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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Splodj
    replied
    "No plan survives contact with the NME!"

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    I want to add that they may very well have tried to do all those things - tested, checked, corrections made, and authenticated pre launch. However, it could very well have bene such a different beast then they thought once it all started.

    I think I am right that this is the first sales only chart in the world? I know Billboard collected sales data since 1958 (I think I am right here) but did they use it as true sales or points? I don't want to digress into talk about Billboard, but the first I the world would be expected to have issues regardless.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Personally I can remember welcoming the new BMRB chart with open arms, being young and nave at the time I thought it was accurate down to every copy sold as it was presented at the time to be the all singing all dancing chart to remedy all that went before.

    No doubt about it, as it was a sales chart it presented a major step forward in the way we counted and recorded record sales to produce a chart. But in retrospect it was flawed in many respects for the initial years. I don't think the trial run for its inception was robust or thorough enough later proved by the problems in getting diaries returned in sufficient quantities to compile an authentic chart with no ties, and in having to discard so many poorly completed diaries. This also refers back to the quality of the trial period as obviously a huge number of the chart return shops were ill prepared or trained in diary completion or the sense of urgency in returning these timeously.

    As a result sadly the initial years delivered a chart full of inconsistencies, initial ties, dubious patterns of movement week on week therefore reducing its credibility as a robust chart.

    Perhaps a longer period of trial was necessary to bed in the new chart with to ensure it worked competently with a much higher proportion of useable diary return before being unleashed as the 'Official Chart', because its credibility was questionable thus diminishing its status sadly.
    In the light of this we really can't discount the points based system of MM or NME in this early period. They were still publishing a tried and true method of compilation from a much larger sample of stores and therefore their authenticity in these early years of the BMRB chart can't be discounted or underestimated. Their charts in these early years were still accepted in preference to the BMRB chart in many quarters.

    That's the tragedy here. The BMRB chart if properly tested, checked, corrections made, and authenticated pre launch should from the moment of introduction have been what it was intended to be, the 'Official Chart' without question. It failed us.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    I think the BBC would have been delighted with the new chart. Not just ahead of the game with The Israelites, but Lulu and others. I doubt they were concerned so much with the tie (their old chart had been riddled with them) as the indication that the sampling was lower than they had been promised. But they may have thought, as I do, that a sales chart with 85 stores is better than a points chart with many more.

    I don't think RR (or the BBC) could have unilaterally imposed a change of policy on BMRB as suggested.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    ^
    It's the first time I've been able to compare chart movement across the three charts for the early BMRB period so a big thanks to MrTibbs for the layout presentation of the UAC. It means I've been able to spot things like the chart progress of 'Israelites'.
    I think the earlier assessment of sales versus points accurately accounts for the good example Israelites provides Robbie. When all charts used points 30 points for example meant 30 points across all the charts equally irregardless of store size, but sales does alter this a bit. As mentioned in an earlier post larger stores selling big numbers of a record will obviously differ from the amount a small independent will sell of the same record so whereas 30 points from HMV would also be 30 points from Joe's Records, now, it could be 250 from HMV but still 30 (as in points) from Joe's.

    What I am trying to highlight here is BMRB positions as a sales chart, but in comparison how MM and NME still view current sales reflected on their points system. So you can take your pick, you go with the BMRB sales chart as the barometer of public opinion at this time with a still minimal return of diaries or you stick with the tried and true points based system from MM and NME with their far larger store sample.
    That is the dilemma lol.

    That is why this UAC is for 'fun' , although it is interesting too, with the main purpose of the posts for now being to continue to show all the main charts as comparisons week on week and a sales chart versus points charts

    I just love all these charts

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    It's possible that RR asked BMRB to instigate a tie breaker as too many tied places on a chart makes the chart look untidy, or at least it does to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post
    I think the number of diaries on time being low also contributed to this. We start to loose ties in a few months and after July or August (I need to check) we loose them completely bar for a few random cases.
    I noticed on the RR chart page for an October issue in 1969 a comment that stated 'tied positions are listed in alphabetical order'. Perhaps this is how they were now splitting them to account for the huge reduction in ties the chart was initially producing then tailed off from the second half of the year.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    ^
    It's the first time I've been able to compare chart movement across the three charts for the early BMRB period so a big thanks to MrTibbs for the layout presentation of the UAC. It means I've been able to spot things like the chart progress of 'Israelites'.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    'Israelites' really is flying up the BMRB chart.

    The way that BMRB seem to be ahead of the curve suggests that BMRB may be catching (or capturing) Saturday sales in a better way. Am I right in thinking that by now both the NME and MM charts are compiled from postal returns and not telephone calls? If so perhaps the retailers that provided sales information for those two charts were quick to get returns in and were missing out on Saturday trends. 'Israelites' was featured on Top Of The Pops on Thursday 27 March 1969 while the single was at number 21. The following week the single jumped to number 5, perhaps partly as a result of the TOTP effect on sales. On NME the single moved 22-14 while on MM it moved 28-18. The three charts weren't far out the week in which the single was aired on Top Of The Pops but the following week saw the single gain a massive sales boost on the BMRB charts which wasn't fully reflected on the NME and MM charts. Maybe the NME and MM charts have an earlier end of sales week cut off by this point?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    All three charts again agree on #1, and indeed on all top three positions. Stevie Wonder's I Don't Know Why is one of the rare Stevie Wonder records I didn't like at all. I much preferred the later flipped My Cherie Amour.

    Mary Hopkin enters with Goodbye and yet again in the weeks to come she will compete with label mates The Beatles for #1. It's interesting that Apple opted for both to go head to head again or just bad release planning.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 5th 1969.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 5th 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye 1 1 1 16050
    4 2 Gentle On My Mind - Dean Martin 2 2 2 15515
    5 3 Sorry Suzanne - The Hollies 3 3 3 14980
    2 4 Where Do You Go To My Lovely - Peter Sarstedt 5 4 7 13990
    3 5 Surround Yourself With Sorrow - Cilla Black 5 6 11 13150
    10 6 Games People Play - Joe South 7 7 8 12755
    17 7 Boom Bang-A-Bang - Lulu 8 8 4 12645
    9 8 Monsieur Dupont - Sandie Shaw 11 5 6 12625
    15 9 In The Bad Bad Old Days - The Foundations 4 10 9 12520
    7 10 First Of May - The Bee Gees 9 9 10 11685
    14 11 Get Ready - The Temptations 10 11 13 10730
    6 12 The Way It Used To Be - Engelbert Humperdick 12 13 16 9575
    8 13 Wichita Lineman - Glen Campbell 13 12 18 9455
    23 14 Israelites - Desmond Dekker and The Aces 14 18 5 8860
    12 15 Good Times (Better Times) - Cliff Richard 17 16 12 8165
    18 16 I Can Hear Music - The Beach Boys 15 17 18 7805
    11 17 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 18 14 20 7785
    13 18 If I Can Dream - Elvis Presley 19 15 15 7760
    20 19 Windmills Of Your Mind - Noel Harrison 20 20 14 6395
    16 20 Please Don't Go - Donald Peers 16 22 23 5930
    19 21 One Road - The Love Affair 21 19 24 5595
    26 22 Harlem Shuffle - Bob and Earl 24 21 21 4750
    30 23 Pinball Wizard - The Who 22 24 17 4740
    28 24 Hello World - The Tremeloes 23 23 22 4365
    NEW 25 I Don't Know Why - Stevie Wonder 25 27 26 2625
    24 26 Passing Strangers - Sarah Vaughan and Billy Eckstine 28 25 27 2440
    25 27 Don Juan - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 30 26 28 1705
    NEW 28 Goodbye - Mary Hopkin 26 25 1510
    NEW 29 Cupid - Johnny Nash 29 29 28 1155
    21 30 I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations 28 30 835
    X Sanctus - Les Troubadours Du Roi Badouin 27 800
    27 I'll Pick A Rose For My Rose - Marv Johnson 30 250
    29 Maria Elena - Gene Pitney 30 85
    22 (If Paradise Is) Half As Nice - Amen Corner
    Dancing In The Street - Martha Reeves and The Foundations

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  • Robbie
    replied
    MM really does seem behind the trend when compared to both NME and BMRB.

    'Israelites' in at number 23 - reggae finally has a breakthrough hit.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Motown gets its third #1 this week, they have had to wait nearly three years for it, after The Supremes in 1964 and The Four Tops in 1966.

    However MM still goes with Peter Sarstedt for another week at the top.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 29th 1969.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 29th 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    2 1 I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye 1 2 1 15800
    1 2 Where Do You Go To My Lovely - Peter Sarstedt 2 1 2 15765
    3 3 Surround Yourself With Sorrow - Cilla Black 4 3 3 14780
    6 4 Gentle On My Mind - Dean Martin 3 4 5 14560
    9 5 Sorry Suzanne - The Hollies 6 7 4 13295
    4 6 The Way It Used To Be - Engelbert Humperdinck 5 5 13 13230
    8 7 First Of May - The Bee Gees 7 8 7 12590
    5 8 Wichita Lineman - Glen Campbell 8 6 14 12295
    7 9 Monsieur Dupont - Sandie Shaw 9 9 8 11855
    16 10 Games People Play - Joe South 10 12 6 11075
    12 11 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 11 10 17 10440
    15 12 Good Times (Better Times) - Cliff Richard 15 11 12 9815
    14 13 If I Can Dream - Elvis Presley 13 14 11 9550
    19 14 Get Ready - The Temptations 14 15 10 9185
    21 15 In The Bad Bad Old Days - The Foundations 12 16 15 8910
    11 16 Please Don't Go - Donald Peers 16 13 20 8435
    24 17 Boom Bang-A-Bang - Lulu 17 19 9 7670
    22 18 I Can Hear Music - The Beach Boys 20 17 18 6805
    20 19 One Road - The Love Affair 18 20 19 6370
    18 20 Windmills Of Your Mind - Noel Harrison 19 22 16 5925
    10 21 I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations 21 18 5250
    13 22 (If Paradise Is) Half As Nice - Amen Corner 24 21 28 4155
    NEW 23 Israelites - Desmond Dekker and The Aces 22 28 21 3400
    27 24 Passing Strangers - Sarah Vaughan and Billy Eckstine 25 25 24 3295
    26 25 Don Juan - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 27 23 26 3225
    NEW 26 Harlem Shuffle - Bob and Earl 26 26 23 2930
    17 27 I'll Pick A Rose For My Rose - Marv Johnson 28 24 27 2690
    NEW 28 Hello World - The Tremeloes 27 22 1765
    NEW 29 Maria Elena - Gene Pitney 23 30 1685
    28 30 Pinball Wizard - The Who 25 510
    25 Dancing In The Street - Martha Reeves and The Vandellas 29 500
    I Spy (For The FBI) - Jamo Thomas 29 400
    B I Don't Know Why - Stevie Wonder 30 29 370
    24 Soul Sister Brown Sugar - Sam and Dave 30 250
    30 Blackberry Way - The Move 0
    29 It's Too Late Now - Long John Baldry 0

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Woz1234 View Post
    Breakfast On Pluto by Don Partridge should be Joint 28 in RR with Ob La Di Ob La Da by The Marmalade on UAC 22nd March 1969
    I had used my original copy of The Guinness Book of Top 40 Singles and it had listed them at 28 and 29 Woz. However I note the later edition and my Graham Betts book have these at joint 28 as you say. As it would appear to be an error in the original book copy I have amended.

    Thanks. It keeps everything accurate.
    Brian

    Leave a comment:


  • Woz1234
    replied
    Breakfast On Pluto by Don Partridge should be Joint 28 in RR with Ob La Di Ob La Da by The Marmalade on UAC 22nd March 1969

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Just noticed the store figures are strange on the March 8th chart. Not a big deal, but thought I'd mention it.

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    A sales chart can have ties if they sell exactly the same amount. However the statistics here should have prevented that. BMRB where used to taking surveys for other things including general elections but in those cases you only get a limited number of choices. In a general election - even with twenty parties standing- there or four come out near the top and the rest come out lower down. Ties in the lower ranked parties are inevitable and expected. So they probably used the same sort of logic here. It does mean that the model should have prevented ties this high up the chart so they needed to review the model.




    I think the number of diaries on time being low also contributed to this. We start to loose ties in a few months and after July or August (I need to check) we loose them completely bar for a few random cases.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Donald Peers had dropped to 9 then gone back up to 4 earlier with MM. Perhaps there were supply issues. The tie at 4 is weird though.
    That was back at the end of February and first week of March though Splodj. On reflection I am inclined to think it was more likely due to the way BMRB used their sample from their panel shops, differing the sample week on week using a different sample of shops. This would explain the Donald Peers pattern and also the fact throughout 1969 and well into 1970 you can see this yo yo effect on the BMRB chart where records climb, fall back considerably, then climb big again the following week.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Donald Peers had dropped to 9 then gone back up to 4 earlier with MM. Perhaps there were supply issues. The tie at 4 is weird though.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Chart Commentary

    All three charts agree once again on #1, and also #2.

    The Donald Peers record is a good example that something is still questionable at BMRB. Last week it dropped to #10 much in line with the other two charts, suddenly this week it accelerates away back up to #4 way out of touch with the other two charts then next week it will plummet all the way down to #20. I don't understand how that really strange pattern of movement could be explained.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 22nd 1969.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 22nd 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Where Do You Go To My Lovely - Peter Sarstedt 1 1 1 16050
    3 2 I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye 2 2 2 15515
    2 3 Surround Yourself With Sorrow - Cilla Black 3 3 6 14725
    7 4 The Way It Used To Be - Engelbert Humperdinck 4 5 3 14280
    4 5 Wichita Lineman - Glen Campbell 5 4 8 13905
    9 6 Gentle On My Mind - Dean Martin 6 6 4 13545
    8 7 Monsieur Dupont - Sandie Shaw 7 8 7 12590
    11 8 First Of May - The Bee Gees 8 7 9 12470
    17 9 Sorry Suzanne - The Hollies 10 9 12 11315
    6 10 I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations 9 10 19 10670
    10 11 Please Don't Go - Donald Peers 13 12 4 10645
    12 12 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 12 11 10 10585
    5 13 (If Paradise Is) Half As Nice - Amen Corner 10 15 15 9560
    15 14 If I Can Dream - Elvis Presley 14 14 11 9350
    14 15 Good Times (Better Times) - Cliff Richard 15 13 13 9230
    20 16 Games People Play - Joe South 20 16 14 7395
    13 17 I'll Pick A Rose For My Rose - Marv Johnson 16 18 23 6930
    19 18 Windmills Of Your Mind - Noel Harrison 17 19 21 6650
    22 19 Get Ready - The Temptations 24 17 17 6090
    23 20 One Road - The Love Affair 23 20 16 5625
    NEW 21 In The Bad Bad Old Days - The Foundations 18 24 18 5455
    24 22 I Can Hear Music - The Beach Boys 22 21 20 5235
    27 23 Boom Bang-A-Bang - Lulu 20 25 22 4465
    18 24 Soul Sister Brown Sugar - Sam and Dave 19 23 4400
    16 25 Dancing In The Street - Martha Reeves and The Vandellas 25 22 3450
    NEW 26 Don Juan - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 28 26 23 2530
    NEW 27 Passing Strangers - Sarah Vaughan and Billy Eckstine 30 27 30 1285
    NEW 28 Pinball Wizard - The Who 26 1000
    RE 29 It's Too Late Now - Long John Baldry 27 800
    21 30 Blackberry Way - The Move 28 750
    30 All The Love In The World - Consortium 29 27 740
    26 People - The Tymes 29 500
    B Maria Elena - Gene Pitney 25 510
    B Harlem Shuffle - Bob and Earl 26 425
    25 Albatross - Fleetwood Mac 30 250
    Ob La Di Ob La Da - The Marmalade 28 255
    X Breakfast On Pluto - Don Partridge 28 170
    28 Mockingbird - Inez and Charlie Foxx
    29 You Got Soul - Johnny Nash

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    All three charts again agree on the #1 record.

    In the Top Ten, only two charts agree at #2 and #10, and all three charts totally disagree with the other seven chart placings.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 15th 1969.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 15th 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Where Do You Go To My Lovely - Peter Sarstedt 1 1 1 16050
    6 2 Surround Yourself With Sorrow - Cilla Black 2 2 4 15345
    9 3 I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye 3 4 2 14815
    7 4 Wichita Lineman - Glen Campbell 6 3 8 13955
    2 5 (If Paradise Is) Half As Nice - Amen Corner 4 5 11 13600
    3 6 I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations 5 6 9 13320
    5 7 The Way It Used To Be - Engelbert Humperdinck 8 7 3 12980
    11 8 Monsieur Dupont - Sandie Shaw 9 8 7 12190
    13 9 Gentle On My Mind - Dean Martin 7 12 5 11760
    4 10 Please Don't Go - Donald Peers 10 9 10 11485
    17 11 First Of May - The Bee Gees 12 10 6 11175
    16 12 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 11 11 12 10615
    10 13 I'll Pick A Rose For My Rose - Marv Johnson 13 13 16 9375
    19 14 Good Times (Better Times) - Cliff Richard 14 14 15 9010
    22 15 If I Can Dream - Elvis Presley 15 15 13 8730
    8 16 Dancing In The Street - Martha Reeves and The Vandellas 16 16 17 7940
    NEW 17 Sorry Suzanne - The Hollies 17 19 14 7245
    14 18 Soul Sister Brown Sugar - Sam and Dave 17 17 23 6980
    28 19 Windmills Of Your Mind - Noel Harrison 20 21 19 5720
    NEW 20 Games People Play - Joe South 19 22 20 5585
    12 21 Blackberry Way - The Move 22 18 5050
    NEW 22 Get Ready - The Temptations 22 23 21 4650
    NEW 23 One Road - The Love Affair 24 24 18 4255
    30 24 I Can Hear Music - The Beach Boys 21 25 27 3840
    15 25 Albatross - Fleetwood Mac 20 24 3345
    24 26 People - The Tymes 28 26 25 2360
    NEW 27 Boom Bang-A-Bang - Lulu 25 22 1965
    NEW 28 Mockingbird - Inez and Charlie Foxx 25 29 1700
    18 29 You Got Soul - Johnny Nash 26 28 1505
    NEW 30 All The Love In The World - Consortium 27 800
    20 For Once In My Life - Stevie Wonder 28 750
    B In The Bad Bad Old Days - The Foundations 30 26 625
    27 I Spy (For The FBI) - Jamo Thomas 28 600
    21 I Guess I'll Always Love You - The Isley Brothers 30 250
    It's Too Late Now - Long John Baldry 29 170
    X Love Is Love - Barry Ryan 30 85
    23 To Love Somebody - Nina Simone
    26 You Ain't Livin' Till You're Lovin' - Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell
    25 Ob La Di Ob La Da - The Marmalade
    29 Move In A Little Closer - Harmony Grass

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    NME no longer the chart that places highest the new entries and other fast risers.

    Leave a comment:

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