The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[Germanicus]

You are right Germanicus RR does not have EP'S in their chart. What has happened here is I have taken an average from the other charts and a2arded it to RR to compile the chart. Normally after I have done that I remove this average from the spreadsheet to prevent confusion but obviously I for got to do that for this week. I will correct that. Thanks for picking up on that oversight.

Brian

My Respects to you Mr Tibbs

Your post in relation to The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined was very detailed and concise.

I enjoyed following your narrative, as well as reading others discussing this topic ie; The Ultimate Averaged......
I appreciate your response and happy to assist.

Most respectfully

Germanicus

[Splodj]

Pop Weekly did not do any RR-compensating calculations for EPs, and their significantly lower EP positions are a dead giveaway that their charts are not based on store returns.

[MrTibbs]

You are right Germanicus RR does not have EP'S in their chart. What has happened here is I have taken an average from the other charts and a2arded it to RR to compile the chart. Normally after I have done that I remove this average from the spreadsheet to prevent confusion but obviously I for got to do that for this week. I will correct that. Thanks for picking up on that oversight.

Brian

[Germanicus]

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 4th 1964							BBC	NME	RM	MM	Disc	RR
Last	This						Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart
Week	Week	Title and Artist						Total Chart Positions				30
1	1	I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles					1	1		1	1	1
2	2	Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five					2	2		2	2	2
3	3	She Loves You - The Beatles					3	3		3	3	3
4	4	Dominique - The Singing Nun					6=	5		4	7	7
7	5	I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield					5	4		7	5	6
6	6	You Were Made For Me - Freddie and The Dreamers					4	8		5	4	4
8	7	Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney					6=	6		6	6	5
5	8	Secret Love - Kathy Kirby					8	7		8	8	9
11	9	Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin					9	9		9	12	11
21	10	Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans					10	9		12	10	13
9	11	Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras					11	11		11	15	8
14	12	I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones					13	12		10	16	15
10	13	Don't Talk To Him - Cliff Richard					12	12		14	11	10
12	14	Geronimo - The Shadows					15	14		13	20	12
13	15	Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles					16	17		16	13	15
16	16	You'll Never Walk Alone - Gerry and The Pacemakers					18	16		15	18	16
15	17	Kiss Me Quick - Elvis Presley					17	15		19	14	14
20	18	Chris Sandford - Not Too Little Not Too Much					19	22		18	19	18
24	19	Stay - The Hollies					21	18		21	28	17
17	20	The Beatles Hits (EP) - The Beatles					20	19		24	17	20
18	21	I'll Keep You Satisfied - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas					22	23		20	21	21
23	22	We Are In Love - Adam Faith					23	21		22	24	20
29	23	Money - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen					24	26		17		19
19	24	All I Want For Christmas Is A Beatle - Dora Bryan					25	27		23	27	24
22	25	It's Almost Tomorrow - Mark Wynter					26	24		25	25	30
26	26	Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury					28	25		29	22
25	27	If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe					27			26	26	22
27	28	I (Who Have Nothing) - Shirley Bassey					29			28		25
NEW	29	What To Do - Buddy Holly								27		28
NEW	30	At The Palace - Wilfrid Brambell and Harry H Corbett					30=	28				26
		Do You Hear What I Hear - Bing Crosby					30=				23
		Blue Bayou / Mean Woman Blues - Roy Orbison										23
		Country Boy - Heinz									29	27
		Hungry For Love - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates						30		30
		The Beatles No 1 (EP) - The Beatles						29
		From Russia With Love - Matt Monro										29
		I'm In Love - The Fourmost									30
		With The Beatles (LP) - The Beatles						20			9

Hello Mr Tibbs

In your post #7 The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 4th 1964

https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...0#post10418390

This is specific for the Record Retailer Column

You have the following..................................................RR

14 12 I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones........15
13 15 Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles....................15

17 20 The Beatles Hits (EP) - The Beatles...................20
23 22 We Are In Love - Adam Faith..............................20

I was not aware that Record Retailer included EP's in their Charts.

Is this an oversight or can you share the reasoning please.

The previous weeks charts does not include The Beatles EP's in The Record Retailer Charts

#2720 Fri May 28, 2021, 04:10

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 28th 1963

https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...0#post10633760

The week after Week Ending January 11th 1964 does not include The Beatles EP's in The Record Retailer Charts

#18 Wed June 17, 2020, 23:34

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 11th 1964

https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...8#post10418798

I am just curious. Not being critical as I can see this was a monumental effort. Well done.

Your assistance would be greatfully appreciated.

I enjoyed reading all your posts.

Most respectfully

Germanicus

[Splodj]

Well done Me Tibbs. There must have been a terrible moment when you thought your visit would be to no avail!

Going back to the copyright issue mentioned a few posts ago ...

If a composite chart is a breach of copyright then I don't understand how Pop Weekly was allowed to publish one for so long, albeit a week late. I assume their UK chart was compiled without permission of the contributory charts as, unlike on POTP, they were not mentioned.

[MrTibbs]

It sounds like you had a very fruitful visit to London MrTibbs. Also, it's possible that you could be the last person to be able to access some of those older volumes of Record Mirror. I'm looking forward to the thread!

Yeah Robbie the Head Archivist confirmed that to me. He advised when I had finished with the volumes concerned that they will be filed as and I quote 'Unfit For Use. In Very Poor Condition' until such as a time they can be converted to Microfilm and that is likely to be years down the line due to the amount of documents awaiting this.

[Robbie]

It sounds like you had a very fruitful visit to London MrTibbs. Also, it's possible that you could be the last person to be able to access some of those older volumes of Record Mirror. I'm looking forward to the thread!

[MrTibbs]

Morning All. Just to update you on progress with my next project.

THE RECORD MIRROR CHARTS, REVISED, RE-CALCULATED AND FULLY EXTENDED.

I have now returned from London armed with hours and hours of research into all Record Mirror's Charts from 1954 to 1961 enabling me to begin this long awaited project.
I now have every one of Record Mirror's dealer charts in my possession amounting to over 1500 part pages taken from RM. I was lucky because I had great difficulty in accessing some of the old volumes because they are no longer available for viewing by the public due to their deteriorating and very fragile condition. I had to go to great lengths to prove the purpose of my research before the British Library reluctantly agreed me access and then only under the condition of strict supervised access.

This research also allowed me to copy all RM's Album Charts too from 1956 through March 1962 when it adopted RR as its chart source.

So hopefully tomorrow, or failing that Monday I will open a new thread and give a detailed introduction and outline about the project, methodology, background etc.

I hope all of you who enjoyed the UAC will 'Like' and follow this new thread which will take Record Mirror's charts to a whole new level not seen before.

[MrTibbs]

I have a question. I have done a similar work to yourself, (although by no means as accurate), in relation to the US Charts of the 60s. In the absence of definitive data re sample sizes etc, I utilised a method similar to that employed by the BBC. Although my method for eliminating ties was much more ruthless, I still had to tolerate some tied positions. I am thinking of putting my work into book form and selling it as an ebook. This is something you should seriously consider in respect of your own magnificent effort which I have been following with great interest. If we did publish books containing our average charts, would we be in breach of copyright? Could we be subject to legal action? Have you ever considered this point? Once again your work is to be commended.

I have been asked a good few times Magician if I have plans to publish them in an ebook but not thought about it seriously yet to be honest. But who knows lol. I agree with kingofskiffle I too would like to see more of your charts in a thread and thanks too for your kind words of support for this thread.

[Magician]

I would encourage you to start a new thread with this, as it is a good idea. You can then gauge interest for a book, if thats what you ultimately want to do.

I’ve taken preliminary legal advice. Apparently it wouldn’t be a breach of copyright so I’ll just give it some thought about how best to go about it. Not expecting floods of interest as this whole topic is something of a niche interest. The market would be limited. It would probably have to be an ebook for that reason. Apparently someone has already started a thread on the subject. I was more interested in the concept of putting the material into book form, hence commenting on this thread. I reiterate, the U.K. average chart compiled by Mr Tibbs would be of much more interest, my effort is more akin to the original BBC chart and probably just as prone to errors.

[kingofskiffle]

I would encourage you to start a new thread with this, as it is a good idea. You can then gauge interest for a book, if thats what you ultimately want to do.

[Magician]

As a taster, here is the US Average Top Twenty of sixty years ago. Yes I know this thread relates to the alternative to the POTP chart and I don’t propose to make a habit of it but there is a common thread and I would also encourage Mr Tibbs to put his work in book form.

21 July 1962

1	1	Roses Are Red (My Love)	Bobby Vinton
2	4	The Wah Watusi	The Orlons
3	3	I Can't Stop Loving You	Ray Charles
4	2	The Stripper	David Rose and His Orchestra
5	6	Sealed With A Kiss	Brian Hyland
6	5	Wolverton Mountain	Claude King
7	11	Speedy Gonzales	Pat Boone
8	10	Gravy (For My Mashed Potatoes)	Dee Dee Sharp
9	16	Ahab, The Arab	Ray Stevens
10	19	Breaking Up Is Hard To Do	Neil Sedaka
11	12	Johnny Get Angry	Joanie Sommers
12	7	Palisades Park	Freddy Cannon
13	9	Al Di La'	Emilio Pericoli
14	14	Theme From Dr. Kildare (Three Stars Will Shine Tonight)	Richard Chamberlain
15	8	It Keeps Right On A-Hurtin'	Johnny Tillotson
16	17	Having A Party	Sam Cooke
17	—	Dancin' Party	Chubby Checker
18	—	Twist And Shout	The Isley Brothers
19	—	You'll Lose A Good Thing	Barbara Lynn
20	20	I'll Never Dance Again	Bobby Rydell

[Magician]

Several books exist on Amazon utilising data from the UK charts, both with and without the official charts company guidance. I would suggest that using the entire NME chart as is may be liable to copyright, but simply stating you used it would be fine. The records themselves are not subject to copyright as far as titles, etc go - unless you include images of the artwork. My view, am not a trained lawyer and this is not legal advice.

I used Billboard, Cashbox and Music Vendor/Record World, allocated chart points in the same way that they did to compile the BBC chart so the end product looks nothing like the source charts. The differences between the charts was much greater in some cases than the source charts for the BBC charts. It would be interesting to see how anyone could file a copyright claim but the ingenuity of the legal profession means one must exercise an abundance of caution. I wouldn’t for example do as Mr Tibbs has done and quote the data from the source charts. I wonder who has copyright for the BBC Chart.

[kingofskiffle]

I have a question. I have done a similar work to yourself, (although by no means as accurate), in relation to the US Charts of the 60s. In the absence of definitive data re sample sizes etc, I utilised a method similar to that employed by the BBC. Although my method for eliminating ties was much more ruthless, I still had to tolerate some tied positions. I am thinking of putting my work into book form and selling it as an ebook. This is something you should seriously consider in respect of your own magnificent effort which I have been following with great interest. If we did publish books containing our average charts, would we be in breach of copyright? Could we be subject to legal action? Have you ever considered this point? Once again your work is to be commended.

Several books exist on Amazon utilising data from the UK charts, both with and without the official charts company guidance. I would suggest that using the entire NME chart as is may be liable to copyright, but simply stating you used it would be fine. The records themselves are not subject to copyright as far as titles, etc go - unless you include images of the artwork. My view, am not a trained lawyer and this is not legal advice.

[Magician]

I have a question. I have done a similar work to yourself, (although by no means as accurate), in relation to the US Charts of the 60s. In the absence of definitive data re sample sizes etc, I utilised a method similar to that employed by the BBC. Although my method for eliminating ties was much more ruthless, I still had to tolerate some tied positions. I am thinking of putting my work into book form and selling it as an ebook. This is something you should seriously consider in respect of your own magnificent effort which I have been following with great interest. If we did publish books containing our average charts, would we be in breach of copyright? Could we be subject to legal action? Have you ever considered this point? Once again your work is to be commended.

[Richard M White]

What wonderful work Brian, and is now a very important point of reference as well. Congratulations

[MrTibbs]

For your info guys after a few weeks break I intend to start the next Extended RM project mid August so watch out for the new thread around that time.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Brian, thanks again for all your hard dedicated work on this super duper thread !! I can't believe it's been 2 years on this adventure, wow !! Time sure does fly by, getting faster the older we get... So many good comments and thoughts and input by so many, it was a real historical educational experience for all of us. (I just wish Alan Smith had been here to party with us along the way. He's still out there, I heard from him about 2 months ago.)

[MrTibbs]

A big thank-you from me too.

If the British Library have put the RMs on microfilm by now your job will be a lot easier, as you'll be able to zap the pages to your email.

I never thought on that Splodj but I will find out for sure as that would make it quicker and easier. Thanks for that useful hint.

[Splodj]

A big thank-you from me too.

If the British Library have put the RMs on microfilm by now your job will be a lot easier, as you'll be able to zap the pages to your email.

[Robbie]

Thanks for the thread MrTibbs. It has been a great read. The amount of work you have put into the thread over the past two years has been immense and is much appreciated. Now, put your feet up and have a few weeks rest before you head down to London to obtain those dealer charts!

[MrTibbs]

Corrected David thanks.

[braindeadpj]

It should say 30 rather than 20 for the UAC on the bridging chart for the December 28th 1968 chart for Donovan.

[MrTibbs]

Thanks for sticking with it. It has totally been worthwhile. It's not just the 24 likes on the 1st post, it's the hundreds of likes throughout all these pages that show how much it has been appreciated.



I do hope you mean up to March 1962, wouldn't want you to miss a year of work

I do have one small, possibly cheeky, request. The only charts I am missing are the RM album charts so if you are scanning can you catch them as well

Yeah Brain I will scan the album charts too. I said March 61 because unfortunately RM stopped publishing the dealer charts then grrr

[BrainDamageII]

Thanks for sticking with it. It has totally been worthwhile. It's not just the 24 likes on the 1st post, it's the hundreds of likes throughout all these pages that show how much it has been appreciated.

.. and there they are guys, the UAC 1955 to 1969 week by week.

collect the remainder of the data till its conclusion in March 1961.

Yip ! It's about to happen !

I do hope you mean up to March 1962, wouldn't want you to miss a year of work

I do have one small, possibly cheeky, request. The only charts I am missing are the RM album charts so if you are scanning can you catch them as well