The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[MrTibbs]

My apologies for the delay in mentioning it, but in the 14th December chart, Heinz is actually a re-entry, as it was at 27 on the 30th November chart..

Oops ! thanks for that heads up brain, I have amended the December 14th chart to reflect this

[braindeadpj]

My apologies for the delay in mentioning it, but in the 14th December chart, Heinz is actually a re-entry, as it was at 27 on the 30th November chart..

[Graham76man]

In which case if they are for fun, you need to start them on a new thread, or In my opinion you will downgrade your original charts. Or do you see them as a joke too?

[MrTibbs]

Are we not doing the fifties [1958 & 1959] charts anymore?

Most definitely Woz. Above chart is just until March 1971 when it is generally accepted the BMRB chart after the postal strike generally became more established and accepted. So yeah 56 to 59 will be following like I always promised.

[MrTibbs]

Robbie, I'm using 250 for MM, 200 FOR NME, and initially 85 for RR in these early months. This is consistent with the probable store returns at the time to the best of our knowledge.
Also, these proportions allow RR to offset either MM or NME dominating thus creating a balance like I mentioned above allowing the two closest charts to align.

RR will increase incrementally towards the eventual target number of diary returns which did not happen until Spring 1971 in line with what you said. I know Robin thinks along the same lines with gradual increase for RR.

1969 is already compiled and I'm deep into 1970. The charts do make for interesting reading and I know how you guys, like me, love charts. These 'FUN' charts are to be enjoyed and give an insight into how the BBCchart might have looked had they continued to average MM, NME, and the new BMRB chart.

[Woz1234]

Are we not doing the fifties [1958 & 1959] charts anymore?

[Robbie]

^
As Mr Tibbs has posted, the 1969-1971 averaged chart is being compiled for a bit of fun. The idea is to compile an overall chart which helps compensate for the weaknesses of those early BMRB charts which were hit by what seems to be general indifference by retailers who for whatever reason couldn't return the diaries, eother on time or at all.

I don't know what Mr Tibbs has weighted the BMRB chart as being in the early days of the chart but to give it a full weight of 300 (or 250 which was the amount of shops that were supposed to be used in any one week, presumably the diaries from the other 50 would then be discarded) from the start would make the exercise (of compiling a 1969-1971 chart) futile as the BMRB chart would always dominate unless the NME and MM charts both fully agreed with each other.

I did post earlier in the thread, and by now probably two dozen pages or more back, what I thought the progression of weighting should be like but I can't remember (and find) what I posted.

[Graham76man]

Have to say Mr Tibbs this is a bad idea and BMRB figures are NOT accurate at all. There was no building up. I suspect that if they had done that they would have been in breach of contract with the organisations that commissioned them to do the chart. In 1969 Record Retailer was saying that 300 shops were involved. So your chart by 1971 would be very inaccurate indeed, by which time (postal problems aside) they would be getting at least 250 returns out of the 300. Plus as I have said before the other charts most of the time do not list the exact numbers of shops taking part. You just go on what they were SUPPOSED to get. In that case your chart should be based on 300 from Record Retailer. Unless you have written information that 300 shops were not contacted, you should do this chart based on 300.

[MrTibbs]

So, we have gone full circle and you now have all The Ultimate Averaged Charts from January 1960 to February 8th 1969.

.. and now the fun begins, totally uncharted territory, an averaged chart in a time zone where none has previously existed. From 15th February you could either follow the MM chart, or the NME chart, or even the brand new BMRB chart, but time stopped for the BBC averaged chart. So what would those months and years look like if an average was still taken from these three charts. The result is interesting, the store sampling numbers used allow the two closest charts to prevail over a third outlier, sometimes it's NME and MM, sometimes, NME and RR, and sometimes MM and RR. Sometimes even all three agree.

As previously discussed RR store sample figures will increase incrementally every 5 months building towards an eventual store sample of 200 by March 1971 as the BMRB chart gradually built a more reliable database for chart compilation on an ongoing basis.

So tomorrow a new chart for you, a new Ultimate Averaged Chart, smoothing out positions between the three existing charts to find a happy medium. A new 'fun' chart. You will also continue to see the other three charts side by side for the first time for these years for easy comparison.

So tomorrow we launch with February 15th 1969. Enjoy.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Well here it is the last chart for 1963.
I have also gone back and entered the 'Last Week' figures for 4th January 1964 to tie in with this.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 28th 1963

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 28th 1963								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	100	150	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles					1	1		1	1	5400
3	2	Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five					3	2		3	6	5050
2	3	She Loves You - The Beatles					2	4		2	2	5020
7	4	Dominique - The Singing Nun					5	3		5	7	4820
5	5	Secret Love - Kathy Kirby					4	5		8	4	4560
4	6	You Were Made For Me - Freddie and The Dreamers					7	8		4	3	4490
6	7	I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield					6	6		7	5	4480
10	8	Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney					8	7		10	9	4110
8	9	Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras					10	10		6	10	3980
9	10	Don't Talk To Him - Cliff Richard					9	11		9	8	3790
16	11	Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin					11	9		14	15	3530
11	12	Geronimo - The Shadows					12	14		11	11	3300
13	13	Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles					13	13		13		3240
15	14	I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones					14	12		21	14	2910
24	15	Kiss Me Quick - Elvis Presley					17	17		12	16	2800
12	16	You'll Never Walk Alone - Gerry and The Pacemakers					16	19		15	12	2570
18	17	The Beatles Hits (EP) - The Beatles					21	20		16		2240
14	18	I'll Keep You Satisfied - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas					18	22		18	13	2090
20	19	All I Want For Christmas Is A Beatle - Dora Bryan					19	16		26	20	2080
21	20	Not Too Little Not Too Much - Chris Sandford					20	21		20	18	1940
NEW	21	Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans					22	18		25	23	1840
17	22	It's Almost Tomorrow - Mark Wynter					24	24		19	22	1570
29	23	We Are In Love - Adam Faith					26	23		24	27	1270
22	24	Stay - The Hollies					23	25		27	17	1220
27	25	If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe					25	27		22	21	1150
NEW	26	Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury					30	26				500
23	27	I (Who Have Nothing) - Shirley Bassey					28	29		29	25	480
NEW	28	Do You Hear What I Hear - Bing Crosby								23		400
19	29	Money - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen					27				19	360
RE	30	Country Boy - Heinz						30		28	28	340
		* MM did not compile a chart this week. The BBC only used NME and RR this week although Disc also compiled a chart.
		With The Beatles (LP) - The Beatles					15	15		17		2300
B		At The Palace - Wilfred Brambell and Harry H. Corbett						28				300
25		Hungry For Love - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates					29				24	210
28		Blue Bayou / Mean Woman Blues - Roy Orbison									26	150
B		What To Do - Buddy Holly									29	60
30		Deep Purple - Nino Tempo and April Stevens								30		50
		Sugar And Spice - The Searchers									30	30
26		The Beatles No 1 (EP) - The Beatles

[MrTibbs]

Thanks for all the likes on the charts , brain, it really is much appreciated

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

I Can Dance - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes

They will fail to follow up their previous no. 1 hit. Wonder how the man at Decca who failed to sign The Beatles felt. Must have kicked himself.

Yep, but did Decca have a George Martin figure to musically mold and shape The Beatles as he did? The outcome may not have been the same...

[brian05]

I Can Dance - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes

They will fail to follow up their previous no. 1 hit. Wonder how the man at Decca who failed to sign The Beatles felt. Must have kicked himself.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 21st 1963

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 21st 1963								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	100	150	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles					1	1	1	1	1	9900
2	2	She Loves You - The Beatles					2	2	2	2	2	9570
5	3	Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five					3	2	3	4	4	9260
3	4	You Were Made For Me - Freddie and The Dreamers					4	4	4	3	3	8990
4	5	Secret Love - Kathy Kirby					5	4	5	5	5	8680
8	6	I Only Want To be With You - Dusty Springfield					6	6	7	6	6	8100
9	7	Dominique - The Singing Nun					7	7	6	9	8	7940
7	8	Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras					8	10	8	8	7	7420
6	9	Don't Talk To Him - Cliff Richard					9	9	9	7	10	7330
14	10	Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney					10	8	10	10	9	7160
13	11	Geronimo - The Shadows					11	11	12	11	11	6450
11	12	You'll Never Walk Alone - Gerry and The Pacemakers					13	16	11	14	12	5920
12	13	Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles					12	14	13	12		5890
10	14	I'll Keep You Satisfied - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas					14	12	14	13	16	5800
17	15	I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones					15	15	15	18	13	5190
26	16	Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin					16=	13	18	23	15	4630
15	17	It's Almost Tomorrow - Mark Wynter					19	19	16	17	20	4480
16	18	The Beatles Hits (EP) - The Beatles					18	20	17	16		4352
18	19	Money - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen					20	21	19	20	14	3860
21	20	All I Want For Christmas Is A Beatle - Dora Bryan					21=	18	20	22	21	3700
29	21	Not Too Little Not Too Much - Chris Sandford					21=	23	22	19	17	3170
22	22	Stay - The Hollies					23	22	21	24	19	3110
20	23	I (Who Have Nothing) - Shirley Bassey					24	29	23	25	22	1970
NEW	24	Kiss Me Quick - Elvis Presley					25	25		21	25	1280
25	25	Hungry For Love - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates					27=		24		24	1260
28	26	The Beatles No 1 (EP) - The Beatles					29		25	26		1150
NEW	27	If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe					26		27	28	18	1140
27	28	Blue Bayou / Mean Woman Blues - Roy Orbison					27=		26		23	990
NEW	29	We Are In Love - Adam Faith					30	24		27		900
23	30	Deep Purple - Nino Tempo and April Stevens						27	30	30		600
		With The Beatles (LP) - The Beatles					16=	17		15		2200
24		Sugar And Spice - The Searchers							28		28	540
X		I Can Dance - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes						26				500
B		Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans							29		27	420
30		Country Boy - Heinz						30		29	26	350
B		At The Palace - Wilfred Brambell and Harry H. Corbett						28				300
19		Be My Baby - The Ronettes									29	60
		Blowing In The Wind - Peter Paul and Mary									30	30

[MrTibbs]

From the sublime to the ridiculous ! The Beatles with two singles and three EP's on the chart, to, Dora Bryan's utterly cringeworthy cash in debuting this week.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 14th 1963

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 14th 1963								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	100	150	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles					1	1	1	1	1	9900
2	2	She Loves You - The Beatles					2	2	2	2	2	9570
3	3	You Were Made For Me - Freddie and The Dreamers					3	4	3	3	3	9140
5	4	Secret Love - Kathy Kirby					4	3	4	5	4	8960
9	5	Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five					6	5	5	6	9	8410
4	6	Don't Talk To Him - Cliff Richard					5	6	7	4	6	8200
8	7	Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras					7	8	6	7	5	8030
10	8	I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield					8	7	8	8	7	7720
15	9	Dominique - The Singing Nun					9	9	9	11	10	7130
6	10	I'll Keep You Satisfied - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas					10	11	11	9	11	6700
7	11	You'll Never Walk Alone - Gerry and The Pacemakers					11	15	10	10	8	6490
13	12	Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles					12	12	12	12		6270
28	13	Geronimo - The Shadows					14	12	15	16	13	5590
26	14	Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney					16	10	16	15	20	5480
12	15	It's Almost Tomorrow - Mark Wynter					15	17	13	14	14	5460
17	16	The Beatles Hits (EP) - The Beatles					17	17	14	17		5100
20	17	I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones					18	20	17	18	15	4330
19	18	Money - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen					19	22	18	20	19	3760
11	19	Be My Baby - The Ronettes					21	26	21	19	21	2900
16	20	I (Who Have Nothing) - Shirley Bassey					20		19	21	12	2870
NEW	21	All I Want For Christmas Is A Beatle - Dora Bryan					23	19	26	22	24	2610
27	22	Stay - The Hollies					22	25	24	24	17	2420
21	23	Deep Purple - Nino Tempo and April Stevens					24	23	25	26	18	2340
14	24	Sugar And Spice - The Searchers					28=		20	28	25	1980
23	25	Hungry For Love - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates					25	24	27	23	23	1940
NEW	26	Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin					26=	16		25	27	1920
18	27	Blue Bayou / Mean Woman Blues - Roy Orbison					26=		22	30	16	1850
22	28	The Beatles No 1 (EP) - The Beatles					30	29	23	29		1620
NEW	29	Not Too Little Not Too Much - Chris Sandford						27	28	27	30	1080
RE	30	Country Boy - Heinz						21				1000
		With The Beatles (LP) - The Beatles					13	14		13		2600
B		If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe					28=		30		22	420
25		Blowing In The Wind - Peter Paul and Mary							29		28	390
B		We Are In Love - Adam Faith						28				300
29		From Russia With Love - Matt Monro						30			26	250
		If I Had A Hammer - Trini Lopez									29	60
24		Memphis Tennessee / Let It Rock - Chuck Berry
30		Fools Ruch In - Rick Nelson

[Graham76man]

Thursday 28th November 1963

NB In The Stage, published on this day Howard Thomas of the ITV north and midlands weekend franchise claimed "ABC can afford to spend £3000 an hour on adult educational programmes because Thank Your Lucky Stars and The Avengers both reach 6,000,000 homes in Britain, and Armchair Theatre reaches 6,500,000. Yes, the Beatles help pay for the egg-heads!"

[kjell]

The usual album of the time had 5 or 6 times the number of tracks of singles meaning there’s no compatibility at all between the two.

[Graham76man]

I agree with Mr Tibbs on the subject of excluding albums. In any case it was simply that a few shops taking part in each survey were adding in the album, presumably the albums were number one in the returns sent back, sufficient to put it in the various charts. The vast majority of the shops in the survey didn't put the album sales in their returns, seeing it was suppose to be a singles survey. Had all of them done any such albums might well have topped the singles charts. Looking at the sales reports that we see from time to time, some albums could easily outsell singles.
I think I have said this before, that either NME were too idle to edit the albums out, or they thought that to alter the results of those supplying the chart was the wrong thing to do. Which could have lead to either allegations of editorial interfering in the charts or key shops saying that there returns were being doctored, causing the NME problems.

[Splodj]

I would imagine that, as it was 50/50, the BBC were in two minds about whether to include albums. I think they made the wrong call.

I wonder what swung it the other way. Perhaps they thought that 'With the Beatles' was the beginning of a new trend that would see many albums sell as well as singles.

And of course they would be unaware that Disc would drop the practice in 1966 leaving only NME.

[MrTibbs]

Fair enough, but LPs were included in the BBC chart.

It doesn't do justice to the albums either Brian. They get lost in the lower end of the chart and lose their impact as you can see from NME, Disc, and the BBC . 'With The Beatles' has more impact seen on top of the album chart where it justifiably belongs.

[brian05]

Fair enough, but LPs were included in the BBC chart.

[MrTibbs]

What rule prevents With The Beatles (LP) charting on the UAC?

You will notice Brian that I had always excluded albums from The Ultimate Chart just on the basis it is a singles chart and only NME and Disc charted albums on their singles chart whereas MM and RR did not. Therefore taking an average from just 2 charts would be unreliable.
The album chart itself better represented albums.

EP's were included as they were the same 7 inch format but were also included by MM thus leaving RR as the only chart not to include these. It was therefore possible to use 3 charts to take an average from which could be counted as being more reliable.

[brian05]

What rule prevents With The Beatles (LP) charting on the UAC?

[brian05]

From NME on 29th November 1963.



It should have been no. 1 in RR.