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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    My apologies for the delay in mentioning it, but in the 14th December chart, Heinz is actually a re-entry, as it was at 27 on the 30th November chart..
    Oops ! thanks for that heads up brain, I have amended the December 14th chart to reflect this

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  • braindeadpj
    replied
    My apologies for the delay in mentioning it, but in the 14th December chart, Heinz is actually a re-entry, as it was at 27 on the 30th November chart..

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    In which case if they are for fun, you need to start them on a new thread, or In my opinion you will downgrade your original charts. Or do you see them as a joke too?

  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Woz1234 View Post
    Are we not doing the fifties [1958 & 1959] charts anymore?
    Most definitely Woz. Above chart is just until March 1971 when it is generally accepted the BMRB chart after the postal strike generally became more established and accepted. So yeah 56 to 59 will be following like I always promised.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Robbie, I'm using 250 for MM, 200 FOR NME, and initially 85 for RR in these early months. This is consistent with the probable store returns at the time to the best of our knowledge.
    Also, these proportions allow RR to offset either MM or NME dominating thus creating a balance like I mentioned above allowing the two closest charts to align.

    RR will increase incrementally towards the eventual target number of diary returns which did not happen until Spring 1971 in line with what you said. I know Robin thinks along the same lines with gradual increase for RR.

    1969 is already compiled and I'm deep into 1970. The charts do make for interesting reading and I know how you guys, like me, love charts. These 'FUN' charts are to be enjoyed and give an insight into how the BBCchart might have looked had they continued to average MM, NME, and the new BMRB chart.

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  • Woz1234
    replied
    Are we not doing the fifties [1958 & 1959] charts anymore?
    Last edited by Woz1234; Thu May 27, 2021, 23:00.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    ^
    As Mr Tibbs has posted, the 1969-1971 averaged chart is being compiled for a bit of fun. The idea is to compile an overall chart which helps compensate for the weaknesses of those early BMRB charts which were hit by what seems to be general indifference by retailers who for whatever reason couldn't return the diaries, eother on time or at all.

    I don't know what Mr Tibbs has weighted the BMRB chart as being in the early days of the chart but to give it a full weight of 300 (or 250 which was the amount of shops that were supposed to be used in any one week, presumably the diaries from the other 50 would then be discarded) from the start would make the exercise (of compiling a 1969-1971 chart) futile as the BMRB chart would always dominate unless the NME and MM charts both fully agreed with each other.

    I did post earlier in the thread, and by now probably two dozen pages or more back, what I thought the progression of weighting should be like but I can't remember (and find) what I posted.

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    Have to say Mr Tibbs this is a bad idea and BMRB figures are NOT accurate at all. There was no building up. I suspect that if they had done that they would have been in breach of contract with the organisations that commissioned them to do the chart. In 1969 Record Retailer was saying that 300 shops were involved. So your chart by 1971 would be very inaccurate indeed, by which time (postal problems aside) they would be getting at least 250 returns out of the 300. Plus as I have said before the other charts most of the time do not list the exact numbers of shops taking part. You just go on what they were SUPPOSED to get. In that case your chart should be based on 300 from Record Retailer. Unless you have written information that 300 shops were not contacted, you should do this chart based on 300.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    So, we have gone full circle and you now have all The Ultimate Averaged Charts from January 1960 to February 8th 1969.

    .. and now the fun begins, totally uncharted territory, an averaged chart in a time zone where none has previously existed. From 15th February you could either follow the MM chart, or the NME chart, or even the brand new BMRB chart, but time stopped for the BBC averaged chart. So what would those months and years look like if an average was still taken from these three charts. The result is interesting, the store sampling numbers used allow the two closest charts to prevail over a third outlier, sometimes it's NME and MM, sometimes, NME and RR, and sometimes MM and RR. Sometimes even all three agree.

    As previously discussed RR store sample figures will increase incrementally every 5 months building towards an eventual store sample of 200 by March 1971 as the BMRB chart gradually built a more reliable database for chart compilation on an ongoing basis.

    So tomorrow a new chart for you, a new Ultimate Averaged Chart, smoothing out positions between the three existing charts to find a happy medium. A new 'fun' chart. You will also continue to see the other three charts side by side for the first time for these years for easy comparison.

    So tomorrow we launch with February 15th 1969. Enjoy.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Well here it is the last chart for 1963.
    I have also gone back and entered the 'Last Week' figures for 4th January 1964 to tie in with this.

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 28th 1963

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 28th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 5400
    3 2 Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five 3 2 3 6 5050
    2 3 She Loves You - The Beatles 2 4 2 2 5020
    7 4 Dominique - The Singing Nun 5 3 5 7 4820
    5 5 Secret Love - Kathy Kirby 4 5 8 4 4560
    4 6 You Were Made For Me - Freddie and The Dreamers 7 8 4 3 4490
    6 7 I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield 6 6 7 5 4480
    10 8 Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney 8 7 10 9 4110
    8 9 Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras 10 10 6 10 3980
    9 10 Don't Talk To Him - Cliff Richard 9 11 9 8 3790
    16 11 Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin 11 9 14 15 3530
    11 12 Geronimo - The Shadows 12 14 11 11 3300
    13 13 Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles 13 13 13 3240
    15 14 I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones 14 12 21 14 2910
    24 15 Kiss Me Quick - Elvis Presley 17 17 12 16 2800
    12 16 You'll Never Walk Alone - Gerry and The Pacemakers 16 19 15 12 2570
    18 17 The Beatles Hits (EP) - The Beatles 21 20 16 2240
    14 18 I'll Keep You Satisfied - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas 18 22 18 13 2090
    20 19 All I Want For Christmas Is A Beatle - Dora Bryan 19 16 26 20 2080
    21 20 Not Too Little Not Too Much - Chris Sandford 20 21 20 18 1940
    NEW 21 Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans 22 18 25 23 1840
    17 22 It's Almost Tomorrow - Mark Wynter 24 24 19 22 1570
    29 23 We Are In Love - Adam Faith 26 23 24 27 1270
    22 24 Stay - The Hollies 23 25 27 17 1220
    27 25 If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe 25 27 22 21 1150
    NEW 26 Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury 30 26 500
    23 27 I (Who Have Nothing) - Shirley Bassey 28 29 29 25 480
    NEW 28 Do You Hear What I Hear - Bing Crosby 23 400
    19 29 Money - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen 27 19 360
    RE 30 Country Boy - Heinz 30 28 28 340
    * MM did not compile a chart this week. The BBC only used NME and RR this week although Disc also compiled a chart.
    With The Beatles (LP) - The Beatles 15 15 17 2300
    B At The Palace - Wilfred Brambell and Harry H. Corbett 28 300
    25 Hungry For Love - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates 29 24 210
    28 Blue Bayou / Mean Woman Blues - Roy Orbison 26 150
    B What To Do - Buddy Holly 29 60
    30 Deep Purple - Nino Tempo and April Stevens 30 50
    Sugar And Spice - The Searchers 30 30
    26 The Beatles No 1 (EP) - The Beatles

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Thanks for all the likes on the charts , brain, it really is much appreciated

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    I Can Dance - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes

    They will fail to follow up their previous no. 1 hit. Wonder how the man at Decca who failed to sign The Beatles felt. Must have kicked himself.
    Yep, but did Decca have a George Martin figure to musically mold and shape The Beatles as he did? The outcome may not have been the same...

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    I Can Dance - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes

    They will fail to follow up their previous no. 1 hit. Wonder how the man at Decca who failed to sign The Beatles felt. Must have kicked himself.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 21st 1963

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 21st 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    2 2 She Loves You - The Beatles 2 2 2 2 2 9570
    5 3 Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five 3 2 3 4 4 9260
    3 4 You Were Made For Me - Freddie and The Dreamers 4 4 4 3 3 8990
    4 5 Secret Love - Kathy Kirby 5 4 5 5 5 8680
    8 6 I Only Want To be With You - Dusty Springfield 6 6 7 6 6 8100
    9 7 Dominique - The Singing Nun 7 7 6 9 8 7940
    7 8 Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras 8 10 8 8 7 7420
    6 9 Don't Talk To Him - Cliff Richard 9 9 9 7 10 7330
    14 10 Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney 10 8 10 10 9 7160
    13 11 Geronimo - The Shadows 11 11 12 11 11 6450
    11 12 You'll Never Walk Alone - Gerry and The Pacemakers 13 16 11 14 12 5920
    12 13 Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles 12 14 13 12 5890
    10 14 I'll Keep You Satisfied - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas 14 12 14 13 16 5800
    17 15 I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones 15 15 15 18 13 5190
    26 16 Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin 16= 13 18 23 15 4630
    15 17 It's Almost Tomorrow - Mark Wynter 19 19 16 17 20 4480
    16 18 The Beatles Hits (EP) - The Beatles 18 20 17 16 4352
    18 19 Money - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen 20 21 19 20 14 3860
    21 20 All I Want For Christmas Is A Beatle - Dora Bryan 21= 18 20 22 21 3700
    29 21 Not Too Little Not Too Much - Chris Sandford 21= 23 22 19 17 3170
    22 22 Stay - The Hollies 23 22 21 24 19 3110
    20 23 I (Who Have Nothing) - Shirley Bassey 24 29 23 25 22 1970
    NEW 24 Kiss Me Quick - Elvis Presley 25 25 21 25 1280
    25 25 Hungry For Love - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates 27= 24 24 1260
    28 26 The Beatles No 1 (EP) - The Beatles 29 25 26 1150
    NEW 27 If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe 26 27 28 18 1140
    27 28 Blue Bayou / Mean Woman Blues - Roy Orbison 27= 26 23 990
    NEW 29 We Are In Love - Adam Faith 30 24 27 900
    23 30 Deep Purple - Nino Tempo and April Stevens 27 30 30 600
    With The Beatles (LP) - The Beatles 16= 17 15 2200
    24 Sugar And Spice - The Searchers 28 28 540
    X I Can Dance - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 26 500
    B Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans 29 27 420
    30 Country Boy - Heinz 30 29 26 350
    B At The Palace - Wilfred Brambell and Harry H. Corbett 28 300
    19 Be My Baby - The Ronettes 29 60
    Blowing In The Wind - Peter Paul and Mary 30 30

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    From the sublime to the ridiculous ! The Beatles with two singles and three EP's on the chart, to, Dora Bryan's utterly cringeworthy cash in debuting this week.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 14th 1963

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 14th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    2 2 She Loves You - The Beatles 2 2 2 2 2 9570
    3 3 You Were Made For Me - Freddie and The Dreamers 3 4 3 3 3 9140
    5 4 Secret Love - Kathy Kirby 4 3 4 5 4 8960
    9 5 Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five 6 5 5 6 9 8410
    4 6 Don't Talk To Him - Cliff Richard 5 6 7 4 6 8200
    8 7 Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras 7 8 6 7 5 8030
    10 8 I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield 8 7 8 8 7 7720
    15 9 Dominique - The Singing Nun 9 9 9 11 10 7130
    6 10 I'll Keep You Satisfied - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas 10 11 11 9 11 6700
    7 11 You'll Never Walk Alone - Gerry and The Pacemakers 11 15 10 10 8 6490
    13 12 Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles 12 12 12 12 6270
    28 13 Geronimo - The Shadows 14 12 15 16 13 5590
    26 14 Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney 16 10 16 15 20 5480
    12 15 It's Almost Tomorrow - Mark Wynter 15 17 13 14 14 5460
    17 16 The Beatles Hits (EP) - The Beatles 17 17 14 17 5100
    20 17 I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones 18 20 17 18 15 4330
    19 18 Money - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen 19 22 18 20 19 3760
    11 19 Be My Baby - The Ronettes 21 26 21 19 21 2900
    16 20 I (Who Have Nothing) - Shirley Bassey 20 19 21 12 2870
    NEW 21 All I Want For Christmas Is A Beatle - Dora Bryan 23 19 26 22 24 2610
    27 22 Stay - The Hollies 22 25 24 24 17 2420
    21 23 Deep Purple - Nino Tempo and April Stevens 24 23 25 26 18 2340
    14 24 Sugar And Spice - The Searchers 28= 20 28 25 1980
    23 25 Hungry For Love - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates 25 24 27 23 23 1940
    NEW 26 Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin 26= 16 25 27 1920
    18 27 Blue Bayou / Mean Woman Blues - Roy Orbison 26= 22 30 16 1850
    22 28 The Beatles No 1 (EP) - The Beatles 30 29 23 29 1620
    NEW 29 Not Too Little Not Too Much - Chris Sandford 27 28 27 30 1080
    RE 30 Country Boy - Heinz 21 1000
    With The Beatles (LP) - The Beatles 13 14 13 2600
    B If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe 28= 30 22 420
    25 Blowing In The Wind - Peter Paul and Mary 29 28 390
    B We Are In Love - Adam Faith 28 300
    29 From Russia With Love - Matt Monro 30 26 250
    If I Had A Hammer - Trini Lopez 29 60
    24 Memphis Tennessee / Let It Rock - Chuck Berry
    30 Fools Ruch In - Rick Nelson

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Thursday 28th November 1963

    NB In The Stage, published on this day Howard Thomas of the ITV north and midlands weekend franchise claimed "ABC can afford to spend 3000 an hour on adult educational programmes because Thank Your Lucky Stars and The Avengers both reach 6,000,000 homes in Britain, and Armchair Theatre reaches 6,500,000. Yes, the Beatles help pay for the egg-heads!"

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    The usual album of the time had 5 or 6 times the number of tracks of singles meaning there’s no compatibility at all between the two.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    I agree with Mr Tibbs on the subject of excluding albums. In any case it was simply that a few shops taking part in each survey were adding in the album, presumably the albums were number one in the returns sent back, sufficient to put it in the various charts. The vast majority of the shops in the survey didn't put the album sales in their returns, seeing it was suppose to be a singles survey. Had all of them done any such albums might well have topped the singles charts. Looking at the sales reports that we see from time to time, some albums could easily outsell singles.
    I think I have said this before, that either NME were too idle to edit the albums out, or they thought that to alter the results of those supplying the chart was the wrong thing to do. Which could have lead to either allegations of editorial interfering in the charts or key shops saying that there returns were being doctored, causing the NME problems.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I would imagine that, as it was 50/50, the BBC were in two minds about whether to include albums. I think they made the wrong call.

    I wonder what swung it the other way. Perhaps they thought that 'With the Beatles' was the beginning of a new trend that would see many albums sell as well as singles.

    And of course they would be unaware that Disc would drop the practice in 1966 leaving only NME.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    Fair enough, but LPs were included in the BBC chart.
    It doesn't do justice to the albums either Brian. They get lost in the lower end of the chart and lose their impact as you can see from NME, Disc, and the BBC . 'With The Beatles' has more impact seen on top of the album chart where it justifiably belongs.

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  • brian05
    replied
    Fair enough, but LPs were included in the BBC chart.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    What rule prevents With The Beatles (LP) charting on the UAC?
    You will notice Brian that I had always excluded albums from The Ultimate Chart just on the basis it is a singles chart and only NME and Disc charted albums on their singles chart whereas MM and RR did not. Therefore taking an average from just 2 charts would be unreliable.
    The album chart itself better represented albums.

    EP's were included as they were the same 7 inch format but were also included by MM thus leaving RR as the only chart not to include these. It was therefore possible to use 3 charts to take an average from which could be counted as being more reliable.

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  • brian05
    replied
    What rule prevents With The Beatles (LP) charting on the UAC?

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  • brian05
    replied
    From NME on 29th November 1963.



    It should have been no. 1 in RR.

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