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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    NME and BMRB agree on #1 this week, MM still goes with Marvin Gaye. For some strange reason NME omits a #30 this week.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 19th 1969.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 19th 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    6 1 Israelites - Desmond Dekker and The Aces 1 2 1 15800
    1 2 I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye 2 1 3 15680
    2 3 Gentle On My Mind - Dean Martin 3 3 5 14810
    3 4 Boom Bang-A-Bang - Lulu 4 4 4 14445
    4 5 Sorry Suzanne - The Hollies 6 5 7 13540
    5 6 In The Bad Bad Old Days - The Foundations 5 6 8 13405
    16 7 Goodbye - Mary Hopkin 7 8 2 13015
    7 8 Games People Play - Joe South 8 7 9 12470
    10 9 Windmills Of Your Mind - Noel Harrison 9 9 10 11685
    17 10 Pinball Wizard - The Who 10 10 6 11575
    14 11 I Can Hear Music - The Beach Boys 11 12 11 10450
    8 12 Monsieur Dupont - Sandie Shaw 14 11 13 9930
    9 13 Get Ready - The Temptations 12 13 20 9235
    15 14 Good Times (Better Times) - Cliff Richard 13 14 19 8870
    19 15 Harlem Shuffle - Bob and Earl 15 18 16 7725
    11 16 Where Do You Go To My Lovely - Peter Sarstedt 16 16 22 7515
    27 17 Cupid - Johnny Nash 18 19 12 7215
    13 18 First Of May - The Bee Gees 17 15 28 7055
    12 19 Surround Yourself With Sorrow - Cilla Black 20 17 17 6890
    24 20 I Don't Know Why - Stevie Wonder 19 22 18 5755
    20 21 Hello World - The Tremeloes 25 21 14 5145
    18 22 If I Can Dream - Elvis Presley 22 20 26 4975
    25 23 Passing Strangers - Sarah Vaughan and Billy Eckstine 21 23 23 4680
    NEW 24 Come Back and Shake Me - Clodagh Rodgers 23 30 15 3210
    29 25 (I'm A ) Road Runner - Junior Walker and The All Stars 26 27 26 2425
    21 26 The Way It Used To Be - Engelbert Humperdinck 24 29 30 1985
    22 27 Wichita Lineman - Glen Campbell 24 1750
    NEW 28 Michael And The Slipper Tree - The Equals 29 28 25 1660
    26 29 One Road - The Love Affair 25 1500
    NEW 30 My Way - Frank Sinatra 27 23 1480
    23 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 26 1250
    B Man Of The World - Fleetwood Mac 21 850
    B Dick-A-Dum-Dum - Des O'Connor 28 600
    X The Walls Fell Down - The Marbles 29 170
    28 Please Don't Go - Donald Peers
    30 Don Juan - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich
    * NME strangely omitted a number 30 this week

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  • membranemusic
    replied
    It's great to see the continued charts into the BMRB era. Indeed, I have already done them all to 1996, but without the dealer weighting! Interesting that I had an ambivalent point of view re BMRB back in 1969 which compelled me to carry on. If anyone really needs to know the straight average position in any week without dealer weighting, just ask! So, fascinating, and Mr Tibbs please carry on. At least it gets rid of the joint positions, of which there were three in 15-2-69!

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    We've arrived at that point discussed earlier ...

    On 13-April 'Get Back' was played in the new releases section of POTP. McCartney heard this and decided it needed to be remixed to sound better on radio. There is a recording online so you can hear what McCartney heard. (Although I suspect he was deliberately listening on AM and the recording is from FM.) The single was subsequently delayed, although I notice Wikipedia still says the release date was the 11th.

    (Talking about release dates, I see the Peter Jackson 'Get Back' film is coming out on 21-Aug-21.)

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Again all three charts agree on the #1 record. There is broad agreement on records qualifying for the Top 30 with only three records differing overall.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 12th 1969.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 12th 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye 1 1 1 16050
    2 2 Gentle On My Mind - Dean Martin 2 2 4 15345
    7 3 Boom Bang-A-Bang - Lulu 3 4 2 14815
    3 4 Sorry Suzanne - The Hollies 4 3 5 14610
    9 5 In The Bad Bad Old Days - The Foundations 5 5 8 13655
    14 6 Israelites - Desmond Dekker and The Aces 6 7 3 13380
    6 7 Games People Play - Joe South 7 6 7 13090
    8 8 Monsieur Dupont - Sandie Shaw 8 8 11 12050
    11 9 Get Ready - The Temptations 11 9 13 11030
    19 10 Windmills Of Your Mind - Noel Harrison 10 12 15 10310
    4 11 Where Do You Go To My Lovely - Peter Sarstedt 13 10 14 10295
    5 12 Surround Yourself With Sorrow - Cilla Black 15 11 12 9815
    10 13 First Of May - The Bee Gees 9 15 17 9590
    16 14 I Can Hear Music - The Beach Boys 14 14 10 9435
    15 15 Good Times (Better Times) - Cliff Richard 12 13 18 9405
    28 16 Goodbye - Mary Hopkin 17 16 6 8675
    23 17 Pinball Wizard - The Who 16 17 9 8370
    18 18 If I Can Dream - Elvis Presley 20 18 19 6470
    22 19 Harlem Shuffle - Bob and Earl 18 21 19 6120
    24 20 Hello World - The Tremeloes 22 22 16 5325
    12 21 The Way It Used To Be - Engelbert Humperdinck 21 23 21 4850
    13 22 Wichita Lineman - Glen Campbell 24 19 26 4825
    17 23 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 25 20 23 4630
    25 24 I Don't Know Why - Stevie Wonder 23 24 22 4115
    26 25 Passing Strangers - Sarah Vaughan and Billy Eckstine 19 27 30 3485
    21 26 One Road - The Love Affair 28 25 25 2610
    29 27 Cupid - Johnny Nash 26 26 2250
    20 28 Please Don't Go - Donald Peers 28 24 1345
    NEW 29 (I'm A) Road Runner - Junior Walker and The All Stars 27 29 1300
    27 30 Don Juan - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 29 30 29 820
    B Come Back And Shake Me - Clodagh Rodgers 27 340
    X Sanctus - Les Troubadours Du Roi Baudouin 28 255
    X Crosstown Traffic - The Jimi Hendrix Experience 30 200
    30 I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I think in the USA context 'sales only' simply means 'did not include airplay' - as Billboard did.

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  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post
    I want to add that they may very well have tried to do all those things - tested, checked, corrections made, and authenticated pre launch. However, it could very well have bene such a different beast then they thought once it all started.

    I think I am right that this is the first sales only chart in the world? I know Billboard collected sales data since 1958 (I think I am right here) but did they use it as true sales or points? I don't want to digress into talk about Billboard, but the first I the world would be expected to have issues regardless.
    Interesting question. The Cash Box singles chart from 1944 to sometime in the 70s was based on sales only. In the 1940's and the early 1950's, up until sometime in 1955, they showed the "sales per 1000 singles sold" right there on the chart, for the current and previous weeks. How they got these numbers, I don't know. Cash Box Archive article here:

    https://www.cashboxmagazine.com/archives.htm

    This would be a good question for Paul Haney on the "Top 40 Music On CD" website...

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    "No plan survives contact with the NME!"

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    I want to add that they may very well have tried to do all those things - tested, checked, corrections made, and authenticated pre launch. However, it could very well have bene such a different beast then they thought once it all started.

    I think I am right that this is the first sales only chart in the world? I know Billboard collected sales data since 1958 (I think I am right here) but did they use it as true sales or points? I don't want to digress into talk about Billboard, but the first I the world would be expected to have issues regardless.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Personally I can remember welcoming the new BMRB chart with open arms, being young and nave at the time I thought it was accurate down to every copy sold as it was presented at the time to be the all singing all dancing chart to remedy all that went before.

    No doubt about it, as it was a sales chart it presented a major step forward in the way we counted and recorded record sales to produce a chart. But in retrospect it was flawed in many respects for the initial years. I don't think the trial run for its inception was robust or thorough enough later proved by the problems in getting diaries returned in sufficient quantities to compile an authentic chart with no ties, and in having to discard so many poorly completed diaries. This also refers back to the quality of the trial period as obviously a huge number of the chart return shops were ill prepared or trained in diary completion or the sense of urgency in returning these timeously.

    As a result sadly the initial years delivered a chart full of inconsistencies, initial ties, dubious patterns of movement week on week therefore reducing its credibility as a robust chart.

    Perhaps a longer period of trial was necessary to bed in the new chart with to ensure it worked competently with a much higher proportion of useable diary return before being unleashed as the 'Official Chart', because its credibility was questionable thus diminishing its status sadly.
    In the light of this we really can't discount the points based system of MM or NME in this early period. They were still publishing a tried and true method of compilation from a much larger sample of stores and therefore their authenticity in these early years of the BMRB chart can't be discounted or underestimated. Their charts in these early years were still accepted in preference to the BMRB chart in many quarters.

    That's the tragedy here. The BMRB chart if properly tested, checked, corrections made, and authenticated pre launch should from the moment of introduction have been what it was intended to be, the 'Official Chart' without question. It failed us.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I think the BBC would have been delighted with the new chart. Not just ahead of the game with The Israelites, but Lulu and others. I doubt they were concerned so much with the tie (their old chart had been riddled with them) as the indication that the sampling was lower than they had been promised. But they may have thought, as I do, that a sales chart with 85 stores is better than a points chart with many more.

    I don't think RR (or the BBC) could have unilaterally imposed a change of policy on BMRB as suggested.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    ^
    It's the first time I've been able to compare chart movement across the three charts for the early BMRB period so a big thanks to MrTibbs for the layout presentation of the UAC. It means I've been able to spot things like the chart progress of 'Israelites'.
    I think the earlier assessment of sales versus points accurately accounts for the good example Israelites provides Robbie. When all charts used points 30 points for example meant 30 points across all the charts equally irregardless of store size, but sales does alter this a bit. As mentioned in an earlier post larger stores selling big numbers of a record will obviously differ from the amount a small independent will sell of the same record so whereas 30 points from HMV would also be 30 points from Joe's Records, now, it could be 250 from HMV but still 30 (as in points) from Joe's.

    What I am trying to highlight here is BMRB positions as a sales chart, but in comparison how MM and NME still view current sales reflected on their points system. So you can take your pick, you go with the BMRB sales chart as the barometer of public opinion at this time with a still minimal return of diaries or you stick with the tried and true points based system from MM and NME with their far larger store sample.
    That is the dilemma lol.

    That is why this UAC is for 'fun' , although it is interesting too, with the main purpose of the posts for now being to continue to show all the main charts as comparisons week on week and a sales chart versus points charts

    I just love all these charts

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    It's possible that RR asked BMRB to instigate a tie breaker as too many tied places on a chart makes the chart look untidy, or at least it does to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post
    I think the number of diaries on time being low also contributed to this. We start to loose ties in a few months and after July or August (I need to check) we loose them completely bar for a few random cases.
    I noticed on the RR chart page for an October issue in 1969 a comment that stated 'tied positions are listed in alphabetical order'. Perhaps this is how they were now splitting them to account for the huge reduction in ties the chart was initially producing then tailed off from the second half of the year.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    ^
    It's the first time I've been able to compare chart movement across the three charts for the early BMRB period so a big thanks to MrTibbs for the layout presentation of the UAC. It means I've been able to spot things like the chart progress of 'Israelites'.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    'Israelites' really is flying up the BMRB chart.

    The way that BMRB seem to be ahead of the curve suggests that BMRB may be catching (or capturing) Saturday sales in a better way. Am I right in thinking that by now both the NME and MM charts are compiled from postal returns and not telephone calls? If so perhaps the retailers that provided sales information for those two charts were quick to get returns in and were missing out on Saturday trends. 'Israelites' was featured on Top Of The Pops on Thursday 27 March 1969 while the single was at number 21. The following week the single jumped to number 5, perhaps partly as a result of the TOTP effect on sales. On NME the single moved 22-14 while on MM it moved 28-18. The three charts weren't far out the week in which the single was aired on Top Of The Pops but the following week saw the single gain a massive sales boost on the BMRB charts which wasn't fully reflected on the NME and MM charts. Maybe the NME and MM charts have an earlier end of sales week cut off by this point?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    All three charts again agree on #1, and indeed on all top three positions. Stevie Wonder's I Don't Know Why is one of the rare Stevie Wonder records I didn't like at all. I much preferred the later flipped My Cherie Amour.

    Mary Hopkin enters with Goodbye and yet again in the weeks to come she will compete with label mates The Beatles for #1. It's interesting that Apple opted for both to go head to head again or just bad release planning.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 5th 1969.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 5th 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye 1 1 1 16050
    4 2 Gentle On My Mind - Dean Martin 2 2 2 15515
    5 3 Sorry Suzanne - The Hollies 3 3 3 14980
    2 4 Where Do You Go To My Lovely - Peter Sarstedt 5 4 7 13990
    3 5 Surround Yourself With Sorrow - Cilla Black 5 6 11 13150
    10 6 Games People Play - Joe South 7 7 8 12755
    17 7 Boom Bang-A-Bang - Lulu 8 8 4 12645
    9 8 Monsieur Dupont - Sandie Shaw 11 5 6 12625
    15 9 In The Bad Bad Old Days - The Foundations 4 10 9 12520
    7 10 First Of May - The Bee Gees 9 9 10 11685
    14 11 Get Ready - The Temptations 10 11 13 10730
    6 12 The Way It Used To Be - Engelbert Humperdick 12 13 16 9575
    8 13 Wichita Lineman - Glen Campbell 13 12 18 9455
    23 14 Israelites - Desmond Dekker and The Aces 14 18 5 8860
    12 15 Good Times (Better Times) - Cliff Richard 17 16 12 8165
    18 16 I Can Hear Music - The Beach Boys 15 17 18 7805
    11 17 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 18 14 20 7785
    13 18 If I Can Dream - Elvis Presley 19 15 15 7760
    20 19 Windmills Of Your Mind - Noel Harrison 20 20 14 6395
    16 20 Please Don't Go - Donald Peers 16 22 23 5930
    19 21 One Road - The Love Affair 21 19 24 5595
    26 22 Harlem Shuffle - Bob and Earl 24 21 21 4750
    30 23 Pinball Wizard - The Who 22 24 17 4740
    28 24 Hello World - The Tremeloes 23 23 22 4365
    NEW 25 I Don't Know Why - Stevie Wonder 25 27 26 2625
    24 26 Passing Strangers - Sarah Vaughan and Billy Eckstine 28 25 27 2440
    25 27 Don Juan - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 30 26 28 1705
    NEW 28 Goodbye - Mary Hopkin 26 25 1510
    NEW 29 Cupid - Johnny Nash 29 29 28 1155
    21 30 I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations 28 30 835
    X Sanctus - Les Troubadours Du Roi Badouin 27 800
    27 I'll Pick A Rose For My Rose - Marv Johnson 30 250
    29 Maria Elena - Gene Pitney 30 85
    22 (If Paradise Is) Half As Nice - Amen Corner
    Dancing In The Street - Martha Reeves and The Foundations

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    MM really does seem behind the trend when compared to both NME and BMRB.

    'Israelites' in at number 23 - reggae finally has a breakthrough hit.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Motown gets its third #1 this week, they have had to wait nearly three years for it, after The Supremes in 1964 and The Four Tops in 1966.

    However MM still goes with Peter Sarstedt for another week at the top.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 29th 1969.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 29th 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    2 1 I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye 1 2 1 15800
    1 2 Where Do You Go To My Lovely - Peter Sarstedt 2 1 2 15765
    3 3 Surround Yourself With Sorrow - Cilla Black 4 3 3 14780
    6 4 Gentle On My Mind - Dean Martin 3 4 5 14560
    9 5 Sorry Suzanne - The Hollies 6 7 4 13295
    4 6 The Way It Used To Be - Engelbert Humperdinck 5 5 13 13230
    8 7 First Of May - The Bee Gees 7 8 7 12590
    5 8 Wichita Lineman - Glen Campbell 8 6 14 12295
    7 9 Monsieur Dupont - Sandie Shaw 9 9 8 11855
    16 10 Games People Play - Joe South 10 12 6 11075
    12 11 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 11 10 17 10440
    15 12 Good Times (Better Times) - Cliff Richard 15 11 12 9815
    14 13 If I Can Dream - Elvis Presley 13 14 11 9550
    19 14 Get Ready - The Temptations 14 15 10 9185
    21 15 In The Bad Bad Old Days - The Foundations 12 16 15 8910
    11 16 Please Don't Go - Donald Peers 16 13 20 8435
    24 17 Boom Bang-A-Bang - Lulu 17 19 9 7670
    22 18 I Can Hear Music - The Beach Boys 20 17 18 6805
    20 19 One Road - The Love Affair 18 20 19 6370
    18 20 Windmills Of Your Mind - Noel Harrison 19 22 16 5925
    10 21 I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations 21 18 5250
    13 22 (If Paradise Is) Half As Nice - Amen Corner 24 21 28 4155
    NEW 23 Israelites - Desmond Dekker and The Aces 22 28 21 3400
    27 24 Passing Strangers - Sarah Vaughan and Billy Eckstine 25 25 24 3295
    26 25 Don Juan - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 27 23 26 3225
    NEW 26 Harlem Shuffle - Bob and Earl 26 26 23 2930
    17 27 I'll Pick A Rose For My Rose - Marv Johnson 28 24 27 2690
    NEW 28 Hello World - The Tremeloes 27 22 1765
    NEW 29 Maria Elena - Gene Pitney 23 30 1685
    28 30 Pinball Wizard - The Who 25 510
    25 Dancing In The Street - Martha Reeves and The Vandellas 29 500
    I Spy (For The FBI) - Jamo Thomas 29 400
    B I Don't Know Why - Stevie Wonder 30 29 370
    24 Soul Sister Brown Sugar - Sam and Dave 30 250
    30 Blackberry Way - The Move 0
    29 It's Too Late Now - Long John Baldry 0

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Woz1234 View Post
    Breakfast On Pluto by Don Partridge should be Joint 28 in RR with Ob La Di Ob La Da by The Marmalade on UAC 22nd March 1969
    I had used my original copy of The Guinness Book of Top 40 Singles and it had listed them at 28 and 29 Woz. However I note the later edition and my Graham Betts book have these at joint 28 as you say. As it would appear to be an error in the original book copy I have amended.

    Thanks. It keeps everything accurate.
    Brian

    Leave a comment:


  • Woz1234
    replied
    Breakfast On Pluto by Don Partridge should be Joint 28 in RR with Ob La Di Ob La Da by The Marmalade on UAC 22nd March 1969

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Just noticed the store figures are strange on the March 8th chart. Not a big deal, but thought I'd mention it.

    Leave a comment:

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