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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    The way that you present it is a great way of demonstrating that they were wrong - you can see at a glance.

    That Scottish Soldier marched on 16 weeks ago. He's retreated a few times, but not advanced far.
    I too really like the fact you can see all charts lined up against each other for the first time. I don't think you can see this anywhere else. Yeah in this format it does highlight obvious chart differences and interesting patterns.

    Scottish Soldier. It is another one of those records that was obviously selling well here north of the border. But still awful in my opinion.
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

    Comment


    • Wild In The Country / I Feel So Bad - Elvis Presley
      No. 1 in only NME even with split sides - "I feel so bad" at no. 21 in NME.

      Michael - The Highwaymen and Michael Row The Boat - Lonnie Donegan
      Are these the same song?

      Kon-Tiki - The Shadows
      One of my favourite Shadows tracks - should have been number one.

      A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart
      A great patriotic Scottish song - I'm sure followers of the SNP adore it!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
        Wild In The Country / I Feel So Bad - Elvis Presley
        No. 1 in only NME even with split sides - "I feel so bad" at no. 21 in NME.

        Michael - The Highwaymen and Michael Row The Boat - Lonnie Donegan
        Are these the same song?

        Kon-Tiki - The Shadows
        One of my favourite Shadows tracks - should have been number one.

        A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart
        A great patriotic Scottish song - I'm sure followers of the SNP adore it!
        The Michael songs are the same song. Ever one to get a credit, the vinyl states “New Words and New Music Lonnie Donegan”, but it is the same tune. It’s also faster and more up tempo.
        http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
        Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

          I too really like the fact you can see all charts lined up against each other for the first time. I don't think you can see this anywhere else. Yeah in this format it does highlight obvious chart differences and interesting patterns.

          Scottish Soldier. It is another one of those records that was obviously selling well here north of the border. But still awful in my opinion.
          Early 1963 the RR chart stated it was “independently audited”. One wonders if that was to try and head of those who where (rightly!) saying the RR chart was not a good indicator of sales. In 1961 RR was trying to be a trade paper, selling to the record store owner. They had a pull out page to display the chart in the shop, which would encourage people to buy music in that chart. If we assume they are trying to gather prominence within the trade then being out of step with what is actually selling isn’t a good move.... purely from a sales of your newspaper point of view!
          http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
          Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

          Comment


          • The Wikipedia article on 'Michael Row The Boat Ashore' is a very interesting read.

            The song dates from the American Civil War and there have been many variations on the lyrics.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michae...he_Boat_Ashore

            Comment


            • This week Disc reported that 'Walking Back To Happiness' had in excess of 200,000 advance orders. As it did not enter the NME chart at number one, I take this as a further indication that NME did not use advance orders - at least at this time.

              I notice that Disc also specified that their charts were for the week ending the previous Saturday. I presume the Wednesday date on the NME charts represents the publication date as it doesn't say 'week ending'.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                This week Disc reported that 'Walking Back To Happiness' had in excess of 200,000 advance orders. As it did not enter the NME chart at number one, I take this as a further indication that NME did not use advance orders - at least at this time.

                I notice that Disc also specified that their charts were for the week ending the previous Saturday. I presume the Wednesday date on the NME charts represents the publication date as it doesn't say 'week ending'.
                I too believe that NME only used advance orders when The Beatles came on board and not before. Yeah the Wednesday date in NME was the publication date.
                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                Comment


                • The playlist from Alan Freeman’s first POTP ...

                  NEW RELEASES
                  Granada – Frank Sinatra
                  Walkin’ Back to Happiness – Helen Shapiro
                  Hard Hearted Hannah - The Temperance Seven
                  Wild Wind – John Leyton
                  Sabre Dance – King Brothers
                  Without You – Johnny Tillotson
                  Valley of the Sioux - The Outlaws
                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Ghost Train - Bert Weedon
                  Gonna Build a Mountain - Matt Monro
                  Who Put the Bomp - Viscounts
                  Frankie and Johnnie – Brook Benton
                  Lonely Street – Clarence Frogman Henry
                  Big Cold Wind - Pat Boone
                  School Is Out - Gary U.S. Bonds
                  One More Time - Sammy Davis Junior


                  SELECTION FROM THE TOP 20
                  8 (17) Get Lost – Eden Kane
                  11 (15) Together– Connie Francis
                  7 (18) Jealousy – Billy Fury
                  4 (4) Kon Tiki – Shadows
                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  18 (-) You’ll Answer to Me – Cleo Laine
                  6 (13) Michael Row the Boat – Highwaymen
                  3 (2) You Don’t Know – Helen Shapiro
                  2 (3) Wild In the Country – Elvis Presley
                  1 (1) Johnny Remember Me – John Leyton

                  Comment


                  • Graham76man
                    Graham76man commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Having a playlist meant the BBC didn't have to play the risky records and the none chart format avoided the USA top 40 style which the BBC hated.

                • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                  There is something very wrong more than usual at RR this week. They place Shirley Bassey at #1 while the disc is at #5 in ALL other four charts. 300 stores against 30. There is more than lagging behind in days of sale at work here. It is just out and out incorrect and it is considered an 'official' #1
                  If you think that's bad all the other charts have the wrong number one too! For the week ending 16, 23 and 30 it was Sam Cook - Cupid top!

                  But Cupid was always the bad guy shooting a black arrow (so they reject you) at the person that you like and gold one at you for you to fall in love with them!
                  Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                    This week Disc reported that 'Walking Back To Happiness' had in excess of 200,000 advance orders. As it did not enter the NME chart at number one, I take this as a further indication that NME did not use advance orders - at least at this time.
                    As shown here,



                    Comment


                    • While RR does have them in the wrong order, it does agree on the top 20. In fact the Top 20 of all the charts are found in the Top 21 of the Ultimate chart which I think is a first! There have been a few instances where the Top 22 Ultimate encompassed all the Top 20s, but this is the first time its the top 21 (and that the top 20 RR has agreed with the Top 20)!
                      Last edited by braindeadpj; Sun February 21, 2021, 20:42.

                      Comment


                      • G - The POTP chart playlist was driven by formula and entirely predictable. They did not exclude any record until 1969.

                        It was because of needletime restrictions that they had so many New Releases, as they were exempt.

                        Comment


                        • Graham76man
                          Graham76man commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Every record at the BBC had to be approved. Many had labels attached saying things like not to be played. Or not for daytime etc. That's why the BBC called it "Pick" they could select a record from the chart. Although records were on a formula bases and new records could be played due to them not adding to the time allowed to discs, the pick system did get rid of a chart record that might have NOT met the BBC criteria

                      • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
                        As shown here,
                        Then in Disc's 13-Jan-62 lead story, a British artist does even better than Elvis!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Graham76man View Post

                          If you think that's bad all the other charts have the wrong number one too! For the week ending 16, 23 and 30 it was Sam Cooke - Cupid top!
                          There was not even a remote chance Sam Cook was #1. Maybe in someone's personal chart but not factually.
                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                          Comment


                          • Graham76man
                            Graham76man commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Since the Real Chart is based on ALL shops and actual sales, not a point based system based on what some shop says is the top ten seller. Or a combination of these charts made up by the BBC or anyone else. Plus it says it was number one for several weeks - then you are completely wrong. Don't forget that none of these charts include any of the Embassy label records some of which according to the same papers you use to make up these charts outsold the original artists. So NEVER tell me that a record can not be number one, unless you have an entire list of the records sold of the records that week. So the charts published at the time do not reflect the entire country. We know from the Record Mirror survey that it's retailers only touched some parts of the UK and many were London area shops. None of these charts you use are based on the size of a store or turnover. And you have only one chart that uses more than 100 stores. It wouldn't take much more shops to put any of the top ten records at the top.

                        • Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 30th 1961


                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 30th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
                          Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
                          Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                          1 1 Johnny Remember Me - John Leyton 1 1 2 1 1 1 9840
                          4 2 Kon-Tiki - The Shadows 2 3 1 2 2 4 9490
                          2 3 Wild In The Country / I Feel So Bad - Elvis Presley 3= 2 3 4 6 5 9000
                          3 4 You Don't Know - Helen Shapiro 5 6 5 3 4 3 8830
                          6 5 Michael - The Highwaymen 3= 4 4 5 3 7 8760
                          7 6 Jealousy - Billy Fury 6 5 6 6 5 6 8380
                          5 7 Reach For The Stars / Climb Ev'ry Mountain - Shirley Bassey 7 7 8 7 8 2 7960
                          9 8 Get Lost - Eden Kane 8 8 7 8 7 12 7580
                          14 9 Hats Off To Larry - Del Shannon 9 9 9 12 9 13 6810
                          12 10 Together - Connie Francis 11= 11 10 10 11 10 6800
                          19 11 You'll Answer To Me - Cleo Laine 11= 9 11 11 12 8 6800
                          8 12 Michael Row The Boat / Lumbered - Lonnie Donegan 10 12 12 9 10 11 6730
                          10 13 Cupid - Sam Cooke 14 14 14 16 13 9 5590
                          NEW 14 Walkin' Back To Happiness - Helen Shapiro 13 13 13 13 14 26 5500
                          13 15 Ain't Gonna Wash For A Week - The Brook Brothers 15 19 18 14 15 17 4830
                          NEW 16 Granada - Frank Sinatra 16 15 16 18 17 4310
                          15 17 That's My Home - Mr. Acker Bilk 17 18 19 19 16 16 4280
                          16 18 Halfway To Paradise - Billy Fury 24 17 17 14 3450
                          21 19 Sea Of Heartbreak - Don Gibson 18 16 15 19 20 3090
                          11 20 Well I Ask You - Eden Kane 19 29 15 15 2400
                          18 21 How Many Tears - Bobby Vee 21 18 18 1840
                          NEW 22 Sucu Sucu - Laurie Johnson 20 17 20 1670
                          17 23 Romeo - Petula Clark 20 21 1510
                          20 24 Quarter To Three - The U.S. Bonds 23 19 1000
                          NEW 25 Muskrat - The Everly Brothers 20 880
                          25 26 I'm Gonna Knock On Your Door - Eddie Hodges 30 20 740
                          27 27 Wheels Cha Cha - Joe Loss 26 22 670
                          24 28 Breakaway - The Springfields 24 560
                          22 29 Say It With Flowers - Dorothy Squires and Russ Conway 28 23 480
                          NEW 30 Amor - Ben E. King 27 320
                          I Feel So Bad - Elvis Presley 22
                          Heart And Soul - Jan and Dean 24 210
                          Who Put The Bomp - The Viscounts 25 180
                          Cryin' - Roy Orbison 27 120
                          Marcheta - Karl Denver 28 90
                          You Always Hurt The One You Love - Clarence 'Frogman' Henry 29 60
                          Drivin' Home - Duane Eddy 30 30
                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                          Comment


                          • It's RM who is out of step this week placing The Shadows at #1 with what is another excellent single from them.
                            Elvis' run of number one singles comes to end as he is denied this time around.
                            Helen Shapiro has the week's highest new entry at #14 so advance sales obviously not counted as her highest placing on any chart is #13.
                            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                            Comment


                            • Yes I imagine if you had sales of over 200,000 that would put you safely at number one. So it looks like the shops had over-estimated initial demand, or perhaps the advance order figure itself had been spun upwards by Columbia for PR purposes.

                              I wouldn't be surprised if the Shadows were coming close to Leyton in sales, so find the RM deviation more understandable than the RR one last week.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                                I too believe that NME only used advance orders when The Beatles came on board and not before.
                                I think there is a strong case for them doing it with Little Red Rooster. It was NMEs surprise entry of this at number one that prompted The Sun to do their survey which concluded it "impossible" to have achieved this on sales. This may also have been the origin of the idea that NME used advanced orders, although The Sun did not explicitly draw that conclusion.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                                  Yes I imagine if you had sales of over 200,000 that would put you safely at number one. So it looks like the shops had over-estimated initial demand, or perhaps the advance order figure itself had been spun upwards by Columbia for PR purposes.

                                  I wouldn't be surprised if the Shadows were coming close to Leyton in sales, so find the RM deviation more understandable than the RR one last week.
                                  Melody Maker 110 shops each only needed to sell about 1,818 to clear the 200,000 figure.
                                  As you constantly quote the Sun article, I will too and mention the 8,000 shops it says for the total shops in the UK. If you divide the order number by that figure, each shop needs sell 25 copies. That would hardly make a dent in any survey of using lesser numbers.
                                  By the way Helen only went in a number nine that same week and didn't top the chart, while next week.

                                  I keep saying this, but it doesn't seem to sink in. The papers got a list of say 10 records or more from the shops. Unless someone at the NME asked each shop "did you actually sell these records that week?" There's no way that they could have told if a shop had put in what somebody had ordered or what was sold that week. And as the release date seems to be confirmed as being that week of every record thought to have advanced orders, there's no-way of telling it either.
                                  Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                  Comment


                                  • I agree that the 'advanced order' info did not go straight to the compliers from the shops, if that is what you are saying. It came via the record companies, being the number of records the shops wanted to be supplied with.

                                    That is why I reckon the only way 'including advance orders' could operate was as a number one override, because you cannot add record units to points to determine a lesser position. It was a case of advance orders being so large that it was 'bound' to be number one, so lets ensure we are ahead of the game by putting it straight there.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Graham76man View Post

                                      As you constantly quote the Sun article, I will too

                                      I keep saying this, but it doesn't seem to sink in.
                                      G, do you always have to be so nippy in some of your responses. I've noticed it in response to some of my posts and I've noticed Splodj seems to get the same from you, like above response.

                                      We are all here to enjoy, debate, and add our collective knowledge for the benefit of others and to enjoy this and other threads. I respect your knowledge base and some of the valid points you make and enjoy your input but the benefit of this is spoilt by the tone of your comments at times. It would be much more enjoyable if you just left the sarcastic bits out.
                                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                      Comment


                                      • Graham76man
                                        Graham76man commented
                                        Editing a comment
                                        "The Definitive Chart Of The Fifties And Sixties" is pretentious to say the least. Not at least the ones done at the time! Some might object to that if the people that did them were around.
                                        And if you knew who I have been, you would know that sarcasm could have been my middle name. But there's more heaven than meets the eye my dear Mr Tibbs.

                                    • Strange to say that anyway because that particular point had sunk in!!
                                      Last edited by Splodj; Mon February 22, 2021, 16:11.

                                      Comment


                                      • Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 7th 1961
                                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 7th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
                                        Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
                                        Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                        5 1 Michael - The Highwaymen 1 1 1 2 1 3 9730
                                        2 2 Kon-Tiki - The Shadows 2 6 4 1 2 1 9270
                                        3 3 Wild In The Country / I Feel So Bad - Elvis Presley 4= 2 2 4 7 6 8980
                                        1 4 Johnny Remember Me - John Leyton 3 5 5 3 3 4 8930
                                        6 5 Jealousy - Billy Fury 4= 4 6 5 4 2 8740
                                        14 6 Walkin' Back To Happiness - Helen Shapiro 6 2 3 7 5 12 8510
                                        11 7 You'll Answer To Me - Cleo Laine 8 7 7 10 9 7 7490
                                        8 8 Get Lost - Eden Kane 7 8 12 8 6 10 7390
                                        4 9 You Don't Know - Helen Shapiro 9 11 10 6 12 11 7160
                                        9 10 Hats Off To Larry - Del Shannon 10 9 13 12 11 9 6590
                                        10 11 Together - Connie Francis 11 15 11 11 8 8 6520
                                        7 12 Reach For The Stars / Climb Ev'ry Mountain - Shirley Bassey 13 14 14 9 13 5 6480
                                        NEW 13 Wild Wind - John Leyton 12 13 8 13 10 25 6030
                                        22 14 Sucu Sucu - Laurie Johnson 14 10 9 14 14 26 5870
                                        16 15 Granada - Frank Sinatra 15 11 15 16 16 17 5380
                                        12 16 Michael Row The Boat / Lumbered - Lonnie Donegan 16 16 17 15 15 13 5140
                                        25 17 Muskrat - The Everly Brothers 17 18 16 18 17 29 4130
                                        NEW 18 Hard Hearted Hannah / Chilli Bom-Bom - The Temperance Seven 18 19 19 17 3220
                                        15 19 Ain't Gonna Was For A Week - The Brook Brothers 19 24 20 18 16 2870
                                        19 20 Sea Of Heartbreak - Don Gibson 22 20 20 14 2440
                                        20 21 Well I Ask You - Eden Kane 23 19 19 2320
                                        17 22 That's My Home - Mr. Acker Bilk 20 19 15 1960
                                        NEW 23 Bless You - Tony Orlando 20 17 18 1900
                                        13 24 Cupid - Sam Cooke 21 18 1190
                                        27 25 Wheels Cha Cha - Joe Loss 26 21 700
                                        30 26 Amor - Ben E. King 25 480
                                        21 27 How Many Tears - Bobby Vee 20 330
                                        26 28 I'm Gonna Knock On Your Door - Eddie Hodges 27 320
                                        18 29 Half Way To Paradise - Billy Fury 22 270
                                        28 30 Breakaway - The Springfields 28 240
                                        Quarter To Three - The U.S. Bonds 23 240
                                        Who Put The Bomp - The Viscounts 24 210
                                        Say It With Flowers - Dorothy Squires and Russ Conway 30 27 200
                                        Tribute To Buddy Holly - Mike Berry 29 160
                                        Cryin' - Roy Orbison 28 90
                                        Marcheta - Karl Denver 30 30
                                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                        Comment


                                        • The Highwaymen win the battle with Michael capturing #1 this week.
                                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                          Comment


                                          • Another maverick RR position - Billy Fury at 2.

                                            On 7-Jan-62 POTP became a stand alone show again and entered into its 'golden age' under Freeman. (Although Jacobs did turn up again like a bad penny later in the year.) From the chart they played the new entries and the Top 10. There was no BBC discretion about it, the 'pick' had already been done in the chart compilation.

                                            Comment

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