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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I think you are going to find these on going comparisons more and more interesting as we progress deeper into 1969. There are some very strange movements and patterns to come in BMRB where it goes way out of the range of MM and NME. But this has to be balanced with some striking similarities as well.

    As an overview though having worked on 1969 in its entirety I too think the BMRB chart to be a big improvement over RR, although like I said it does have some very odd chart movements to come.

    Leave a comment:


  • Metalweb
    replied
    Reading these fascinating charts reminds me I compiled, many years ago, some interesting (hopefully!) lists of singles that performed better on the NME/MM charts than the official MMRB/Gallup charts in the '70- '88 period.

    Will dig them out and post in a separate thread...

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Actually the Daily Sketch was still going in 1969, only merging with the Daily Mail in 1971.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Newspapers continued carrying MM and NME charts well into the 70s. I imagine Billboard had budgeted for some of them to come over and must have been disappointed. The earliest newspaper I can recall carrying the BMRB chart was The Sun, some time after it went tabloid in November 1969.

    Daily Mail - NME, Daily Mirror and Daily Telegraph - MM

    Sunday Mirror - NME midweek, News of the World and The People - MM midweek

    (Early 60s, the Sunday Mirror had carried MM midweek. before changing to NME. The Daily Sketch had also carried NME.)

    These newspaper charts should be more accessible now newspaper archives are available to subscribers. The Glasgow Evening Times is freely available online and was still carrying the MM chart mid-70's. Many local evening papers carried an NME chart on Saturdays.

    I recall Radio 1 DJs being triumphant about their new chart and how it had been the first to put Amen Corner at number one. The Radio 1 Annual printed the first chart with the previous week's BBC chart figures and claimed the movement between the two showed how more up-to-date the new chart was.

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  • Robbie
    replied
    At the start of the BMRB charts, what newspapers were carrying which charts? Obviously for the music press, NME and MM were publishing their own charts and RR and RM were publishing the BMRB charts. But what about the daily and Sunday newspapers? Plus of course Radio 1 and TOTP were using the BMRB charts.

    The trend I'm expecting to see is that the BMRB chart was fresher (newer hits, hits climbing quicker to peak positions and hits falling down and off the charts quicker). One way this will becoming apparent will be the amount of records listed on each chart that are below the top 30 on the UAC. On the last two charts there have been 7 titles listed as being on at least one of the charts but which have never scored enough points to make the UAC top 30 that week. It will be interesting to see if the amount becomes larger on a regular basis.

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  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Interesting observation: as we've seen, RR has generally / most times been the 'odd man out' chart vs NME and MM, across most of the 60s. What could explain that? Either RR was better than NME/MM, or worse. Because of the low sample of record shops, the correlation / implication is that RR was worse.

    Now consider BMRB. A better / more accurate method. If RR was truly better than NME/MM then one would expect BMRB to be 'apart' from NME/MM as well. But just the opposite appears to be happening: BMRB is 'closer' to NME/MM than was RR, at least at this early stage.

    Of course, more BMRB charts will need to be compared against NME/MM for a deeper analysis, but if this holds up then this is even more evidence affirming that RR was not a better chart vs NME/MM, it was indeed worse, and thus should not be acclaimed as 'official' for the 60s.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    I will continue as planned as all the comparisons, by your comments, are proving interesting

    Here is the 'fun' Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 22nd 1969.

    Let's see what you make of this one

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 22nd 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    5 1 (If Paradise Is) Half As Nice - Amen Corner 1 1 1 16050
    12 2 Where Do You Go To My Lovely - Peter Sarstedt 2 3 2 15265
    1 3 Blackberry Way - The Move 3 2 5 15060
    4 4 I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations 4 4 3 14530
    6 5 Dancing In The Street - Martha Reeves and The Vandellas 5 5 7 13740
    2 6 Albatross - Fleetwood Mac 5 6 6 13575
    7 7 You Got Soul - Johnny Nash 7 7 8 12755
    8 8 Please Don't Go - Donald Peers 9 9 4 12195
    3 9 For Once In My Life - Stevie Wonder 8 8 10 12135
    9 10 To Love Somebody - Nina Simone 10 10 12 11065
    16 11 I'll Pick A Rose For My Rose - Marv Johnson 12 12 13 10080
    18 12 The Way It Used To Be - Engelbert Humperdinck 11 15 9 9870
    10 13 Ob La Di Ob La Da - The Marmalade 14 11 14 9845
    13 14 I Guess I'll Always Love You - The Isley Brothers 13 13 15 9460
    17 15 People - The Tymes 15 14 18 8555
    21 16 Wichita Lineman - Glen Campbell 16 17 11 8200
    11 17 Fox On The Run - Manfredd Mann 17 16 16 7825
    20 18 Soul Sister Brown Sugar - Sam and Dave 18 18 17 7040
    14 19 Something's Happening - Herman's Hermits 21 19 20 5935
    22 20 Mrs. Robinson (EP) - Simon and Garfunkel 19 22 5543
    15 21 Private Number - William Bell and Judy Clay 20 21 29 4870
    24 22 You Ain't Livin' Till You're Lovin' - Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell 22 24 21 4400
    26 23 Move In A Little Closer - Harmony Grass 26 20 24 4345
    27 24 Hey Jude - Wilson Pickett 24 23 3400
    NEW 25 Monsieur Dupont - Sandie Shaw 27 26 23 2730
    NEW 26 Surround Yourself With Sorrow - Cilla Black 23 18 2705
    25 27 Going Up The Country - Canned Heat 29 25 27 2240
    NEW 28 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 24 28 30 2235
    23 29 Lily The Pink - The Scaffold 29 22 1265
    19 30 Stop Her On Sight / Headline News - Edwin Starr 30 27 1200
    B I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye 27 30 30 1135
    B Gentle On My Mind - Dean Martin 25 510
    White Room - Cream 30 28 455
    A Minute Of Your Time - Tom Jones 26 425
    28 Build Me Up Buttercup - The Foundations
    29 Love Child - Diana Ross and The Supremes
    30 Love Story - Jethro Tull

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    That is the overall impression I had at the time - that BMRB was more closely aligned than RR had been. And in turn RR was closer in 1969 than it had been in earlier years, as towards the end RR was showing impressive signs of near-normality.

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  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Some interesting data, looking at chart position hi-lo ranges, and outliers, for the Feb-8-1969 charts (NME-MM-RR) vs the Feb-15-69 charts (NME-MM-BMRB).

    ----------------

    For Feb-8-69, the average record chart position swing range (across all 3 charts) = averaging the hi minus the lo, = 6.87 chart positions. For the Top 10 = 4.00.

    For Feb-15-69, the average record chart position swing range was 4.93 chart positions. The Top 10 = 2.70.

    So BMRB was much closer to NME and MM than was RR.

    ----------------

    For Feb-9-69, the average record outlier was 5.67 chart positions. For the Top 10 = 3.30.

    For Feb-15-69, the average record outlier was 3.76 chart positions. For the Top 10 = 1.80.

    Again, BMRB was much closer to NME and MM than was RR.

    ----------------

    For Feb-8-69, NME was the outlier chart for 6.5 records; MM 7 records; RR 15.5 records. So NME was most often 'the middle' chart (fewest outliers), followed closely by MM; RR was most often the farthest chart from the middle (most outliers).

    For Feb-15-69, NME was the outlier chart for 13 records; MM 4.5 records; BMRB 10.5 records. Thus MM was most often the middle chart (fewest outliers), BMRB and NME farther away (more outliers).

    ----------------

    So looking at BMRB vs NME and MM, at this point in time Feb-15-69, all 3 charts are in relatively close agreement with each other. More so in the Top 10. MM and BMRB are especially close in the Top 10 in terms of outliers, MM 1.5 vs BMRB 2.5. (I award half outliers for tied distances over and under the middle position.)

    MM and BMRB are 17 total chart points apart in the Top 10 (sum of absolute value of differences). NME and BMRB by 20. NME and MM by 17. One to another, very close.

    ----------------

    Of course this is looking at only 2 weeks of charts, one would have to study a lot more weekly charts in order to get a deeper trend. But I had time to kill, ha...

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  • Splodj
    replied
    I'd say that in general there is a correlation between Points and Sales but there are certain circumstances where Sales can identify something more clearly and Half As Nice was such a case. An example of a points system failing would be where larger stores are selling twice as much of a record than the runner up and this is obscured by smaller stores giving maverick results because of lower volumes.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Graham, speaking for me, I don't get 'upset' by some of your comments. We can disagree sometimes without being offended. You provide a lot of good historical knowledge, documents, opinions, yada yada, that have benefitted everyone here. It would be a great disappointment if you cease posting because you are offended by some of our comments. The best part about UKMix is we all learn from each other. Peace, luv, n Ringo...

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Yes I am not disputing the diary figure, just think that BMRB should be given credit for counting sales and being more professional overall. However I suggested that before and no-one agreed, and some specifically disagreed, so concede defeat. In any case, even if they were given equal weighting (as the BBC did previously) Amen Corner still wouldn't be the composite number one.

    If you just showed the three columns you would still have to present the records in a particular order, so you might as well number them.
    I agree that the BMRB METHOD is better than counting chart points. Obviously. But at this early stage of the game/the first several years, considering how few shops were sampled, the RESULTS may not have been any or significantly better. There were 6000-8000 record shops out there, depending on your source. Using the Cable book BPI chart of sales vs record positions for a month of 1976, and doing the math, the curves of chart points vs sales are very much in agreement. True, the chart positions did not agree for every record, several were swapped backwards, but overall, chart points are very meaningful even if they aren't exact. And especially so if that's all you have for the pre-Feb 1969 era.

    Of course the more shops that BMRB/Gallup added over the years would make it not only the best method but also eventually giving the best results. But BMRB starting out in Feb 1969 with so few shops, fewer than NME or MM, and based on the info we have, I don't see how it can be said that BMRB's results were meaningfully superior. If each chart were sampling 3% of the record shops in the UK, that means 91% of the record shops were NOT being sampled.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    As people are upset by my comments all the time and Mr Tibbs takes everything I say personally, or ignores me, which is worse, I will cease posting on this thread after this post.
    These charts were started in good faith, but they are now a joke and I can ensure you that I am not the only person that thinks calling them the "ultimate" is a joke too.
    If anyone was offended, by me, than I am sorry about that.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Or another solution, Brian could give us BOTH: the weighted average by record shops, and the simple unweighted average per what the BBC was doing before. So Brian, please do one or the other or both, but don't drop an average altogether. This is your thread, do what YOU want...

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Good stuff, continue on Brian !! This 'fun' chart serves 2 purposes, (1) it gives us a comparison of all the charts, and (2) it gives a weighted average. If some of us don't like the weighted average, then ignore it, it's that simple. Showing all the charts together is a very, very good thing, no matter what you think of them individually. It's history !! (Personally, I would have liked the Top Pops/Music Now chart included as well, if not in the weighted average then at least off to the side. But that's just me.)

    I'm OK with the BMRB weighting starting out at 85 shops and sliding up to 200 or whatever by March 1971. This is very close to what Alan Smith researched. BMRB's 'goal' was to sample 250 shops, and compare those results against 50 others not in the sample. As BPI documents and other articles have stated (referenced, linked, and posted in this thread), this 250/300 goal was not accomplished till much later. Thus weighting BMRB with 250/300 record shops at the beginning (Feb 1969) appears not to be historical truth. As we shall see, and as Alan pointed out, there were so many ties with BMRB during the first 6 months, this should've been impossible with 250/300 record shops.

    (I'd also be glad to see NME and MM vs BMRB/Gallup up thru 1988, and even vs MRIB after that. The more the merrier...)

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Yes I am not disputing the diary figure, just think that BMRB should be given credit for counting sales and being more professional overall. However I suggested that before and no-one agreed, and some specifically disagreed, so concede defeat. In any case, even if they were given equal weighting (as the BBC did previously) Amen Corner still wouldn't be the composite number one.

    If you just showed the three columns you would still have to present the records in a particular order, so you might as well number them.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    At this point though Splodj remember BMRB were only using 75 to 85 diaries. They may have still been right though with Amen corner. It is important to remember that the average 'fun' chart is just that, it should not be compared to the BMRB/RR chart it is just meant to show how an average chart would have looked if it had continued.

    It is a useful sideshow to seeing the MM, NME, BMRB charts lined up together for the first time for comparison. That said if you guys prefer I can drop the average chart and just post the other three charts lined up ?

    I have amended the chart to now reflect BMRB rather than RR like you suggest.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I don't think they were using 'at least 250 or 300' shops to start with. I do think however that they were now the most professional chart operation and that they correctly identified 'Half As Nice' as the top selling record that week. Both NME and MM put it top the following week as if to say: "Yeah they were right". 'I'm Gonna Make You Love Me' was racing up the chart and looked more likely to be the next number one if you were going to 'fix' it to be ahead, so what made BMRB put Amen Corner there? I'd say it was because counting sales gave them a more accurate picture than counting points.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    That's all your worried about? I think the fact it was using at least 250 or 300 shops - not 85 is a bigger concern.
    Last edited by kingofskiffle; Fri May 28, 2021, 13:26. Reason: removing swearing

  • Splodj
    replied
    Shouldn't the chart on the right now be described as BMRB? RR is no longer compiling it - just acting as a publisher of it like the BBC and RM.

    I think there is a world of difference between one guy adding up points and a professional survey organisation computing sales and then doing a 50 store audit. I see it as a gigantic step forward in UK chart compilation which should not be tainted by the flawed pre-69 RR chart.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Well here we go ! Something Old Something New.

    Just to remind you of the 'Breaker' codes.

    Blank - A record that has previously been on the chart.
    B - A record that will chart in the weeks to come.
    X - A record that will not make the chart.
    A number indicates the position last week of a record that has dropped out of last week's chart

    The Last Week positions are those from The Ultimate Averaged Chart of 8th February 1969.

    So, Here is the first 'fun' Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 15th 1969.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 15th 1969 NME MM BM
    RB
    Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    2 1 Blackberry Way - The Move 1 1 3 15880
    1 2 Albatross - Fleetwood Mac 2 2 2 15515
    3 3 For Once In My Life - Stevie Wonder 3 4 4 14645
    12 4 I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations 6 3 8 13955
    14 5 (If Paradise Is) Half As Nice - Amen Corner 4 7 1 13950
    7 6 Dancing In The Street - Martha Reeves and The Vandellas 7 5 5 13510
    5 7 You Got Soul - Johnny Nash 5 6 7 13490
    11 8 Please Don't Go - Donald Peers 10 8 6 12075
    10 9 To Love Somebody - Nina Simone 8 11 10 11385
    4 10 Ob La Di Ob La Da - The Marmalade 11 9 9 11370
    6 11 Fox On The Run - Manfredd Mann 12 10 13 10580
    22 12 Where Do You Go To My Lovely - Peter Sarstedt 9 13 12 10515
    15 13 I Guess I'll Always Love You - The Isley Brothers 13 13 11 9800
    8 14 Something's Happening - Herman's Hermits 15 15 14 8645
    9 15 Private Number - William Bell and Judy Clay 17 12 22 8315
    18 16 I'll Pick A Rose For My Rose - Marv Johnson 14 17 16 8175
    19 17 People - The Tymes 16 16 21 7600
    30 18 The Way It Used To Be - Engelbert Humperdinck 18 20 15 6710
    13 19 Stop Her On Sight / Headline News - Edwin Starr 25 18 18 5555
    NEW 20 Soul Sister Brown Sugar - Sam and Dave 19 23 23 5080
    NEW 21 Wichita Lineman - Glen Campbell 20 22 26 4875
    24 22 Mrs. Robinson (EP) - Simon and Garfunkel 20 24 4715
    16 23 Lily The Pink - The Scaffold 19 19 4020
    NEW 24 You Ain't Livin' Till You're Lovin' - Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell 23 25 29 3270
    28 25 Going Up The Country - Canned Heat 24 29 19 2920
    27 26 Move In A Little Closer - Harmony Grass 22 28 27 2890
    25 27 Hey Jude - Wilson Pickett 28 27 16 2875
    17 28 Build Me Up Buttercup - The Foundations 21 28 2755
    20 29 Love Child - Diana Ross and The Supremes 30 26 1450
    29 30 Love Story - Jethro Tull 26 1000
    X She's Not There - Neil MacArthur 27 800
    B Monsieur Dupont - Sandie Shaw 28 600
    B It's Too Late Now - Long John Baldry 24 595
    21 Quick Joey Small - The Kasenetz-Katz Singing Orchestral Circus 25 510
    23 Sabre Dance - Love Sculpture 30 250
    White Room - Cream 30 85
    26 I'm The Urban Spaceman - The Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    My apologies for the delay in mentioning it, but in the 14th December chart, Heinz is actually a re-entry, as it was at 27 on the 30th November chart..
    Oops ! thanks for that heads up brain, I have amended the December 14th chart to reflect this

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    My apologies for the delay in mentioning it, but in the 14th December chart, Heinz is actually a re-entry, as it was at 27 on the 30th November chart..

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    In which case if they are for fun, you need to start them on a new thread, or In my opinion you will downgrade your original charts. Or do you see them as a joke too?

  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Woz1234 View Post
    Are we not doing the fifties [1958 & 1959] charts anymore?
    Most definitely Woz. Above chart is just until March 1971 when it is generally accepted the BMRB chart after the postal strike generally became more established and accepted. So yeah 56 to 59 will be following like I always promised.

    Leave a comment:

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