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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • There is always a tendency to want artists that one admires to perform well in the charts, but the truth about Love Me Do is that RR was an outlier in placing it as high as 17. I believe it peaked at 24 in the BBC one and therefore not played or even mentioned on POTP as it never made the 20. Ironic really because the Beatles first record getting to 17 is one of the most widely quoted chart 'facts'.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
      There is always a tendency to want artists that one admires to perform well in the charts, but the truth about Love Me Do is that RR was an outlier in placing it as high as 17. I believe it peaked at 24 in the BBC one and therefore not played or even mentioned on POTP as it never made the 20. Ironic really because the Beatles first record getting to 17 is one of the most widely quoted chart 'facts'.
      And that just shows how the difference between a chart counting sales and a chart based on points is highly important. For in the Real Chart Love Me Do made number four. If you want proof of how inaccurate a point based chart can be all you have to do is look at the first BMRB chart using sales rather than points and compare that with the same week points based charts. For you find that the number one on the first BMRB chart was unique to it and many of the others had the same record outside the top three. No wonder that Melody Maker were defending their chart a few weeks later!
      Of course they ALL had the record top the following week, but that doesn't matter. Melody Maker even had records that were not even in the BMRB top 50 or the NME's chart either! And the argument about having more shops on the panel (that Brian uses) doesn't wash, since it can put record in these charts that shouldn't be in the top 30 and keep others out.
      As a matter of interest I had a look yesterday at the 45 Cat site and put in the highest owns for the months of October and November 1962 (UK only). Even taking out the Embassy records, there's a hell of a lot of 45 that have 20+ that did not go near the charts of the day. And when you take into account the results are limited to 50 cutting off around 17 then it says something. For example just now I picked a record at random which has 30 on it and it didn't chart!
      Not some obscure record but:
      Sandy Nelson …And Then There Were Drums
      Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

      Comment


      • Sales for Beatles Love me do were originally 116,227 copies, so it should have been much higher in the NME chart than just one week at number 27.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
          Sales for Beatles Love me do were originally 116,227 copies, so it should have been much higher in the NME chart than just one week at number 27.
          It charted a few weeks ago and then vanished, never to be seen again (until 1982). Could it have been excluded? Or perhaps it just never sold enough in NME's chart shops to rechart back in 1962.

          Comment


          • Sorry to be sacrilegious but IMO 'Love Me Do' isn't a particularly strong single and quite lucky to get as high as it did.....

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Metalweb View Post
              Sorry to be sacrilegious but IMO 'Love Me Do' isn't a particularly strong single and quite lucky to get as high as it did.....
              I think it was an average single certainly by what was to come, Please Please Me was an improvement but for me, From Me To You, started the brilliant streak that went on and on as they got better and better.

              My biggest disappointment was in 1970 when EMI, or Apple, or The Beatles themselves, refused to release The Long And Winding Road as a single in the UK. I thought it was, and is, a stunning song and would have been a fitting final UK #1 for The Fab Four.
              The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

              The Biggest Chart Of The Time

              Comment


              • A record in the lower ranges for a long time can sell a lot. Love Me Do was 18 weeks in the RR Top 50 and I suspect would have spent a similar length in an NME 50 if they'd had one. For all we know it was lurking just under their 30 at this time.

                I think the first really great Beatles tracks were Please Please Me, I Saw Her Standing There and Twist & Shout. The EP of the latter was the 5th biggest selling record of 1963 but has been airbrushed from 'official' chart history.

                Martin couldn't have released it as a single because of the Beatles self-composition desire. In any case there wasn't really a gap for it as the hits started coming so fast that intended A-sides were repeatedly trumped by better songs.

                Comment


                • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                  Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 1st 1962

                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 1st 1962 NME MM DISC RR Total
                  Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 110 50 30 Points
                  Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                  1 1 Lovesick Blues / She Taught Me How To Yodel - Frank Ifield 1 1 1 1 1 8100
                  2 2 Let's Dance - Chris Montez 2 2 2 2 4 7770
                  3 3 The Swiss Maid - Del Shannon 3 3 3 3 2 7590
                  5 4 Bobby's Girl - Susan Maughan 4 4 5 4 3 7210
                  4 5 Telstar - The Tornados 6 7 4 5 9 6850
                  8 6 Devil Woman - Marty Robbins 5 6 7 6 5 6670
                  13 7 Sun Arise - Rolf Harris 8 8 6 10 8 6330
                  12 8 (Dance With The) Guitar Man - Duane Eddy 7 8 9 8 6 6160
                  7 9 Sherry - The Four Seasons 10 11 8 11 13 5670
                  6 10 Venus In Blue Jeans - Mark Wynter 9 12 10 9 7 5650
                  10 11 No One Can Make My Sunshine Smile - The Everly Brothers 11 10 11 12 11 5430
                  9 12 The Loco-Motion - Little Eva 12 14 13 14 10 4820
                  11 13 Ramblin' Rose - Nat King Cole 13 16 14 13 12 4540
                  17 14 The 'James Bond' Theme - John Barry 14 15 12 17 16 4520
                  16 15 Oh Lonesome Me - Craig Douglas 16 17 15 20 15 3910
                  NEW 16 Return To Sender - Elvis Presley 15 5 28 7 26 3760
                  21 17 A Forever Kind Of Love - Bobby Vee 17= 12 24 16 25 3220
                  19 18 Must Be Madison - Joe Loss 20 20 17 21 24 3130
                  18 19 Love Me Tender - Richard Chamberlain 17= 22 19 19 17 3060
                  25 20 The Main Attraction - Pat Boone 19 17 21 26 14 2980
                  15 21 It Might As Well Rain Until September - Carole King 21 25 18 22 18 2750
                  14 22 Sheila - Tommy Roe 22 28 16 23 22 2560
                  20 23 Because Of Love - Billy Fury 25 21 20 24 2360
                  27 24 Desafinado - Stan Getz and Charlie Byrd 23 24 25 15 27 2140
                  30 25 It Only Took A Minute - Joe Brown 24 19 27 28 20 1880
                  23 26 I Remember You - Frank Ifield 26= 30 22 19 1430
                  22 27 What Now My Love - Shirley Bassey 26= 23 25 23 1420
                  NEW 28 Rockin' Around The Christmas Tree - Brenda Lee 28 23 18 30 1320
                  26 29 Love Me Do - The Beatles 29 26 27 21 1050
                  NEW 30 Susie Darlin' - Tommy Roe 30 26 400
                  X Heartaches - Patsy Cline 27 320
                  28 Lonely - Mr. Acker Bilk 29 220
                  X James (Hold The Ladder Steady) - Carol Deene 29 160
                  29 Next Door To An Angel - Neil Sedaka 30 30 130
                  24 You Don't Know Me - Ray Charles 30 110
                  B We're Gonna Go Fishin' - Hank Locklin 29 100
                  X Warmed Over Kisses - Brian Hyland 28 90
                  X My Love And Devotion - Matt Monro 29 60
                  The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                  The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                  Comment


                  • Incredibly the NME still does not credit The Beatles on their chart for yet another week.

                    In comes Brenda Lee's Rockin' Around The Christmas Tree. Who would have thought back in 1962 that this record would still be loved and as popular today and a perennial chart entry every Christmas .
                    The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                    The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                    Comment


                    • 16 Return To Sender - Elvis Presley

                      No. 5 in NME but only no. 28 in MM.
                      Is this due to advance orders?

                      Comment


                      • I think it's possible. It is known both NME and Disc accepted orders for chart compilation and this appears to be borne out here as both charts have Elvis debuting in the Top Ten. This is a classic example of what I've mentioned before, that NME and Disc are similar, and MM and RR are similar.
                        The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                        The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                          A record in the lower ranges for a long time can sell a lot. Love Me Do was 18 weeks in the RR Top 50 and I suspect would have spent a similar length in an NME 50 if they'd had one. For all we know it was lurking just under their 30 at this time.
                          Also, Love Me Do was 17 weeks in the Melody Maker Top 50. Peaking at #21 for 2 weeks. Too bad the BBC didn't cut them some slack, especially being a new artist and all. Interesting that on 19 Jan 63, Please Please Me debuted at #47 on MM, when Love Me Do at #26 began its descent.

                          Love Me Do's tracking on MM starting 27 Oct 62: 48 - 40 - 30 - 28 - 26 - 26 - 24 - 24 - 22 - no regular MM chart (the year's Top 30 instead) - 21 - 21 - 26 - 34 - 37 - 41 - 43

                          So a good amount of staying power, at a lower lever. FYI, Love Me Do peaked at #24 on Disc. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

                          Comment


                          • I was coming round to thinking that the only way to explain the RR lag was that they had a survey week-ending Friday. But if that was the case it meant Love Me Do charted in RR on sales of only 1 day - assuming it was not available prior to the release date.

                            Comment


                            • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                              Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 8th 1962

                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 8th 1962 NME MM DISC RR Total
                              Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 110 50 30 Points
                              Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                              1 1 Lovesick Blues / She Taught Me How To Yodel - Frank Ifield 1 1 1 1 1 8100
                              2 2 Let's Dance - Chris Montez 2 3 2 3 5 7610
                              3 3 The Swiss Maid - Del Shannon 4 5 3 4 3 7350
                              16 4 Return To Sender - Elvis Presley 3 2 8 2 2 7170
                              8 5 (Dance With The) Guitar Man - Duane Eddy 5= 4 6 5 6 6960
                              4 6 Bobby's Girl - Susan Maughan 5= 7 4 6 4 6950
                              7 7 Sun Arise - Rolf Harris 7 5 5 7 7 6860
                              5 8 Telstar - The Tornados 8 9 7 8 9 6210
                              6 9 Devil Woman - Marty Robbins 9 8 9 9 8 6050
                              9 10 Sherry - The Four Seasons 10 12 10 11 10 5460
                              10 11 Venus In Blue Jeans - Mark Wynter 11 11 11 12 14 5260
                              11 12 No One Can Make My Sunshine Smile - The Everly Brothers 12 17 12 14 12 4630
                              20 13 The Main Attraction - Pat Boone 13 13 13 19 15 4500
                              14 14 The 'James Bond' Theme - John Barry 14 19 15 16 13 4010
                              NEW 15 The Next Time / Bachelor Boy - Cliff Richard 15 10 26 10 18 3670
                              17 16 A Forever Kind Of Love - Bobby Vee 17 15 22 13 22 3440
                              28 17 Rockin' Around The Christmas Tree - Brenda Lee 16 18 23 15 11 3320
                              25 18 It Only Took A Minute - Joe Brown 18 16 20 22 16 3310
                              12 19 The Loco-Motion - Little Eva 19 27 14 18 17 3260
                              18 20 Must Be Madison - Joe Loss 20 19 19 20 20 3160
                              13 21 Ramblin' Rose - Nat King Cole 23 24 16 21 24 2920
                              24 22 Desafinado - Stan Getz and Charlie Byrd 21 21 21 17 21 2900
                              19 23 Love Me Tender - Richard Chamberlain 22 22 18 25 19 2810
                              15 24 Oh Lonesome Me - Craig Douglas 24 24 17 23 23 2740
                              23 25 Because Of Love - Billy Fury 25 23 25 26 30 1580
                              29 26 Love Me Do - The Beatles 26 24 24 26 1270
                              22 27 Sheila - Tommy Roe 27 440
                              27 28 What Now My Love - Shirley Bassey 27 30 28 25 440
                              NEW 29 Always You And Me - Russ Conway 28 27 440
                              21 30 It Might As Well Rain Until September - Carole King 28= 28 28 420
                              Bachelor Boy - Cliff Richard 13
                              X Heartaches - Patsy Cline 26 400
                              26 I Remember You - Frank Ifield 28= 29 27 340
                              B Baby Take A Bow - Adam Faith 28 240
                              B Like I Do - Maureen Evans 30 30 30 130
                              B We're Gonna Go Fishin' - Hank Locklin 29 100
                              Next Door To An Angel - Neil Sedaka 29 60
                              30 Susie Darlin' - Tommy Roe
                              The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                              The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                              Comment


                              • .. and still NME, for a third week, fails to chart Love Me Do while it ranks in the middle twenties of all other three charts. At least it is on the climb at last though
                                The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                Comment


                                • Baby Take A Bow would be Adam Faith's 14th consecutive Top 30 hit, but the first to reach only the lower reaches. As Parlophone's big pop act hitherto, a significant sign of the changing times.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
                                    16 Return To Sender - Elvis Presley

                                    No. 5 in NME but only no. 28 in MM.
                                    Is this due to advance orders?
                                    No due to the fact that the record was released at the end of November, though 45 Cat has actually no date for it. With that date of chart entry the record would have been issued on either the 17 or 24 November. Though my bet would be 24 November, the nearest date after the film was issued in the USA.
                                    There would have stacks of publicity around at that time because it was from the movie "Girls, Girls, Girls" which was out 21 November in the USA and was released in the UK on the 21 December.

                                    Again I do have to say there is no evidence for advanced orders effecting sales on these charts. Like with the Record Mirror they used to get top 10 lists from the shops. These did not state how many were sold. If a shop placed a record at the top which hadn't sold a thing, there was no way any of the chart compilers would no this. Unless they knew that it hadn't been released. But on every record the release of the record is confirmed, so far!
                                    There is evidence of papers placing records higher than they should be and sometimes excluding them.

                                    This comment on 45 Cat is interesting:
                                    This record is unusual in that during it's actual 1962/63 chart run (prior to any subsequent re-pressings) it spanned two distinct UK label names and logos- RCA and RCA Victor. Early pressings were on RCA but part way during it's chart run the change was made to RCA Victor. From this moment on all Elvis' UK records were released on RCA Victor as opposed to just RCA, but maintained the same sequence of catalogue numbers.
                                    Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                    Comment


                                    • So Graham76man what is your explanation for the large difference in chart positions?

                                      Comment


                                      • Graham76man
                                        Graham76man commented
                                        Editing a comment
                                        There is evidence of papers placing records higher than they should be and sometimes excluding them

                                    • 15 The Next Time / Bachelor Boy - Cliff Richard
                                      but NME nos. 10 and 13.

                                      Another split sides for NME chart. Will this prevent Cliff reaching no. 1?

                                      Comment


                                      • I note they are always referred to as 'advance orders,' not 'advance sales', so think these are simply the dealer's estimate of what he needs. And we know from that Helen Shapiro record there is a certain amount of inflation in the figure. So I suspect what happened is that if the dealer knew he would get only, say, 50% of what he ordered he put in for double what he expected to be the initial demand. The balance would then arrive neatly in time for subsequent demand.

                                        The figures were useful to the record company in relative terms, how many were being ordered compared to previous releases, and as a PR tool. Part of this PR would have been to say to the magazines that the record was bound to be number one so they should place it there (or higher than it should be) to be ahead of the game. This was a 'rubicon' that MM was not prepared to cross but it appears that NME and Disc were. I agree with Graham that the 'advance order' explanation (and we still don't know where it originates) does not make sense because you cannot add record units to points. Its sounds to me like a euphemism for manipulation.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
                                          15 The Next Time / Bachelor Boy - Cliff Richard
                                          but NME nos. 10 and 13.

                                          Another split sides for NME chart. Will this prevent Cliff reaching no. 1?
                                          Another instance of some dealers putting one side of the record as the seller and others putting in the other side. I really doubt that any dealers supplied NME with two positions of these AA discs. And we do know that NME (not the shops supplying them) especially placed records higher up the charts than it should have. Did they do that because the record company had said there were lots of dealer ordering copies? Or was it that they believed the record to have sold more than it was being shown. Perhaps they were getting info from the shops saying could have sold more? Maybe it sold more in the south, especially London. It's likely that the National Chart(s) was more like London 70% and the rest 30%. Several authors of chart books and music insiders have said that to be the case.
                                          Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                          Comment


                                          • We really need an NME whistle blower, not just speculation. Someone like Topicel might know the truth.

                                            Comment


                                            • Then again, it is all these mysteries and uncertainties, that make the sixties record charts so fascinating and keep us enthralled. Offering competing theories on how each was compiled, which shops they used, did they or did they not use advance orders, which was the most reliable. That is the romance of the charts.
                                              The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                              The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                              Comment


                                              • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
                                                15 The Next Time / Bachelor Boy - Cliff Richard
                                                but NME nos. 10 and 13.

                                                Another split sides for NME chart. Will this prevent Cliff reaching no. 1?
                                                Wait and see Brian lol
                                                The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                                The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                                Comment


                                                • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                                                  Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 15th 1962

                                                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 15th 1962 NME MM DISC RR Total
                                                  Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 110 50 30 Points
                                                  Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                                  4 1 Return To Sender - Elvis Presley 1 1 2 1 1 7990
                                                  1 2 Lovesick Blues / She Taught Me How To Yodel - Frank Ifield 2 2 1 3 2 7890
                                                  7 3 Sun Arise - Rolf Harris 3 3 3 4 3 7510
                                                  6 4 Bobby's Girl - Susan Maughan 5 5 5 6 4 7000
                                                  15 5 The Next Time / Bachelor Boy - Cliff Richard 4 4 8 2 5 6920
                                                  2 6 Let's Dance - Chris Montez 6 7 4 5 7 6910
                                                  5 7 (Dance With The) Guitar Man - Duane Eddy 7 6 6 7 9 6610
                                                  3 8 The Swiss Maid - Del Shannon 8 8 7 8 6 6380
                                                  9 9 Devil Woman - Marty Robbins 10 11 9 9 10 5750
                                                  8 10 Telstar - The Tornados 9 10 10 10 8 5730
                                                  17 11 Rockin' Around The Christmas Tree - Brenda Lee 11 9 14 11 11 5230
                                                  13 12 The Main Attraction - Pat Boone 12 15 11 17 12 4750
                                                  10 13 Sherry - The Four Seasons 14 17 12 14 18 4450
                                                  18 14 It Only Took A Minute - Joe Brown 13 14 16 15 14 4320
                                                  11 15 Venus In Blue Jeans - Mark Wynter 15 21 13 16 15 4010
                                                  16 16 A Forever Kind Of Love - Bobby Vee 16 18 19 12 17 3730
                                                  22 17 Desafinado - Stan Getz and Charlie Byrd 17 16 22 18 13 3380
                                                  20 18 Must Be Madison - Joe Loss 19 19 20 19 21 3070
                                                  14 19 The 'James Bond' Theme - John Barry 20 25 15 20 22 3060
                                                  NEW 20 Dance On - The Shadows 18 12 28 13 24 2960
                                                  12 21 No One Can Make My Sunshine Smile - The Everly Brothers 21 24 18 22 20 2770
                                                  23 22 Love Me Tender - Richard Chamberlain 22 28 17 25 16 2530
                                                  19 23 The Loco-Motion - Little Eva 24 27 21 27 23 1860
                                                  NEW 24 Like I Do - Maureen Evans 23 22 27 21 27 1780
                                                  26 25 Love Me Do - The Beatles 25 24 26 19 1380
                                                  25 26 Because Of Love - Billy Fury 26 25 23 28 1150
                                                  21 27 Ramblin' Rose - Nat King Cole 28 23 29 940
                                                  NEW 28 Baby Take A Bow - Adam Faith 27 20 880
                                                  24 29 Oh Lonesome Me - Craig Douglas 29= 26 28 30 730
                                                  NEW 30 Your Cheating Heart - Ray Charles 29= 23 640
                                                  Bachelor Boy - Cliff Richard 13
                                                  B Gossip Calypso - Bernard Cribbins 26 400
                                                  29 Always You And Me - Russ Conway 24 350
                                                  I Remember You - Frank Ifield 30 26 260
                                                  B Can Can '62 - Peter Jay and The Jaywalkers 29 220
                                                  28 What Now My Love - Shirley Bassey 25 180
                                                  B Up On The Roof - Kenny Lynch 29 160
                                                  B Me And My Shadow - Frank Sinatra and Sammy Davis Jnr. 30 30 130
                                                  B He's A Rebel - The Crystals 29 100
                                                  27 Sheila - Tommy Roe
                                                  30 It Might As Well Rain Until September - Carole King
                                                  The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                                  The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                                  Comment

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