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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • I suspect it’s apathy. Does it matter, in one way, particularly to a record company, 8 years after the final chart that this is being chosen as the definitive chart? I am reading the old music weeks being posted on the American site and reading about the tie at number 1 (or not...) and the only reason they where annoyed was because they coul;dn;t use the tag “number 1 in the UK” at that point as a marketing tool. Would they have cared 8 years later?

    Take Please Please Me. in 1963 it either was or was not a number 1. 15 years later does that, to the record company, matter? To us of course it does! But to EMI when the bulk of those sales where done and any now would be on the name Beatles and not “former UK number 1”.

    I’d say again in 2001 or so when the chart canon was “officialized” it was decades later and it doesn’t matter - to the record labels.

    Maybe I’m being to glass half empty, but that would seem the logical case to me. My current job is a maths tutor for a company specialising in international students. Right now we care about student numbers this year and next year vs last year and the year before. We don’t really care about numbers from 10 years ago - unless we can use that as a competitive advantage or it adds to a big number. Record companies almost certainly work the same. “x sold 2,000,000 copies!” is what they care about, not “x was number 1 on this chart and 2 on this one so can we have this as the official chart”.

    I’m happy to be educated otherwise if anybody knows better than me, but the above, to me, seems logical and plausible.
    http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
    Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

    Comment


    • They could have included Please please me by chopping off about 4 minutes of Hey Jude.

      Twist and Shout was only no. 2 in Billboard, Nowhere man was no. 3 in Billboard, Strawberry Fields was no. 8 in Billboard

      Comment


      • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
        Twist and Shout was only no. 2 in Billboard
        But number one on both Cash Box and Music Vendor (later known as Record World). Arguably the second most significant omission on 1 after "Please Please Me". Also an EP chart number one in Record Retailer.

        They didn't even bother to follow the criteria of including all the Record Retailer and Billboard number ones consistently, as the case of the already mentioned "For You Blue" shows – number one on both Billboard and Record World (thanks to being listed together with its A-side) but missed out in Cash Box where they kept listing the sides separately. But they still included "Something" which was only a number two in Cash Box. Undeniably, this makes it much more popular than the Cash Box #71 hit "For You Blue", but neither song would have topped the chart without being combined with the other side of the single. And more controversially, you could also say the same about "Day Tripper" (number one in the UK as a double A-side, but not a top four hit on any of the US charts while "We Can Work It Out" was number one). So that makes a couple of number ones just as debatable as or more so than "Please Please Me"...

        Comment


        • But in the sleeve notes for 1 George Martin states,

          "This collection of number ones is taken from the most widely circulated charts in the UK (Record Mirror) and the USA (Billboard)."

          No other charts were considered.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
            But in the sleeve notes for 1 George Martin states,

            "This collection of number ones is taken from the most widely circulated charts in the UK (Record Mirror) and the USA (Billboard)."

            No other charts were considered.
            Which if nothing else explains the missing of Please Please Me.....
            http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
            Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

            Comment


            • "For the purposes of this database, we are following the most unanimously agreed lineage. Chart historians have long since agreed the NME published the pre-eminent singles chart from launch in November 1952 until February 1960, when the Record Retailer took over as the chart of choice. As far as albums are concerned the Record Mirror chart was the original (and most widely recognised) rundown, from July 1956 until March 1960, when the Record Retailer took over From this point in 1960, Record Retailer unified the albums and singles charts, remaining the source of choice through until early 1969 when BMRB took over the reins."

              The point is this is simply untrue. They can claim that these are the most readily available historic charts, but not that they were pre-eminent at the time or can be regarded as such now by any objective measure.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
                But in the sleeve notes for 1 George Martin states,

                "This collection of number ones is taken from the most widely circulated charts in the UK (Record Mirror) and the USA (Billboard)."

                No other charts were considered.
                Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post

                Which if nothing else explains the missing of Please Please Me.....
                But it doesn't explain why one of their Billboard number ones was omitted:

                https://books.google.fi/books?id=eSk...page&q&f=false

                Not that anyone will really miss "For You Blue" on the compilation, but it is a number one hit by the same criteria as "Something" (Billboard combined the sales and airplay of the more popular and the less popular side, listing them together). That just shows they couldn't even follow the criteria they supposedly used.

                RokinRobinOfLocksley A sixth one for the list: "Magical Mystery Tour" was number one in Melody Maker.

                Comment


                • I almost want to add one of those wikipedia tags you sometimes see

                  "following the most unanimously agreed lineage" [by who?].
                  http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                  Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                  Comment


                  • One thing that caught my eye on that page - 'Pretty Belinda' number one in Sweden!!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                      "For the purposes of this database, we are following the most unanimously agreed lineage. Chart historians have long since agreed the NME published the pre-eminent singles chart from launch in November 1952 until February 1960, when the Record Retailer took over as the chart of choice. As far as albums are concerned the Record Mirror chart was the original (and most widely recognised) rundown, from July 1956 until March 1960, when the Record Retailer took over From this point in 1960, Record Retailer unified the albums and singles charts, remaining the source of choice through until early 1969 when BMRB took over the reins."

                      The point is this is simply untrue. They can claim that these are the most readily available historic charts, but not that they were pre-eminent at the time or can be regarded as such now by any objective measure.
                      And the OCC can't even get their own description right about their own choice of album charts! They are using MM charts from Nov 1958-March 1960 which were Top 10 charts, not RM which were Top 5.

                      Comment


                      • Lonnie is right though. We can pontificate for ever but historically it doesn't matter. Apart from those of us still able to remember which charts were the most influential at the time history has been re-written and the modern world accepts what they have been brainwashed to believe. In a few years time even our arguments will be history and RR will stand unchallenged as the supreme chart. There will come a time nobody will have heard of the existence of any other charts. Take a look around, how many of them are commercially available even now.
                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                        Comment


                        • FYI, on the Record World chart, "Something/Come Together" was #1 for 2 weeks, then it flipped sides for the next 3 weeks at #1.

                          Joel Whitburn's Billboard Record Research books give "Something" a #3, it's peak before both record sides were combined. Prior to it hitting #1 as the b-side to "Come Together", it had been climbing up the charts while "Come Together" had been dropping down. Then boom, Billboard combines them together at #1.

                          But here's the problem: Joel only credits "Come Together" at #1, but would it have been #1 on its own without combining it with "Something"? In other words, both sides contributed to the single hitting #1, you can't give all the credit to just "Come Together". Joel should not have 'interpreted' the data for us, just give us the data as Billboard charted it. Give us the facts Jack, put your opinions in a note.

                          So in this case, I'm OK with "Something" being on the '1' CD, however as setg1 points out above, EMI didn't even follow their own rules for '1' regarding #1 b-sides.

                          Comment


                          • It was obvious why the Record Retailer chart was selected from 1960. When the first Guinness Book was published around 1976/77 the UK charts were a top 50 and displayed in every Record Shop in the UK. So it made no sense to use a chart smaller than a top 50. It would have left out huge amounts of hit records if they did use the top 30's only. Had Melody Maker not reduced down to a 30 in 1967, then they might have used that. The only way around it would have been to use all the charts in one book. But it would have been confusing to the readers and greatly increased the size of the book and of course production costs. Assuming Melody Maker and NME and the rest all agreed to the use of the charts.
                            Thanks to the digital format these days the cost of book production is cheaper. And we have seen the Record Mirror charts published by Colin Driscoll two years ago. So these early charts are not going to vanish and be forgotten. Someone will give fresh life to them, perhaps with new incites into them.
                            By the way has anyone actually contacted the NME to see what they did with their archives? You never know they might have the original shop sales or some of them!
                            Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                            Comment




                            • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                              Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 2nd 1963

                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 2nd 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
                              Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
                              Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                              1 1 Please Please Me - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 2 9870
                              2 2 The Wayward Wind - Frank Ifield 2 2 2 2 1 9600
                              4 3 The Night Has A Thousand Eyes - Bobby Vee 3 3 3 3 3 9240
                              6 4 Loop-De-Loop - Frankie Vaughan 4 5 5 4 5 8630
                              3 5 Diamonds - Jet Harris and Tony Meehan 5 7 4 6 4 8510
                              17 6 Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard 6 4 8 5 7 8170
                              12 7 That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown 7 6 7 7 6 8050
                              7 8 Island Of Dreams - The Springfields 8 8 6 8 9 7860
                              5 9 Little Town Flirt - Del Shannon 9 10 9 9 8 7190
                              10 10 Sukiyaki - Kenny Ball 11 12 10 14 10 6530
                              11 11 Walk Right In - The Rooftop Singers 10 11 12 11 11 6450
                              18 12 Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury 12 9 14 10 14 6310
                              8 13 All Alone Am I - Brenda Lee 13 14 11 12 12 6220
                              15 14 Have Nagila - The Spotnicks 14 16 13 13 13 5640
                              23 15 Hey Paula - Paul and Paula 15 15 15 16 17 5170
                              20 16 Tell Him - Billie Davis 16 17 16 15 21 4750
                              26 17 Charmaine - The Bachelors 17 13 20 20 18 4390
                              9 18 Bachelor Boy / The Next Time - Cliff Richard* 19 22 19 17 16 4320
                              14 19 Globetrotter - The Tornados 20 18 18 18 20 4230
                              13 20 Like I Do - Maureen Evans 18 21 17 19 15 4180
                              16 21 Don't You Think It's Time - Mike Berry 21 23 22 22 19 2960
                              19 22 A Taste Of Honey - Mr. Acker Bilk 22 24 21 23 22 2870
                              27 23 Hi-Lili Hi-Lo - Richard Chamberlain 23 20 25 21 25 2680
                              25 24 My Little Girl - The Crickets 24 23 27 23 1640
                              22 25 Big Girls Don't Cry - The Four Seasons 26= 24 24 1260
                              21 26 Dance On - The Shadows 25 26 24 27 1220
                              NEW 27 Cupboard Love - John Leyton 26= 25 29 25 1200
                              NEW 28 One Broken Heart For Sale - Elvis Presley 28 19 1200
                              24 29 Some Kinda Fun - Chris Montez 29 27 26 750
                              NEW 30 Boss Guitar - Duane Eddy 28 30 29 560
                              * This week the split sides would have affected NME's averaged chart position so an average was taken from the other 3 charts giving an average of 17.3 to Cliff Richard and awarded to NME to give a more representative chart position for both sides together.
                              Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard 26
                              The Next Time - Cliff Richard 27
                              B From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller 30 29 26 30 480
                              B Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades 27 400
                              29 It's Up To You - Rick Nelson 30 28 240
                              X My Kind Of Girl - Frank Sinatra 28 150
                              28 Loo-Be-Loo - The Chucks 30 100
                              B Pied Piper - Steve Race 29 100
                              30 The Alley Cat Song - David Thorne
                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                              Comment


                              • The Beatles successfully hold No 1 for a second week and keep Frank at bay at No 2.

                                Elvis doesn't know it yet but his chart dominance is over. Not only will his latest new entry fail to reach the top but will even fall short of the top ten. The shape of things to come with only occasional breakthrough.
                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                Comment


                                • Frank woz robbed

                                  I do believe that had it not been for Record Retailer's policy of not having tied positions then for one of the weeks (perhaps the first?) Frank Ifield and The Beatles would have been a joint number 1 as both records had the same amount of chart points. I did read that years ago, I don't know how true it is.

                                  Comment


                                  • That was one of the RR ties Dave Taylor said he had heard about. I don't see how the Beatles could have lost out on a tie though, even in the first week, using RRs 'trend' method of tiebreaking.

                                    Elvis and Cliff had peaked before the Beatles appeared, with their records no longer entering at no. 1. And the Beatles did not start achieving this until 'Hand'. I've always thought the Elvis peak outside the USA was too late anyway artistically - should have been in the Houndog period!

                                    The 'only chart with a 50 throughout' is an argument that I can accept for RR, but it is not the justification used now. It also has to be combined with a reason for not using composites, which are easier to calculate now. If the Guinness people had worksheets they could have used RR for only the lower positions. Similarly if RM really are the bees knees for LPs pre-60,.you could use MM for only positions below 5.

                                    As has been said, this is all academic now.

                                    But look at the charts above side-by-side, the Beatles are number one!
                                    Last edited by Splodj; Sat April 17, 2021, 12:31.

                                    Comment


                                    • One further thought, bearing in mind the Guinness compilers could not have reasonably been expected to do a composite at that time and wanted a 50.

                                      They could have applied the simple rule: 'When RR is the odd-one-out, the record that is number one in all the other charts shall prevail.'

                                      Comment


                                      • Maybe Guinness could have done what I did for the first time and produced a book listing all the charts side by side. I personally and probably lots of others too would have found such a book interesting and invaluable.
                                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                        Comment


                                        • The OCC should have used the Melody Maker charts. Then Penny Lane/Strawberry Fields Forever would have been no. 1 for 3 weeks.

                                          Comment


                                          • For me, either MM or NME fo the 1960’s would have been good. I don’t like the idea of a hybrid - Top 10 from this and 11-40 from this as it seems confusing to understand. Remember, the charts need to be understood by all so it’s easier to say “Compiled by xxx”.
                                            http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                            Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                                            Comment


                                            • There is something to be said for a hybrid chart. What Guinness / the OCC could have done was go with MM when it was a Top 50, then when it dropped to a Top 30 use MM for the upper 30, then add below that any other records from the other charts, going by which chart sampled the most record shops, which would be in order NME, then Disc, then RR. You have the best of both worlds, a more accurate chart at the top, and 50 records in total. Which totally beats a RR Top 50 no matter how you slice it. It's the middle ground between going with just 1 chart and doing an average chart, in terms of both accuracy and required work. (Of course, I wouldn't stop at a Top 50, I'd add in all records from every chart, including the bubblers.)

                                              Comment


                                              • If I was pressed without a doubt I would have gone with the MM chart without question if just one had to be selected. 1 It used the biggest sample, that alone placed it above all others. 2 From July 1960 the MM was totally into having the best chart service. 3 It was the only music paper to include Northern Ireland in its sample. 4 it included EP's but excluded LP'S, split sides, and advance orders. No other chart had the same credentials.
                                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                                Comment


                                                • So which of the 32 Beatles UK and US #1 records should have been included in the 27 tracks of the '1' CD? Which 27 were the biggest #1's? Adding up the total weeks at #1 on all 7 of the UK / US charts, the following 5 records would have been left off:

                                                  --Twist and Shout, only 2 total weeks at #1, across 2 charts
                                                  --Nowhere Man, only 2 total weeks at #1, across 1 chart
                                                  --Love Me Do, 3 total weeks at #1, across 3 charts
                                                  --Strawberry Fields Forever, 3 total weeks at #1, across 1 chart
                                                  --For You Blue, 4 total weeks at #1, across 2 charts

                                                  Lady Madonna also at 4 total weeks at #1, across 2 charts, would survive the chopping block because of a hierarchy tie breaker on the other charts, going 2-2-4-5 versus For You Blue 71-x-x-x.

                                                  Thus the only change to the '1' CD would be to replace Love Me Do with Please Please Me. That's the cold hearted math...

                                                  Comment


                                                  • I like your cold hearted maths Robin lol, but, I would propose keeping Love Me Do, keeping Please Please Me, but dropping Come Together. It was never going to be a #1 until Billboard combined it with Something.
                                                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                                    Comment

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