The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[MrTibbs]

Also, RR has Vee going up to 3 when it is going down elsewhere. And Boone, having entered at 11 last week, racing up to 4 when it is only at 6 elsewhere.

It is a mess on just about every position below the top 2.

And it gets worse over the next few weeks Splodj, positions are all over the place especially RR who apparently continue to hold a grudge against Acker Bilk.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 30th 1961

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 30th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
2	1	Moon River - Danny Williams					1	1	3	2	2	1	9620
1	2	Tower Of Strength - Frankie Vaughan					3	2	1	3	1	2	9570
3	3	Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk					2	2	2	1	3	6	9510
6	4	Johnny Will - Pat Boone					4	4	4	4	6	5	8780
7	5	Let There Be Drums - Sandy Nelson					5	6	5	6	4	4	8470
4	6	Midnight In Moscow - Kenny Ball					6	5	7	7	5	3	8300
5	7	Take Good Care Of My Baby - Bobby Vee					7	7	6	5	8	8	8120
10	8	So Long Baby - Del Shannon					8	11	11	8	7	14	7040
8	9	My Friend The Sea - Petula Clark					9	13	12	10	9	9	6650
15	10	Toy Balloons - Russ Conway					10=	14	9	11	12	7	6550
19	11	I'd Never Find Another You - Billy Fury					10=	9	10	15	13	15	6160
11	12	Walkin' Back To Happiness - Helen Shapiro					13	16	14	13	15	16	5450
30	13	Multiplication - Bobby Darin					14	10	13	17		11	4900
9	14	I'll Get By - Shirley Bassey					15	18	16	16	14	19	4800
12	15	His Latest Flame / Little Sister - Elvis Presley					16	23		9	18	13	4250
18	16	Happy Birthday Sweet Sixteen - Neil Sedaka					12	8	18		11	10	4250
14	17	Big Bad John - Jimmy Dean					18	19	19	14		12	4120
13	18	Take Five - Dave Brubeck						20	8	19		24	3790
23	19	Don't Bring Lulu - Dorothy Provine					20	12	15			17	2900
17	20	When The Girl In Your Arms Is The Girl In Your Heart / Got A Funny Feeling - Cliff Richard						28	17	18		28	2600
16	21	The Time Has Come - Adam Faith					19			12		27	2210
20	22	I Understand - The G-Clefs						21			19	20	1730
24	23	You're The Only Good Thing - Jim Reeves						15				21	1580
26	24	Mrs. Mills Medley - Mrs. Mills						26			16	18	1540
NEW	25	Run To Him - Bobby Vee						22	20			26	1530
29	26	The Savage - The Shadows								20		23	1450
NEW	27	Goodbye Cruel World - James Darren						25			17		1180
21	28	I Cried For You - Ricky Stevens						17					1120
25	29	Son This Is She - John Leyton					17				10		1050
RE	30	Charleston - The Temperance Seven						24				22	830
		Baby's First Christmas - Connie Francis									20	30	580
		King Kong - Terry Lightfoot						27				29	380
		The Lion Sleeps Tonight - The Tokens										25	180
		September In The Rain - Dinah Washington						29					160
		Come Along Please - Bob Wallis						30					80

[MrTibbs]

Above chart completes 1961 and rounds off completed years nicely. This may be an opportune time to wind up the project as I sense interest is waning and there is no point as they say in 'flogging a dead horse'

Where once the thread received 150 to 200 views a day this has now dropped considerably to around 90 to 100. Of more importance though is that where the charts were once debated and commented on by a number of participants has dropped off considerably to only a handful of regular guys which again indicates that interest across the board has dropped off and even the views I do get are just of passing interest.

I suspect 1964 to 1969 were the really popular years which attracted lots of interest but thus far 1960 and 1961 don't garner the same enthusiasm which makes me think things won't be any better for 1962/63, let alone going back as I originally intended to the fifties where interest may drastically reduce even more.
Is my interpretation of this and logic correct and has the thread now passed its use by date ?

[Splodj]

The Wikipedia article on million sellers has 'Stranger on the shore' released in November, but then says it achieved a million in 1961. Surely that is too optimistic!

1-Jan-62 is when the Beatles recorded the unimpressive Decca audition tape.

Then the 'golden age' of Pick Of The Pops starts on 7-Jan-62 with the full Top 10 played. I notice that Unit 1 was expanded from being only new chart entrants to include other 11-20 records when there was a dearth of new releases for Unit 2 - mainly in the weeks leading up to Christmas. The final week of the year wasn't a problem because they were allowed to treat records released during that year as if they were new releases for needletime purposes, hence this week's POTP featured a review of the year as well as the current chart.

[Splodj]

Brian, I realise I am one of the 'regular guys' but I would very much like you to continue with the crucial years of 62 and 63. And at the risk of sounding too serious, I believe what you are doing is valuable academic research.

[kingofskiffle]

I agree with Splodj , and feel it should continue. I do think the 50's may not work as well (I had tried to compile something similar for 1955-56 myself and saw little differences between the charts and gave up). That said, if you're enjoying it why stop? For the 1950's, with smaller charts and longer chat runs, would a month at a time to post work better?

The thread averages 7 posts a day since it started, and at almost 2000 posts makes it one of the longest and most active in recent months. More in context - the next "lowest" post count thread is for Billboard chart requests started in 2014. No post form the front page has over 1000 posts and been started last year, so I think this is popular.

As always, it's up to the poster to make sure they are still enjoying doing it as, to me, that's the real point of posting this. Pif you're not then do stop, as I always feel people should enjoy what they do. We certainly enjoy what you have done so far, and it does seem a shame not to finish the last two years fro the full decade.

[BrainDamageII]

This may be an opportune time to wind up the project as I sense interest is waning and there is no point as they say in 'flogging a dead horse'

Where once the thread received 150 to 200 views a day this has now dropped considerably to around 90 to 100. Of more importance though is that where the charts were once debated and commented on by a number of participants has dropped off considerably to only a handful of regular guys which again indicates that interest across the board has dropped off and even the views I do get are just of passing interest.

I suspect 1964 to 1969 were the really popular years which attracted lots of interest but thus far 1960 and 1961 don't garner the same enthusiasm which makes me think things won't be any better for 1962/63, let alone going back as I originally intended to the fifties where interest may drastically reduce even more.
Is my interpretation of this and logic correct and has the thread now passed its use by date ?

MrTibbs

The question is do you still enjoy doing these charts regardless of number of views and replies. Would you complete this project even if you didn't post them here. If yes, then keep posting. I am positive there are plenty of people interested in this, myself included. Even if you only had 10 views a day, those 10 people are appreciating what you do.

Remember, many of your views might be from people who are not members, they cannot post, comment or like but still enjoy what you do.

As you probably know, I post the Billboard Charts every week but I must say that your thread is the one I go to look at updates more than any other so would be disappointed if you were to stop.

Keep Posting

[Robbie]

Keep posting the UAC MrTibbs. I may not post as frequently as I used to do but I do visit the thread every day.

[Metalweb]

Agreed! Would be a pity not to complete the remainder of the 60s, at least!

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Keep going Brian! I look in here several times a day regardless, even though I'm not as interested in 1960/61 as I am for 1965/68, when I lived in the UK (and also 1956/58). Though thread viewership may be temporarily down, I expect it to rise with the debut of Beatlemania. If you recall, I privately suggested you start this thread either in 1963, or with Love Me Do in very late 1962, so we could all experience the Beatle and beat group rise together. Guilt trip: it would be most unethical and immoral of you to cut us off now, just as UK beat groups are about to bloom and explode! Howzat, ha?

If it's too much work, then go to one chart per day, or every other day, or whatever. But we need you to keep this going. Robin Hood says rock on...

[MrTibbs]

I capitulate !

I interpreted wrongly.

I haven't in the least lost interest and it's not too much work, as compiling these charts still thrills and surprises me week after week. I'm actually way ahead anyway which proves this, and am currently working on September 1962. I too can't wait to get to 1963 which for me was the actual year when my world expanded and I embraced the charts and all things going on in them, further accentuated by the arrival of The Beatles and I was totally hooked from then.

Your comments above totally reassure me you are still hungry for this so it would be 'unethical and immoral' you've got to love that comment, lol, to take my foot off the pedal now, so I will enjoy to continue sharing these with you.

I overlooked just how many 'likes' I have for this thread, 22 at the last count, and as Lonnie says, the total number of views and comments built up in just 9 months. It is an awesome following that I am truly grateful for.

So, to all of you above, my thanks for urging me onwards, (and similarly thanks to all others who have 'liked' the thread and follow it), I will gladly continue with posting a new chart every day for our mutual pleasure.

[kjell]

I’m eagerly awaiting the Average for my formative years of musical taste, namely 62 and 63. I do hope you will go on Brian. A completion of the project for the era lacking sales to make this a chart Bible for the whole period should of course include the fifties.

[MrTibbs]

Yeah kjell, after 1963 I will go back to the fifties as originally stated. Lonnie makes a valid comment above though about 1955 and early 1956 when only 2 charts existed so very similar.

I intend to start in March 1956 when MM joined them with its own chart, initially compiling a composite Top 20 for a few weeks but from April 14th 1956 I will compile a Top 30 as NME compiled such from then too allowing a composite Top 30 from that date right through the sixties.

From February 1958 the Disc chart which comes on board then will be included too.

[Splodj]

With regard to the 1950s ...

There was a poster Vicky Williams on Tapatalk who started doing a 50s composite chart. She intended going right to the end of the decade but only posted as far as 25-Jun-55.

The thread is here: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/whirligigtv/complete-uk-charts-1952-59-t3756.html

Edit: Looking at it more carefully it is not so much a composite as the NME chart with the RM positions in the second column, and presumably the other chart positions would have been in subsequent columns had it continued.

[Robbie]

^
Vicky used to also post at ukmix (I forget the name she posted under) and Dotmusic. I wonder what became of her?

[Splodj]

She did do a composite chart from 6-Oct-56 to 7-Sep-57.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/whir...-64-t3765.html

The first post shows that her methodology was flawed. She gave 30 points to the NME number one and 20 points to the other charts number ones, and so on down. You need to give the same points for each number one, whether it is 1 point counting up or 30 points counting down.

A pity that someone did not give her feedback at the time, as clearly she was very knowledgeable and must have spent a lot of time and effort compiling them.

Although a poster (is that Alan Smith?) does point out to her early on that the BBC were not compiling a chart at that time so she was not recreating it.

[Robbie]

^
Vicky had a history of starting / stopping / restarting / restopping etc posting 50s and 60s chart threads back to early Dotmusic days in 1999 (I've just found the poster on ukmix and sure enough, there is an aborted 50s thread- Vicky posted 15/11/52 and 22/11/52 then posted "oh I give up" and promptly did that!) so I think posters got used to it and stopped commenting as the thread was bound to end sooner rather than later.

[MrTibbs]

As you know it was 1958 before the BBC did their own averaged chart. Dave and Trevor went back before then and did their own composite chart using the BBC methodology from the first RM chart in January 1955 which is certainly useful.

However I will continue to factor in the number of store returns to the averaging process for 55 to 59 just as I do now to make it more robust.

I again intend to use Alan's store numbers for this decade too. These as stated by him are NME 50 till 1959, RM 60 till 1961, MM 20 then 35 in 1959, and Disc 30 then 40 in 1959.

[braindeadpj]

I'm glad to see that you have decided to continue this most worthy of projects. It would be a travesty to not be able to see the rise of The Beatles and merseyside music in 1962/63 or for that matter the rise of Cliff Richard and Elvis Presley in the 50s (I know that some of 54-56 is tricky with only two charts - though with one you know the exact multiplier for many of the weeks). Yours is one of the threads I check every day (often several times a day!). Thank you for all the work you have done (and will do) to bring us this valuable thread.

[MrTibbs]

Thanks for that brain. Your supportive comments really are much appreciated, and yes I too am looking forwarding to charting these artists in the months to come.

[braindeadpj]

Looking at the 30th December, it is interesting that the only difference between the no.1 and 2 is the multiplier as everything else is the same. This does beg the question why the BBC chart is different. Assuming they didn't include RM or RR, then Moon River would still be no.1 (1-2-2) over Stranger on the Shore (2-1-3) and Tower of Strength (2-3-1) but you'd expect these to be equal 2. I guess they looked at last week and chose the one increasing for 2....
This is also one of the few charts where RR is the decider since if you exclude it, Moon River would be ahead on points, but Tower of Strength would be ahead for the number of no.1s (2 vs 1), best profile (1,1,2 vs 1,2,2) and best sum (7 vs 8) etc.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

For what it's worth, BBC Pick of the Pops started calculating their own averaged Top 3 chart in Oct 1957, before going to their larger Top 20 in Mar 1958...

[Splodj]

Assuming they didn't include RM or RR, then Moon River would still be no.1 (1-2-2) over Stranger on the Shore (2-1-3) and Tower of Strength (2-3-1) but you'd expect these to be equal 2.

I'm sure they didn't include RM or RR, because all the points tally on that basis - except for that tie at number 2.

I think they did tie those two records for number 2.

These are the chart records played that week on POTP in order:
JOHNNY WILL – PAT BOONE
TOY BALLOONS – RUSS CONWAY
MULTIPLICATION – BOBBY DARIN
LET THERE BE DRUMS – SANDY NELSON
HAPPY BIRTHDAY SWEET SIXTEEN – NEIL SEDAKA
I`D NEVER FIND ANOTHER YOU – BILLY FURY
STRANGER ON THE SHORE – MR ACKER BILK
TOWER OF STRENGTH – FRANKIE VAUGHAN
MOON RIVER – DANNY WILLIAMS

At that time they always ended with the Top 3 rundown. If Frankie had been number 3 they would have played him before Acker. This indicates that the 6 point tie for Frankie and Acker was represented as you would expect by a joint number 2.

(I got the playlist for the programme here: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/pops...ri-t14678.html There is a recording of the show elsewhere but it is only partial and does not include the current chart section.)

[MrTibbs]

I'm sure they didn't include RM or RR, because all the points tally on that basis - except for that tie at number 2.

At this time the BBC still didn't include RM or RR, they still compiled their chart from NME, MM, Disc only.

The BBC only included RR when RM adopted the RR chart in March 1962.

[MrTibbs]

Right, onward and upward, here comes 1962