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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • It's a pity because after two stunning singles Telstar and Globetrotter The Tornados next efforts Robot and Ice Cream Man were tame and unimaginative by comparison and their lower chart placings reflected this.
    The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

    The Biggest Chart Of The Time

    Comment


    • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
      Robin thanks for this detailed and highly informative piece of research. Your findings are eye opening especially that important chart positions sometimes were decided by drawing lots. All the more interesting given that we are talking about what is the purported 'official' chart. Its yet further evidence of what a joke the RR chart was.

      So the UK record industry, the BBC, and the OCC, continue to promote a shambolic thrown together chart using a handful of stores and another week's figures for ties and the toss of a coin to decide on a chart position as the chart of choice for the era. If it wasn't so serious I'd be rolling on the floor in stitches.
      It seems the toss of a coin was the favoured way of settling ties in football back in those days - it was used in both the World Cup and European Championships in the 1950s and 1960s so perhaps it was seen as the "sporting" way of splitting ties and maybe Record Retailer took inspiration from this! Liverpool progressed through to the semi-finals of the European Cup in 1965 on the toss of a coin. It would be ironic if the most famous group of all from the city had lost out on a number 1 single through the same method a couple of years earlier...

      Comment


      • Graham76man
        Graham76man commented
        Editing a comment
        Robin said "draw lots", which doesn't mean a coin toss. It's remarkable how people can run with an idea and it can continue to run, even though factually incorrect.

    • Too many coins to be tossed around in Football nowadays Robbie as we're seeing just now! However appropriate this method was thought to be in sporting contexts in the 1960s though, it is a shocker to hear that was ever utilised in the attribution of RR chart placings. For some this revelation may prove to be the final nail in the coffin of tolerating RR as the 'official' chart of record for the pre-1969 period, which begs the question what source could such disaffected pop-pickers rely on instead that has as transparent and fair an authority as possible? Well, I guess if they're UKMixers they at least have Mr T's UAC! This additional damage to RR's credibility for sixties charts can only be good for this tabulation as more may start relying on it, albeit that it carries no weight outside the users of this forum and sadly will never become a rival competitor for official status to the OCC's lazy reliance on RR.

      Comment


      • This week's Ultimate & BBC are remarkably similar!

        Thank-you Robin for those details. It certainly explains how records could have won a tiebreaker that would not on a straight 'trend' basis as used (irregularly) by the BBC. So that mystery is solved. But their system seems very strange to me. Why didn't they just look at the returns of their largest shops? Surely this would have given a more reliable picture than phoning one or two or tossing a coin.

        MM and Disc must have had ties after their initial computation, although not so many as RR. What method did they use?

        Comment


        • I have this vision of Wilder phoning NEMS in Liverpool. They tell him that the Beatles are far outselling Ifeld but, because their local fans were quick to buy Please Please Me, they sold less of it than the previous week. Wilder thereby determines that Ifield should stay as the RR no. 1!

          Comment


          • Graham posted:

            Robin said "draw lots", which doesn't mean a coin toss. It's remarkable how people can run with an idea and it can continue to run, even though factually incorrect.
            I did read what Robin posted, my reply was a tongue-in-cheek observation (and your reply shows why the comment facitlity should be little used as its not possible to directly respond to it).

            Drawing lots, i.e. something like straws or whatever would be even worse than a coin toss.

            Comment


            • Assuming Robin is right, which by the way he is partially wrong, since he quotes copies sold and the shops didn't supply that kind of information. All of these point based charts would have errors in them. Melody Maker having Cliff at four would have been wrong for a start. But if you really want to see how wrong these early charts were, you only have to go to 45 Cat and and search using the date February 1963 (no day number). UK and most collected.
              This will produce a list of 50 records with high owns on them. A good indication of what they sold like. Limiting to the first 30 of that 50, to compare with Mr Tibbs top 30 chart, I counted about 15 records that never went near the top 50 charts. And with the exception of the Embassy Records (sold only at Woolworths), which were only three. The rest were all sold in shops that could qualify for the charts. In vary high numbers indeed.
              I have found this system to be very reliable and the valuation numbers help to remove people wanting to own copies just for the money. What I tend to do is knock off a record owned for every pound. But if you look at that top 50 it's not full of valuable records. Many have high owns for no money. I have also calculated chart hits verses owns to find out how many owns their are on top 50 records, which shows what a record would need to make a top 50 chart. 14 for number 50 and anything above 70 for a number one.
              It's a pity they reduced the results down from 100 to 50. I have words with them on the subject, but they are not really interested in being a valuable resource for music historians and see the site as for "fun".
              That aside! With some records having owns of 80, more than some chart toppers and a chart position of say 45 on Record Retailer, even Mr Tibbs top 30 can't put records into the chart that were not in the other charts.
              These charts then become a card shuffle where the dealer (NME, MM, Disc,RR) has fiddled them already.
              Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

              Comment


              • I am confused. Is tossing a coin more random than drawing a lot?

                I suggest that the record enthusiasts who enter info on records owned on 45cat are not a representative cross section of people who bought records at the time they charted.
                Last edited by Splodj; Tue April 20, 2021, 13:20.

                Comment


                • Tossing a coin has 2 outcomes - heads or tails.
                  Drawing a lot from 2 straws has 2 outcomes - one straw or the other.
                  But it obviously changes if you use more than 2 straws.
                  Depends on your definition of what a "lot" is.

                  On-line definition,

                  Drawing lots - making a chance decision by using lots (straws or pebbles etc.) that are thrown or drawn.

                  Comment


                  • Graham76man
                    Graham76man commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Some of the comments on here are like the people in Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy that were dumped on Earth. Example:
                    "We have adopted the leaf as currency. So we have all become rich. But due to the high level of trees, we have hit an inflation problem. So to get around the problem we are going to burn down the forests!

                • Originally posted by Splodj View Post

                  I suggest that the record enthusiasts who enter info on records owned on 45cat are not a representative cross section of people who bought records at the time they charted.
                  Quite so - some artists are far more collectible than others. Years ago I did a detailed comparison (for the '70s) of 'owns' on 45cat with chart position attained. The correlation was fairly close but certain types of hit (easy listening, novelty) were "under-owned".

                  Last edited by Metalweb; Tue April 20, 2021, 14:39.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                    This week's Ultimate & BBC are remarkably similar!

                    Thank-you Robin for those details. It certainly explains how records could have won a tiebreaker that would not on a straight 'trend' basis as used (irregularly) by the BBC. So that mystery is solved. But their system seems very strange to me. Why didn't they just look at the returns of their largest shops? Surely this would have given a more reliable picture than phoning one or two or tossing a coin.

                    MM and Disc must have had ties after their initial computation, although not so many as RR. What method did they use?
                    This shows that adding record store returns as an extra tier in the averaging process is achieving its goal by fine tuning rather than distorting. I'm therefore more than happy with the outcome of the UAC in providing a more robust chart.

                    I too think using the largest shop return is the best and fairest way to break a tie hence why I have used this system right from the start.
                    The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                    The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                      I am confused. Is tossing a coin more random than drawing a lot?

                      I suggest that the record enthusiasts who enter info on records owned on 45cat are not a representative cross section of people who bought records at the time they charted.

                      I think you would find them a better sample then any of the record charts done at that time.
                      It doesn't have to be perfect either. Since you simply couldn't fit into a top 50 all the most owns on 45 Cat for any particular time. But a lot of the records especially in 1963, I can't see them having a great interest, but still a lot of owns, that didn't chart. Indeed you would expect to see many collectors after chart records and this is what you do find. It's rare that a top 50 record has very low owns on there. Even the ones you know where hyping failures. Often the ones that enter at 49 and go to 41, then fall to 46. Mostly in the 70's these. They still have high owns!
                      I wasn't implying that all the 15 records would have made the top 30. Simply because of the ones that were chart records keeping them out. But I reckon around five tended to get into the 30 that were not on the published charts. Remember these 60's chart treated each of it's shops supplying them with top 10's or whatever as the same. Some of the London stores alone (a single one) could have outsold several record shops in a survey! But they would have only got 10 points, but say 4 stores all had the same record at the top they would have got 40 points. But if it was based on records sold the four stores would have 20 points for there top seller and the one London store 80 points for it's number one that didn't make the top 30, whereas the four shop one did.

                      A comparison from 45 Cat "years ago" is no longer relevant. Since the site has grown rapidly and the members and records are vast numbers. In fact it's that big, they had to cut down the results due to technical issues with the numbers. Plus then they added the valuations, which shows what record collectors are after. If you want to be pedantic about the issue you just need to look at the wants and take that figure off too. But a lot of the Feb 1963 I saw didn't have any wants on.
                      Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                      Comment


                      • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                        Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 30th 1963

                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 30th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
                        Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
                        Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                        2 1 Foot Tapper - The Shadows 1 1 2 1 1 9750
                        1 2 Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard 2 2 1 2 2 9720
                        4 3 Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury 3 5 3 4 3 8990
                        10 4 From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller 4 4 4 5 4 8860
                        8 5 Charmaine - The Bachelors 5 6 6 8 6 8150
                        3 6 That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown 7= 8 5 9 8 7990
                        5 7 Please Please Me - The Beatles 7= 9 7 7 7 7720
                        20 8 How Do You Do It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 6 3 12 3 10 7680
                        13 9 Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades 9 11 8 6 9 7360
                        7 10 Island Of Dreams - The Springfields 10 10 9 11 5 7180
                        15 11 Say Wonderful Things - Ronnie Carroll 11 7 13 10 11 6750
                        6 12 The Night Has A Thousand Eyes - Bobby Vee 12= 13 10 15 13 6290
                        9 13 Hey Paula - Paul and Paula 12= 15 11 13 12 6070
                        16 14 Brown Eyed Handsome Man - Buddy Holly 14 12 15 12 16 5700
                        14 15 Tell Him - Billie Davis 15 14 14 14 15 5580
                        11 16 The Wayward Wind - Frank Ifield 17 17 16 16 17 4820
                        12 17 One Broken Heart For Sale - Elvis Presley 16 16 17 18 14 4760
                        21 18 Let's Turkey Trot / Old Smokey Locomotion - Little Eva 18 18 19 19 18 4090
                        28 19 The Folk Singer - Tommy Roe 19 19 20 17 19 3910
                        25 20 Robot - The Tornados 22 19 21 20 30 3280
                        19 21 Cupboard Love - John Leyton 20 28 18 21 22 3020
                        26 22 In Dreams - Roy Orbison 21 22 23 23 20 2830
                        17 23 Loop-De-Loop - Frankie Vaughan 24= 30 22 26 21 2000
                        NEW 24 Mr Bass Man - Johnny Cymbal 24= 23 27 24 25 1930
                        27 25 All Alone Am I - Brenda Lee 23 27 26 22 23 1840
                        NEW 26 The End Of The World - Skeeter Davis 26 25 28 28 24 1410
                        22 27 Walk Right In - The Rooftop Singers 27= 24 27 1170
                        18 28 Diamonds - Jet Harris and Tony Meehan 27= 25 26 1050
                        NEW 29 Say I Won't Be There - The Springfields 30 21 1000
                        NEW 30 So It Will Always Be - The Everly Brothers 27= 23 28 890
                        B Walk Like A Man - The Four Seasons 26 30 550
                        X Can You Forgive Me - Karl Denver 29 25 500
                        23 Hava Nagila - The Spotnicks 29 29 400
                        24 Hi-Lili Hi-Lo - Richard Chamberlain 30 29 210
                        X Fireball XL5 - Don Spencer 27 200
                        29 Sukiyaki - Kenny Ball
                        30 Little Town Flirt - Del Shannon
                        The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                        The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                        Comment


                        • Cliff surrenders #1 to the Shadows this week. It will be the last time The Shadows top the chart and will this year lose their crown as top British group to The Beatles, another indication of changes to come in 1963.
                          The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                          The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                          Comment


                          • How Do You Do It? - Gerry and The Pacemakers

                            3 in NME and Disc, but only 12 in MM. How can that be as a Top 3 record usually sells in large quantities?
                            Last edited by brian05; Wed April 21, 2021, 14:56. Reason: missing question mark

                            Comment


                            • MrTibbs
                              MrTibbs commented
                              Editing a comment
                              At some point every one of the charts threw up an odd statistic like this Brian. Don't ask me how lol.

                          • Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
                            BMRB is a question. In one post (2014) Alan says starting out BMRB barely got above 20% of 300 supposed returns (= 60 shops). In another post (2014), he says they only got 10 to 25% of returns available or valid to use (assuming of 300 = 30 to 75 shops). In a 3rd post (2012), he says BMRB doesn't hold a record of the proportion of early returns, but based on the number of tied positions, the math suggests they only received 20-25% (assuming of 300 = 60 to 75 shops). Going for the max, that would mean 75 shops starting out before ramping up. For the upper end ramp up, in earlier posts above someone found 2 BMRB/BPI reports of 200+ shops prior to 1976, and Cable's book notes 159 out of 299 returns for a specific week in 1976. So a 200 max ramp up sounds reasonable. Thus if it were me, I'd start with 75 shops, then ramp up to 200.
                            Alan also says (in his History of Record Retailer thread) that after receiving the postal returns BMRB made 50 supplementary phone calls. Are these included in the returns figures cited?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Splodj View Post

                              Alan also says (in his History of Record Retailer thread) that after receiving the postal returns BMRB made 50 supplementary phone calls. Are these included in the returns figures cited?
                              I do not believe they were. I have seen that they used these to check the other sellers for fiddling going off. In fact if the 50 shops couldn't confirm sales, the records were removed from the full survey. These were specific shops that were NOT included in the chart return shops.
                              I have read that the top 50 was read out to the checking shops. I would guess (not certain on this bit) the person on the phone was asked yes or no to did you sell any?
                              Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Splodj View Post

                                Alan also says (in his History of Record Retailer thread) that after receiving the postal returns BMRB made 50 supplementary phone calls. Are these included in the returns figures cited?
                                I would imagine that even if this were the case, and I mean if, it was once the BMRB chart was fully established and averaging around 200 returns mid seventies but I have to admit that came as news to me that BMRB phoned 50 random stores as it seems a bit pointless an exercise when they used specific diaries for their returns which had to be correctly completed for inclusion in the chart or were discarded.
                                The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                Comment


                                • The 50 random stores were used as part of the security / validation check process. The stores were contacted on a Tuesday morning after a provisional chart had been compiled. There's an article in Rock File 4 (published in 1976) which explains the process. Basically every new entry, fast riser and breaker had to pass a statistical test at the telephone check and if there were insufficient correct answers for a record then it was taken out of the charts.

                                  Comment


                                  • The 31 to 50 positions were never that reliable anyway, hence why the BBC never referred to them and stuck to the Top 30 only. The sales levels were so low below no 30 that a few hundred copies was sufficient to bag a chart place.

                                    So at which point did the BMRB commence the random telephone checks, as it isn't likely it was in the early years given that the initial returned diaries were only around 75 and that's being generous ?
                                    The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                    The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                    Comment


                                    • The telephone checks were carried out from day one. I found this article by chance doing a Google search on BMRB a few years ago, It's a J Walter Thompson Company News publication dated June 20, 1969 and includes an article on the new BMRB chart. I remember thinking it was quite a good find! The article is on page 3 and includes the following paragraph

                                      "Our security measures are somewhat hysterical," explains Peter Meneer, "but they insure the validity of the charts." Only staffers directly involved with the project are admitted to the room where the charts are compiled and the key punch operators are rotated each week. For the Singles chart, only half the shops' returns are used each week—and a different half each week. As a double-check, 50 shops that are not on the sample—and a different 50 each week—are rung up to verify the new chart entries!
                                      https://dukelibraries.contentdm.oclc...12393/download

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
                                        The telephone checks were carried out from day one
                                        But were they just checks for confirmation Robbie or were these 50 information telephone calls also included on the chart ?
                                        The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                        The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                        Comment


                                        • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                                          Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 6th 1963

                                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 6th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
                                          Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
                                          Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                          8 1 How Do You Do It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 1 1 2 1 2 9720
                                          1 2 Foot Tapper - The Shadows 2 2 1 3 4 9610
                                          4 3 From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller 3 3 3 2 3 9290
                                          2 4 Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard 4 4 4 4 1 9000
                                          3 5 Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury 5 6 5 7 5 8380
                                          9 6 Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades 6 7 6 5 7 8170
                                          11 7 Say Wonderful Things - Ronnie Carroll 7 5 9 6 6 7900
                                          5 8 Charmaine - The Bachelors 8 8 7 8 8 7740
                                          14 9 Brown Eyed Handsome Man - Buddy Holly 9 9 8 9 9 7410
                                          6 10 That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown 10 10 10 11 10 6880
                                          19 11 The Folk Singer - Tommy Roe 11 11 12 10 13 6440
                                          10 12 Island Of Dreams - The Springfields 13 12 11 12 15 6330
                                          7 13 Please Please Me - The Beatles 12 13 13 13 11 6000
                                          13 14 Hey Paula - Paul and Paula 14 17 14 16 12 5270
                                          18 15 Let's Turkey Trot / Old Smokey Locomotion - Little Eva 15 19 15 14 14 4960
                                          20 16 Robot - The Tornados 17 14 18 17 24 4560
                                          22 17 In Dreams - Roy Orbison 16 18 17 19 17 4420
                                          12 18 The Night Has A Thousand Eyes - Bobby Vee 20 25 16 20 18 3790
                                          15 19 Tell Him - Billie Davis 19 21 19 22 16 3700
                                          29 20 Say I Won't Be There - The Springfields 18 14 25 15 22 3670
                                          NEW 21 Walk Like A Man - The Four Seasons 21 16 26 18 23 3140
                                          26 22 The End Of The World - Skeeter Davis 22 20 24 23 21 2850
                                          21 23 Cupboard Love - John Leyton 24 26 20 21 26 2800
                                          17 24 One Broken Heart For Sale - Elvis Presley 23 24 21 27 19 2760
                                          24 25 Mr Bass Man - Johnny Cymbal 25 22 23 24 25 2630
                                          16 26 The Wayward Wind - Frank Ifield 26 22 25 20 1980
                                          30 27 So It Will Always Be - The Everly Brothers 27 23 27 28 27 1670
                                          NEW 28 Can't Get Used To Losing You - Andy Williams 28 26 29 26 28 1140
                                          25 29 All Alone Am I - Brenda Lee 29 28 29 510
                                          NEW 30 Losing You - Brenda Lee 30 28 300
                                          X Hi-Lili Hi-Lo - Richard Chamberlain 29 300
                                          B Code Of Love - Mike Sarne 29 200
                                          X I Wanna Be Around - Tony Bennett 30 100
                                          X My Little Baby - Mike Berry 30 100
                                          X Can You Forgive Me - Karl Denver 29 100
                                          X Fireball XL5 - Don Spencer 30 50
                                          B Count On Me - Julie Grant 30 30
                                          23 Loop-De-Loop - Frankie Vaughan
                                          27 Walk Right In - The Rooftop Singers
                                          28 Diamonds - Jet Harris and Tony Meehan
                                          The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                          The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                          Comment


                                          • The Shadows last #1 single only survives one solitary week at #1 as Gerry and The Pacemakers stride from 8 to 1 with How Do You Do It ? .. it seems that's how its done !
                                            The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                            The Biggest Chart Of The Time

                                            Comment


                                            • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

                                              But were they just checks for confirmation Robbie or were these 50 information telephone calls also included on the chart ?
                                              My interpretation of both the article from 1969 and the Rock File 4 article from 1976, is that the shops that were telephoned as part of the security / verification process wouldn't also have been part of the sample. That would compromise the validity of both the security checks and the sample itself.

                                              Comment

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