The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[MrTibbs]

Agreed. It's a pity the BBC producers don't have the same bottle today on POTP instead of surrendering to the whims of others.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending November 11th 1961

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending November 11th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
2	1	His Latest Flame / Little Sister - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	2	1	1	9790
1	2	Walkin' Back To Happiness - Helen Shapiro					2	2	2	1	2	2	9680
3	3	When The Girl In Your Arms Is The Girl In Your Heart / Got A Funny Feeling - Cliff Richard					3	5	3	3	3	3	9080
6	4	Big Bad John - Jimmy Dean					4	4	5	4	4	4	8850
13	5	Take Good Care Of My Baby - Bobby Vee					5	3	4	6	6	13	8400
5	6	Hit The Road Jack - Ray Charles					6	6	7	5	5	6	8350
7	7	Take Five - Dave Brubeck					7	7	6	7	7	8	7950
14	8	The Time Has Come - Adam Faith					8	8	8	9	9	7	7460
4	9	Wild Wind - John Leyton					10	14	9	8	8	5	7140
8	10	Mexicali Rose - Karl Denver					9	9	11	10	10	9	6980
10	11	Bless You - Tony Orlando					11	11	10	11	11	10	6690
9	12	Sucu Sucu - Laurie Johnson					12	10	12	13	12	12	6320
11	13	You'll Answer To Me - Cleo Laine					14	18	14	12	14	11	5600
17	14	Let's Get Together - Hayley Mills					15	15	13	14	16	21	5280
12	15	Michael - The Highwaymen					17	20	16	16	13	15	4810
25	16	Moon River - Danny Williams					16	13	19	15	20	23	4710
16	17	My Boomerang Won't Come Back - Charlie Drake					18	16	15	19	17	16	4630
15	18	You Must Have Been A Beautiful Baby - Bobby Darin					13	12		17	15	14	4370
28	19	Runaround Sue - Dion					19	19	20	20	19	20	3760
18	20	Kon-Tiki - The Shadows						26		18		19	2190
27	21	I'm A Moody Guy - Shane Fenton and The Fentones						23			18	22	1560
21	22	You Don't Know What You've Got - Ral Donner						25	18			30	1290
NEW	23	Tower Of Strength - Frankie Vaughan					20	17					1120
19	24	Jealousy - Billy Fury						24				18	950
NEW	25	Creole Jazz / Stars And Stripes - Mr. Acker Bilk							17				840
22	26	Sucu Sucu - Nina and Frederick						22				29	780
20	27	Hats Off To Larry - Del Shannon										17	420
NEW	28	This Time - Troy Shondell						27					320
NEW	29	Tomorrow's Clown - Marty Wilde						28					240
RE	30	Sea Of Heartbreak - Don Gibson										24	210
		Little Sister - Elvis Presley						21
		Tribute To Buddy Holly - Mike Berry										25	180
		Hey Look Me Over - Ronnie Hilton						29					160
		Together - Connie Francis										26	150
		Cryin' - Roy Orbison										27	120
		Granada - Frank Sinatra										28	90
		Midnight In Moscow - Kenny Ball						30					80

[MrTibbs]

Danny Williams and Frankie Vaughan will eventually battle for the Christmas #1

Tony Orlando will have to wait until 1970 USA and 1971 UK for greater success.

[Splodj]

Strange that 'Please Mr Postman' never made the UK charts at this time, either by The Marvelettes or a domestic cover artist. Of course the Beatles put it into their live set, and it was one of 3 songs in their radio debut on 8-Mar-62 (only 4 months away!).

[MrTibbs]

Strange that 'Please Mr Postman' never made the UK charts at this time, either by The Marvelettes or a domestic cover artist. Of course the Beatles put it into their live set, and it was one of 3 songs in their radio debut on 8-Mar-62 (only 4 months away!).

Yip and that is just one of many records that should have charted here and missed out. The great British public were too busy buying and charting rubbish like Hayley Mills. Criminal.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending November 18th 1961

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending November 18th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	His Latest Flame / Little Sister - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	1	9900
2	2	Walkin' Back To Happiness - Helen Shapiro					2	4	2	2	2	2	9410
5	3	Take Good Care Of My Baby - Bobby Vee					3	2	3	3	4	7	9150
4	4	Big Bad John - Jimmy Dean					4	3	4	4	3	3	9070
3	5	When The Girl In Your Arms Is The Girl In Your Heart / Got A Funny Feeling - Cliff Richard					5	6	5	5	5	4	8530
8	6	The Time Has Come - Adam Faith					6	5	6	6	6	5	8360
7	7	Take Five - Dave Brubeck					7	8	7	7	7	6	7870
6	8	Hit The Road Jack - Ray Charles					8	7	8	8	8	13	7520
16	9	Moon River - Danny Williams					9	10	9	10	9	17	6830
23	10	Tower Of Strength - Frankie Vaughan					10	9	10	11	10	18	6660
10	11	Mexicali Rose - Karl Denver					11	14	16	12	12	11	5900
11	12	Bless You - Tony Orlando					13	13	15	13	15	9	5840
9	13	Wild Wind - John Leyton					15	21	13	9	16	8	5740
NEW	14	The Savage - The Shadows					12	14	12	14	13	26	5420
19	15	Runaround Sue - Dion					16	10	20	15	17	16	5250
12	16	Sucu Sucu - Laurie Johnson					14	12	18	19	11	10	5250
13	17	You'll Answer To Me - Cleo Laine					18	19	17	20	14	12	4430
18	18	You Must Have Been A Beautiful Baby - Bobby Darin					17	16		16	20	15	3880
NEW	19	Midnight In Moscow - Kenny Ball					19	17	14	17		27	3800
14	20	Let's Get Together - Hayley Mills					20	18	11		18	19	3250
15	21	Michael - The Highwaymen								18	19	20	2360
17	22	My Boomering Won't Come Back - Charlie Drake						23				14	1150
NEW	23	Runaround Sue - Doug Sheldon						19					960
28	24	This Time - Troy Shondell						22				25	900
21	25	I'm A Moody Guy - Shane Fenton and The Fentones						24				24	770
NEW	26	Married - The Brook Brothers							19				720
27	27	Hats Off To Larry - Del Shannon						26				23	640
NEW	28	Let True Love Begin - Nat King Cole						25					480
24	29	Jealousy - Billy Fury										21	300
25	30	Creole Jazz / Stars And Stripes - Mr. Acker Bilk										22	270
		Little Sister - Elvis Presley						27
		Everlovin' - Ricky Nelson						28					240
		Tomorrow's Clown - Marty Wilde						28					240
		Sea Of Heartbreak - Don Gibson										28	90
		Kon-Tiki - The Shadows						30					80
		Together - Connie Francis										29	60
		You Don't Know What You've Got - Ral Donner										30	30

[Splodj]

There was a lot of promotion in the music press for the 'Tower of Strength' by Paul Raven (now jailed of course) which EMI had reportedly spent more on than any previous pop record production with its lush orchestration. But the Frankie Vaughan version beat both Raven and the original.

Meanwhile his fellow future glam rocker Shane Fenton does make the charts.

[MrTibbs]

I always thought Frankie Vaughan's version was better than Gene McDaniel's US original which was unusual for a British cover to be the better version. Paul Raven's version paled in comparison too

Shane later to be Alvin Stardust of course.

[MrTibbs]

Bobby Vee and Neil Sedaka did some of the classic pop songs from the early sixties that stood the test of time, well composed melodic tunes, with good lyrics to sing along with. How things have changed.

[braindeadpj]

Minor typo in this weeks chart (18/11/1961). Troy Shondell was at 28 and not 29 in the 11/11/1961 chart.

[MrTibbs]

Thanks brain. Corrected

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending November 25th 1961

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending November 25th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	His Latest Flame / Little Sister - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	1	9900
3	2	Take Good Care Of My Baby - Bobby Vee					2	2	3	2	2	5	9420
4	3	Big Bad John - Jimmy Dean					3	4	2	3	3	2	9250
2	4	Walkin' Back To Happiness - Helen Shapiro					4	5	7	4	4	3	8680
10	5	Tower Of Strength - Frankie Vaughan					5	3	4	6	7	7	8530
6	6	The Time Has Come - Adam Faith					6	7	5	5	5	4	8450
9	7	Moon River - Danny Williams					7	6	6	7	6	8	8080
7	8	Take Five - Dave Brubeck					8	8	8	9	8	9	7450
5	9	When The Girl In Your Arms Is The Girl In Your Heart / Got A Funny Feeling - Cliff Richard					10	10	11	8	10	6	7210
14	10	The Savage - The Shadows					9	9	9	10	9	13	7030
8	11	Hit The Road Jack - Ray Charles					12	13	13	11	11	10	6350
15	12	Runaround Sue - Dion					11	11	12	12	12	15	6260
19	13	Midnight In Moscow - Kenny Ball					13	11	10	13	13	21	6040
11	14	Mexicali Rose - Karl Denver					15	15	14	16	17	14	5160
16	15	Sucu Sucu - Laurie Johnson					14	14	16	17	14	16	5100
NEW	16	I'll Get By - Shirley Bassey					16	16	15	14			4030
13	17	Wild Wind - John Leyton					17	23		15	15	12	3770
12	18	Bless You - Tony Orlando						21	19	20		11	3330
26	19	Married - The Brook Brothers							17	19			2160
18	20	You Must Have Been A Beautiful Baby - Bobby Darin					20	18			20	18	1980
20	21	Let's Get Together - Hayley Mills					19	22			16	17	1890
25	22	I'm A Moody Guy - Shane Fenton and The Fentones					18	19			18	24	1820
NEW	23	Everlovin' - Ricky Nelson						29		18			1590
22	24	My Boomering Won't Come Back - Charlie Drake						20				20	1210
NEW	25	Moon River - Henry Mancini						17					1120
24	26	This Time - Troy Shondell						24				23	800
NEW	27	Fool No 1 - Brenda Lee							18				780
NEW	28	My Friend The Sea - Petula Clark							20				660
30	29	Creole Jazz / Stars And Stripes - Mr. Acker Bilk						25				26	630
17	30	You'll Answer To Me - Cleo Laine						28				19	600
		You're The Only Good Thing - Jim Reeves									19		600
		Let True Love Begin - Nat King Cole						25				29	540
		Runaround Sue - Doug Sheldon						27					320
		Michael - The Highwaymen										22	270
		Sucu Sucu - Nina and Frederick						30				25	260
		Hats Off To Larry - Del Shannon										27	120
		Bambino - The Springfields										28	90
		September In The Rain - Dinah Washington						30					80
		Jealousy - Billy Fury										30	30

[Splodj]

Recordings of POTP from the Trad Tavern period are extremely rare, but here is one from this week’s show ...
https://www.mixcloud.com/terry-obrien2/pick-of-the-pops-1961-11-25-alan-freeman-33-mins-from-the-live-trad-tavern-show/

PS – RRs low placing of Bobby Vee each week looks like they have something against him!

[MrTibbs]

[QUOTE=Splodj

PS – RRs low placing of Bobby Vee each week looks like they have something against him![/QUOTE]

I think that's a really valid point. Looking back the weeks since Bobby Vee charted with Take Good Care RR has consistently placed it considerably lower than every other chart. It really is a great injustice.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 2nd 1961

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 2nd 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	His Latest Flame / Little Sister - Elvis Presley*					2	4	2	1	1	1	9600
2	2	Take Good Care Of My Baby - Bobby Vee					1	1	1	2	2	5	9620
5	3	Tower Of Strength - Frankie Vaughan					3	1	4	3	4	2	9320
3	4	Big Bad John - Jimmy Dean					4	5	3	4	3	3	8970
7	5	Moon River - Danny Williams					5	3	5	5	5	6	8710
6	6	The Time Has Come - Adam Faith					6=	6	6	6	8	7	8120
4	7	Walkin' Back To Happiness - Helen Shapiro					6=	7	7	7	6	4	8060
8	8	Take Five - Dave Brubeck					8	8	8	9	9	9	7400
10	9	The Savage - The Shadows					9	12	9	8	7	10	7200
9	10	When The Girl In Your Arms Is The Girl In Your Heart / Got A Funny Feeling - Cliff Richard					11=	13	11	10	11	8	6640
13	11	Midnight In Moscow - Kenny Ball					10	9	12	11	12	13	6590
12	12	Runaround Sue - Dion					11=	11	13	13	10	11	6310
16	13	I'll Get By - Shirley Bassey					13	10	10	12	15	16	6280
11	14	Hit The Road Jack - Ray Charles					14	14	15	14	13	12	5660
14	15	Mexicali Rose - Karl Denver					15	15	16	15	16	14	5200
21	16	Let's Get Together - Hayley Mills					17	19		17	18	21	3450
20	17	You Must Have Been A Beatiful Baby - Bobby Darin					18	16		18		19	2990
NEW	18	Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk						22	18	19			2820
26	19	This Time - Troy Shondell					20=	17	14			23	2380
15	20	Sucu Sucu - Laurie Johnson					16	18			14	15	2370
28	21	My Friend The Sea - Petula Clark					19	25		16		25	2310
19	22	Married - The Brook Brothers							19	20			1930
22	23	I'm A Moody Guy - Shane Fenton and The Fentones					20=	23			17	24	1550
NEW	24	You're The Only Good Thing - Jim Reeves						24			19	22	1430
17	25	Wild Wind - John Leyton									20	17	970
25	26	Moon River - Henry Mancini						20					880
NEW	26	Don't Bring Lulu - Dorothy Provine						20					880
NEW	28	September In The Rain - Dinah Washington							17				840
27	29	Fool No 1 - Brenda Lee							20				660
18	30	Bless You - Tony Orlando						28				20	570
		* 3 Point Rule applied
		I Cried For You - Ricky Stevens						25					480
		You'll Answer To Me - Cleo Laine										18	390
		Helen (EP) - Helen Shapiro						27					320
		Charleston - The Temperance Seven						29					160
		My Boomerang Won't Come Back - Charlie Drake										26	150
		Susu Sucu - Nina and Frederick										27	120
		Creole Jazz / Stars And Stripes - Mr. Acker Bilk										28	90
		Jeannie Jeannie Jeannie - Eddie Cochran						30					80
		Let True Love Begin - Nat King Cole										29	60
		I Love How You Love Me - Jimmy Crawford										30	30

[MrTibbs]

A future monster record debuts this week, Mr. Acker Bilks' Stranger On The Shore. Its chart longevity will dwarf anything that has gone before.

[Robbie]

The chart run of 'Stranger On The Shore' is amazing. Its chart longevity not only dwarfs anything that had gone before but also, at least until the digital era, most of what came afterwards.

[Graham76man]

I think you are forgetting Frank and My Way which unlike Acker is still selling these days.

[Robbie]

Test

[Splodj]

RR bias against Bobbie Vee is preventing him from being number one in the Ultimate.

A similar thing will happen with Acker. On the week 'Stranger on the shore' goes to number one on the others it falls back to 8 in RR. Although the 3 point rule may save it in the Ultimate. RR then have it spring back to number 2 for 3 straight weeks, but it is too late to be top because of Cliff's entry at number one.

The BBC may have thought that on both occasions they were lucky not to be including RR.

[MrTibbs]

RR bias against Bobbie Vee is preventing him from being number one in the Ultimate.

A similar thing will happen with Acker. On the week 'Stranger on the shore' goes to number one on the others it falls back to 8 in RR. Although the 3 point rule may save it in the Ultimate. RR then have it spring back to number 2 for 3 straight weeks, but it is too late to be top because of Cliff's entry at number one.

The BBC may have thought that on both occasions they were lucky not to be including RR.

As you know I work ahead to ensure I can post a new chart every day, so I am able to give you some immediate confirmation and indeed reassurance on this. On 6th January 1962 Mr. Acker Bilk will succeed in achieving #1 status despite RR placing him at #8 that week.
He does not even need the 3 point rule as he will achieve it outright on 9690 points with nearest competitor Danny Williams on 9390.
Acker that week holds #1 on all other 4 charts which comfortably throws out the RR outlier.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 6th 1962								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
3	1	Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk					1	1	1	1	1	8	9690
1	2	Moon River - Danny Williams					2=	2	2	3	4	1	9390

But yes the following week he will lose out to Cliff entering at No 1.

[Splodj]

Thanks Brian. On reflection I think Acker is a clearer cut case than Bobby. Did he sneak in while Elvis was on the wane? Difficult to tell.

NME doesn't help because its positions are also out of kilter with the consensus. However their 'ahead of the game' reputation can explain their differences - with Vaughan and Williams (the risers) being higher and Presley and Dean (the fallers) being lower. Whereas the 'behind the game' reputation of RR cannot really explain Vee at 5.

[MrTibbs]

Ironically Acker was in the same position as many of The Beatles singles later, #1 in all charts except RR, surprise surprise.

With regard to Bobby Vee, its the same situation as The Temperance Seven, Helen Shapiro, The Monkees, Barry Ryan to name a few among others, all qualified for #1 on points but lost out in the 3 point rule. For these records I'm still torn as to what was right, maybe what I should have done at the start of this is to go by points entirely as the fairer method with the only exception being where a record is #1 in ALL charts except one, and discount the single outlier.

[Splodj]

That was the BBC rule effectively - odd-one-out rather than majority. But as you set out the points it is easy to see on your charts which has the most anyway. I think it is telling that even with RR having it at 5 Vee gets most points (just).

The BBC did not only invoke their rule for the Beatles up to 'Help'. They also used it for 'House of the RIsing Sun' and 'The Last Time', when in both cases RR had them at number 6. With the Beatles, the rule stopped RR preventing the records entering at number one. With the other two, the rule stopped RR preventing the records climb to number one after entering.

[Robbie]

Graham76man commented
Today, 11:21

I think you are forgetting Frank and My Way which unlike Acker is still selling these days.

I posted "The chart run of 'Stranger On The Shore' is amazing. Its chart longevity not only dwarfs anything that had gone before but also, at least until the digital era, most of what came afterwards." for the very reason that I had remembered 'My Way'.

(as a side note, this is the worst thing about the Comments feature, it's not possible to directly reply to a comment)

[Metalweb]

^

I thought the Comments feature had been withdrawn anyway?

[InFamous]

^

I thought the Comments feature had been withdrawn anyway?

Site supporters can use it. Although Wayne did say it should be only sparingly.