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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Splodj
    replied
    It seems to me that the Guinness book missed out a week. They do not include the NME chart of w/e 5-Mar-60, the week before RR started. Has anyone commented on this before?

    Guinness give the 5-Mar-60 charting records one less week in the chart than they should. For example, Adam Faith's 'Poor Me' is stated as having 17 weeks in the chart instead of the 18 weeks it did and, more tellingly, only 1 week at number one instead of 2 weeks.

    Indeed at the changeover point in the Number Ones section there is an explanation of why their last NME chart is w/e 27-Feb (NME publication date 26-Feb) that simply doesn't make sense.

    The OCC does include the w/e 5-Mar-60 NME chart. (Although I notice they have Voice In The Wilderness and On A Slow Boat To China tied at number 4 that week, unlike the NME charts on this forum.)

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Jet and Tony close in at #2 but classic tune as it is it won't have the sales push to dislodge The Beatles from the top spot as both Cliff and Billy J. also rush into the Top 10. Manchester gets in on the group action too not wanting Liverpool to grab all the limelight as Freddie debuts at 26 with what will be the first of three Top 3 hits for them this year.

    Things are hotting up !

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending May 18th 1963

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 18th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 From Me To You - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    4 2 Scarlett O'Hara - Jet Harris and Tony Meehan 2 2 2 3 3 9490
    3 3 Can't Get Used To Losing You - Andy Williams 3 3 4 2 2 9170
    2 4 How Do You Do It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 4 5 3 5 4 8910
    6 5 In Dreams - Roy Orbison 5 7 5 4 6 8400
    16 6 Lucky Lips - Cliff Richard 6= 4 8 6 9 8060
    9 7 Two Kinds Of Teardrops - Del Shannon 6= 8 7 7 5 7880
    7 8 Nobody's Darlin' But Mine - Frank Ifield 9 9 6 9 8 7740
    17 9 Do You Want To Know A Secret - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas 8 5 9 8 10 7680
    5 10 From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller 10 10 10 10 7 7020
    11 11 Losing You - Brenda Lee 11 12 12 11 11 6350
    8 12 Say I Won't Be There - The Springfields 12 14 11 12 12 6220
    15 13 He's So Fine - The Chiffons 13 11 13 13 16 6050
    10 14 Brown Eyed Handsome Man - Buddy Holly 14 18 14 14 13 5240
    23 15 Young Lovers - Paul and Paula 15 13 19 15 14 4910
    12 16 Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades 16 18 16 17 15 4730
    21 17 Deck Of Cards - Wink Martindale 17 15 17 18 19 4710
    13 18 The Folk Singer - Tommy Roe 18 22 15 16 17 4470
    22 19 Casablanca - Kenny Ball 20 17 20 24 21 3700
    14 20 Walk Like A Man - The Four Seasons 19 24 18 19 18 3640
    27 21 Pipeline - The Chantays 21 16 23 22 22 3420
    19 22 Say Wonderful Things - Ronnie Carroll 23= 23 22 26 25 2580
    18 23 Foot Tapper - The Shadows 22 21 21 20 2330
    NEW 24 When Will You Say I Love You - Billy Fury 23= 21 27 20 28 2240
    24 25 My Way - Eddie Cochran 25 25 25 25 23 2040
    NEW 26 If You Gotta Make A Fool Of Somebody - Freddie and The Dreamers 26 27 26 23 1550
    20 27 Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard 27 30 24 24 1360
    NEW 28 Little Band Of Gold - James Gilreath 28 20 28 1250
    26 29 The End Of The World - Skeeter Davis 29 28 27 570
    NEW 30 Take These Chains From My Heart - Ray Charles 30= 26 500
    28 Let's Turkey Trot / Old Smokey Locomotion - Little Eva 29 30 350
    B Forget Him - Bobby Rydell 28 300
    X Just Listen To My Heart - The Spotnicks 29 200
    X I Wanna Be Around - Tony Bennett 27 200
    29 Robot - The Tornados 30 30 180
    25 Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury 30 26 150
    X Shy Girl - The Cascades 29 100
    30 Charmaine - The Bachelors 29 60

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    I suppose Record Retailer had to devise a tie-break system in order to present what they saw as a credible chart. A chart with half a dozen ties each week (and therefore involving at least 12 records or, looking at it another way, almost 25% of everything in the chart) wouldn't have been acceptable. It would have highlighted the inherent problem of compiling a chart from a mere 30 shop returns.
    On the other hand if all 30 shops were supplying them with actual sales of records, rather than a points system the others were using it seems cock-eyed to me! Especially if he was then changing it to point system. One man compiling the chart was silly anyway. He should have employed a few teenagers to do it. There would have been plenty to do that sort of thing for little money at that time! They could have calculated actual sales and then he could have phoned a store to break any sales at the same level. It would have been a great marketing ploy to. The ONLY chart that counts what you buy!
    Pity they didn't have a desktop calculator in the 60's. He could have gone through the records like lightning

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    In my Guinness book (6) it has a Straight In At Number One section. Of course the Beatles only feature with Get Back. It says: "Slade remain the only act to enter the chart at number one with consecutive releases." Ridiculous!

    As mentioned I used to listen to Tim Rice on his 'You Don't Know What You've Got' show in which he would rattle off historic chart data He must have known of the anomalies the RR period threw up.

    A thought on the BBC ties ... unless you were one of those writing it all down, it was generally less noticeable than in a printed chart. If you were not listening closely to a Freeman link you would just hear the sequence of the records. In a printed list they are obvious.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Agreed. I never thought of it like that with a quarter of the chart in ties. It would look ridiculous. Just look at the BBC chart some weeks. The weaknesses were all kept quiet too 30 for a sample was never going to work effectively. The Guinness book team and those that came after them took a very narrow and poorly evaluated decision when choosing the RR chart.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    I suppose Record Retailer had to devise a tie-break system in order to present what they saw as a credible chart. A chart with half a dozen ties each week (and therefore involving at least 12 records or, looking at it another way, almost 25% of everything in the chart) wouldn't have been acceptable. It would have highlighted the inherent problem of compiling a chart from a mere 30 shop returns.

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    An extremely fragile and vulnerable system at RR with highly questionable results at least for the first three years of OCC. Documents the value of this thread which in fact could well be prolonged for three years after 56-59.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending May 11th 1963

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 11th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 From Me To You - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    2 2 How Do You Do It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 2 2 2 2 2 9570
    4 3 Can't Get Used To Losing You - Andy Williams 3 5 3 3 5 8980
    11 4 Scarlett O'Hara - Jet Harris and Tony Meehan 5 3 4 6 7 8820
    3 5 From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller 4 6 6 4 3 8440
    7 6 In Dreams - Roy Orbison 7 7 5 5 6 8350
    6 7 Nobody's Darlin' But Mine - Frank Ifield 6 4 7 7 4 8310
    5 8 Say I Won't Be There - The Springfields 8 9 8 9 8 7440
    15 9 Two Kinds Of Teardrops - Del Shannon 9 8 10 8 9 7260
    9 10 Brown Eyed Handsome Man - Buddy Holly 10= 15 9 10 11 6550
    12 11 Losing You - Brenda Lee 10= 12 11 12 10 6480
    8 12 Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades 12 13 12 13 12 6120
    10 13 The Folk Singer - Tommy Roe 13 16 13 14 13 5590
    13 14 Walk Like A Man - The Four Seasons 17 17 14 17 14 5160
    17 15 He's So Fine - The Chiffons 16 14 16 16 16 5150
    NEW 16 Lucky Lips - Cliff Richard 14= 10 20 11 21 5050
    29 17 Do You Want To Know A Secret - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas 14= 11 19 15 17 5020
    14 18 Foot Tapper - The Shadows 18 21 15 18 15 4530
    16 19 Say Wonderful Things - Ronnie Carroll 19 22 17 19 20 3930
    18 20 Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard 20 23 18 21 19 3610
    27 21 Deck Of Cards - Wink Martindale 21 20 21 20 22 3420
    26 22 Casablanca - Kenny Ball 23 18 22 25 27 3070
    NEW 23 Young Lovers - Paul and Paula 22 24 24 22 18 2590
    NEW 24 My Way - Eddie Cochran 24 24 29 23 29 1460
    19 25 Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury 25 28 25 23 1440
    21 26 The End Of The World - Skeeter Davis 27= 23 30 25 1430
    NEW 27 Pipeline - The Chantays 27= 19 28 1350
    20 28 Let's Turkey Trot / Old Smokey Locomotion - Little Eva 26 26 27 24 1160
    25 29 Robot - The Tornados 30= 27 28 690
    24 30 Charmaine - The Bachelors 29 28 26 600
    23 Count On Me - Julie Grant 26 30 530
    28 So It Will Always Be - The Everly Brothers 29 30 29 450
    B Little Band Of Gold - James Gilreath 27 400
    X Just Listen To My Heart - The Spotnicks 30= 24 350
    B If You Gotta Make A Fool Of Somebody - Freddie and The Dreamers 26 250
    X It's My Way Of Loving You - Miki and Griff 29 200
    22 Island Of Dreams - The Springfields
    30 Mr Bass Man - Johnny Cymbal

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    That makes for both interesting and fascinating reading Robin. Lots of detail in there explaining methodology.getting that level of insight into the workings is an eye opener.

    But what a muddle to get into involving tie breaking. I'm with u in selecting (d) as the only realistic option as it is at least selecting additional sales from the week in question. In what universe did they think using sales from a non relevant week was a good method.

    I'm rocking on.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Final thoughts on Record Retailer tie-breakers per Alan Smith: responding to Graham's post #2409 above responding to my previous post #2400; a NEW discovery; summary. Ready, steady, GO !!

    Alan didn't say that ALL RR reporting shops furnished actual sales data to Jeremy Wilder; Alan did say that after Jeremy had calculated a summed points RR chart he then phoned ONLY 1 or 2 of the largest RR reporting shops in London or Liverpool to get their sales data in order to break the half dozen ties per week. That the shops kept this data for 1 week, and Jeremy could get it if he phoned in time. One might could assume that Jeremy had his 1 or 2 shops already lined up in advance with a standing order to hold onto their sales data for a week just in case they were needed.

    Nonetheless, I went ahead and plowed thru more of Alan’s articles dealing with RR tie-breaking, and discovered yet another interesting item of note. In all 6 of Alan’s “Updated Chart History” articles here on UKMix (in 2014, 2012, 2007, twice in 2006, 2005), he states that RR ties were broken by looking at the “rate of sales change from the previous week”.

    However, in all 3 of Alan’s “History of Record Retailer” articles here on UKMix (in 2014, 2012, 2005), he states that “the rate of increase or decrease from week-to-week points tally as a percentage was taken into account in order to separate chart positions”. Rate of tallied chart points change.

    Could it be that Jeremy was using both methods at different points in time? Or was Alan just simplifying his wording in his “Updated Chart History” articles, as his “History of RR” articles get into much greater detail?

    ----------------

    To accompany the above, here’s specifically what Alan told me by way of 4 emails, in his own words:

    1. When I spoke to Norman Bates ex R. Retailer (about 1999) who could only recall `so much` of the process- sadly, the fellow who compiled the RR chart 1960-69 Jeremy Wilder was no longer available - Both he and Editor Roy Parker devised the `Countback` system when realising only using up to 30 stores (To Jan 64) for a Top 50 listing `would` produce many tied positions. There were a few anyway in this system- but they often eliminated them by `drawing lots!` (Norman laughed about this) so that by publication; no `ties`. One once did get through on some listings, 14 Jan 67, in some RR listings both "Sunshine Superman" and "Morningtown Ride" were joint No 2. Then when the BMRB chart took over from 15 Feb 69 its Top 50s were littered with `tied` positions because they did not have a system for separating them till sometime in 1972.

    2. Jeremy used rates of increase or decrease in sales from last week’s figures which he kept for those purposes. `Please Please Me` [tied at #1] Yes- I think with "Wayward Wind" it may well have done. As for the Stones [19th Nervous Breakdown]- they spent 3 weeks No 2 and might have tied for one week in RR chart. No way of proving it though as Jeremy’s workings long destroyed.

    3. As far as I can recall from my communications with Norman Bates - actual sales figures were requested only from the largest (Either London or Liverpool based) retailers for breaking `tied` points positions. Jeremy only requested the one- or occasionally two sets of figures just to separate the points tied. It would take far too much time to go through all thirty sets of figures. Doing this for often at least half a dozen tied figures each week delayed the finished compiled RR chart to each Tuesday. The other chart compilers all had their charts done by Monday afternoons as they were ok about publishing tied positions. I suspect that `Disc` had a method for eliminating tied positions in their chart (1958- 67) but I have no data on that-sadly! The system Jeremy used I suspect would cause him to work harder producing a chart from 30 returns than one on over 100 but leaving tied positions in. No wonder it was junked by 1969.

    4. Most times Jeremy would use the change in percent from previous weeks - but on the rare occasion that even `those` came out level; he would phone for exact sales figures. Shops kept them for a week, so as long as he phoned in time that was ok. It was only on very rare occasions he needed to ask for exact sales figures though. That's what was relayed to me. When the RR sample increased to between 80 - 100 from start of 1964 much less instances of ties and so the chart could be passed to BBC in time for `Pick of the Pops` from this point- though they still published it in Record Mirror same day (Thursday) to end of June 67 when it was brought forward to Wednesday publication.

    ----------------

    So that’s all the Alan text. To summarize the RR tie-breaker per Alan:

    --half a dozen ties occurred each week Mar 1960 thru Dec 1963, when RR was sampling 30 shops

    --fewer ties occurred thereafter when RR went to 80 shops

    --RR / Jeremy used several methods to break ties:
    (a) a rate of change of summed chart points week over week, or
    (b) a rate of change of sales week over week from 1 or 2 of the largest record shops, or
    (c) drawing lots (!!), or
    (d) actual sales from 1 or 2 of the largest record shops, or
    (e) some combination of the above

    --resolving the tie-breakers delayed compiling the finished RR chart by an extra day (to Tuesdays)


    Hopefully RR progressed from lesser to better tie-breakers over time, but in my book only (d) above is acceptable (and not perfect), the others are bogus to ridiculous.

    It would’ve been better to just let ties be ties, and thus RR would’ve more often agreed with the other charts, but alas…

    ----------------

    THE END. Rock on...

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post

    It was played on BBC Radio's Two-Way Family Favourites.
    A great favourite of my mum and dad on a Sunday afternoon. I preferred Pick Of The Pops a few hours later

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    Interest was supposedly re-kindled when it was played on a radio show in 1963 leading to it's best chart performance to date.
    It was played on BBC Radio's Two-Way Family Favourites.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post

    Of course Frankie reached no.4 with their next record (Rage Hard) while Gerry only reached no.6 (Don't let the Sun Catch Catch You Crying) so you could say Frankie had the best start....until The Spice Girls and Westlife of course....
    Yeah agreed, Gerry's 'Sun' was a really good single but I think it lost out by peaking at 6 as it was not as commercial as his previous four singles.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

    Interest was supposedly re-kindled when it was played on a radio show in 1963 leading to it's best chart performance to date.
    OK. Thanks for that. Makes sense.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post

    I know it's a re-entry as it was on the very first Ultimate Chart of 1960 at 24 (it then dropped off and re-appeared the following week at 30). I was just wondering why it resurfaced? Was it used in a movie or did something else fuel its reappearance?
    Interest was supposedly re-kindled when it was played on a radio show in 1963 leading to it's best chart performance to date.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    Yeah that equalled Gerry as well. He stalled at #2 as well with I'm The One, their fourth release.
    Of course Frankie reached no.4 with their next record (Rage Hard) while Gerry only reached no.6 (Don't let the Sun Catch Catch You Crying) so you could say Frankie had the best start....until The Spice Girls and Westlife of course....
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Mon April 26, 2021, 17:02.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

    I treated Deck Of Cards as a re-entry brain because it was already a chart hit back at the end of 1959 and when I get around to (if the demand is there) compiling The Ultimate 1950's Charts 'Deck' will appear there.
    I know it's a re-entry as it was on the very first Ultimate Chart of 1960 at 24 (it then dropped off and re-appeared the following week at 30). I was just wondering why it resurfaced? Was it used in a movie or did something else fuel its reappearance?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah that equalled Gerry as well. He stalled at #2 as well with I'm The One, their fourth release.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    As we all know Gerry and the Pacemakers went down in History as having their first three singles go to no.1. A record not equalled until 1984 by Frankie Goes To Hollywood (also from Liverpool). Of course The Spice Girls (6) and Westlife (7) have since beaten this, but I remember Frankie Goes To Hollywood equalling this record and being disappointed when Welcome to the Pleasure Dome stalled at no.2 in 1985.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    I wonder how often people from the same town (excluding knocking yourself off) have replaced each other at no.1?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    So why did 'Deck of cards' re-enter from January 1960?
    I treated Deck Of Cards as a re-entry brain because it was already a chart hit back at the end of 1959 and when I get around to (if the demand is there) compiling The Ultimate 1950's Charts 'Deck' will appear there.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    So why did 'Deck of cards' re-enter from January 1960?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Liverpool dethrones Liverpool, and The Beatles capture a second #1 single. But they are looking over their shoulder as yet another Liverpool act debut on the chart, Billy J. Kramer and the Dakotas and they are going to challenge in a few weeks.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending May 4th 1963

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 4th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    2 1 From Me To You - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    1 2 How Do You Do It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 2 2 2 2 2 9570
    3 3 From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller 3 3 3 3 3 9240
    9 4 Can't Get Used To Losing You - Andy Williams 4 5 5 4 6 8600
    4 5 Say I Won't Be There - The Springfields 6 7 4 7 5 8430
    5 6 Nobody's Darlin' But Mine - Frank Ifield 5 4 7 6 4 8360
    11 7 In Dreams - Roy Orbison 7 6 6 5 7 8270
    8 8 Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades 8 9 9 8 8 7340
    6 9 Brown Eyed Handsome Man - Buddy Holly 9 10 8 9 9 7310
    7 10 The Folk Singer - Tommy Roe 10 12 10 10 11 6700
    25 11 Scarlett O'Hara - Jet Harris and Tony Meehan 11 8 13 12 15 6430
    15 12 Losing You - Brenda Lee 12 13 12 13 13 6090
    12 13 Walk Like A Man - The Four Seasons 13 16 11 14 12 5920
    10 14 Foot Tapper - The Shadows 14 15 14 15 10 5580
    27 15 Two Kinds Of Teardrops - Del Shannon 15 11 17 11 17 5520
    13 16 Say Wonderful Things - Ronnie Carroll 17 17 15 18 16 4900
    21 17 He's So Fine - The Chiffons 18 14 18 17 18 4740
    14 18 Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard 16 19 16 16 14 4710
    16 19 Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury 19 24 19 20 19 3410
    18 20 Let's Turkey Trot / Old Smokey Locomotion - Little Eva 20 21 21 19 22 3370
    19 21 The End Of The World - Skeeter Davis 21 25 22 21 20 2780
    22 22 Island Of Dreams - The Springfields 22= 26 24 24 25 2080
    24 23 Count On Me - Julie Grant 24 23 25 26 27 2070
    17 24 Charmaine - The Bachelors 25= 20 21 1950
    20 25 Robot - The Tornados 22= 23 22 23 1890
    30 26 Casablanca - Kenny Ball 27 18 28 28 1840
    RE 27 Deck Of Cards - Wink Martindale 25= 20 29 25 29 1760
    26 28 So It Will Always Be - The Everly Brothers 28 30 27 23 26 1250
    NEW 29 Do You Want To Know A Secret - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas 30 22 900
    23 30 Mr Bass Man - Johnny Cymbal 26 30 780
    B Young Lovers - Paul and Paula 29 30 29 24 410
    B Pipeline - The Chantays 27 400
    B My Way - Eddie Cochran 28 30 350
    X It's My Way Of Loving You - Miki and Griff 29 200
    X Just Listen To My Heart - The Spotnicks 27 200
    29 Code Of Love - Mike Sarne 30 150
    X Some Other Guy - The Big Three 28 150
    28 That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown

    Leave a comment:

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