The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[Splodj]

That makes sense.

But it says they made 50 calls in 1969. To have had a survey of 75 and then make 50 calls seems a ridiculous ratio. I suspect either the survey was larger or the calls fewer.

It will be interesting to see what records appear only in NME or MM that appeared to have failed the BMRB security test!

[Robbie]

That makes sense.

But it says they made 50 calls in 1969. To have had a survey of 75 and then make 50 calls seems a ridiculous ratio. I suspect either the survey was larger or the calls fewer.

It will be interesting to see what records appear only in NME or MM that appeared to have failed the BMRB security test!

The calls were probably fewer though not necessarily so. In the article Peter Meneer refers to the 300 shops chart panel as well as the 50 telephone calls. That's how the system was supposed to work though as we know it didn't in practice regarding the amount of diaries being returned. Alisa Walker, who managed the actual chart operations, gave the same outline in the Rock File 4 article. I've now found a link to a scan of the Rock File 4 article (see pages 4 to 10 for the full article)

https://www.pdf-archive.com/2021/03/...ck-file001.pdf

[Graham76man]

That makes sense.

But it says they made 50 calls in 1969. To have had a survey of 75 and then make 50 calls seems a ridiculous ratio. I suspect either the survey was larger or the calls fewer.

It will be interesting to see what records appear only in NME or MM that appeared to have failed the BMRB security test!

The BBC were paying for the charts to be compiled when BMRB took over. So in the contract if BMRB specified 300 shops were taking part, then what they probably meant that 250 were part of the survey and 50 shops were security. The 75 figure is probably erroneous, or not based on figures. As several people on UKMIX forum have pointed out the BMRB chart used a representative sample to represent the UK, therefore if any shop didn't report back it was still accounted for, based on another shop of the same size and area. So regardless of what was sent to them it was still based on 250 shops, representing ALL the rest.
As Robbie pointed out they seem to have everything in place from day one.
As for what failed you just need to look at the first BMRB chart and the NME and Melody Maker, were both the point based charts failed to get the number one right and contained several records (especially MM) that were not in the top 50!

[Robbie]

Alisa Walker of BMRB, in the Rock File 4 article, emphasises that the chart panel was 300 record shops and the telephone checks were made to an additional 50 shops that were not part of the panel. In an ideal world this would have meant that the chart would have been compiled from 250 of 300 returned diaries with an additional 50 shops - who wouldn't have been sent a diary - being phoned at random to verify sales patterns.

(reply to Graham's post of 13:20)

[brian05]

So RR was,
Cliff 1
Gerry 2
Ned 3
Shadows 4
Billy 5

and RM was,
Gerry 1
Ned 2
Cliff 3
Shadows 4
Billy 5

Very strange!

[kingofskiffle]

chartwatcherdl Just to add to the conversation, I've been sent by chartwatcherdl the chart scan, so I have added to Dropbox and it's here

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y0ruvskxeh...irror.jpg?dl=0

[Robbie]

Very interesting (and thanks chartwatcherdl ). I wonder what happened there?

However, as RR was the original source chart I would suggest we have to stand by Cliff having another week at the top on RR rather than Gerry getting there a week early. I have a feeling though that the RM version of the chart is more likely to be correct. Did RR go to print much earlier than RM? Perhaps there was an error and RM received an amended chart but then RR decided to stand by their original chart for 06/04/63. Gerry at number 1 and Cliff at number 3 follows the trend of the other charts.

[brian05]

So this confirms that only the Top 3 positions are different between RR and RM.

So RR was,
Cliff 1
Gerry 2
Ned 3

and RM was,
Gerry 1
Ned 2
Cliff 3

Wonder what happened that week?

I want the RM chart!!

[MrTibbs]

I have a scan of the actual chart from RM for April 6th and can confirm that the positions shown were as follows:

1 (10) Gerry & Pacemakers
2 (4) Ned Miller
3 (2) Cliff & Shadows
4 (1) Shadows

Thanks for that info chartwatcherdl. That is an interesting source chart.

That was also what Tony Jasper had in his Top Twenty Book also which he obviously lifted from RM rather than RR. Soooo ! Which chart was correct ! We will never definitively know which made the error as both at the time printed a different top four and neither corrected.

The only thing I will add is that as RM took the chart from RR the error in the transmission of information is likeliest at the RM end.

At least The Ultimate smoothes it out placing Gerry on top consistent with all other charts.

[brian05]

The only thing I will add is that as RM took the chart from RR the error in the transmission of information is likeliest at the RM end.

Not necessarily. The RR (4th April) could have got it wrong, corrected it and sent it to RM (6th April).
The RM chart makes more sense if you consider several weeks.
Did Cliff really go 1, 2, 1, 6?

[Splodj]

Not necessarily. The RR (4th April) could have got it wrong, corrected it and sent it to RM (6th April).

And the mistake could have boiled down to one thing - that they discovered they had allocated too many points to Cliff.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Which begs the question: how many more times did RR and RM disagree 1962 to 1969?

[MrTibbs]

Not necessarily. The RR (4th April) could have got it wrong, corrected it and sent it to RM (6th April).
The RM chart makes more sense if you consider several weeks.
Did Cliff really go 1, 2, 1, 6?

It is important to remember though that all RM did was carry the RR chart in the same way the music papers carried the American Billboard or Cashbox chart. RM just had permission to use and print the RR chart, it did not contribute or was involved in any way in its production. So it was not two chart producing papers disagreeing.

If RR had made an error it would almost certainly have corrected this also in its own chart and not just sent the amended chart to RM. That would not seem logical.

Given Record Retailers long history as you have seen of being the odd one out many times in chart positioning it is not unrealistic to see Cliff regain the chart summit.

[Splodj]

It's a J Walter Thompson Company News publication dated June 20, 1969 and includes an article on the new BMRB chart.

The article says: "It all began back in 1966 when the Sunday Times ran an article in which a record company questioned the absence of one of their LPs from the charts, despite its high sales." I'm curious; what was that LP?

It also says that the BBC and RR put in the same amount of money. On the face of it the broadcast rights seem more valuable than the press rights (although I seem to recall that when The Sun went tabloid it took the chart) so I wonder if this is the main reason the BBC took only the Top 30 - to redress this imbalance somewhat by giving RR/RM the exclusive rights to publish positions below 30.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 13th 1963

Let's hope RR and RM agree this week

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 13th 1963								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	100	150	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	How Do You Do It - Gerry and The Pacemakers					1	1	1	1	1	9900
3	2	From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller					2	2	2	2	2	9570
2	3	Foot Tapper - The Shadows					3	3	3	3	3	9240
6	4	Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades					4	4	5	4	5	8730
4	5	Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard					6	5	4	7	6	8600
9	6	Brown Eyed Handsome Man - Buddy Holly					5	7	6	5	4	8260
7	7	Say Wonderful Things - Ronnie Carroll					7	5	7	6	7	8170
5	8	Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury					8	9	8	10	9	7360
11	9	The Folk Singer - Tommy Roe					9	10	9	8	10	7180
8	10	Charmaine - The Bachelors					10	11	10	12	8	6790
20	11	Say I Won't Be There - The Springfields					11	8	15	9	11	6400
15	12	Let's Turkey Trot / Old Smokey Locomotion - Little Eva					12	14	13	13	13	5840
12	13	Island Of Dreams - The Springfields					14	16	11	15	15	5780
17	14	In Dreams - Roy Orbison					13	15	16	14	12	5270
16	15	Robot - The Tornados					17	16	12	21	19	5210
10	16	That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown					16	19	14	18	14	4910
21	17	Walk Like A Man - The Four Seasons					15	13	19	17	16	4750
13	18	Please Please Me - The Beatles					19	22	17	20	17	3970
28	19	Can't Get Used To Losing You - Andy Williams					18	18	25	11	21	3500
22	20	The End Of The World - Skeeter Davis					20	21	21	19	20	3430
14	21	Hey Paula - Paul and Paula					21	25	18	25	18	3240
25	22	Mr Bass Man - Johnny Cymbal					23	22	20	22	24	3210
NEW	23	Nobody's Darlin' But Mine - Frank Ifield					22	12	28	16	30	3130
30	24	Losing You - Brenda Lee					24	20	26	24	27	2320
23	25	Cupboard Love - John Leyton					26	29	22	23	22	2220
27	26	So It Will Always Be - The Everly Brothers					25	24	27	27	23	1740
19	27	Tell Him - Billie Davis					27		23	30	25	1430
18	28	The Night Has A Thousand Eyes - Bobby Vee					30		24	26	29	1360
24	29	One Broken Heart For Sale - Elvis Presley					28	27	29		28	790
NEW	30	Our Day Will Come - Ruby and The Romantics					29	26				500
B		Code Of Love - Mike Sarne						28		29		400
B		Count On Me - Julie Grant						30			26	250
26		The Wayward Wind - Frank Ifield							30			150
B		He's So Fine - The Chiffons								28		150
29		All Alone Am I - Brenda Lee

[MrTibbs]

My reading of the article is that RR received the income from selling on the charts to newspapers.

There is a distinction between saying that the sales for 31+ were too close for accuracy and that they feared hyped records, which the security/verification process was designed to eliminate.

As mentioned before, many ILR stations chose to have only a Top 30.

I think that's true, if the 31 to 50 positions were too close to call that is the area that some suspect records would thrive in falling below the radar even with checks, and those positions were always best used as a guide, 'Breakers', really. The BBC didn't get many things right chartwise but deciding to stick with just the Top 30 was a wise move.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 20th 1963

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 20th 1963								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	100	150	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	How Do You Do It - Gerry and The Pacemakers					1	1	1	1	1	9900
2	2	From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller					2	2	2	2	2	9570
6	3	Brown Eyed Handsome Man - Buddy Holly					3	3	5	4	3	8890
3	4	Foot Tapper - The Shadows					5	4	4	5	6	8800
4	5	Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades					4	7	3	3	5	8780
11	6	Say I Won't Be There - The Springfields					6	5	7	6	7	8170
9	7	The Folk Singer - Tommy Roe					7	8	6	8	4	8010
7	8	Say Wonderful Things - Ronnie Carroll					8	9	9	7	8	7390
5	9	Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard					9	12	8	9	9	7110
14	10	In Dreams - Roy Orbison					10	11	10	12	10	6730
17	11	Walk Like A Man - The Four Seasons					11	14	12	11	13	6090
8	12	Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury					12	16	11	13	11	6000
23	13	Nobody's Darlin' But Mine - Frank Ifield					13	10	15	14	14	5860
10	14	Charmaine - The Bachelors					14	15	13	16	12	5620
NEW	15	From Me To You - The Beatles					15	6	19	10	23	5590
19	16	Can't Get Used To Losing You - Andy Williams					16	13	16	15	15	5330
12	17	Let's Turkey Trot / Old Smokey Locomaotion - Little Eva					17	18	14	17	18	4940
15	18	Robot - The Tornados					18	19	17	18	17	4370
13	19	Island Of Dreams - The Springfields					19	21	18	19	16	4000
24	20	Losing You - Brenda Lee					20	17	22	20	20	3630
20	21	The End Of The World - Skeeter Davis					21	22	20	21	19	3410
16	22	That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown					22	23	21	22	21	3050
22	23	Mr Bass Man - Johnny Cymbal					23	20	24	24	27	2620
26	24	So It Will Always Be - The Everly Brothers					26	24	27	26	28	1640
18	25	Please Please Me - The Beatles					24		23	28	22	1620
21	26	Hey Paula - Paul and Paula					25	29	25	25	24	1610
25	27	Cupboard Love - John Leyton					27		26	23	25	1330
NEW	28	Count On Me - Julie Grant					28=	28	29	30	26	800
NEW	29	Casablanca - Kenny Ball						25				600
NEW	30	He's So Fine - The Chiffons						27		27		600
B		Code Of Love - Mike Sarne					28=		28	29	30	580
X		Can You Forgive Me - Karl Denver					30	26				500
27		Tell Him - Billie Davis							30		29	210
30		Our Day Will Come - Ruby and The Romantics						30				100
28		The Night Has A Thousand Eyes - Bobby Vee
29		One Broken Heart For Sale - Elvis Presley

[MrTibbs]

The Beatles bandwagon gains more momentum as From Me To You storms in at #15.

George Harrison, err sorry, The Chiffons are new at #30

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

The Beatles bandwagon gains more momentum as From Me To You storms in at #15.

George Harrison, err sorry, The Chiffons are new at #30

It's amazing how Brian Epstein is cranking out these Beatles records before the previous record has had a chance to fall off the charts. I wonder if that could have hurt sales of the older record, hmmm...

Regarding George and The Chiffons, for those who don't know George has said he did NOT copy "He's So Fine" for "My Sweet Lord", rather he was copying "Oh Happy Day" by the Edwin Hawkins Singers. All 3 records very similar...

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 27th 1963

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 27th 1963								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	100	150	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	How Do You Do It - Gerry and The Pacemakers					1	2	1	1	1	9800
15	2	From Me To You - The Beatles					2	1	3	2	3	9490
2	3	From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller					3	3	2	3	2	9420
6	4	Say I Won't Be There - The Springfields					4	5	4	4	5	8780
13	5	Nobody's Darlin' But Mine - Frank Ifield					5	4	8	5	6	8200
3	6	Brown Eyed Handsome Man - Buddy Holly					7	6	6	6	10	8130
7	7	The Folk Singer - Tommy Roe					6	7	7	9	4	7910
5	8	Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades					8	11	5	8	7	7770
16	9	Can't Get Used To Losing You - Andy Williams					9	7	10	7	11	7350
4	10	Foot Tapper - The Shadows					11	10	9	10	9	7110
10	11	In Dreams - Roy Orbison					10	7	11	11	8	7090
11	12	Walk Like A Man - The Four Seasons					12	12	12	12	12	6270
8	13	Say Wonderful Things - Ronnie Carroll					13=	14	13	13	14	5810
9	14	Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard					13=	13	14	14	13	5740
20	15	Losing You - Brenda Lee					15	15	16	15	16	5100
12	16	Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury					17	18	15	18	17	4770
14	17	Charmaine - The Bachelors					16	19	17	16	15	4530
17	18	Let's Turkey Trot / Old Smokey Locomotion - Little Eva					18	20	18	17	19	4110
21	19	The End Of The World - Skeeter Davis					19	21	21	20	18	3440
18	20	Robot - The Tornados					20	23	19	21	21	3400
30	21	He's So Fine - The Chiffons					21	17	23	22	22	3320
19	22	Island Of Dreams - The Springfields					22		20	23	20	2380
23	23	Mr Bass Man - Johnny Cymbal					24=	26	22	26	25	2280
28	24	Count On Me - Julie Grant					24=	24	24	27	24	2160
NEW	25	Scarlett O'Hara - Jet Harris And Tony Meehan					23	16		19		2100
24	26	So It Will Always Be - The Everly Brothers					26	27	25	25	23	1840
NEW	27	Two Kinds Of Teardrops - Del Shannon					27	22		24		1250
22	28	That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown					28		26		26	900
NEW	29	Code Of Love - Mike Sarne					29		27	29	29	760
29	30	Casablanca - Kenny Ball					30	24				700
25		Please Please Me - The Beatles							28		30	480
27		Cupboard Love - John Leyton							29		27	420
X		Can You Forgive Me - Karl Denver						28				300
26		Hey Paula - Paul and Paula							30		28	240
B		Deck Of Cards - Wink Martindale						29				200
		Our Day Will Come - Ruby and The Romantics								28		150
X		It's My Way Of Loving You - Miki and Griff						30				100
X		Some Other Guy - The Big Three								30		50

[MrTibbs]

The Beatles don't waste any time and take a jump from 15 to 2.

One of my favourite records from 1963 debuts at 25, Jet Harris and Tony Meehan with Scarlett O'Hara. Where are records of this calibre now. Gone I fear.

[Splodj]

Lennon & McCartney were dismissive of 'Thank You Girl', the B-side, but it was often played by John Peel on his hippy Perfumed Garden radio show in 1967. Also it was chosen as the 4th track on their second EP 'Beatles Hits', although I suppose they only had the choice of 3 B-sides.

[brian05]

From the sleeve notes on Beatles - Past Masters by Kevin Howlett.

"Please please me was released on 11th January 1963. The single topped all but one of the UK charts, including the BBC's list used for its Pick of the Pops programme. For British fans, if DJ Alan Freeman announced that it was a number one, then a genuine number one it was."

So tell that to the OCC.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Thanks for that brian05. Which version of Past Masters was that, LP, CD, original, reissue, box set, all of the above? This is more fuel to the fire that EMI has changed their stance on Please Please Me in later years. After originally claiming PPM was #1 on the PPM album and several EPs (1963), they later denied it with The Beatles 20 Greatest Hits LP (1982) and the '1' CD (2000). And have now flipped back. Supposedly the Live at the BBC CD Vol 2 now reclaims PPM as #1 as well. Glad to see EMI has come back around. Of course, they now need to fix and reissue the '1' CD to make this right !!

[Woz1234]

Thanks for that brian05. Which version of Past Masters was that, LP, CD, original, reissue, box set, all of the above? This is more fuel to the fire that EMI has changed their stance on Please Please Me in later years. After originally claiming PPM was #1 on the PPM album and several EPs (1963), they later denied it with The Beatles 20 Greatest Hits LP (1982) and the '1' CD (2000). And have now flipped back. Supposedly the Live at the BBC CD Vol 2 now reclaims PPM as #1 as well. Glad to see EMI has come back around. Of course, they now need to fix and reissue the '1' CD to make this right !!

Past Masters by Kevin Howlett quote is from 2009 CD Re-Issue The Beatles – Past Masters (2009, CD) - Discogs

On 1988 CD which I've have, says on "From Me To You",

There is still some doubt whether "Please Please Me" was a number one single in the British charts, since it was so in three of the four published weekly rankings but only made the runners-up spot in the now widely quoted fourth. (There was no one accepted 'record industry chart' then).