists A + B together, the other chart splits them, that would be when a decision needs to be made. In that case, I'd probably just go with combining the sides as one listing.

    If I recall correctly, I think NME was doing both in the late 50s/early 60s, depending on what happened when a record first came out. Sometimes a record debuted on the chart as an A/B. Other times only the A-side was the hit, then a few weeks later the B-side appeared separately as well, and both were listed separately for the rest of their runs.

    So I would just take it week by week, don't worry about consistency year to year, or records vs. sides, just keep it simple without straining your brain, and present the data as it was. Or as close as possible to what it was.

    Rock on...

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I agree there is not a perfect solution. But I've always thought the spirit of the UAC was to be an average of the charts as they were at the time, not as we would have liked them to be. Particularly when what we would really like - i.e. an accurate combined position - is not possible.

    Leave a comment:


  • setg1
    replied
    I think excluding the lower-placed side as you've done is the right choice. If we look at the previous chart, putting Johnnie Ray's version of "Hey There" at #16 would just disadvantage nine records, and it still wouldn't give the higher-placed side any advantage. Anyone that bought the record would have got both sides, so separating them doesn't make sense (I have no idea why NME and RM thought it did)...

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    It's the age old argument you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't in regard to these early split sides. I seriously considered all options on this but finally decided to go with considering records rather than songs, a) for consistency with later years, b) using different systems becomes confusing and complicates the chart, and, c) allowing both sides to chart disadvantages other record chart positions and other records ability to chart when every record is considered as one unit.

    That said, the disadvantage is that excluding the lower placed split side may, and I say may, disadvantage a higher chart placement with no way of compensating for that being available at this early time.

    BUT it's early days and it can be easily changed at this early stage. Give me a few more comments guys as to which system you believe is fairer in retrospect to this era. If necessary I can then easily recalculate the above two charts and proceed with greater confidence the methodology is robust.

    Brian

    Leave a comment:

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