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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

    But were they just checks for confirmation Robbie or were these 50 information telephone calls also included on the chart ?
    My interpretation of both the article from 1969 and the Rock File 4 article from 1976, is that the shops that were telephoned as part of the security / verification process wouldn't also have been part of the sample. That would compromise the validity of both the security checks and the sample itself.

    Comment


    • That makes sense.

      But it says they made 50 calls in 1969. To have had a survey of 75 and then make 50 calls seems a ridiculous ratio. I suspect either the survey was larger or the calls fewer.

      It will be interesting to see what records appear only in NME or MM that appeared to have failed the BMRB security test!
      Last edited by Splodj; Thu April 22, 2021, 12:41.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
        That makes sense.

        But it says they made 50 calls in 1969. To have had a survey of 75 and then make 50 calls seems a ridiculous ratio. I suspect either the survey was larger or the calls fewer.

        It will be interesting to see what records appear only in NME or MM that appeared to have failed the BMRB security test!
        The calls were probably fewer though not necessarily so. In the article Peter Meneer refers to the 300 shops chart panel as well as the 50 telephone calls. That's how the system was supposed to work though as we know it didn't in practice regarding the amount of diaries being returned. Alisa Walker, who managed the actual chart operations, gave the same outline in the Rock File 4 article. I've now found a link to a scan of the Rock File 4 article (see pages 4 to 10 for the full article)

        https://www.pdf-archive.com/2021/03/...ck-file001.pdf

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
          That makes sense.

          But it says they made 50 calls in 1969. To have had a survey of 75 and then make 50 calls seems a ridiculous ratio. I suspect either the survey was larger or the calls fewer.

          It will be interesting to see what records appear only in NME or MM that appeared to have failed the BMRB security test!
          The BBC were paying for the charts to be compiled when BMRB took over. So in the contract if BMRB specified 300 shops were taking part, then what they probably meant that 250 were part of the survey and 50 shops were security. The 75 figure is probably erroneous, or not based on figures. As several people on UKMIX forum have pointed out the BMRB chart used a representative sample to represent the UK, therefore if any shop didn't report back it was still accounted for, based on another shop of the same size and area. So regardless of what was sent to them it was still based on 250 shops, representing ALL the rest.
          As Robbie pointed out they seem to have everything in place from day one.
          As for what failed you just need to look at the first BMRB chart and the NME and Melody Maker, were both the point based charts failed to get the number one right and contained several records (especially MM) that were not in the top 50!
          Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

          Comment


          • Alisa Walker of BMRB, in the Rock File 4 article, emphasises that the chart panel was 300 record shops and the telephone checks were made to an additional 50 shops that were not part of the panel. In an ideal world this would have meant that the chart would have been compiled from 250 of 300 returned diaries with an additional 50 shops - who wouldn't have been sent a diary - being phoned at random to verify sales patterns.

            (reply to Graham's post of 13:20)

            Comment


            • So RR was,
              Cliff 1
              Gerry 2
              Ned 3
              Shadows 4
              Billy 5

              and RM was,
              Gerry 1
              Ned 2
              Cliff 3
              Shadows 4
              Billy 5

              Very strange!

              Comment


              • chartwatcherdl Just to add to the conversation, I've been sent by chartwatcherdl the chart scan, so I have added to Dropbox and it's here

                https://www.dropbox.com/s/y0ruvskxeh...irror.jpg?dl=0
                http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                Comment


                • Very interesting (and thanks chartwatcherdl ). I wonder what happened there?

                  However, as RR was the original source chart I would suggest we have to stand by Cliff having another week at the top on RR rather than Gerry getting there a week early. I have a feeling though that the RM version of the chart is more likely to be correct. Did RR go to print much earlier than RM? Perhaps there was an error and RM received an amended chart but then RR decided to stand by their original chart for 06/04/63. Gerry at number 1 and Cliff at number 3 follows the trend of the other charts.

                  Comment


                  • So this confirms that only the Top 3 positions are different between RR and RM.

                    So RR was,
                    Cliff 1
                    Gerry 2
                    Ned 3

                    and RM was,
                    Gerry 1
                    Ned 2
                    Cliff 3

                    Wonder what happened that week?

                    I want the RM chart!!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by chartwatcherdl View Post

                      I have a scan of the actual chart from RM for April 6th and can confirm that the positions shown were as follows:

                      1 (10) Gerry & Pacemakers
                      2 (4) Ned Miller
                      3 (2) Cliff & Shadows
                      4 (1) Shadows
                      Thanks for that info chartwatcherdl. That is an interesting source chart.

                      That was also what Tony Jasper had in his Top Twenty Book also which he obviously lifted from RM rather than RR. Soooo ! Which chart was correct ! We will never definitively know which made the error as both at the time printed a different top four and neither corrected.

                      The only thing I will add is that as RM took the chart from RR the error in the transmission of information is likeliest at the RM end.

                      At least The Ultimate smoothes it out placing Gerry on top consistent with all other charts.
                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                        The only thing I will add is that as RM took the chart from RR the error in the transmission of information is likeliest at the RM end.
                        Not necessarily. The RR (4th April) could have got it wrong, corrected it and sent it to RM (6th April).
                        The RM chart makes more sense if you consider several weeks.
                        Did Cliff really go 1, 2, 1, 6?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
                          Not necessarily. The RR (4th April) could have got it wrong, corrected it and sent it to RM (6th April).
                          And the mistake could have boiled down to one thing - that they discovered they had allocated too many points to Cliff.

                          Comment


                          • Which begs the question: how many more times did RR and RM disagree 1962 to 1969?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by brian05 View Post

                              Not necessarily. The RR (4th April) could have got it wrong, corrected it and sent it to RM (6th April).
                              The RM chart makes more sense if you consider several weeks.
                              Did Cliff really go 1, 2, 1, 6?
                              It is important to remember though that all RM did was carry the RR chart in the same way the music papers carried the American Billboard or Cashbox chart. RM just had permission to use and print the RR chart, it did not contribute or was involved in any way in its production. So it was not two chart producing papers disagreeing.

                              If RR had made an error it would almost certainly have corrected this also in its own chart and not just sent the amended chart to RM. That would not seem logical.

                              Given Record Retailers long history as you have seen of being the odd one out many times in chart positioning it is not unrealistic to see Cliff regain the chart summit.
                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
                                It's a J Walter Thompson Company News publication dated June 20, 1969 and includes an article on the new BMRB chart.
                                The article says: "It all began back in 1966 when the Sunday Times ran an article in which a record company questioned the absence of one of their LPs from the charts, despite its high sales." I'm curious; what was that LP?

                                It also says that the BBC and RR put in the same amount of money. On the face of it the broadcast rights seem more valuable than the press rights (although I seem to recall that when The Sun went tabloid it took the chart) so I wonder if this is the main reason the BBC took only the Top 30 - to redress this imbalance somewhat by giving RR/RM the exclusive rights to publish positions below 30.

                                Comment


                                • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                                  Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 13th 1963

                                  Let's hope RR and RM agree this week

                                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 13th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
                                  Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
                                  Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                  1 1 How Do You Do It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 1 1 1 1 1 9900
                                  3 2 From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller 2 2 2 2 2 9570
                                  2 3 Foot Tapper - The Shadows 3 3 3 3 3 9240
                                  6 4 Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades 4 4 5 4 5 8730
                                  4 5 Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard 6 5 4 7 6 8600
                                  9 6 Brown Eyed Handsome Man - Buddy Holly 5 7 6 5 4 8260
                                  7 7 Say Wonderful Things - Ronnie Carroll 7 5 7 6 7 8170
                                  5 8 Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury 8 9 8 10 9 7360
                                  11 9 The Folk Singer - Tommy Roe 9 10 9 8 10 7180
                                  8 10 Charmaine - The Bachelors 10 11 10 12 8 6790
                                  20 11 Say I Won't Be There - The Springfields 11 8 15 9 11 6400
                                  15 12 Let's Turkey Trot / Old Smokey Locomotion - Little Eva 12 14 13 13 13 5840
                                  12 13 Island Of Dreams - The Springfields 14 16 11 15 15 5780
                                  17 14 In Dreams - Roy Orbison 13 15 16 14 12 5270
                                  16 15 Robot - The Tornados 17 16 12 21 19 5210
                                  10 16 That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown 16 19 14 18 14 4910
                                  21 17 Walk Like A Man - The Four Seasons 15 13 19 17 16 4750
                                  13 18 Please Please Me - The Beatles 19 22 17 20 17 3970
                                  28 19 Can't Get Used To Losing You - Andy Williams 18 18 25 11 21 3500
                                  22 20 The End Of The World - Skeeter Davis 20 21 21 19 20 3430
                                  14 21 Hey Paula - Paul and Paula 21 25 18 25 18 3240
                                  25 22 Mr Bass Man - Johnny Cymbal 23 22 20 22 24 3210
                                  NEW 23 Nobody's Darlin' But Mine - Frank Ifield 22 12 28 16 30 3130
                                  30 24 Losing You - Brenda Lee 24 20 26 24 27 2320
                                  23 25 Cupboard Love - John Leyton 26 29 22 23 22 2220
                                  27 26 So It Will Always Be - The Everly Brothers 25 24 27 27 23 1740
                                  19 27 Tell Him - Billie Davis 27 23 30 25 1430
                                  18 28 The Night Has A Thousand Eyes - Bobby Vee 30 24 26 29 1360
                                  24 29 One Broken Heart For Sale - Elvis Presley 28 27 29 28 790
                                  NEW 30 Our Day Will Come - Ruby and The Romantics 29 26 500
                                  B Code Of Love - Mike Sarne 28 29 400
                                  B Count On Me - Julie Grant 30 26 250
                                  26 The Wayward Wind - Frank Ifield 30 150
                                  B He's So Fine - The Chiffons 28 150
                                  29 All Alone Am I - Brenda Lee
                                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                                    My reading of the article is that RR received the income from selling on the charts to newspapers.

                                    There is a distinction between saying that the sales for 31+ were too close for accuracy and that they feared hyped records, which the security/verification process was designed to eliminate.

                                    As mentioned before, many ILR stations chose to have only a Top 30.
                                    I think that's true, if the 31 to 50 positions were too close to call that is the area that some suspect records would thrive in falling below the radar even with checks, and those positions were always best used as a guide, 'Breakers', really. The BBC didn't get many things right chartwise but deciding to stick with just the Top 30 was a wise move.
                                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                    Comment


                                    • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                                      Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 20th 1963

                                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 20th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
                                      Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
                                      Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                      1 1 How Do You Do It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 1 1 1 1 1 9900
                                      2 2 From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller 2 2 2 2 2 9570
                                      6 3 Brown Eyed Handsome Man - Buddy Holly 3 3 5 4 3 8890
                                      3 4 Foot Tapper - The Shadows 5 4 4 5 6 8800
                                      4 5 Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades 4 7 3 3 5 8780
                                      11 6 Say I Won't Be There - The Springfields 6 5 7 6 7 8170
                                      9 7 The Folk Singer - Tommy Roe 7 8 6 8 4 8010
                                      7 8 Say Wonderful Things - Ronnie Carroll 8 9 9 7 8 7390
                                      5 9 Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard 9 12 8 9 9 7110
                                      14 10 In Dreams - Roy Orbison 10 11 10 12 10 6730
                                      17 11 Walk Like A Man - The Four Seasons 11 14 12 11 13 6090
                                      8 12 Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury 12 16 11 13 11 6000
                                      23 13 Nobody's Darlin' But Mine - Frank Ifield 13 10 15 14 14 5860
                                      10 14 Charmaine - The Bachelors 14 15 13 16 12 5620
                                      NEW 15 From Me To You - The Beatles 15 6 19 10 23 5590
                                      19 16 Can't Get Used To Losing You - Andy Williams 16 13 16 15 15 5330
                                      12 17 Let's Turkey Trot / Old Smokey Locomaotion - Little Eva 17 18 14 17 18 4940
                                      15 18 Robot - The Tornados 18 19 17 18 17 4370
                                      13 19 Island Of Dreams - The Springfields 19 21 18 19 16 4000
                                      24 20 Losing You - Brenda Lee 20 17 22 20 20 3630
                                      20 21 The End Of The World - Skeeter Davis 21 22 20 21 19 3410
                                      16 22 That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown 22 23 21 22 21 3050
                                      22 23 Mr Bass Man - Johnny Cymbal 23 20 24 24 27 2620
                                      26 24 So It Will Always Be - The Everly Brothers 26 24 27 26 28 1640
                                      18 25 Please Please Me - The Beatles 24 23 28 22 1620
                                      21 26 Hey Paula - Paul and Paula 25 29 25 25 24 1610
                                      25 27 Cupboard Love - John Leyton 27 26 23 25 1330
                                      NEW 28 Count On Me - Julie Grant 28= 28 29 30 26 800
                                      NEW 29 Casablanca - Kenny Ball 25 600
                                      NEW 30 He's So Fine - The Chiffons 27 27 600
                                      B Code Of Love - Mike Sarne 28= 28 29 30 580
                                      X Can You Forgive Me - Karl Denver 30 26 500
                                      27 Tell Him - Billie Davis 30 29 210
                                      30 Our Day Will Come - Ruby and The Romantics 30 100
                                      28 The Night Has A Thousand Eyes - Bobby Vee
                                      29 One Broken Heart For Sale - Elvis Presley
                                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                      Comment


                                      • The Beatles bandwagon gains more momentum as From Me To You storms in at #15.

                                        George Harrison, err sorry, The Chiffons are new at #30
                                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                                          The Beatles bandwagon gains more momentum as From Me To You storms in at #15.

                                          George Harrison, err sorry, The Chiffons are new at #30
                                          It's amazing how Brian Epstein is cranking out these Beatles records before the previous record has had a chance to fall off the charts. I wonder if that could have hurt sales of the older record, hmmm...

                                          Regarding George and The Chiffons, for those who don't know George has said he did NOT copy "He's So Fine" for "My Sweet Lord", rather he was copying "Oh Happy Day" by the Edwin Hawkins Singers. All 3 records very similar...

                                          Comment


                                          • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                                            Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 27th 1963

                                            The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 27th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
                                            Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
                                            Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                            1 1 How Do You Do It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 1 2 1 1 1 9800
                                            15 2 From Me To You - The Beatles 2 1 3 2 3 9490
                                            2 3 From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller 3 3 2 3 2 9420
                                            6 4 Say I Won't Be There - The Springfields 4 5 4 4 5 8780
                                            13 5 Nobody's Darlin' But Mine - Frank Ifield 5 4 8 5 6 8200
                                            3 6 Brown Eyed Handsome Man - Buddy Holly 7 6 6 6 10 8130
                                            7 7 The Folk Singer - Tommy Roe 6 7 7 9 4 7910
                                            5 8 Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades 8 11 5 8 7 7770
                                            16 9 Can't Get Used To Losing You - Andy Williams 9 7 10 7 11 7350
                                            4 10 Foot Tapper - The Shadows 11 10 9 10 9 7110
                                            10 11 In Dreams - Roy Orbison 10 7 11 11 8 7090
                                            11 12 Walk Like A Man - The Four Seasons 12 12 12 12 12 6270
                                            8 13 Say Wonderful Things - Ronnie Carroll 13= 14 13 13 14 5810
                                            9 14 Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard 13= 13 14 14 13 5740
                                            20 15 Losing You - Brenda Lee 15 15 16 15 16 5100
                                            12 16 Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury 17 18 15 18 17 4770
                                            14 17 Charmaine - The Bachelors 16 19 17 16 15 4530
                                            17 18 Let's Turkey Trot / Old Smokey Locomotion - Little Eva 18 20 18 17 19 4110
                                            21 19 The End Of The World - Skeeter Davis 19 21 21 20 18 3440
                                            18 20 Robot - The Tornados 20 23 19 21 21 3400
                                            30 21 He's So Fine - The Chiffons 21 17 23 22 22 3320
                                            19 22 Island Of Dreams - The Springfields 22 20 23 20 2380
                                            23 23 Mr Bass Man - Johnny Cymbal 24= 26 22 26 25 2280
                                            28 24 Count On Me - Julie Grant 24= 24 24 27 24 2160
                                            NEW 25 Scarlett O'Hara - Jet Harris And Tony Meehan 23 16 19 2100
                                            24 26 So It Will Always Be - The Everly Brothers 26 27 25 25 23 1840
                                            NEW 27 Two Kinds Of Teardrops - Del Shannon 27 22 24 1250
                                            22 28 That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown 28 26 26 900
                                            NEW 29 Code Of Love - Mike Sarne 29 27 29 29 760
                                            29 30 Casablanca - Kenny Ball 30 24 700
                                            25 Please Please Me - The Beatles 28 30 480
                                            27 Cupboard Love - John Leyton 29 27 420
                                            X Can You Forgive Me - Karl Denver 28 300
                                            26 Hey Paula - Paul and Paula 30 28 240
                                            B Deck Of Cards - Wink Martindale 29 200
                                            Our Day Will Come - Ruby and The Romantics 28 150
                                            X It's My Way Of Loving You - Miki and Griff 30 100
                                            X Some Other Guy - The Big Three 30 50
                                            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                            Comment


                                            • The Beatles don't waste any time and take a jump from 15 to 2.

                                              One of my favourite records from 1963 debuts at 25, Jet Harris and Tony Meehan with Scarlett O'Hara. Where are records of this calibre now. Gone I fear.
                                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                              Comment


                                              • Lennon & McCartney were dismissive of 'Thank You Girl', the B-side, but it was often played by John Peel on his hippy Perfumed Garden radio show in 1967. Also it was chosen as the 4th track on their second EP 'Beatles Hits', although I suppose they only had the choice of 3 B-sides.

                                                Comment


                                                • From the sleeve notes on Beatles - Past Masters by Kevin Howlett.

                                                  "Please please me was released on 11th January 1963. The single topped all but one of the UK charts, including the BBC's list used for its Pick of the Pops programme. For British fans, if DJ Alan Freeman announced that it was a number one, then a genuine number one it was."

                                                  So tell that to the OCC.

                                                  Comment


                                                  • Thanks for that brian05. Which version of Past Masters was that, LP, CD, original, reissue, box set, all of the above? This is more fuel to the fire that EMI has changed their stance on Please Please Me in later years. After originally claiming PPM was #1 on the PPM album and several EPs (1963), they later denied it with The Beatles 20 Greatest Hits LP (1982) and the '1' CD (2000). And have now flipped back. Supposedly the Live at the BBC CD Vol 2 now reclaims PPM as #1 as well. Glad to see EMI has come back around. Of course, they now need to fix and reissue the '1' CD to make this right !!

                                                    Comment

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