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Record Retailer Errors (1960-1994)

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  • #26
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post

    The article says: "It all began back in 1966 when the Sunday Times ran an article in which a record company questioned the absence of one of their LPs from the charts, despite its high sales." I'm curious; what was that LP?
    According to this post by asm, it was the Music for Pleasure release of "The Sound of Music" (as I remembered reading somewhere – probably the post in question was where I saw it).
    https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...tory#post47950

    The label's albums were often sold in stores that didn't report sales to the chart compilers, in addition to sometimes being excluded due to their low prices. Whatever the reason, the only Sound of Music recording that charted back then was the movie soundtrack on the RCA label.

    Comment


    • #27
      Thanks. I suppose the significance of the article was not so much about that particular record but that it raised the question of chart compilation in general and BMRB saw an opportunity to offer their services.

      Comment


      • #28
        Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
        I'm seeing something here in these articles I had not known/realized before. The BARS reports are noting 'effective sample size 300', 'diaries received on time 216', and from the Frith article only half = 150 of the diaries are actually used week to week, rotating among the shops. This is in the mid-70s.

        So maybe Brian might want to use for the Feb 1969 to 1971 Ultimate Chart at most a ramp up value of 150 BMRB charts in 1971, and not 200. That is, half of the effective sample size = the number that were actually used, and not the actual diaries received on time.

        Hmmm...
        Simon Frith was stating in his article that the BPI had recommended that the overall size of the weekly sample be increased from 300 to 600 shops with half of these diaries (300) then being chosen to compile the chart each week. This was designed to strengthen chart security. It doesn't suggest that only half (150) of the then current 300 diaries were used to compile the chart.

        Comment


        • #29
          Ah, I see said the blind man, thanks.

          Comment


          • #30
            Originally posted by Robbie View Post
            Simon Frith was stating in his article that the BPI had recommended that the overall size of the weekly sample be increased from 300 to 600 shops with half of these diaries (300) then being chosen to compile the chart each week. This was designed to strengthen chart security. It doesn't suggest that only half (150) of the then current 300 diaries were used to compile the chart.
            Yes they actually state "hence BPI’s suggestion that the sample be doubled and used more selectively" suggesting that they were currently using more than half of the available 300 diaries.

            Comment


            • #31
              The number of diaries also would vary from week to week, it would also depend on the postal system too. Strikes were common in the Seventies. In the Cable book for 1976 charts used the BMRB were using a different sales week too. From the start the BMRB operated a different system to the old point based charts. As I said before I doubt that any of the point based charts got the same number of shops taking part each week, which Mr Tibbs calculations are based on. So the current highest might have got between half and the full amount reporting back. But this didn't matter to them. The simply had less to add up. Assuming for example every shop had the same number one and 50 shops sent in a top 50 chart. Then that was 2,500 points. The fact that 65 shops had done it the previous week, resulting in 3,250 points, made no difference. But the BMRB were doing the calculations on 300 shops, regardless of how many of them sent in sales. If 250 shops did a return, the 50 missing shops were estimated, based on the rest of the panel to get 300 results.
              If Mr Tibbs wants to do the charts using the BMRB he has to put in 300 shops for them. I have never seen him reduce the shop totals week by week on the current charts. He just goes on what they have told him the point based charts were using and sticks with them.
              Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

              Comment


              • #32
                We are talking mid seventies here though for 300 as a target not the very early years of 69/70 when the returns were nothing close to this, and also the figure may have been an aimed for 300 but non returns and spoilt diary returns would considerably reduce the 300 surely.
                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                Comment


                • #33
                  ^
                  250 not 300 for BMRB. The sample size was set at 300 with the actual chart compiled from 250 of the 300 diaries. That was how it was supposed to work but of course in practice it didn't happen for a few years.

                  Comment


                  • #34
                    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
                    Which begs the question: how many more times did RR and RM disagree 1962 to 1969?
                    I know of the following additional occasions where the RR and RM chart disagree


                    WE December 14th, 1963
                    RR RM LW
                    46 (NE) Kansas City - Trini Lopez
                    47 46 (50) The First Time - Adam Faith
                    48 47 (49) Girl Sang The Blues - Everly Brothers
                    49 48 (39) Sue's Gonna Be Mine - Del Shannon
                    50 49 (40) Memphis Tennessee - Dave Berry and The Cruisers
                    50 (41) Red Sails In The Sunset - Fats Domino
                    WE March 28th, 1964
                    RR RM LW
                    1 1 (1) Little Children - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakota
                    2 2 (5) Just One Look - Hollies
                    3 3 (4) Not Fade Away - Rolling Stones
                    4 4 (3) Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black
                    5 6 (9) I Love You Because - Jim Reeves
                    6 5 (2) Bits And Pieces - Dave Clark Five
                    7 8 (12) That Girl Belongs To Yesterday - Gene Pitney
                    8 7 (NE) Can't Buy Me Love - Beatles
                    9 9 (8) Boys Cry - Eden Kane
                    10 11 (6) Diane - Bachelors
                    11 10 (28) I Believe - Bachelors
                    12 12 (18) Tell Me When - Applejacks
                    13 14 (14) Theme For Young Lovers - Shadows
                    14 13 (7) I Think Of You - Merseybeats
                    15 15 (11) Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby
                    16 16 (36) World Without Love - Peter and Gordon
                    17 19 (13) Stay Awhile - Dusty Springfield
                    18 22 (10) Needles And Pins - Searchers
                    19 20 (15) Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes
                    20 17 (29) Viva Las Vegas - Elvis Presley
                    21 18 (16) Over You - Freddie and The Dreamers
                    22 21 (17) Borne On The Wind - Roy Orbison
                    23 23 (39) Good Golly Miss Molly - Swinging Blue Jeans
                    24 26 (20) As Usual - Brenda Lee
                    25 25 (19) I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers
                    26 24 (34) Move Over Darling - Doris Day
                    27 27 (23) Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd
                    28 30 (43) My Boy Lollipop - Millie
                    29 35 (37) My World Of Blue - Karl Denver
                    30 33 (21) Baby I Love You - Ronettes
                    31 29 (22) 5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann
                    32 37 (25) I Want To Hold Your Hand - Beatles
                    33 31 (31) If He Tells You - Adam Faith
                    34 34 (27) For You - Ricky Nelson
                    35 36 (41) Mary Jane - Del Shannon
                    36 28 (40) It's An Open Secret - Joy Strings
                    37 39 (NE) Everything's Alright - Mojos
                    38 32 (44) New Orleans - Bern Elliott and the Fenmen
                    39 44 (24) I'm The Lonely One - Cliff Richard
                    40 40 (26) You Were There - Heinz
                    41 43 (32) Hippy Hippy Shake - Swinging Blue Jeans
                    42 38 (35) I Love How You Love Me - Maureen Evans
                    43 49 (30) Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield
                    44 41 (38) Glad All Over - Dave Clark Five
                    45 46 (33) Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney
                    46 50 (47) King Of Kings - Ezz Reco / The Launchers / Boysie Grant
                    47 (NE) Hi-heel Sneakers - Tommy Tucker
                    48 42 (42) She Loves You - Beatles
                    49 (50) Mocking Bird Hill - Migil Five
                    50 (NE) Unchained Melody - Jimmy Young
                    45 (45) Nadine - Chuck Berry
                    47 (46) A Fool Never Learns - Andy Williams
                    48 (48) I Wonder - Crystals
                    WE December 26th, 1964
                    RR RM LW
                    37 (44) Ringo - Lorne Green
                    38 37 (NE) For Mama - Matt Monro
                    39 38 (36) Gone - Everly Brothers
                    40 39 (27) Sha La La - Manfred Mann
                    41 40 (33) Black Girl - Four Pennies
                    42 41 (30) Oh Pretty Woman - Roy Orbison
                    43 42 (42) Remember Walkin' In The Sand - Shangri-Las
                    44 43 (43) Tribute To Jim Reeves - Larry Cunningham and The Mighty Avons
                    45 44 (NE) Elizabeth Serenade - Gunther Kallman Choir
                    46 45 (NE) March Of The Mods - Joe Loss Orchestra
                    47 46 (NE) We'll Sing In The Sunshine - Lancastrians
                    48 47 (40) Google Eye - Nashville Teens
                    49 48 (NE) Choc Ice - Long and the Short
                    50 49 (47) What'cha Gonna Do About It - Doris Troy
                    50 (49) Twelfth Of Never - Cliff Richard
                    WE April 17th, 1965
                    RR RM LW
                    1 1 (4) The Minute You're Gone - Cliff Richard
                    2 3 (1) Concrete And Clay - Unit Four Plus Two
                    3 2 (3) For Your Love - Yardbirds
                    4 4 (5) Catch The Wind - Donovan
                    5 5 (6) Here Comes The Night - Them
                    6 9 (2) The Last Time - Rolling Stones
                    7 6 (12) Stop In The Name Of Love - Supremes
                    8 8 (10) I Can't Explain - Who
                    9 7 (13) The Times They Are A Changin' - Bob Dylan
                    10 13 (19) Pop Go The Workers - Barron Knights
                    11 10 (NE) Ticket To Ride - Beatles
                    12 11 (17) Little Things - Dave Berry
                    13 18 (7) It's Not Unusual - Tom Jones
                    14 20 (26) King Of The Road - Roger Miller
                    15 12 (16) I'll Be There - Gerry and The Pacemakers
                    16 16 (14) You're Breakin' My Heart - Keeley Smith
                    17 17 (34) Bring It On Home To Me - Animals
                    18 22 (11) Goodbye My Love - Searchers
                    19 21 (15) I'll Never Find Another You - Seekers
                    20 23 (8) Come and Stay With Me - Marianne Faithfull
                    21 14 (9) Silhouettes - Herman's Hermits
                    22 15 (18) Everybody's Gonna Be Happy - Kinks
                    23 19 (28) All Over The World - Francoise Hardy
                    24 24 (39) True Love Ways - Peter and Gordon
                    25 29 (20) I'll Stop At Nothing - Sandie Shaw
                    26 25 (32) Nowhere To Run - Martha and The Vandellas
                    27 35 (21) I Must Be Seeing Things - Gene Pitney
                    28 32 (22) I Know A Place - Petula Clark
                    29 31 (24) Reelin' And Rockin' - Dave Clark Five
                    30 30 (25) Do The Clam - Elvis Presley
                    31 37 (27) Yes I Will - Hollies
                    32 26 (49) I'm Gonna Get There Somehow - Val Doonican
                    33 28 (31) Hawaiian Wedding Song - Julie Rogers
                    34 27 (40) A Windmill In Old Amsterdam - Ronnie Hilton
                    35 36 (50) At The Club - Drifters
                    36 38 (33) The Birds And The Bees - Jewel Akens
                    37 39 (23) Honey I Need - Pretty Things
                    38 40 (35) True Love For Evermore - Bachelors
                    39 (NE) Not Until The Next Time - Jim Reeves
                    40 (NE) Oh No Not My Baby - Manfred Mann
                    41 45 (36) I Don't Want To Go Without You - Moody Blues
                    42 43 (29) I Apologise - P.J. Proby
                    43 (NE) World Of Our Own - Seekers
                    44 33 (42) Without You - Matt Monro
                    45 (NE) It's Growing - Temptations
                    46 (NE) Times They Are A Changin' - Ian Campbell Folk Group
                    47 34 (37) You Can Have Him - Dionne Warwick
                    48 41 (30) In The Meantime - Georgie Fame
                    49 42 (46) Next Time I See Mary Anne - Shadows
                    50 44 (44) Game Of Love - Wayne Fontana
                    46 (43) The In Crowd - Dobie Gray
                    47 (45) Find My Way Back Home - Nashville Teens
                    48 (38) The Special Years - Val Doonican
                    49 (47) Hey Good Lookin' - Bo Diddley
                    50 (41) It Hurts So Much - Jim Reeves
                    WE April 24th, 1965
                    RR RM LW
                    1 1 (11) Ticket To Ride - Beatles
                    2 2 (5) Here Comes The Night - Them
                    3 3 (1) The Minute You're Gone - Cliff Richard
                    4 13 (2) Concrete And Clay - Unit Four Plus Two
                    5 8 (12) Little Things - Dave Berry
                    6 5 (4) Catch The Wind - Donovan
                    7 4 (3) For Your Love - Yardbirds
                    8 9 (14) King Of The Road - Roger Miller
                    9 14 (6) The Last Time - Rolling Stones
                    10 15 (10) Pop Go The Workers - Barron Knights
                    11 12 (17) Bring It On Home To Me - Animals
                    12 6 (7) Stop In The Name Of Love - Supremes
                    13 7 (9) The Times They Are A Changin' - Bob Dylan
                    14 16 (16) You're Breakin' My Heart - Keeley Smith
                    15 10 (8) I Can't Explain - Who
                    16 17 (15) I'll Be There - Gerry and The Pacemakers
                    17 11 (22) Everybody's Gonna Be Happy - Kinks
                    18 27 (13) It's Not Unusual - Tom Jones
                    19 24 (43) World Of Our Own - Seekers
                    20 18 (24) True Love Ways - Peter and Gordon
                    21 34 (20) Come and Stay With Me - Marianne Faithfull
                    22 20 (21) Silhouettes - Herman's Hermits
                    23 32 (18) Goodbye My Love - Searchers
                    24 29 (19) I'll Never Find Another You - Seekers
                    25 23 (32) I'm Gonna Get There Somehow - Val Doonican
                    26 26 (40) Oh No Not My Baby - Manfred Mann
                    27 19 (23) All Over The World - Francoise Hardy
                    28 (37) Honey I Need - Pretty Things
                    29 25 (36) The Birds And The Bees - Jewel Akens
                    30 (28) I Know A Place - Petula Clark
                    31 21 (26) Nowhere To Run - Martha and The Vandellas
                    32 42 (25) I'll Stop At Nothing - Sandie Shaw
                    33 36 (30) Do The Clam - Elvis Presley
                    34 43 (38) True Love For Evermore - Bachelors
                    35 (NE) Where Are You Now (My Love) - Jackie Trent
                    36 38 (34) A Windmill In Old Amsterdam - Ronnie Hilton
                    37 31 (NE) A Little You - Freddie and The Dreamers
                    38 39 (39) Not Until The Next Time - Jim Reeves
                    39 30 (29) Reelin' And Rockin' - Dave Clark Five
                    40 33 (33) Hawaiian Wedding Song - Julie Rogers
                    41 48 (41) I Don't Want To Go Without You - Moody Blues
                    42 41 (NE) I Must Be Seeing Things - Gene Pitney
                    43 (NE) I've Been Wrong Before - Cilla Black
                    44 (NE) I Keep Ringing Baby - Soul Brothers
                    45 44 (47) You Can Have Him - Dionne Warwick
                    46 45 (46) Times They Are A Changin' - Ian Campbell Folk Group
                    47 37 (31) Yes I Will - Hollies
                    48 (48) In The Meantime - Georgie Fame
                    49 (RE) The Special Years - Val Doonican
                    50 40 (35) At The Club - Drifters
                    22 (NE) Wonderful World - Herman's Hermits
                    28 (NE) That's Why I'm Crying - Ivy League
                    35 (44) Without You - Matt Monro
                    46 (NE) That'll Be The Day - Everly Brothers
                    47 (NE) The In Crowd - Dobie Gray
                    49 (NE) Find My Way Back Home - Nashville Teens
                    50 (NE) Satisfied - Lulu
                    WE May 1st, 1965
                    RR RM LW
                    1 1 (1) Ticket To Ride - Beatles
                    2 2 (3) The Minute You're Gone - Cliff Richard
                    3 3 (2) Here Comes The Night - Them
                    4 4 (8) King Of The Road - Roger Miller
                    5 5 (10) Pop Go The Workers - Barron Knights
                    6 6 (5) Little Things - Dave Berry
                    7 7 (11) Bring It On Home To Me - Animals
                    8 8 (4) Concrete And Clay - Unit Four Plus Two
                    9 9 (6) Catch The Wind - Donovan
                    10 10 (12) Stop In The Name Of Love - Supremes
                    11 11 (7) For Your Love - Yardbirds
                    12 12 (9) The Last Time - Rolling Stones
                    13 13 (13) The Times They Are A Changin' - Bob Dylan
                    14 14 (20) True Love Ways - Peter and Gordon
                    15 15 (19) World Of Our Own - Seekers
                    16 16 (14) You're Breakin' My Heart - Keeley Smith
                    17 17 (26) Oh No Not My Baby - Manfred Mann
                    18 18 (15) I Can't Explain - Who
                    19 27 (24) I'll Never Find Another You - Seekers
                    20 20 (27) All Over The World - Francoise Hardy
                    21 21 (16) I'll Be There - Gerry and The Pacemakers
                    22 23 (18) It's Not Unusual - Tom Jones
                    23 24 (17) Everybody's Gonna Be Happy - Kinks
                    24 25 (35) Where Are You Now (My Love) - Jackie Trent
                    25 26 (21) Come and Stay With Me - Marianne Faithfull
                    26 19 (NE) Wonderful World - Herman's Hermits
                    27 28 (37) A Little You - Freddie and The Dreamers
                    28 29 (25) I'm Gonna Get There Somehow - Val Doonican
                    29 30 (22) Silhouettes - Herman's Hermits
                    30 31 (38) Not Until The Next Time - Jim Reeves
                    31 32 (43) I've Been Wrong Before - Cilla Black
                    32 33 (23) Goodbye My Love - Searchers
                    33 34 (31) Nowhere To Run - Martha and The Vandellas
                    34 35 (29) The Birds And The Bees - Jewel Akens
                    35 36 (NE) Subterranean Homesick Blues - Bob Dylan
                    36 37 (NE) Love Her - Walker Brothers
                    37 38 (36) A Windmill In Old Amsterdam - Ronnie Hilton
                    38 (30) I Know A Place - Petula Clark
                    39 40 (NE) Something Better Beginning - Honeycombs
                    40 41 (NE) Come On Over To My Place - Drifters
                    41 42 (50) At The Club - Drifters
                    42 43 (34) True Love For Evermore - Bachelors
                    43 44 (44) I Keep Ringing Baby - Soul Brothers
                    44 45 (32) I'll Stop At Nothing - Sandie Shaw
                    45 46 (28) Honey I Need - Pretty Things
                    46 47 (45) You Can Have Him - Dionne Warwick
                    47 48 (39) Reelin' And Rockin' - Dave Clark Five
                    48 49 (41) I Don't Want To Go Without You - Moody Blues
                    49 50 (40) Hawaiian Wedding Song - Julie Rogers
                    50 39 (33) Do The Clam - Elvis Presley
                    22 (NE) That's Why I'm Crying - Ivy League
                    WE November 19th, 1966
                    RR RM LW
                    =50 (NE) Think Sometimes About Me - Sandie Shaw
                    WE November 26th, 1966
                    RR RM LW
                    50 (36) I'm A Boy - Who
                    50 (39) Have You Seen Your Mother Baby Standing In The Shadow - Rolling Stones
                    WE October 7th, 1967
                    RR RM LW
                    38 48 (49) Baby Now That I've Found You - Foundations
                    39 38 (NE) Anthing Goes - Harper's Bizarre
                    40 39 (27) All You Need Is Love - Beatles
                    41 40 (28) Pleasant Valley Sunday - Monkees
                    42 41 (NE) You've Not Changed - Sandie Shaw
                    43 42 (48) Funky Broadway - Wilson Pickett
                    44 43 (36) World We Knew - Frank Sinatra
                    45 44 (40) It Must Be Him - Vikki Carr
                    46 45 (41) Soul Finger - Bar-Kays
                    47 46 (44) Train To Skaville - Ethiopians
                    48 47 (43) Up Up And Away - Johnny Mann Singers
                    49 49 (50) The Letter - Mindbenders
                    50 50 (35) Creeque Alley - Mamas and The Papas
                    WE September 7th, 1968
                    RR RM LW
                    1 1 (2) I've Gotta Get A Message To You - Bee Gees
                    2 4 (1) Do It Again - Beach Boys
                    3 2 (3) This Guy's In Love With You - Herb Alpert
                    4 5 (8) I Say A Little Prayer - Aretha Franklin
                    5 3 (5) Help Yourself - Tom Jones
                    6 6 (7) High In The Sky - Amen Corner
                    7 7 (11) Hold Me Tight - Johnny Nash
                    8 10 (6) Fire - Crazy World of Arthur Brown
                    9 9 (4) Mony Mony - Tommy James and The Shondells
                    10 17 (16) On The Road Again - Canned Heat
                    11 13 (9) Sunshine Girl - Herman's Hermits
                    12 11 (12) Keep On - Bruce Channel
                    13 8 (10) Dance To The Music - Sly and The Family Stone
                    14 12 (18) Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Mama Cass
                    15 15 (21) Lady Willpower - Garry Puckett and The Union Gap
                    16 14 (14) I Pretend - Des O'Connor
                    17 22 (13) I Close My Eyes And Count To Ten - Dusty Springfield
                    18 19 (19) Hard To Handle - Otis Redding
                    19 18 (15) Days - Kinks
                    20 16 (31) Little Arrows - Leapy Lee
                    21 27 (NE) Hey Jude - Beatles
                    22 26 (24) Jesamine - Casuals
                    23 24 (17) Mrs. Robinson - Simon and Garfunkel
                    24 36 (22) Your Time Hasn't Come Yet Baby - Elvis Presley
                    25 35 (20) Last Night In Soho - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Titch
                    26 33 (33) Ice In The Sun - Status Quo
                    27 23 (28) Voices In The Sky - Moody Blues
                    28 43 (25) America - Nice
                    29 20 (38) Yesterday's Dream - Four Tops
                    30 21 (23) Universal - Small Faces
                    31 29 (43) Classical Gas - Mason Williams
                    32 25 (36) C'mon Marianne - Grapefruit
                    33 28 (40) I Need Your Love So Bad - Fleetwood Mac
                    34 31 (50) I Live For The Sun - Vanity Fair
                    35 32 (26) Macarthur Park - Richard Harris
                    36 30 (27) Son Of Hickory Holler's Tramp - O.C. Smith
                    37 39 (35) Laurel And Hardy - Equals
                    38 37 (30) Here Comes The Judge - Pigmeat Markham
                    39 34 (29) Baby Come Back - Equals
                    40 41 (42) Eleanor Rigby - Ray Charles
                    41 40 (34) Dream A Little Dream Of Me - Anita Harris
                    42 42 (32) Yummy Yummy Yummy - Ohio Express
                    43 45 (37) Angel Of The Morning - P.P. Arnold
                    44 44 (46) Walk On - Roy Orbison
                    45 38 (47) Importance Of Your Love - Vince Hill
                    46 (41) Hello I Love You - Doors
                    47 48 (49) When The Sum Comes Shining Thru' - Long John Baldry
                    48 46 (NE) One Inch Rock - Tyrannosaurus Rex
                    49 (NE) Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin
                    50 (39) Gotta See Jane - R. Dean Taylor
                    47 (48) Woman Woman - Union Gap
                    49 (NE) The Good The Bad and the Ugly - Hugo Montenegro
                    50 (44) Yesterday Has Gone - Cupid's Inspiration
                    WE October 19th, 1968
                    RR RM LW
                    50 (35) Sunshine Girl - Herman's Hermits
                    50 (37) Dance To The Music - Sly & the Family Stone
                    WE November 2nd, 1968
                    RR RM LW
                    45 49 (36) Red Red Wine - Jimmy James & the Vagabonds
                    49 45 (44) You'll Never Walk Alone - Elvis Presley
                    WE December 21st, 1968
                    RR RM LW
                    48 49 (33) Little Arrows - Leapy Lee
                    49 48 (38) You'll Never Walk Alone - Eeny Meeny - Showstoppers
                    WE July 26th, 1969
                    RR RM LW
                    34 35 (NE) Early In The Morning - Vanity Fair
                    35 36 (31) Born To Be Wild - Steppenwolf
                    36 37 (21) Wet Dream - Max Romeo
                    37 38 (48) No Matter What Sign You Are - Diana Ross and The Supremes
                    38 40 (NE) Curly - Move
                    39 41 (30) It's Your Thing - Isley Brothers
                    40 42 (NE) Too Busy Thinking About My Baby - Marvin Gaye
                    41 43 (35) I'd Rather Go Blind - Chicken Shack
                    42 44 (46) Tomorrow Tomorrow - Bee Gees
                    43 34 (49) Love Man - Otis Redding
                    44 46 (NE) Heather Honey - Tommy Roe
                    45 45 (NE) Need Your Love So Bad - Fleetwood Mac
                    46 46 (38) Tracks Of My Tears - Smokey Robinson and The Miracles
                    47 48 (NE) Si Tu Dois Partir - Fairport Convention
                    48 39 (37) Love Me Tonight - Tom Jones
                    49 49 (42) The Boxer - Simon and Garfunkel
                    50 50 (45) Higher And Higher - Jackie Wilson
                    WE September 20th, 1969
                    RR RM LW
                    48 49 (NE) For Once In My Life - Dorothy Squires
                    49 48 (42) Need Your Love So Bad - Fleetwood Mac
                    WE November 1at, 1969
                    RR RM LW
                    34 44 (35) Wet Dream - Max Romeo
                    44 34 (24) Viva Bobby Joe - Equals
                    Last edited by chartwatcherdl; Fri April 23, 2021, 22:16.

                    Comment


                    • #35
                      So "Satisfied" by Lulu & The Luvvers (as it is credited in Music Echo where it peaked at #68) did into the UK (Official) Chart at #50
                      but not in RR, another Non-Guinness Hit.
                      Last edited by Woz1234; Sat April 24, 2021, 04:39.

                      Comment


                      • #36
                        I didn't realise there were so many RR/RM differences. I presume these differences were reflected in the following week's 'last week' positions. In many cases it is almost as if the RM printer couldn't be fagged to typeset new entries!

                        Comment


                        • #37
                          Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                          We are talking mid seventies here though for 300 as a target not the very early years of 69/70 when the returns were nothing close to this, and also the figure may have been an aimed for 300 but non returns and spoilt diary returns would considerably reduce the 300 surely.
                          But if you check one of the few Record Retailer charts from 1969 on the American PDF site, it clearly states 300! I have added 16 August 1969 detail just now
                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by Graham76man; Sat April 24, 2021, 13:14. Reason: Picture added
                          Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                          Comment


                          • #38
                            Even if they used only 75 returns the fact that these recorded sales means it cannot he regarded the same as a 75 return

                            Comment


                            • #39
                              points based chart. I believe that in week 1 they correctly identified Amen Corner as the biggest seller, in the same way that The Sun in 1964 identified the Stones as top on a similar sales return, which was verified by a larger-than-MM points survey.

                              Comment


                              • Graham76man
                                Graham76man commented
                                Editing a comment
                                If you look at the correct week ending dates for the charts. The BMRB was the only one to have Amen Corner top, all the rest had it outside the top five! And the MM had records that had even fallen out of NME and didn't show in BMRB at all. You also can't compare 1964 with 1969. For a start many had changed how they compiled the charts, especially MM in 1967. Some had also up the numbers.

                            • #40
                              Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                              Even if they used only 75 returns the fact that these recorded sales means it cannot he regarded the same as a 75 return
                              But Mr Tibbs only uses the figures that they were supposed to work with. He does not vary the Melody Maker, NME, Disc or Record Mirror shops. Only when he knows (or has been told) that the figures have been changed. Unless he can find some information that says that the first chart was based on less shops than 300. And I mean from the time, not anyone on here or some recorded information quoted by someone. It would be best to stick with 300. As he does with the other charts. It's hardly the fault of BMRB if they are a little more open in how they get the figures for the charts. The others are far less open when it comes to how many shops each week take part. And I don't believe that any of them got all the shops to submit full sales figures every week.
                              Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                              Comment


                              • #41
                                I’ve been working on a chartruns file and I’m also trying to make a comprehensive file of non Guinness hits. In the process of collecting charts I have gotten hold of RR for some weeks and RM for others. I’ve believed that they carried the same charts but have run into problems both chartrunswise and chartwise. Chartwatcherdl has above made clear what the real problem is. Does anybody, or we chart fans together have the capacity to dig out the disagreeing charts and make an evaluated guess regarding which of the two charts is the more reliable and which chart’s discrepancies should be considered breakers?

                                As I see it this problem deserves it’s own thread.

                                Comment


                                • #42
                                  That blurb in RR reads "compiled from a panel of 300 record shops". 300 is the pool size, it is not the number of diaries that were turned in for a given week. The 300 number is a continuous running number week to week, I just looked at some of the Music Week charts in the mid 70s. But we have 3 BARS reports from the mid 70s that give us the number of diaries turned in, which range from 158 to the low 200's.

                                  Comment


                                  • Graham76man
                                    Graham76man commented
                                    Editing a comment
                                    Regardless of how many were coming in, it should be 300. Unless you can find the week on week numbers coming in for the entire time, Mr Tibbs must base all charts on 300. He does not alter the number of MM, RM, NME or Disc, so why should he do that for BMRB?

                                • #43
                                  Originally posted by Woz1234 View Post
                                  So "Satisfied" by Lulu & The Luvvers (as it is credited in Music Echo where it peaked at #68) did into the UK (Official) Chart at #50
                                  but not in RR, another Non-Guinness Hit.
                                  RR was designated 'official' for the 60s in 2001/2002, not RM.

                                  So "Satisfied" did get into the RM chart at #50, but not in RR (declared 'official' in 2001/2002), another non-Guinness hit.

                                  Glad to see another Lulu record charted !!

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                                  • #44
                                    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post

                                    RR was designated 'official' for the 60s in 2001/2002, not RM.

                                    So "Satisfied" did get into the RM chart at #50, but not in RR (declared 'official' in 2001/2002), another non-Guinness hit.

                                    Glad to see another Lulu record charted !!
                                    This solves another problem I was having a long time ago. I got contacted by somebody saying that Lulu and Satisfied had charted and I should have it in my book. I use whatever RR printed, and so I don't. However it was listed as in another book who clearly had used RM and I could never fathom the reason why. Until now. I never looked at the RM chart after it started to take RR because I had access to the RR copies, so no need. Only for non printed weeks did I look. Nice that I can finally understand why the book had that odd record entry!
                                    http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                    Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

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                                    • #45
                                      As Alan Smith informed us about the tied chart positions in the early RR charts (half a dozen ties per week from 30 sampled record shops), and as Brian proved in his "Record Mirror early charts 1954-55" thread (3 to 5 ties per week from 11 to 40 sampled record shops), the fewer the number of charts that are sampled will result in more ties. The BMRB chart had numerous ties in the early going, suggesting a low sample of record shops, this was Alan's conclusion. I haven't done a study on the BMRB ties week by week, but it should be interesting to track them. Alan said BMRB didn't have a tie-breaker system in place until sometime in 1972.

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                                      • #46
                                        Lonnie, you'll now have to revise your Record Mirror book and extend it from 1962 to 1969, ha! Put me down for a copy...

                                        Thankfully there are many, many issues of RM 1962-69 on the World Radio History magazine site to get at those charts !! Plus we have the Jasper RM book...

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                                        • #47
                                          And a huge thanks to "chartwatcherdl" for bringing these RM / RR differences to our attention !!

                                          Assumed history is corrected back to the truth once again !!

                                          "chartwatcherdl" : how many RM / RR charts have you compared 1962-69? A high, medium, or low %? Cheers !!

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                                          • #48
                                            I just stumbled across the Rock File article linked above "How The Charts Are Compiled: Part 1 Britain" in the July-27-1975 issue of Music Week, page 16, on the World Radio History magazine site. It has 2 interesting BARS graphs / charts from 1971 and 1973 not included in the Rock File version.

                                            The article states the panel consists of 300 record shops, and "one of these [security / accuracy] checks is a series of telephone calls to 50 record dealers who are not part of the panel." Thus in a perfect week, BMRB would get and use 300 shop returns, and call an additional 50 to check / verify.

                                            Also stated, the diaries that arrive on time (here in 1975) are "in excess of 75 percent most weeks", which would thus be around 225 record shops plus or minus. Yet more proof that 300 shops were not yet attained.
                                            Last edited by RokinRobinOfLocksley; Sat April 24, 2021, 15:25. Reason: added BARS charts info

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                                            • #49
                                              By 1968 both Billboard and Cashbox magazines were carrying RR as their UK chart. So if RR had carried out post-op surgery on its 7-Sep-68 chart before handing it to RM, one might expect these changes also to have appeared in the Billboard/Cashbox versions.

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                                              • #50
                                                But what is the reason for the differences between the RR and RM charts?

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