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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Graham's radio programme was on 12th November 1995.

    McCartney had been worried about how Get Back would sound on AM radio so a remix was always on the cards. It is similar to A Whiter Shade Of Pale where there was concern that the cymbals might drown out the song on the radio - so an acetate was sent to Radio London well in advance of the release date giving plenty of time for a remix if needed.

    ​​​​​​​Going back to Cliff's remarkable run of 57 hits, I can remember his first single not to chart in late 1972. A crestfallen Cliff was interviewed saying how disappointed and surprised he was. But it made it to the top of the Breakers, so presumably was number 51.
    Thanks for that, I could never remember when it was broadcast.
    You have to be careful with assuming breakers list positions as being chart positions outside the top 50. Since the breakers list was often put in alphabetical order. And since they didn't include records going down or records that didn't have sales increases that had not made the charts. Cliff could have been a lot lower than 51.
    Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

    Comment


    • ^

      The breakers list for 9 December '72 (with Cliff's 'Brand New Song' at the top) isn't in alphabetical order (either by artists or by song title!) so it's presumably safe to assume it's in sales order.

      Still, we can't say Cliff was at No.51 as singles declining in sales weren't in the list.

      All that can be said for sure is that 51 is the maximum position BNS could have had in an extended chart!

      Comment


      • True, it was a mistake for me to assume it was 51.

        As a general point though, Cliff's discography does show how nebulous is the concept of a 'hit'. On :Juke Box Jury' I had the impression you became a hit only if you made the BBC Top 20.
        Last edited by Splodj; Fri March 12, 2021, 14:41.

        Comment


        • Yes, the idea of what constitutes a proper hit does see to have changed since those days...

          I remember an early 70s interview with The Sweet in (I think...) Melody Maker in which (for some reason or other) they contrasted their chart success with Cliff's and claimed "every other record Cliff releases is a miss, but he's still a household name..."

          Cliff's chart positions had been declining so it was inevitable that sooner or later a release would fail to reach the Top 50.

          In retrospect he was fortunate his next release was the Eurovision entry 'Power To All Our Friends' that put him right back in the spotlight...

          Comment


          • It has just occured to me that using the implied Juke Box Jury' definition Love Me Do was s miss!

            Comment


            • Thus far, Love Me Do has just missed out on the Top 30 on The Ultimate Chart on 27th October
              The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

              The Biggest Chart Of The Time

              Comment


              • On Alan Smith's thread of Beatles chart positions, Love Me Do enters the BBC Top 30 on 17th November at 29. So by then they must have started calculating the 21-30 positions for internal use.

                If Epstein did hype it, his main victim was RR!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                  On Alan Smith's thread of Beatles chart positions, Love Me Do enters the BBC Top 30 on 17th November at 29. So by then they must have started calculating the 21-30 positions for internal use.
                  The BBC added the 21 - 30 positions from 6th October 1962 the same week that Disc started publishing a Top 30 also.
                  MM had commenced a Top 30 on April 14th and then moved to a Top 50 from 15th September.

                  Love Me Do is back in the 'breakers' again on 10th April by charting on MM and Disc so poised to enter the Ultimate Top 30 on the 17th like you say.
                  The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                  The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

                    I agree with that Brian, I also think that was the total for the year. 1969 was a very poor year for record sales in total.
                    Yes and on further reflection that surely has to be the case and apologies because I misread the source I was quoting (as ever I was supposed to be working while I was idling on UKMix instead so rather rushed my post!) - the total sales figure was estimated as 530k. No pre-order indications, but I'd still stake a fair claim that it had a pretty strong chance of charting highly across all charts corresponding to the week of 19 Apr '69, if not at No 1, had it come out on 11 Apr. In any case Brian05 has apparently cleared up the issue - there was a last-minute "re-mixing delay" which pushed its distribution into W/C 14 Apr. But the point stands - and Graham in his inimitable style has endorsed it above - that we can only be so trusting of official release dates given by record companies, and reflected in printed and digital sources, both contemporaneously and decades down the line.

                    I do recall the KP Salted Peanuts debacle yes! Though unfortunately one needs only to look at last week's chart to see a more recent example of how such outlandishness can and does still occur, and that the OCC is still susceptible to embarrassing errors if not only the IT but their internal staff let them down (see thread re the 'comeback' JLS single!!).

                    Comment


                    • Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 17th 1962


                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 17th 1962 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
                      Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
                      Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                      1 1 The Young Ones - Cliff Richard 1 1 1 1 2 1 9850
                      2 2 Rock-A-Hula Baby / Can't Help Falling In Love - Elvis Presley 2 3 2 2 1 2 9540
                      3 3 Let's Twist Again - Chubby Checker 3 2 3 3 3 4 9290
                      4 4 Forget Me Not - Eden Kane 4 4 4 4 4 3 8940
                      5 5 Walk On By - Leroy Van Dyke 5 5 5 5 5 5 8580
                      6 6 Happy Birthday Sweet Sixteen - Neil Sedaka 7 8 6 7 8 8 7820
                      10 7 Crying In The Rain - The Everly Brothers 6 6 8 9 6 9 7710
                      8 8 I'd Never Find Another You - Billy Fury 8 9 7 8 7 10 7560
                      7 9 Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk 10 11 9 6 11 7 7390
                      11 10 Run To Him - Bobby Vee 11 10 10 10 10 6 7050
                      12 11 A Little Bitty Tear - Burl Ives 9 7 13 12 9 13 6730
                      9 12 Multiplication - Bobby Darin 12 13 11 11 13 11 6340
                      17 13 Wimoweh - Karl Denver 13= 14 12 13 16 12 5800
                      15 14 Jeannie - Danny Williams 13= 17 15 14 12 15 5380
                      13 15 Lonesome - Adam Faith 15 15 16 15 17 14 5150
                      19 16 The Comancheros - Lonnie Donegan 16 16 20 17 15 17 4620
                      18 17 Don't Stop Twist - Frankie Vaughan 19 19 14 18 22 3680
                      14 18 Let There Be Drums - Sandy Nelson 20 22 17 16 18 3600
                      21 19 Peppermint Twist - Joey Dee and The Starliters 17 12 19 20 3450
                      16 20 The Twist - Chubby Checker 21 18 16 2030
                      NEW 21 Tell Me What He Said - Helen Shapiro 18 24 14 1410
                      20 22 Moon River - Danny Williams 30 19 1400
                      NEW 23 March Of The Siamese Children - Kenny Ball 23 20 29 1250
                      27 24 A Little Bitty Tear - Miki and Griff 18 19 1010
                      30 25 Softly As I Leave You - Matt Monro 20 30 910
                      22 26 Midnight In Moscow - Kenny Ball 27 20 650
                      NEW 27 Lessons In Love - The Allisons 19 600
                      29 28 It's A Raggy Waltz - Dave Brubeck 25 480
                      NEW 29 I'll See You In My Dreams - Pat Boone 26 400
                      23 30 The Lion Sleeps Tonight - The Tokens 21 300
                      Can't Help Falling In Love - Elvis Presley 18
                      Tonight - Shirley Bassey 28 240
                      Johnny Will - Pat Boone 23 240
                      Norman - Carol Deene 24 210
                      Pianissimo - Ken Dodd 25 180
                      The Wanderer - Dion 29 160
                      The Language Of Love - John D. Loudermilk 26 150
                      Son This Is She - John Leyton 27 120
                      You're The Only Good Thing - Jim Reeves 28 90
                      The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                      The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                      Comment


                      • Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 24th 1962

                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 24th 1962 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
                        Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
                        Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                        2 1 Rock-A-Hula Baby / Can't Help Falling In Love - Elvis Presley 1 3 1 1 1 1 9740
                        1 2 The Young Ones - Cliff Richard 2 2 2 2 2 2 9570
                        3 3 Let's Twist Again - Chubby Checker 3 1 3 3 3 3 9400
                        4 4 Forget Me Not - Eden Kane 4 4 4 4 4 4 8910
                        5 5 Walk On By - Leroy Van Dyke 5 6 5 5 6 5 8450
                        13 6 Wimoweh - Karl Denver 7 5 6 7 8 8 8060
                        7 7 Crying In The Rain - The Everly Brothers 6 8 8 6 5 7 7990
                        9 8 Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk 11 12 9 9 12 12 6780
                        11 9 A Little Bitty Tear - Burl Ives 8 10 12 12 7 9 6770
                        10 10 Run To Him - Bobby Vee 9 11 15 8 13 6 6740
                        23 11 March Of The Siamese Children - Kenny Ball 13 7 7 13 15 15 6620
                        8 12 I'd Never Find Another You - Billy Fury 12 14 10 10 10 10 6610
                        6 13 Happy Birthday Sweet Sixteen - Neil Sedaka 10 13 11 11 9 13 6480
                        21 14 Tell Me What He Said - Helen Shapiro 14 16 16 14 11 22 5240
                        12 15 Multiplication - Bobby Darin 15 15 20 15 14 11 5150
                        14 16 Jeannie - Danny Williams 18 21 18 16 20 14 4290
                        17 17 Don't Stop Twist - Frankie Vaughan 17 24 19 17 18 24 3680
                        15 18 Lonesome - Adam Faith 16 22 18 16 17 3320
                        19 19 Peppermint Twist - Joey Dee and The Starliters 20 20 2090
                        NEW 20 The Wanderer - Dion 19 17 17 1960
                        NEW 21 A Hole In The Ground - Bernard Cribbins 26 13 1480
                        25 22 Softly As I Leave You - Matt Monro 18 19 1400
                        NEW 23 Never Goodbye - Karl Denver 19 1320
                        NEW 24 Lesson One - Russ Conway 30 14 1100
                        16 25 The Comancheros - Lonnie Donegan 23 16 1090
                        24 26 A Little Bitty Tear - Miki and Griff 20 17 20 1030
                        29 27 I'll See You In My Dreams - Pat Boone 19 960
                        27 28 Lessons In Love - The Allisons 19 600
                        18 29 Let There Be Drums - Sandy Nelson 27 25 500
                        NEW 30 Ring-A-Ding Girl - Ronnie Carroll 25 480
                        Can't Help Falling In Love - Elvis Presley 9
                        The Twist - Chubby Checker 18 390
                        Tonight - Shirley Bassey 29 26 310
                        Midnight In Moscow - Kenny Ball 21 300
                        Twisting The Night Away - Sam Cooke 28 240
                        Pianissimo - Ken Dodd 23 240
                        Son This Is She - John Leyton 27 120
                        Moon River - Danny Williams 28 90
                        Norman - Carol Deene 29 60
                        The Lion Sleeps Tonight - The Tokens 30 30
                        The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                        The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                        Comment


                        • Ronnie Carroll's Ring-A-Ding Girl was the UK's Eurovision entry in 1962. Needless to say it didn't win
                          The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                          The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                            Graham's radio programme was on 12th November 1995.

                            McCartney had been worried about how Get Back would sound on AM radio so a remix was always on the cards. It is similar to A Whiter Shade Of Pale where there was concern that the cymbals might drown out the song on the radio - so an acetate was sent to Radio London well in advance of the release date giving plenty of time for a remix if needed.

                            Going back to Cliff's remarkable run of 57 hits, I can remember his first single not to chart in late 1972. A crestfallen Cliff was interviewed saying how disappointed and surprised he was. But it made it to the top of the Breakers, so presumably was number 51.
                            The details of that show can be found here (not that I never heard it) Doing the Business - BBC Radio 1 England - 12 November 1995 - BBC Genome

                            Comment


                            • Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 3rd 1962

                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 3rd 1962 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
                              Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
                              Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                              1 1 Can't Help Falling In Love / Rock-A-Hula Baby - Elvis Presley* 2= 5 1 1 1 1 9900
                              3 2 Let's Twist Again - Chubby Checker 2= 1 2 3 3 3 9460
                              2 3 The Young Ones - Cliff Richard 1 2 4 2 2 2 9450
                              11 4 March Of The Siamese Children - Kenny Ball 4 3 3 6 5 8 8660
                              4 5 Forget Me Not - Eden Kane 5= 8 7 4 4 4 8410
                              6 6 Wimoweh - Karl Denver 5= 4 8 5 7 5 8380
                              14 7 Tell Me What He Said - Helen Shapiro 7 6 5 9 9 12 7650
                              5 8 Walk On By - Leroy Van Dyke 9 11 6 7 8 7 7610
                              7 9 Crying In The Rain - The Everly Brothers 8 10 10 8 6 6 7470
                              9 10 A Little Bitty Tear - Burl Ives 10 9 12 10 10 9 6920
                              NEW 11 Wonderful Land - The Shadows 11 12 9 12 11 20 6260
                              8 12 Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk 12 13 16 11 13 11 6040
                              10 13 Run To Him - Bobby Vee 14 18 15 13 15 15 5260
                              13 14 Happy Birthday Sweet Sixteen - Neil Sedaka 13 15 17 14 16 14 5250
                              12 15 I'd Never Find Another You - Billy Fury 15 21 19 15 12 10 4860
                              20 16 The Wanderer - Dion 19= 18 13 19 19 23 4280
                              21 17 A Hole In The Ground - Bernard Cribbens 18 17 11 17 22 4130
                              22 18 Softly As I Leave You - Matt Monro 16 13 14 17 13 3700
                              19 19 Peppermint Twist - Joey Dee and The Starliters 17 16 16 2850
                              16 20 Jeannie - Danny Williams 22 18 18 2540
                              28 21 Lessons In Love - The Allisons 23 20 18 2500
                              27 22 I'll See You In My Dreams - Pat Boone 18 20 1590
                              26 23 A Little Bitty Tear - Mike and Griff 19= 14 17 1270
                              24 24 Lesson One - Russ Conway 25 20 1140
                              17 25 Don't Stop Twist - Frankie Vaughan 29 18 28 1030
                              25 26 The Comancheros - Lonnie Donegan 28 16 690
                              NEW 27 Pianissimo - Ken Dodd 27 21 620
                              NEW 28 Tonight - Shirley Bassey 26 25 580
                              30 29 Ring-A-Ding Girl - Ronnie Carroll 24 560
                              15 30 Multiplication - Bobby Darin 19 360
                              * This week the split sides would have affected NME's averaged chart positionso an average was taken from the other 4 charts giving an average of 1 to Elvis Presley and awarded to NME to give a more representative chart position for both sides together.
                              Rock-A-Hula Baby - Elvis Presley 7
                              The Twist - Chubby Checker 24 210
                              It's A Raggy Waltz - Dave Brubeck 29 160
                              Twisting The Night Away - Sam Cooke 29 160
                              Midnight In Moscow - Kenny Ball 26 150
                              Lonesome - Adam Faith 27 120
                              Let There Be Drums - Sandy Nelson 29 60
                              Theme From 'Dr. Kildare' - Johnny Spence 30 30
                              The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                              The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                              Comment


                              • The weakness of the BBC chart methodology can clearly be seen here. The BBC places Cliff at #1 although not #1 on ANY chart. Elvis is denied top spot because the BBC use the NME position of #5, a low chart position due to split sides.

                                The BBC are still using only NME, MM, and Disc so the points are in Cliff's favour, Elvis though is #1 on MM , Disc, and despite not being used also RM and RR so of course Elvis is clearly #1.
                                The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                Comment


                                • Wouldn't the assignment of more NME points to Elvis give him the most? He has only has 7740.

                                  Comment


                                  • A big boob by the Beeb. Though looking through the BBC charts in isolation Cliff coming back for a further week at the top does not look as strange as what would happen next week.
                                    Last edited by Splodj; Sun March 14, 2021, 10:56.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                                      A big boob by the Beeb. Though looking through the BBC charts in isolation Cliff coming back for a further week at the top does not look as strange as what would happen next week.
                                      Ha Ha, I should be getting those posted later
                                      The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                      The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                                        Wouldn't the assignment of more NME points to Elvis give him the most? He has only has 7740.
                                        Yeah the updated points are on the calculation spreadsheet you don't see, I left the original point total to let you see what it originally scored or would you rather see the updated points ?
                                        The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                        The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                        Comment


                                        • Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 10th 1962

                                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 10th 1962 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
                                          Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
                                          Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                          1 1 Can't Help Falling In Love / Rock-A-Hula Baby - Elvis Presley* 2 7 1 1 2 1 9830
                                          4 2 March Of The Siamese Children - Kenny Ball 1 1 5 4 1 6 9180
                                          2 3 Let's Twist Again - Chubby Checker 3= 2 4 2 7 3 9170
                                          3 4 The Young Ones - Cliff Richard 3= 4 3 3 4 2 9140
                                          6 5 Wimoweh - Karl Denver 5 3 7 6 3 4 8640
                                          11 6 Wonderful Land - The Shadows 7 6 2 5 6 9 8510
                                          7 7 Tell Me What He Said - Helen Shapiro 6 4 6 7 5 5 8380
                                          5 8 Forget Me Not - Eden Kane 8 11 8 8 8 7 7380
                                          9 9 Crying In The Rain - The Everly Brothers 9 10 9 9 10 10 7100
                                          12 10 Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk 10 9 11 11 11 13 6700
                                          8 11 Walk On By - Leroy Van Dyke 11 14 12 10 9 8 6600
                                          10 12 A Little Bitty Tear - Burl Ives 12 13 14 12 12 11 6100
                                          18 13 Softly As I Leave You - Matt Monro 14= 12 13 16 15 12 5620
                                          16 14 The Wanderer - Dion 14= 16 10 14 13 20 5560
                                          17 15 A Hole In The Ground - Bernard Cribbens 13 14 15 13 14 18 5540
                                          14 16 Happy Birthday Sweet Sixteen - Neil Sedaka 18 24 17 18 14 3260
                                          19 17 Peppermint Twist - Joey Dee and The Starliters 16= 28 15 20 2550
                                          22 18 I'll See You In My Dreams - Pat Boone 16= 19 19 16 27 2550
                                          NEW 19 Twisting The Night Away - Sam Cooke 19 17 19 2440
                                          23 20 A Little Bitty Tear - Miki and Griff 20 20 17 16 2360
                                          NEW 21 Frankie And Johnny - Mr. Acker Bilk 20 18 2090
                                          NEW 22 Theme From 'Z Cars' - Johnny Keating 22 18 24 1710
                                          24 23 Lesson One - Russ Conway 24 16 23 1700
                                          NEW 24 Dream Baby - Roy Orbison 18 28 1130
                                          20 25 Jeannie - Danny Williams 23 19 1000
                                          21 26 Lessons In Love - The Allisons 27 19 920
                                          NEW 27 Letter Full Of Tears - Billy Fury 20 880
                                          25 28 Don't Stop Twist - Frankie Vaughan 17 30 870
                                          RE 29 Never Goodbye - Karl Denver 21 29 860
                                          15 30 I'd Never Find Another You - Billy Fury 15 480
                                          * This week the split sides would have affected NME's averaged chart positionso an average was taken from the other 4 charts giving an average of 1.25 to Elvis Presley and awarded to NME to give a more representative chart position for both sides together.
                                          Rock-A-Hula Baby - Elvis Presley 8
                                          Run To Him - Bobby Vee 17 420
                                          I Ain't Got Nobody - Buddy Greco 26 400
                                          Pianissimo - Ken Dodd 30 22 350
                                          Tonight - Shirley Bassey 21 300
                                          Brazilian Love Song - Nat King Cole 28 240
                                          The Comancheros - Lonnie Donegan 25 180
                                          Midnight In Moscow - Kenny Ball 26 150
                                          Listen To Me - Buddy Holly 30 80
                                          The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                          The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                          Comment


                                          • Elvis is definitely #1 again this week not Kenny Ball as in BBC chart. #7 in NME against 1 1 2 1, clearly indicated the split sides affected the overall chart position in NME, this has been corrected in the above Ultimate chart to award the correct result.
                                            The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                            The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                            Comment


                                            • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

                                              Yeah the updated points are on the calculation spreadsheet you don't see, I left the original point total to let you see what it originally scored or would you rather see the updated points ?
                                              Interestingly, with a top 20 chart, no adjustments to the points are required. Elvis is on top both times....

                                              Comment


                                              • Yeah true brain if all five charts are counted, but unfortunately the BBC only used three, NME, MM, Disc so that's how they ended up with their calculation.
                                                The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                                The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                                Comment


                                                • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                                                  Yeah true brain if all five charts are counted, but unfortunately the BBC only used three, NME, MM, Disc so that's how they ended up with their calculation.
                                                  I meant a top 20-based Ultimate Averaged Chart (no.1 = 20 x no. stores rather than 30), but you are also correct with the BBC-style chart including all 5.

                                                  Comment


                                                  • Another pattern I have noticed for some time is that some charts seem to align with others. If you look carefully you will note that NME and Disc have similarities whilst MM and RR also have some similarities.
                                                    The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                                    The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                                    Comment

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