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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Apart from one record, which had also been behaving strangely in MM, I haven't seen any 'kinks' that needed working out.
    The next really big kink in BMRB is yet to come, the Max Romeo record with an even more inexplicable pattern of movement than Donald Peers

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    I've just noticed - this thread will be a year old on Wednesday (16 June)! It shows how good it is that it's still going strong at 114 pages.
    I genuinely can't believe so many guys follow it Robbie. As you say just coming up on a year, 22 likes, over 71,000 views, over 2600 comments. I never thought when it started out that it would generate this much interest.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    I've just noticed - this thread will be a year old on Wednesday (16 June)! It shows how good it is that it's still going strong at 114 pages.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Please Don't Go by Donald Peers - the one we discussed.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Apart from one record, which had also been behaving strangely in MM, I haven't seen any 'kinks' that needed working out.
    What record was that Splodj as a matter of interest ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Apart from one record, which had also been behaving strangely in MM, I haven't seen any 'kinks' that needed working out.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    I must say, all 3 charts are getting tighter and tighter, as BMRB works out its kinks. More proof that NME and MM were outstanding charts during the 60s, and the method of averaging "a lot" of dealer charts was relatively highly accurate and effective.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    The way I read the 20-Oct-58 Billboard is that they are no longer counting individual sales. "To prepare this data required costly and complex tabulations of over 10,000 unit sales of each singles disk each week ... elimination of the tabulation of individual songs and artists makes possible substantial cost reductions."
    I think you are correct Splodj, I missed that article on page 3, but saw the other one. It thus sounds like Billboard used 3 methods of gathering different types of sales info thru 1959, and applying them to the Best Sellers chart and the Top 100 / Hot 100.

    It looks like the Best Sellers chart first used/averaged "dealer opinion" Top 10 lists in 1940, then in 1957 with the help of NYU School of Retailing went to "dealer actual cash register sales" as recorded in diaries. Then the chart was killed off in Oct 1958, as you found because it was too expensive to fund and maintain.

    And the Top 100 Record Sides chart, which began Nov-12-1955, originally combined dealer sales, jukebox play, and DJ airplay, from info gathered from surveys they sent out. Assuming they were using the same Best Sellers "dealer opinion" lists for the sales data component. However in June/July 1957, in a quick series of events over just 3 weeks, the jukebox position chart ended, the jukebox and DJ airplay data was tossed from the Top 100, and (as I just discovered) the sales component started using the new "dealer actual cash register sales", per the NYU SOR seal/certification on the chart.

    So from July 1957 to July 1958, it was more than a little confusing to some. The Best Sellers chart was "actual sales of records", and the Top 100 Sides chart was "actual sales of sides". The Top 100 chart had a disclaimer box pointing this out, that the "sides" were “as requested by customers.” What a zoo, ha.

    So then the Top 100 gets killed off end of July 1958, replaced by the Hot 100 start of Aug 1958. The Top 100 at this time had been sales only, the Hot 100 was now sales + DJ airplay + jukebox play. So the Hot 100 started out doing just what the Top 100 had begun doing just 3 years earlier! Here we go 'round in circles.

    The question becomes, what type of sales data was the Hot 100 originally using in Aug 1958? Did they go back to "dealer opinion", or did they use "actual dealer sales"? I don't know, and can't find out, as the pertinent charts and articles are on pages missing from the World Radio History archive, ugh.

    But as you found out Splodj, when the Best Sellers chart was killed off in Oct 1958, the Hot 100 then changed whatever it was doing with its sales component, going to something involving dealer diaries but not compiling actual dealer sales thru NYU SOR. Did the dealers begin constructing from their diaries ranked charts without sales? It kinda sounds like it.

    Something else confusing. The note on the Oct-20-1958 Hot 100 chart (top of page 25) says "These 100 sides are listed in order of their national popularity, as determined by weekly local studies prepared for The Billboard in markets representing a cross-section of the United States. These studies reflect sales registered for each disk up to press time." So did the Hot 100 go to sales only, 2.5 months after it began? As we know, it eventually added back in radio play.

    Fascinating, interesting…

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    I thought BMRB was most out of step in April 1970 putting Dana at number one for 2 weeks. Although it was top in Ireland for 9 weeks, so maybe this was because BMRB surveyed more shops in NI.
    As far as I am aware, BMRB never surveyed any shops in NI. Even Gallup didn't start to include returns from NI until 1984.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    In the vast majority of cases at least two out of three of the three charts always agree on the #1 record. It gets interesting when there is a three way split at the top. You will see this for the first time in December 1969 when there is a three way disagreement on what is #1. Thus far in my compilation it has also happened twice in 1970 and the fun averaging process decider is interesting in each case.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I thought BMRB was most out of step in April 1970 putting Dana at number one for 2 weeks. Although it was top in Ireland for 9 weeks, so maybe this was because BMRB surveyed more shops in NI.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Once again BMRB identifies the next number one first.

    I see that Top Pops had some maverick number ones about this time - Herman's, Hawkins etc.
    .
    Yeah it's one of the reasons I don't include Top Pops in the 'averaging' process. They also have a number of records that go high in the top ten that don't go close to the top ten in any other chart. They only sampled around a dozen stores so that is the likely reason.

    1970 is proving an interesting year. I'm already compiling in September of 1970 and there are a few instances where the #1 is split three ways and the 'averaging' process comes up with a few interesting #1's on this basis.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Once again BMRB identifies the next number one first.

    I see that Top Pops had some maverick number ones about this time - Herman's, Hawkins etc.

    Meanwhile ... 'Space Oddity' was recorded on 20th June, although didn't chart until September.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending June 14th 1969

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending June 14th 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Dizzy - Tommy Roe 1 1 2 15965
    12 2 The Ballad Of John And Yoko - The Beatles 2 2 1 15600
    8 3 Oh Happy Day - The Edwin Hawkins Singers 3 3 3 14980
    2 4 Get Back - The Beatles 4 4 5 14360
    3 5 Man Of The World - Fleetwood Mac 5 5 4 13995
    11 6 Time Is Tight - Booker T. and The MG's 7 6 6 13175
    4 7 My Way - Frank Sinatra 6 7 7 13040
    6 8 The Boxer - Simon and Garfunkel 8 8 8 12305
    7 9 Ragamuffin Man - Manfred Mann 9 9 10 11685
    10 10 Love Me Tonight - Tom Jones 11 10 12 10865
    17 11 Higher And Higher - Jackie Wilson 10 12 11 10650
    9 12 Behind A Painted Smile - The Isley Brothers 13 11 20 9535
    16 13 Tracks Of My Tears - Smokey Robinson and The Miracles 14 14 9 9520
    5 14 My Sentimental Friend - Herman's Hermits 12 13 18 9405
    13 15 Galveston - Glen Campbell 16 15 17 8190
    14 16 Aquarius/Let The Sunshine In - The Fifth Dimension 15 18 16 7725
    21 17 I'd Rather Go Blind - Chicken Shack 17 16 19 7570
    18 18 Dick-A-Dum-Dum - Des O'Connor 18 17 14 7545
    26 19 Living In The Past - Jethro Tull 20 19 15 6560
    29 20 Big Ship - Cliff Richard 21 20 13 6280
    27 21 Gimme Gimme Good Lovin' - Crazy Elephant 19 21 21 5750
    NEW 22 Proud Mary - Creedence Clearwater Revival 22 24 22 4315
    15 23 Come Back And Shake Me - Clodagh Rodgers 25 22 22 4215
    19 24 Goodbye - Mary Hopkin 24 23 26 3825
    NEW 25 Frozen Orange Juice - Peter Sarstedt 26 29 24 2095
    RE 26 I Threw It All Away - Bob Dylan 23 1600
    23 27 Snake In The Grass - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 25 1500
    NEW 28 Happy Heart - Andy Williams 27 25 1310
    20 29 (I'm A) Road Runner - Jumior Walker and The All Stars 26 1250
    22 30 I'm Living In Shame - Diana Ross and The Supremes 28 28 1005
    X Boogaloo Party - The Flamingos 27 1000
    B Tomorrow Tomorrow - The Bee Gees 28 600
    B What Is A Man - The Four Tops 30 27 540
    B A Way Of Life - The Family Dogg 29 400
    B Wet Dream - Max Romeo 30 250
    B Breakaway - The Beach Boys 29 170
    X Groovy Baby - Microbe 30 85
    24 Badge - Cream
    25 Pinball Wizard - The Who
    28 Gentle On My Mind - Dean Martin
    30 Cupid - Johnny Nash

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    I have to say it ! The only Beatles single I never liked debuts this week. The Ballad Of John And Yoko is easily the worst single they ever released even although it's just John and Paul who recorded it. It's just an awful substandard single.
    I like the final 15 seconds!

    An offending word was blanked out on Top Of The Pops. Would not happen today.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    I agree, I don't like "The Ballad of J + Y" whatsoever.
    From an artistic merit, it should have been left off the "1" CD in favor of another #1 track...

    Leave a comment:


  • Metalweb
    replied
    I guess everyone was expecting Let It Be to be The Beatles' final #1!

    btw is The Ballad Of John & Yoko the first (non instrumental) #1 without the title in the lyrics?

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    'The Ballad Of John And Yoko' is little more than a demo. It's certainly a hurried recording. I don't mind it but I'd rather 'Get Back' had been their final number 1, as it's more apt.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I have to say it ! The only Beatles single I never liked debuts this week. The Ballad Of John And Yoko is easily the worst single they ever released even although it's just John and Paul who recorded it. It's just an awful substandard single.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending June 7th 1969

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending June 7th 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    2 1 Dizzy - Tommy Roe 1 1 1 16050
    1 2 Get Back - The Beatles 2 2 2 15515
    3 3 Man Of The World - Fleetwood Mac 3 3 3 14980
    5 4 My Way - Frank Sinatra 4 4 5 14360
    4 5 My Sentimental Friend - Herman's Hermits 5 5 7 13740
    7 6 The Boxer - Simon and Garfunkel 6 7 6 13125
    8 7 Ragamuffin Man - Manfred Mann 7 6 10 12835
    22 8 Oh Happy Day - The Edwin Hawkins Singers 7 9 9 12170
    6 9 Behind A Painted Smile - The Isley Brothers 11 8 8 11705
    9 10 Love Me Tonight - Tom Jones 9 9 11 11600
    14 11 Time Is Tight - Booker T. and The MG's 9 11 11 11100
    NEW 12 The Ballad Of John And Yoko - The Beatles 11 15 4 10295
    12 13 Galveston - Glen Campbell 15 12 14 9395
    15 14 Aquarius/Let The Sunshine In - The Fifth Dimension 13 13 16 9375
    10 15 Come Back And Shake Me - Clodagh Rodgers 16 14 19 8270
    16 16 Tracks Of My Tears - Smokey Robinson and The Miracles 17 18 13 7580
    25 17 Higher And Higher - Jackie Wilson 14 20 15 7510
    21 18 Dick-A-Dum-Dum - Des O'Connor 18 17 18 7205
    11 19 Goodbye - Mary Hopkin 20 16 20 6885
    13 20 (I'm A) Road Runner - Junior Walker and The All Stars 19 19 28 5655
    28 21 I'd Rather Go Blind - Chicken Shack 22 21 17 5490
    18 22 I'm Living In Shame - Diana Ross and The Supremes 21 27 21 3850
    27 23 Snake In The Grass - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 30 22 24 3045
    19 24 Badge - Cream 26 24 2750
    17 25 Pinball Wizard - The Who 29 23 2400
    NEW 26 Living In The Past - Jethro Tull 26 29 22 2265
    NEW 27 Gimme Gimme Good Lovin' - Crazy Elephant 23 30 27 2190
    26 28 Gentle On My Mind - Dean Martin 26 22 2015
    NEW 29 Big Ship - Cliff Richard 28 28 25 1860
    24 30 Cupid - Johnny Nash 25 1500
    B Proud Mary - Creedence Clearwater Revival 24 1400
    29 I Threw It All Away - Bob Dylan 25 30 1285
    X Boogaloo Party - The Flamingos 26 425
    X Groovy Baby - Microbe 29 170
    20 Harlem Shuffle - Bob and Earl
    23 Israelites - Desmond Dekker and The Aces
    30 Passing Strangers - Sarah Vaughan and Billy Eckstine

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    ^
    the basing of many US station playlists (in the 60s especially) on local sales charts actually reinforced the connection back to sales. If a station based its airplay on what was selling in the local area then its airplay should refelct the local popularity of a record. The model started to breakdown in the 1970s when many independent stations became part of a larger chain and airplay was increasingly decided from regional or even national offices.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    The way I read the 20-Sep-58 Billboard is that they are no longer counting individual sales. "To prepare this data required costly and complex tabulations of over 10,000 unit sales of each singles disk each week ... elimination of the tabulation of individual songs and artists makes possible substantial cost reductions."

    Regarding 'airplay', although this conjures up images of charts based on dj's whiims actually Top 40 stations often did their own extensive sales surveys.
    WABC's process in New York appears to put RR to shame: https://www.musicradio77.com/surveyexplanation.html
    Rival WMCA also did a survey: https://www.musicradio77.com/wmca/surveys.html

    ​​​​

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    It is still unclear to me whether Billboard asked the stores to simply rank their sales or specify the actual numbers sold. If it was the latter they would be in the strange situation of saying, in many cases, that one side of the record sold 'x' and the other side sold 'y'. Also they computed their year-end chart using cumulative points; if they had cumulative sales available for the sales section you would have expected those to be used.
    Billboard was constantly changing what they were doing, you basically have to go thru many issues and look at all the different charts and info boxes (and articles) to see what the heck they were doing at any given point in time.

    For June-17-1957:
    --the Best Sellers chart was "records" = combined A + B sides, based on "dealer opinions"
    --the Juke Box chart was "records" = combined A + B sides
    --the DJ airplay chart was for "sides" = separate A / B chart positions
    --the Top 100 combo of the above 3 charts was "sides" = separate A / B positions

    For the next week June 24-1957, some changes were made due to now counting actual dealer sales:
    --the Best Sellers chart is still "records" = combined A + B sides, but now based on "actual cash register sales, not opinion"
    --the Juke Box chart is still "records" = combined A + B sides, but they have removed all chart position numbers, records are now just randomly listed
    --the DJ airplay chart is still "sides" = separate A / B positions
    --the Top 100 combo chart is still "sides", but they have removed juke box plays from the calcs, so it's now only based on dealer sales + DJ airplay
    --the question for me here is, is the Top 100 using actual sales or dealer opinion sales? It's not perfectly clear. But as I posted further up above, the Hot 100 on Oct-20-1958 boldly proclaimed going forward they were going to use actual sales data, implying they hadn't been doing so before.

    It's a zoo. Joel Whitburn gives us a lot of info about the charts in his books, but he doesn't tell us everything either.


    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    Yeah Robin, got to hand it to you: You’ve just clarified my memory. Seems I’ve been too occupied with British charts the last year to keep up my American side of the brain.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    mmmmmmmm .. a real treat for my ears as a new entry this week, the wonderful I'd Rather Go Blind by Chicken Shack.

    All three charts are really quite close in the top eleven this week with at most any one of them just one position away from the others.

    Leave a comment:

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