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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • 'Come Outside' is one of those records where those involved thought the idea was so good it had to be copied in the follow up, 'Will I What?'

    As Mike Sarne's next release 'Just For Kicks' was about driving a bike at 100mph, had it made the BBC Top 20 I think it would have been the first record to be banned from POTP.

    Comment


    • Yes Brian, by copying the dealer’s charts in London you will get the downwards too. If the task exceeds the motivation, maybe we should consider sharing the effort.

      Comment


      • Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending June 9th 1962

        The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending June 9th 1962 NME MM DISC RR Total
        Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 110 50 30 Points
        Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
        1 1 Good Luck Charm - Elvis Presley 1 1 1 1 1 8100
        2 2 I'm Looking Out The Window / Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard 2 3 2 2 2 7750
        5 3 Come Outside - Mike Sarne 3 2 3 3 4 7610
        3 4 Nut Rocker - B. Bumble and The Stingers 4 4 4 4 3 7320
        7 5 Ginny Come Lately - Brian Hyland 5= 5 6 5 7 6850
        4 6 As You Like It - Adam Faith 5= 7 5 6 5 6810
        8 7 Last Night Was Made For Love - Billy Fury 7 8 7 7 6 6430
        12 8 A Picture Of You - Joe Brown 8 5 9 9 10 6230
        9 9 I Don't Know Why - Eden Kane 9 9 8 8 9 6100
        6 10 Love Letters - Ketty Lester 10 11 10 11 11 5510
        10 11 Wonderful Land - The Shadows 11 14 11 12 8 5200
        13 12 The Green Leaves Of Summer - Kenny Ball 12 12 13 10 13 5090
        17 13 Lonely City - John Leyton 13 15 14 13 16 4500
        11 14 Speak To Me Pretty - Brenda Lee 15 17 15 15 15 4160
        15 15 Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk 14 13 12 12 4100
        20 16 Unsquare Dance - Dave Brubeck 17 19 16 16 18 3750
        16 17 The Wonderful World Of The Young - Danny Williams 20 21 19 17 19 3180
        21 18 How Can I Meet Her - The Everly Brothers 16 28 17 14 14 3140
        14 19 Hey Little Girl - Del Shannon 18 18 18 17 2890
        28 20 Deep In The Heart Of Texas - Duane Eddy 19 26 19 29 2170
        18 21 When My Little Girl Is Smiling - Jimmy Justice 22 20 24 2140
        27 22 Jezebel - Marty Wilde 29 21 20 23 2050
        25 23 Lover Please - The Vernons Girls 24 22 21 1850
        NEW 24 A Little Love A Little Kiss - Karl Denver 19 16 18 1850
        22 25 The Party's Over - Lonnie Donegan 23 20 1210
        NEW 26 Three Stars Will Shine Tonight - Richard Chamberlain 24 27 1000
        NEW 27 Besame Mucho - Jet Harris 25 22 930
        19 28 Let's Talk About Love - Helen Shapiro 24 26 920
        NEW 29 Ain't That Funny - Jimmy Justice 23 640
        NEW 30 Ginny Come Lately - Steve Perry 26 400
        24 Everybody's Twistin' - Frank Sinatra 29 27 340
        King Of Clowns - Neil Sedaka 28 330
        B Sharing You - Bobby Vee 27 320
        30 Never Goodbye - Karl Denver 25 180
        The River's Run Dry - Vince Hill 29 160
        23 Hey Baby - Bruce Channel 30 110
        Young World - Ricky Nelson 28 90
        29 Can't Help Falling In Love / Rock-A-Hula Baby - Elvis Presley 30 30
        Do You Want To - Dance - Cliff Richard 10
        26 Dream Baby - Roy Orbison
        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

        Comment


        • Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending June 16th 1962

          The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending June 16th 1962 NME MM DISC RR Total
          Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 110 50 30 Points
          Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
          1 1 Good Luck Charm - Elvis Presley 1 1 1 1 1 8100
          2 2 I'm Looking Out The Window / Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard 2 3 2 2 2 7750
          3 3 Come Outside - Mike Sarne 3 2 3 3 3 7640
          8 4 A Picture Of You - Joe Brown 4 4 4 6 4 7190
          5 5 Ginny Come Lately - Brian Hyland 5 5 5 4 9 6950
          7 6 Last Night Was Made For Love - Billy Fury 7 6 5 7 8 6750
          4 7 Nut Rocker - B. Bumble and The Stingers 6 8 7 5 5 6560
          6 8 As You Like It - Adam Faith 8 7 8 8 6 6350
          9 9 I Don't Know Why - Eden Kane 9 9 9 9 7 6000
          12 10 The Green Leaves Of Summer - Kenny Ball 10 10 11 10 10 5560
          15 11 Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk 11 13 10 11 11 5350
          10 12 Love Letters - Ketty Lester 12 16 12 15 13 4630
          13 13 Lonely City - John Leyton 13 21 13 13 14 4190
          16 14 Unsquare Dance - Dave Brubeck 16= 15 14 20 17 4120
          11 15 Wonderful Land - The Shadows 14 19 16 12 15 4040
          26 16 Three Stars Will Shine Tonight - Richard Chamberlain 18 14 17 17 23 3840
          18 17 How Can I Meet her - The Everly Brothers 15 23 15 16 12 3720
          17 18 The Wonderful World Of The Young - Danny Williams 20 18 20 19 22 3120
          24 19 A Little Love A Little Kiss - Karl Denver 16= 11 29 14 20 3000
          22 20 Jezebel - Marty Wilde 25 18 19 2270
          29 21 Ain't That Funny - Jimmy Justice 19 17 28 18 30 2130
          14 22 Speak To Me Pretty - Brenda Lee 27 19 21 1940
          23 23 Lover Please - The Vernons Girls 21 16 1550
          NEW 24 Sharing You - Bobby Vee 22 27 18 1550
          20 25 Deep In The Heart Of Texas - Duane Eddy 29 22 24 1360
          27 26 Besame Much - Jet Harris 23 25 1060
          NEW 27 Follow That Dream (EP) - Elvis Presley 19 960
          19 28 Hey Little Girl - Del Shannon 28 25 900
          NEW 29 Soldier Boy - The Shirelles 30 24 850
          NEW 30 English Country Garden - Jimmie Rodgers 30 26 630
          21 When My Little Girl Is Smiling - Jimmy Justice 26 30 28 600
          B I Can't Stop Loving You - Ray Charles 24 560
          Far Away - Shirley Bassey 26 150
          25 The Party's Over - Lonnie Donegan 27 120
          Funny Way Of Laughin' - Burl Ives 29 60
          Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard 12
          28 Let's Talk About Love - Helen Shapiro
          30 Ginny Come Lately - Steve Perry
          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

          Comment


          • Something strange happened to "Follow That Dream" in Record Retailer – not that one should be surprised when it comes to their chart. It shows up on the singles chart the following week but never climbs higher than #34, disappearing after just two weeks in the top 50. RR didn't usually allow EPs on their singles chart. The position it got there was much lower than in either NME or Disc (the record never charted in Melody Maker which still had a separate EP chart) – could some of the EP sales have been counted towards a nonexistent single? The earliest single release I can find for that song anywhere in the world is a Canadian release from 1985, so it couldn't have charted thanks to import copies either...

            Comment


            • It was the EP that was charting on Record Retailer. I don't know why the paper charted the single when EPs were relegated to their own chart.

              Comment


              • Looks like the decision not to include EPs in their singles chart was made only after it had been there for 2 weeks, whereupon it was quietly removed.

                Comment


                • That's right, 'Follow That Dream' was the EP that was removed from the RR chart and which led to a ban on EPs charting in the singles chart until the end of 1967. When BMRB began to compile the singles chart in February 1969 EPs (of four tracks or more) were once again ineligible and remained ineligible until the mid 1970s.

                  Comment


                  • I suppose until 'Follow That Dream' RR had not given much thought to whether EPs and LPs should be allowed into the singles chart.

                    NME continued having LPs in their singles chart after starting their LP Chart, so the 'non duplication' rule was not universal.

                    Comment


                    • I realise 'singles chart' is an inaccurate description as it includes: '

                      - only singles (eg RR 1962-7)

                      - singles and EPs (eg MM after May 1963)

                      - all records (eg NME)

                      Comment


                      • Funnily enough Splodj, just as it is today, as the so-called 'singles' chart is actually calculated not just by titles issued either digitally or physically as a 'single' proper, but also digital tracks on single, EP or album bundles not issued as a 'lead' single, associated variations/re-recordings/re-mixes of a title, its online audio streams and video streams! Although for continuity - and for some of us because it'd be a hard habit to break after so many years - we tend to still call it a singles chart, clearly it should at the least be re-branded to be a 'tracks' chart to render it more accurate a reflection of what it now seeks to cover (and should've been back in Jan '07 when they began counting any sale of any digital track regardless of formatting or promotional status).

                        Many would often assume things music-wise were so much simpler back in the 1960s, but it's not entirely true! The melee of different papers' charts and inconsistencies in the way all went about producing them certainly lay that bare (I guess it's why the Guinness guys were so keen to cut away these jagged edges and just present a convenient single source of truth when producing their Hit Singles books and fatefully chose to adopt RR as the chart of record over all others).

                        With regard to the 'Follow That Dream' incident, could it not have just been a case of RR chart compiler error, that once spotted on week 3 was rectified? In the same way as we like to think such things can't happen nowadays thanks to the reliability and consistency that computerisation brought when it replaced a lot of human error-prone interactions in the compilation of charts, we know that we're kidding ourselves there too, as the very recent debacle over "the new JLS single" (which was never apparently rectified by the OCC) sadly only goes to show.

                        Comment


                        • On 5 July 1962 a note with the Singles chart reads 'Due to difficulties in assessing returns of Follow That Dream EP, it has been decided not to include it in Britain's Top 50. It is of course No. 1 on the EP charts.' That's all that RR stated when they stopped including it in the chart.
                          http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                          Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                          Comment


                          • NME chart
                            3 I'm Looking Out The Window - Cliff Richard
                            12 Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard

                            Was NME the only chart that allowed both sides to chart?

                            Comment


                            • By this time , yes Brian. All the other charts stopped charting split sides back in the late fifties but NME continued this practise of charting split sides until the very late 60's
                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                              Comment


                              • Yeah the Follow That Dream is a strange one, I would have thought it an error too until I saw the entry Lonnie referred to explaining removal due to difficulty in tracking sales.

                                I'm inclined to wonder if RR had a mind to include EP's in the 'singles' chart at this time but the difficulty in assessing returns for the Elvis EP for inclusion in the 'singles' chart put them off and they reverted to a policy of non inclusion again.
                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                Comment


                                • The statement merely invites the question of how the difficulty of assessing returns affects the singles chart and not the EPs chart.

                                  Comment


                                  • Yes it really does!
                                    http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                    Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                                    Comment


                                    • I think RR had difficulty assessing returns full stop
                                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                      Comment


                                      • I have the contemporary EP hit 'Little Pieces of Hancock'. Illustrating the difficulty of defining an EP by the number of tracks, this has only two - one on each side. As did his LPs later!

                                        My view is that the MM May 63+ position was the best - include EPs with singles and keep LPs separate. A simple 'size' delineation.

                                        Comment


                                        • These differences also affect any composite chart by moving the positions of other records. For example, I believe there was a period when NME had 3 double A sides in their chart; so the records below them were placed up to 3 places lower than they would have been if NME had a policy of combining.

                                          Comment


                                          • I agree, MM policy was the correct and sensible approach, and you don't need to tell me about the difficulty working with NME and their split sides lol , they are a nightmare to work with. But, I manage it as best I can using the averaging system of the other charts where the NME split is disadvantageous to its overall position.
                                            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                            Comment


                                            • Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending June 23rd 1962

                                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending June 23rd 1962 NME MM DISC RR Total
                                              Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 110 50 30 Points
                                              Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                              1 1 Good Luck Charm - Elvis Presley 1 2 1 1 1 8020
                                              3 2 Come Outside - Mike Sarne 2 1 3 2 2 7800
                                              2 3 I'm Looking Out The Window / Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard 3 4 2 3 3 7590
                                              4 4 A Picture Of You - Joe Brown 4 3 4 4 4 7370
                                              5 5 Ginny Come Lately - Brian Hyland 5 5 6 5 5 6910
                                              6 6 Last Night Was Made For Love - Billy Fury 6 6 5 6 6 6860
                                              9 7 I Don't Know Why - Eden Kane 7 7 8 7 7 6370
                                              8 8 As You Like It - Adam Faith 8 9 7 9 8 6190
                                              7 9 Nut Rocker - B. Bumble and The Stingers 9 10 9 8 9 5910
                                              16 10 Three Stars Will Shine Tonight - Richard Chamberlain 10= 11 12 10 12 5310
                                              10 11 The Green Leaves Of Summer - Kenny Ball 10= 14 10 11 10 5300
                                              11 12 Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk 12 15 11 14 11 4930
                                              NEW 13 I Can't Stop Loving You - Ray Charles 13 8 17 15 16 4630
                                              14 14 Unsquare Dance - Dave Brubeck 15= 20 13 18 14 4020
                                              13 15 Lonely City - John Leyton 14 25 14 12 15 3780
                                              17 16 How Can I Meet Her - The Everly Brothers 15= 22 15 16 13 3770
                                              19 17 A Little Love A Little Kiss - Karl Denver 18 17 20 13 23 3470
                                              21 18 Ain't That Funny - Jimmy Justice 17 13 23 17 18 3410
                                              30 19 English Country Garden - Jimmie Rodgers 19 22 19 21 2850
                                              20 20 Jezebel - Marty Wilde 23 18 20 2400
                                              24 21 Sharing You - Bobby Vee 18 21 25 2320
                                              15 22 Wonderful Land - The Shadows 19 20 26 2020
                                              12 23 Love Letters - Ketty Lester 20 16 22 1920
                                              18 24 The Wonderful World Of The Young - Danny Williams 21 26 24 1560
                                              27 25 Follow That Dream (EP) - Elvis Presley 19 16 1200
                                              23 26 Lover Please - The Vernons Girls 24 17 1190
                                              NEW 27 Yes My Darling Daughter - Eydie Gorme 23 27 1080
                                              29 28 Soldier Boy - The Shirelles 27 25 28 1070
                                              25 29 Deep In The Heart Of Texas - Duane Eddy 30 19 470
                                              NEW 30 Here Comes That Feeling - Brenda Lee 26 400
                                              Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard 12
                                              Far Away - Shirley Bassey 28 27 360
                                              26 Besame Mucho - Jet Harris 28 330
                                              22 Speak To Me Pretty - Brenda Lee 29 29 280
                                              Conscience - James Darren 28 240
                                              The River's Run Dry - Vince Hill 28 240
                                              Orange Blossom Special - The Spotnicks 30 30
                                              28 Hey Little Girl - Del Shannon
                                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                              Comment


                                              • Richard Chamberlain (Dr. Kildare) betters Johnny Spence's orchestral theme to the Dr. Kildare TV show, which peaked at #14 earlier in the year, by taking his vocal version into the Top 10.
                                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                                Comment


                                                • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                                                  The statement merely invites the question of how the difficulty of assessing returns affects the singles chart and not the EPs chart.
                                                  I would have thought that was obvious. RR asked dealers to list the EP sales separately as well as listing their best sellers overall. However as dealers were listing the records as best sellers, not individual, till BMRB came along in 1969, some dealers were putting in the EP's and some were not. As the Record Retailer chart only used a small amount of dealers, which were rotated, this would have caused odd patterns of sales of these EP's and so RR removed them from it's calculations. They could have told dealers to not put them in, but people filling in the form tend to not read instructions, so do it anyway.

                                                  I have said this before about the NME, the returns they got back would have included some dealers who used one side of a record and the others used the other and more popular side. Other dealers put in albums, as they were thick as two planks of wood! It's likely that only a small number of shops put the albums in. As some of these albums would have outsold the singles that week and if they had all put the album in, it would have topped the chart!
                                                  Though the other chart makers decided to remove the duplicated sides and albums. We don't know if these chart makers added the shops (that had used the other side) to the calculations, or just ignored them completely.
                                                  I suspect that nearly all the double A sides were never listed twice in the same return. Though it's possible.
                                                  Of course we can speculate why NME didn't remove listing both sides and why it allowed the albums. First there's the fairness angle. This shows how popular tracks are by listing both sides. And the same with albums not being excluded. This shows that the NME people are editing the charts to exclude any seller. Whereas if this was the reason, NME could have argued the other charts are not showing the true reflection of the sales returns they get back. The other reason for the NME not doing this is that they didn't want to sort them out for time reasons, or just could not being bothered!

                                                  BMRB got round this problem by asking the dealers to write in the record label number for example Columbia DB4828.
                                                  Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                                  Comment


                                                  • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                                                    I have the contemporary EP hit 'Little Pieces of Hancock'. Illustrating the difficulty of defining an EP by the number of tracks, this has only two - one on each side. As did his LPs later!

                                                    My view is that the MM May 63+ position was the best - include EPs with singles and keep LPs separate. A simple 'size' delineation.
                                                    The problem is that EP's were original meant to be albums that saved space for the consumer. And there was a battle between the format of LP and EP. - The EP lost!
                                                    Many EP's like the above were nothing to do with popular music at all and were a problem for Radio too.
                                                    The Compilers of the Real Chart excluded records such as the Hancock EP above, since it wasn't a song or popular tune. Fortunately EP's were more expensive than singles, but they would have caused problems in the few weeks to Christmas, had they not been excluded. LP's were never included in the Real Chart, or anything that was really an album. Sparky the talking piano, was on a set of records in the late 40's and early 50's that was an album in reality!
                                                    Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                                    Comment

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