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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I think what we need to remember is that the BMRB as well as compiling a chart for the BBC and BPI also sampled and reported on surveys for many other companies. So, if they were minded to compile a list of the best selling singles from data received they should have combined the sales of Je T'aime on both labels from the very start to give an overall picture of its best selling status. That would have made sense to everyone who wanted to know 'bestsellers' but the BMRB didn't have the wherewithal, experience, or insider knowledge to do this. So they simply saw each label as a 'product' and reported on this as they would with the best selling brands of cornflakes so separated them in the chart.

    This was a major flaw with asking BMRB to compile the chart. It was just another product to them and not a dedicated chart service.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    There was not a rule change in the intervening years, because 'Leader of the pack' was separated for 2 weeks before being combined.

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    RR's decision to separate 'Je t'aime' but combine 'Leader of the pack' was illogical. 'Je t'aime' was identical on both sides. Whereas 'Leader of the pack' had different B-sides, and the A sides differed in that the Contempo version had been made into a botched form of stereo which omitted the line "One day my dad said find someone new".
    True - but that was 6 years apart. Could it be a rule change meant they did combine same A-Side? We saw recently how the Ed Sheeran Rule means only 3 tracks can now chart at the same time, so this could be a similar rule change to avoid this sort of thing happening again.

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  • kjell
    replied
    Hi Brian. Been down to the cabin last week to start repairs after last winters mouse invasion, the first I’ve ever encountered. I’m therefore late to join the fascinating discussion about combining sales of two sided differently ranked sides. Earlier I’ve taken interest in the song and the performance, not the record as such. Interesting disclosure of the combined sales of the same recording on different labels. In my younger days I used to follow the competition between different artists releasing the same song at about the same time. Remember I was puzzled when Ken Dodd and Karl Denver’s charted with Still when the composer Bill Anderson’s original version didn’t hit at all.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    RR's decision to separate 'Je t'aime' but combine 'Leader of the pack' was illogical. 'Je t'aime' was identical on both sides. Whereas 'Leader of the pack' had different B-sides, and the A sides differed in that the Contempo version had been made into a botched form of stereo which omitted the line "One day my dad said find someone new".

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  • membranemusic
    replied
    Re Je T’Aime Moi Non Plus

    I note the comments on this quandary. It is a unique moment in chart history, only matched by lower entries over the ages. I was not aware that BMRB had combined the 2 records for the broadcast chart, which is interesting. It is entirely rational to take these figures for the UAC, so that’s fine.

    However, the printed chart kept them separate and back in the day, these are the figures I used for the straight average chart, as I concurred with their business logic. You may say how did I make an average? A: with difficulty.

    For interest for some, here are the separate positions on the straight average chart:
    Starting from 20 Sep 1969:
    Fontana: No. 4

    27 Sep 1969:
    Fontana: No. 2
    Major Minor: Joint 18

    4 Oct 1969:
    Fontana: Joint 7
    Major Minor: No. 3

    11 Oct 1969:
    Fontana: Out of the Top 30
    Major Minor: No. 3

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending November 1st 1969

    Here are all 'the uppers, the downers, the just hangin' arounders'

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending November 1st 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    3 1 Sugar Sugar - The Archies 1 1 1 16500
    4 2 He Ain't Heavy He's My Brother - The Hollies 2 2 3 15850
    2 3 I'm Gonna Make You Mine - Lou Christie 3 3 2 15500
    9 4 Oh Well - Fleetwood Mac 5 4 4 14650
    1 5 I'll Never Fall In Love Again - Bobbie Gentry 4 5 6 14400
    6 6 Space Oddity - David Bowie 6 6 5 13850
    5 7 Je T'aime..Moi Non Plus - Jane Birkin and Serge Gainsbourg 7 7 9 13000
    10 8 Nobody's Child - Karen Young 8 10 7 12250
    15 9 Return Of Django - The Upsetters 12 8 8 11850
    8 10 A Boy Named Sue - Johnny Cash 9 12 10 11250
    7 11 Lay Lady Lay - Bob Dylan 13 9 11 11100
    22 12 Delta Lady - Joe Cocker 14 11 12 10300
    17 13 Love's Been Good To Me - Frank Sinatra 10 14 13 10250
    13 14 Do What You Gotta Do - The Four Tops 11 13 14 10200
    11 15 It's Getting Better - Mama Cass 16 15 15 8600
    12 16 Bad Moon Rising - Creedence Clearwater Revival 15 16 16 8450
    14 17 Good Morning Starshine - Oliver 19 18 17 7050
    20 18 Everybody'd Talkin' - Nilsson 17 17 24 7000
    18 19 Love At First Sight - Sounds Nice 21 19 21 6000
    NEW 20 Wonderful World Beautiful People - Jimmy Cliff 20 22 18 5750
    19 21 Don't Forget To Remember - The Bee Gees 22 21 19 5500
    30 22 What Does It Take - Junior Walker and The All Stars 18 25 22 5000
    29 23 Long Shot Kick The Bucket - The Pioneers 24 23 23 4200
    16 24 Throw Down A Line - Cliff Richard and Hank Marvin 26 20 28 4050
    25 25 And The Sun Will Shine - Jose Feliciano 25 23 25 3800
    NEW 26 The Liquidator - Harry J All Stars 23 28 2350
    21 27 Hare Krishna Mantra - The Radha Krishna Temple 26 29 1450
    23 28 Put Yourself In My Place - The Isley Brothers 28 30 26 1350
    NEW 29 Sweet Dream - Jethro Tull 27 29 1300
    24 30 I Second That Emotion - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations 27 30 1100
    B (Call Me) Number One - The Tremeloes 20 1100
    X Penny Arcade - Roy Orbison 28 27 1000
    X Gin Gan Goolie - The Scaffold 30 200
    26 In The Year 2525 - Zager and Evans
    27 Too Busy Thinking About Me Baby - Marvin Gaye
    28 Cloud Nine - The Temptations

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    I'm glad you decided to contrinue to 1971 as it is interesting to compare the 3 charts as well as get an aggregate like the UAC does. I of course also want to see the 56-59....

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    I think as well as Robbie - the debate arises from the differences rather than the similarities. ONe think I look for is when one record is out of place causing the rest to also then be out of place.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    What I don't understand is why, if 100 are viewing it, more don't post.
    I agree there Splodj. I would encourage other guys as well as those of you who regularly comment on the charts to add comments. It makes the topic more interesting to raise debate which in itself welcomes more comments and from my perspective makes the effort worthwhile.

    Thanks too for your continued appreciation Robin, Robbie, Lonnie and brain for your supportive comments and likes above. Further to this then I will continue with 69 to 71.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    I would have more interest in post-1969 than pre-1960 right now, but still would want to see both. I'm checking in every day, but am really busy right now with other stuff so don't have much time to think about adding comments...

    I don't know what your chart posting rate is currently Brian, but like I said before, my thinking is if you post only 1 chart per day, you'll end up getting more total comments than if you post 2 charts per day. Thanks for all you do, and continue to rock on !!

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    I would like the UAC to continue beyond 1969. At the moment the three charts have more in common, hence less comments. I believe that 1970 has more variance so I would like to see a UAC for 1970 too. That leaves the question of the cut-off point for when to stop doing the UAC in the 1970s. I think early 1971 had been mentioned. A pivotal point seems to have been the ending of the national postal strike which affected chart returns in February and part of March 1971. When the strike ended the BMRB appear to have developed more robust procedures in for ensuring a sufficient amount of chart returns from shops. Perhaps that was the point where the BMRB chart became more widely accepted?

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  • Splodj
    replied
    What I don't understand is why, if 100 are viewing it, more don't post.

    I think the post-BMRB pattern has been established, and is well illustrated by 'Sugar Sugar'. Once again BMRB is the first to identify a strong number one. I imagine this is because it sold so much more rapidly than other records in key stores and this was not detected by the points system.

    Also, BMRB will keep 'Sugar Sugar' at the top longer than the others. Towards the end of its reign NME will have 3 alternative one-week number ones. It is understandable that as its strength faded this created opportunities for rivals to outscore it on the points system under its 'levelling' effect.
    Last edited by Splodj; Sat July 3, 2021, 09:47.

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    It may also have coincided with more going back to work and having less time for this sort of thing...

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I don't think the 'fun' UAC is proving as popular post BMRB (maybe not as relevant to most guys as before and therefore in retrospect maybe not so good an idea). Before then it was taking around 200 to 250 hits a day but on some days now it's lucky to be getting up to 100. When I finish 1969 and I can actually post these much quicker to get through them would you guys rather I left it there and reverted to the original plan of doing 56 - 59 thus completing the original project ?

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 25th 1969

    Here are all 'the uppers, the downers, the just hangin' arounders'

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 25th 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 I'll Never Fall In Love Again - Bobbie Gentry 1 1 2 16400
    7 2 I'm Gonna Make You Mine - Lou Christie 2 2 3 15850
    14 3 Sugar Sugar - The Archies 4 3 1 15400
    6 4 He Ain't Heavy He's My Brother - The Hollies 3 4 5 14950
    2 5 Je T'aime..Moi Non Plus - Jane Birkin and Serge Gainsbourg 5 7 4 13900
    10 6 Space Oddity - David Bowie 7 5 6 13800
    4 7 Lay Lady Lay - Bob Dylan 8 6 9 13050
    3 8 A Boy Named Sue - Johnny Cash 6 8 10 12850
    13 9 Oh Well - Fleetwood Mac 9 9 8 12200
    8 10 Nobody's Child - Karen Young 10 10 7 11850
    9 11 It's Getting Better - Mama Cass 12 11 14 10500
    5 12 Bad Moon Rising - Creedence Clearwater Revival 11 12 18 10050
    17 13 Do What You Gotta Do - The Four Tops 14 13 11 9900
    12 14 Good Morning Starshine - Oliver 13 14 12 9750
    26 15 Return Of Django - The Upsetters 15 16 17 8350
    11 16 Throw Down A Line - Cliff Richard and Hank Marvin 18 15 15 8200
    24 17 Love's Been Good To Me - Frank Sinatra 17 17 13 8100
    19 18 Love At First Sight - Sounds Nice 16 18 19 7450
    15 19 Don't Forget To Remember - The Bee Gees 20 19 16 6700
    25 20 Everybody's Talkin' - Nilsson 19 21 23 5700
    16 21 Hare Krishna Mantra - The Radha Krishna Temple 21 20 22 5650
    NEW 22 Delta Lady - Joe Cocker 23 24 20 4450
    18 23 Put Yourself In My Place - The Isley Brothers 24 23 21 4400
    20 24 I Second That Emotion - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations 25 22 28 3750
    NEW 25 And The Sun Will Shine - Jose Feliciano 22 28 30 2650
    21 26 In The Year 2525 - Zager and Evans 25 25 2100
    23 27 Too Busy Thinking About My Baby - Marvin Gaye 26 27 1400
    27 28 Cloud Nine - The Temptations 26 1250
    NEW 29 Long Shot Kick The Bucket - The Pioneers 27 1000
    NEW 30 What Does It Take - Junior Walker and The All Stars 27 29 1000
    28 Viva Bobby Joe - The Equals 30 24 950
    B Wonderful World Beautiful People - Jimmy Cliff 29 500
    X Penny Arcade - Roy Orbison 28 600
    X For Once In My Life - Dorothy Squires 26 500
    30 The Hunt - Barry Ryan 29 400
    Soul Deep - The Box Tops 30 200
    29 Golden Slumbers/Carry That Weight - Trash 30 200
    22 Natural Born Bugie - Humble Pie

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Nilsson's biggest moment of glory will come three years later but meantime his first hit which debuts this week is almost remembered just as much.
    Trash, in the absence of The Beatles' own version from Abbey Road take their cover into the Top 30.
    Barry Ryan attempts another epic, although not in the same class as Eloise I thought it deserved to do better than it's chart peak of 30 here.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 18th 1969

    Here are all 'the uppers, the downers, the just hangin' arounders'

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 18th 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 I'll Never Fall In Love Again - Bobbie Gentry 1 1 1 16500
    3 2 Je T'aime..Moi Non Plus - Jane Birkin and Serge Gainsbourg 2 2 2 15950
    4 3 A Boy Named Sue - Johnny Cash 3 3 4 15300
    5 4 Lay Lady Lay - Bob Dylan 4 4 7 14550
    2 5 Bad Moon Rising - Creedence Clearwater Revival 5 5 12 13600
    20 6 He Ain't Heavy He's My Brother - The Hollies 7 7 5 13400
    12 7 I'm Gonna Make You Mine - Lou Christie 6 9 3 13300
    10 8 Nobody's Child - Karen Young 8 8 6 12850
    9 9 It's Getting Better - Mama Cass 11 6 13 12050
    13 10 Space Oddity - David Bowie 9 10 8 11950
    6 11 Throw Down A Line - Cliff Richard and Hank MARVIN 10 11 14 10900
    8 12 Good Morning Starshine - Oliver 13 11 10 10700
    21 13 Oh Well - Fleetwood Mac 12 13 9 10500
    29 14 Sugar Sugar - The Archies 14 16 11 9150
    7 15 Don't Forget To Remember - The Bee Gees 15 14 16 8950
    11 16 Hare Krishna Mantra - Radha Krishna Temple 16 15 15 8600
    22 17 Do What You Gotta Do - The Four Tops 17 17 17 7700
    16 18 Put Yourself In My Place - The Isley Brothers 18 18 22 6750
    19 19 Love At First Sight - Sounds Nice 20 19 18 6500
    18 20 I Second That Emotion - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations 21 20 19 5950
    14 21 In The Year 2525 - Zager and Evans 24 23 23 4200
    15 22 Natural Born Bugie - Humble Pie 25 21 27 4100
    17 23 Too Busy Thinking About My Baby - Marvin Gaye 22 25 24 4000
    NEW 24 Love's Been Good To Me - Frank Sinatra 23 26 21 3850
    NEW 25 Everybody's Talkin' - Nilsson 19 27 3400
    NEW 26 Return Of Django - The Upsetters 22 20 3350
    24 27 Cloud Nine - The Temptations 26 24 2750
    23 28 Viva Bobby Joe - The Equals 28 25 1350
    NEW 29 Golden Slumbers/Carry That Weight - Trash 27 800
    NEW 30 The Hunt - Barry Ryan 28 600
    25 Soul Deep - The Box Tops 29 500
    X For Once In My Life - Dorothy Squires 26 500
    28 Am I The Same Girl - Dusty Springfield 29 400
    B And The Sun Will Shine - Jose Feliciano 28 300
    27 My Cherie Amour - Stevie Wonder 30 250
    Saved By The Bell - Robin Gibb 29 200
    X Penny Arcade - Roy Orbison 30 200
    B Delta Lady - Joe Cocker 30 100
    26 Birth - The Peddlers
    30 Honky Tonk Women - The Rolling Stones

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    [QUOTE=Splodj;n10658163]The alternative chart was broadcast by the BBC, so was 'published' - in the same way that non-printed material like music is published. I see it as an amendment that the BBC requested ("we can't not play that twice!") which BMRB agreed to and it is what the overwhelming majority of people will have seen and heard as BMRBs placing of the record that week./QUOTE]

    Yeah I remember POTP placing but not playing Je T'aime at number two that week obviously because they wanted it listed in just one position but yeah chart history since reverts to the split positions.
    My memory was proved correct when Dave Taylor supplied me with the alternative chart. I felt it was fairer to use that for The Ultimate Chart.

    On the alternative charts Roy Orbison was at 50 with Penny Arcade on the 4th, and on the 11th Dusty Springfield was at 50 with Am I The Same girl.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Looking back at page 102 where the alternative Top 50s for the two weeks are listed, a question occurs ...

    Why did BMRB recalculate the complete 50?

    For w/e 4-Oct all the BBC would need were the combined position and the new number 30. For w/e 11-Oct the BBC would not need anything; the combined position could not be higher than number one, and the Fontana version at 33 would not present any risk of double mentions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    The alternative chart was broadcast by the BBC, so was 'published' - in the same way that non-printed material like music is published. I see it as an amendment that the BBC requested ("we can't not play that twice!") which BMRB agreed to and it is what the overwhelming majority of people will have seen and heard as BMRBs placing of the record that week.

    Incidentally - as Je T'aime was originally recorded when Gainsbourg had an affair with Brigitte Bardot, it is a pity Mike Sarne didn't do a 'Come Outside' style duet with her when they had an affair!!

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    The alternative chart was never published and since the accepted history has bene to use what Music Week prints therefore that's the way the chart is recorded for history. In 1976 they fixed this and combined Leader of The Pack, presumably because Radio 1 would have said "we can't play the same song twice".

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  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

    BMRB actually compiled an alternative chart for that week brain which combined both versions so i used that as it represented a total for it rather than
    split positions. It never topped NME or MM.
    Thanks for your response, I was not aware of this. I always remember seeing the original chart (in Tony Jaspers Top Twenty book) and thinking what a screw up. Good to know there's an alternative one. So being at both 3 and 16 was not enough to overhaul the no.1...

    OCC uses the original, how about Guinness? BTW what's position 50 on the alternative chart (as everything else should be the 'same').

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    BTW how did you handle the fact that Je T'aime was at 3 and 16 in the BMRB due to different record labels, on the 4th October (looks like you had it only at 2 and shifted everything up below 16?).
    So Je T'aime was not a no.1 on NME or MM?
    BMRB actually compiled an alternative chart for that week brain which combined both versions so i used that as it represented a total for it rather than
    split positions. It never topped NME or MM.
    Last edited by MrTibbs; Thu July 1, 2021, 14:18. Reason:

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  • braindeadpj
    replied
    BTW how did you handle the fact that Je T'aime was at 3 and 16 in the BMRB due to different record labels, on the 4th October (looks like you had it only at 2 and shifted everything up below 16?).
    So Je T'aime was not a no.1 on NME or MM?
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Thu July 1, 2021, 14:03.

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