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THE RECORD MIRROR CHARTS - Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, and Extended

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  • When testing out the Gallup points charts from later years were compiled as a test and those very closely match the finalised RM chart. It is fascinating to see the differences between this and the as printed RM chart.
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    • It's very interesting to see the differences between your RM chart and the RM original. Numbers 1 and 2 are the same but that's where agreement between the two charts ends. The highest placed version of 'Mr Sandman' in your RM chart isn't in the original RM top 10 while one of the lowest placed versions in your RM chart is.

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      • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
        It's very interesting to see the differences between your RM chart and the RM original. Numbers 1 and 2 are the same but that's where agreement between the two charts ends. The highest placed version of 'Mr Sandman' in your RM chart isn't in the original RM top 10 while one of the lowest placed versions in your RM chart is.
        Yeah Robbie and the mystery is why RM credited the #3 placing to The Chordettes because no matter what system was used for chart compilation it was never going to achieve anything like that position so the #3 placing has to be due to adding together all the versions so why didn't RM just say that
        The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

        The Biggest Chart Of The Time

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        • Now here's an interesting little fact that makes me wonder just how many store returns RM used back at this very early time. I'm working on the 19th February 1955 chart at present ( with 34 dealer returns printed) and on the chart page in the paper it prints and I quote :

          'The lists of over 100 dealers are supplied to us each week'

          Now that's a revelation we never knew before. Until now we always thought RM reached around 65 at its peak in the later fifties.
          This would I think suggest that RM did not use all returns and compiled from a sample.
          The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

          The Biggest Chart Of The Time

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          • I would imagine that it wouldn't be practical to use all returns as there would simply be too many to compile a chart with the resources allocated. Plus using a sample of returns ensures an element of randomness as a security check.

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            • That's what I think too Robbie. The chart at that time like I said above was a novelty so not a lot of time or resources would be allocated to it. I'm around two hours compiling from around 30 returns so a hundred would take a full day. I don't believe RM given deadlines and other reporting features would allocate anything like that time.
              The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

              The Biggest Chart Of The Time

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              • Just be grateful you don't have to phone round all the dealers to get the input!

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                • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                  Just be grateful you don't have to phone round all the dealers to get the input!
                  The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                  The Biggest Chart Of The Time

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                  • This disclosure of how RM made their original chart shows the need for the RM Extended, not only as I thought at first to increase the chart information hugely, but it’s just as important to make this new chart since the old one was not compiled seriously. In hindsight it’s clear that this is not only a better RM chart, but it’s also more reliable and more information packed than any of the competing charts during the mid 50ies. It’s reliability goes beyond the original RM, NME and MM at least up to and including 57. We may have to look into Alan Smith’s chart research to find out if any other chart even came close prior to the spring of 61 when these dealers’ charts stopped.

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                    • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                      Now here's an interesting little fact that makes me wonder just how many store returns RM used back at this very early time. I'm working on the 19th February 1955 chart at present ( with 34 dealer returns printed) and on the chart page in the paper it prints and I quote :

                      'The lists of over 100 dealers are supplied to us each week'

                      Now that's a revelation we never knew before. Until now we always thought RM reached around 65 at its peak in the later fifties.
                      This would I think suggest that RM did not use all returns and compiled from a sample.
                      This is most interesting. Which begs the questions, if RM didn't use all the returns: (1) how did they decide on which returns to use in their chart calculations, (2) and how did they decide on which returns to publish? Perhaps from the largest record shops? Or the first dealer charts they received on time?

                      Did they possibly publish only the returns they used in their calculations? Did they rotate the published dealers week to week? I'm thinking RM was probably offering / considering the published dealer charts as free advertising / recognition, in exchange for them turning in their weekly chart lists. But they couldn't publish them all each week.

                      Will be interesting to see the later years charts, assuming by then the artists stopped recording each other's songs...

                      Comment


                      • We need a macro that feeds in different combinations of store returns until it produces a match with the original RM chart. Then we'll know which stores they used.

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                        • (Assuming that they were printing all returns at this stage.)

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                          • It's interesting that the inverse points ranking - the way that RM would have calculated it - actually has Finger of Suspicion at no.1 rather than Mambo Italiano.
                            Possible explanations for this discrepancy between the inverse and RM rankings would be:
                            1. They didn't use all dealer returns printed
                            2. They merged different versions of Mambo Italiano together to boost it above Finger of Suspicion.

                            The only thing that would suggest that 2 is not correct is that if you merged all versions of Mr Sandman it would easily be no.1 rather than no.3; so perhaps they didn't merge all of the Mr Sandman's only some of them?
                            One possible explanation for the Chordettes being listed first would be if they ranked them in a pseudoalphabetical order, it would be first ie:
                            Chordettes, The
                            Dickie Valentine
                            Four Aces, The
                            Les Paul
                            Max Bygraves
                            Last edited by braindeadpj; Fri September 30, 2022, 15:03.

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                            • Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post

                              Did they possibly publish only the returns they used in their calculations?
                              Logically you would've thought they'd only publish the returns they used as someone could come along and basically do what we have done and (hopefully) reproduce the chart themselves. However the fact that we can't reproduce it exactly may suggest that this is not the case after all OR they used undisclosed criteria for summing the totals.

                              Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post

                              Did they rotate the published dealers week to week? I'm thinking RM was probably offering / considering the published dealer charts as free advertising / recognition, in exchange for them turning in their weekly chart lists. But they couldn't publish them all each week.
                              At one stage before they started on the chart and they regularly had 24 or so returns Mr,. Tibbs looked at 4 weeks (i think it was) and saw that there were 21-22 dealers used in all 4 charts and then the remainder changed.
                              Is something similar seen with this week's chart, Mr Tibbs?? Is there the standard 21-22 and then additional?

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                              • Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
                                At one stage before they started on the chart and they regularly had 24 or so returns Mr,. Tibbs looked at 4 weeks (i think it was) and saw that there were 21-22 dealers used in all 4 charts and then the remainder changed.
                                Is something similar seen with this week's chart, Mr Tibbs?? Is there the standard 21-22 and then additional?
                                Yeah brain there does seem to be a hard core of same dealers printed every week. To be honest though I don't have the time to do week on week comparisons interesting as this would be.
                                The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                The Biggest Chart Of The Time

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                                • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                                  It's the 22nd January 1955 and Record Mirror publishes it's first Top Ten.

                                  You will note some differences between this and the 're-calculated' chart and there are a few reasons for this. The points system is slightly different and fairer as I use Gallup calculated points. The RM compilation system is questionable at this point because the big difference is that initially and for some time Record Mirror combined some versions together under the one chart position. Almost certainly this happened with The Naughty Lady Of Shady Lane, Let Me Go Lover, and, Mr Sandman and possibly Mambo Italiano.

                                  I say 'some' versions because it would appear RM did this with some titles but not others. But keep in mind that at this time the chart was a 'fun' gimmick and not intended to be taken seriously.

                                  I have been following this thread regularly since it started and I have been interested to see many of the records that never charted anywhere being recognised as at least having sold enough copies to enter the dealer charts. I have been looking forward to seeing how the 22/1/55 chart would turn out and how different it would be from the published version from nearly sixty-eight years ago.

                                  There are so many huge differences between the published Record Mirror chart from 1955 and the version concocted by the so called “Mr Tibbs”. Record Mirror obviously had their own methodology for compiling their chart. Assuming that the data they used back in 1955 is the same as Mr Tibbs collected during his trip to London, you would think that the compiled chart would be pretty close to that compiled by the Record Mirror. As it is clearly nowhere near being accurate, May I suggest using a different method or giving up the project. The inaccurate nature of this chart and how it has been compiled should also call into question the value of Tibbs previous project, his fantasy, so called ‘Ultimate Chart’ which so much time and effort was spent on producing nothing of value.

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                                  • Originally posted by TopTwenty View Post

                                    There are so many huge differences between the published Record Mirror chart from 1955 and the version concocted by the so called “Mr Tibbs”. Record Mirror obviously had their own methodology for compiling their chart. Assuming that the data they used back in 1955 is the same as Mr Tibbs collected during his trip to London, you would think that the compiled chart would be pretty close to that compiled by the Record Mirror. As it is clearly nowhere near being accurate, May I suggest using a different method or giving up the project. The inaccurate nature of this chart and how it has been compiled should also call into question the value of Tibbs previous project, his fantasy, so called ‘Ultimate Chart’ which so much time and effort was spent on producing nothing of value.
                                    I would suggest that you modify the language a little as this post comes across as very rude. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion and to express that, but I do think that you need be a little less rude here. I would suggest reading the posting guidelines for the forum.

                                    I think the introduction to this thread details the methodology used quite clearly and the reasoning behind it. Others have used similar ideas to utilise the data showcased in Record Mirror - for example the Hits That Missed book. I would also point out that the Ultimate Chart has produced something of value as it helped iron out the differences and inaccuracies with the BBC chart.
                                    http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                    Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

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                                    • The Record Mirror Re-calculated chart is based each week on the complete set of dealers’ charts printed in the Record Mirror. It seems that the paper itself only used a sample of those dealers’ charts. The extraction method of information from these dealers’ charts to shape the new chart was designed by a team of four people including MrTibbs who has a broad competence in statistics, mathematics and information technology which by far exceeds the methods known in the fifties. This is the most thorough chart producing project of the fifties.

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                                      • Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post

                                        I would suggest that you modify the language a little as this post comes across as very rude. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion and to express that, but I do think that you need be a little less rude here. I would suggest reading the posting guidelines for the forum.

                                        I think the introduction to this thread details the methodology used quite clearly and the reasoning behind it. Others have used similar ideas to utilise the data showcased in Record Mirror - for example the Hits That Missed book. I would also point out that the Ultimate Chart has produced something of value as it helped iron out the differences and inaccuracies with the BBC chart.
                                        Oh Deary Me.

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                                        • I would respectfully disagree with you Top Twenty. The title of the thread includes recalculated and reworked and as such it does not necessarily need to resemble the 'official' RM chart. The main reason for inclduing RM charts in the title would be it is based on the delaer charts publsihed in RM. It also highlights discrepancies in how RM may have compiled the chart. As we know from a prior thread when Mr. Tibbs initially did a pilot recalculation of the RM chart, there were discrepancies early on that were to some extent ironed out as we progressed through the year as RM settled on a more cohesive means of handling double-sided hits and were into a rhythm (so to speak). The discrepancies between this threads chart and the RM chart does suggest that they may not have used all the dealer charts at their disposal for calculating the charts and does raise the question of how they decided which dealers to use.

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                                          • Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post

                                            This is most interesting. Which begs the questions, if RM didn't use all the returns: (1) how did they decide on which returns to use in their chart calculations, (2) and how did they decide on which returns to publish? Perhaps from the largest record shops? Or the first dealer charts they received on time?

                                            Did they possibly publish only the returns they used in their calculations? Did they rotate the published dealers week to week? I'm thinking RM was probably offering / considering the published dealer charts as free advertising / recognition, in exchange for them turning in their weekly chart lists. But they couldn't publish them all each week.

                                            Will be interesting to see the later years charts, assuming by then the artists stopped recording each other's songs...
                                            It is also possible that the RM didn’t print all of the retailer charts. This of course means that we don’t have the full set of those that were sent to RM. no one will ever know how many were sent, received, used in the chart or printed in the paper. Everything is based on guesswork. Every piece of data is subject to doubt, misinterpretation, guesswork and hunches.

                                            Last edited by TopTwenty; Fri September 30, 2022, 22:29.

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                                            • In the 22nd January issue, RM says: "Tops in the current record hits are the following, analysed from the details sent in by the dealers whose lists are published here". This would seem to confirm that all lists used this week were published, and seems to suggest that all were used. Though I'd say the latter is not as definitive as the former....

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                                              • Originally posted by TopTwenty View Post

                                                It is also possible that the RM didn’t print all of the retailer charts. This of course means that we don’t have the full set of those that were sent to RM. no one will ever know how many were sent, received, used in the chart or printed in the paper. Everything is based on guesswork. Every piece of data is subject to doubt, misinterpretation, guesswork and hunches.
                                                I'm sorry you are disappointed with the direction of the project but both this and the UAC has proved to be a massive success with many others on the site and I think the views and likes in respect of these threads speak for themselves and their validity.

                                                For the record :

                                                These are not Record Mirror's own charts. This is a chart in its own right.
                                                These are based solely on what actual returns are printed in the paper so are factual and evidence based with no guesswork involved.
                                                The main goal of this was to chart every record that appeared on the dealers charts and to do this a chart needs to be compiled based solely on what charts are available to us now as printed in the paper. These are not meant to replace the original chart they are in addition to it.

                                                Finally it's cool if you don't like the threads, or even the UAC for that matter. I respect that and your views. But I don't respect the fact that you need to be rude about it. That was uncalled for and unnecessary when expressing your opinion.
                                                The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                                The Biggest Chart Of The Time

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                                                • While 47 Skin Deep - Ted Heath is definitely possible as this record was released in January 1954 and charted on the NME chart, 2 weeks ago Dig Deep - Ted Heath charted and this would agree with Hits That Missed.
                                                  Weirdly, Hits that Missed also don't have Skin Deep - Duke Ellington charting this month for some reason.

                                                  Also I think it is Humphrey Lyttelton for 55 Ace In The Hole and 68 Mezzy's Tune
                                                  Last edited by braindeadpj; Sun October 2, 2022, 03:55.

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                                                  • 22/1/1955
                                                    If we assume that the first RM chart had all the different versions combined with the highest placed position being the artist listed, then the top 10 (based on inverse points) would be the following:
                                                    1. Mambo Italiano - Rosemary Clooney (253-2 versions)
                                                    2. Mr Sandman - Dickie Valentine (206 -5 versions)
                                                    3. Finger of Suspicion – Finger of Suspicion (186-1 version)
                                                    4. Shake Rattle And Roll - Bill Haley and His Comets (73 -1 version)
                                                    5. I Still Believe / Veni Vidi Vici - Ronnie Hilton (64 - 2 versions)
                                                    6. Happy Days And Lonely Nights - Suzi Miller (61 -2 versions)
                                                    7. The Naughty Lady Of Shady Lane - Dean Martin (50 – 3 versions)
                                                    8. I Can't Tell A Waltz From A Tango - Alma Cogan (48 – 1 version)
                                                    9. No One But You - Billy Eckstine (46 -1 version)
                                                    10. Let Me Go Lover - Teresa Brewer (37- 4 versions)
                                                    So it doesn’t look like this fully covers what RM did…..

                                                    Interestingly, the inverse chart actually places Finger of Suspicion at no.1 and it features on every dealer chart, while Mambo Italiano is missing from 2 dealer charts (suggesting it is probably no.1 in more charts than Finger of Suspicion).
                                                    Average dealer score for Mambo Italiano is Gallup 7.51 and inverse 8.32 compared with 6.58 and 7.75 for Finger of Suspicion.
                                                    Longest appearances on the current chart is 20 nonconsecutive weeks for Don Cornell - Hold My Hand and 19 consecutive weeks for Kay Starr - Am I a Toy or Treasure (Fortune in Dreams was featured for 3 weeks and Doris Day - If I Give My Heart to You.

                                                    Also Count Your Blessings – Bing Crosby was at 23 last week.

                                                    Re-entries
                                                    47 Dig Deep – Ted Heath and his Music (Skin Deep -Ted Heath and His Music was issued a year ago and previously charted on the official chart but would be a new entry to this chart)
                                                    50 Mr. Sandman – Les Paul and Mary Ford
                                                    55 Skin Deep – Duke Ellington and his Orchestra
                                                    60 Bluebells of Broadway – Doris Day with Orchestra conducted by Ray Heindorf.
                                                    64 The Northern Lights of Aberdeen – Robert Wilson with Jimmy Shand and his Band
                                                    68 Count Your Blessings - Bing Crosby with orchestra directed by Joseph J. Lilley
                                                    68 Honey Love - Dennis Lotis with Ted Heath and his Music

                                                    Flipsides
                                                    32 Teach Me Tonight - Nat King Cole lost its flipside Papa Loves Mambo
                                                    36 How Do You Speak To An Angel – Dean Martin lost its flipside Every Street's a Boulevard in Old New York - Dean Martin & Jerry Lewis
                                                    39 This Ole House – Billie Anthony lost its flipside What A Dream
                                                    47 Cockney Capers is the flipside to What a Mouth, What a Mouth which charted previously
                                                    60 Delaney’s Delight is the flipside to Oranges and Lemons which charted previously

                                                    Full credit for 4 Mambo Italiano is Dean Martin with Orchestra and Chorus conducted by Dick Stabile
                                                    Full credit for 12 Softly Softly is Ruby Murray with Ray Martin and his Orchestra
                                                    Full credit for 14 The Naughty Lady of Shady Lane is Dean Martin with Orchestra and Chorus conducted by Dick Stabile
                                                    Full credit for 21 A Blossom Fell is Dickie Valentine with Johnny Douglas and his Orchestra
                                                    Full credit for 26 A Blossom Fell is Ronnie Hilton (and vocal group with orchestra conducted by Frank Cordell)
                                                    Full credit for 41 The Wild Colonial Boy is Patrick O’Hagan with Roy Robertson and his Orchestra (note record is from 1950)
                                                    Full credit for 41 Make Yourself Comfortable is Sarah Vaughan with Hugo Peretti and his Orchestra
                                                    Full credit for 41 It’s A Woman’s World is The Four Aces featuring Al Alberts with Orchestra directed by Jack Pleis
                                                    Full credit for 44 Don’t Go to Strangers is Al Martino with orchestra conducted by Gil Evans
                                                    Full credit for 50 Minor Mambo is The Kirchin Band (Basil & Ivor) features Norman Hunt - Tenor Sax, Big Tarp and Murray Campbell - Trumpets, Johnny Patrick - Piano
                                                    Full credit for 60 Let Me Go Lover is Patti Page with Jack Rael and his Orchestra
                                                    Full credit for 68 Blow The Wind Southerly is Kathleen Ferrier, contralto with Piano accompaniment by Phyllis Spurr (released in 1949)
                                                    Full credit for 68 Loving Machine is Wynonie Harris with Todd Rhodes and his Orchestra
                                                    Full credit for 68 Let Me Go Lover is Joan Weber with Orchestra under the direction of Jimmy Carroll
                                                    Full credit for 68 Let Me Go Lover is Humphrey Lyttelton & and His Band

                                                    There are 20 new entries this week. 13 are new to the charts and 5 are from new artists (though four of the artists have charted before on this chart: Howard Keel (& Brothers with the MGM Studio Orchestra conducted by Adolph Deutsch), Patrick O'Hagan with Roy Robertson and his Orchestra, Kathleen Ferrier, contralto with Piano accompaniment by Phyllis Spurr, Wynonie Harris with Todd Rhodes and his Orchestra). Howard Keel has never been on the singles chart BUT has charted on the albums chart.
                                                    The final new artist is The Kirchin Band (Basil & Ivor) [Features Norman Hunt - Tenor Sax, Big Tarp and Murray Campbell - Trumpets, Johnny Patrick – Piano]

                                                    There are 10 records with 26 multiple versions:
                                                    5 Mr Sandman (Dickie Valentine, The Four Aces, Max Bygraves, The Chordettes, Les Paul and Mary Ford)
                                                    4 Let Me Go Lover (Teresa Brewer, Peggy Lee, Patti Page, Joan Weber) – also this is the flipside to Dean Martin – The Naughty Lady of Shady Lane
                                                    3 The Naughty Lady of Shady Lane (Dean Martin, The Ames Brothers, Archie Bleyer)
                                                    2 Mambo Italiano (Rosemary Clooney, Dean Martin)
                                                    2 I Still Believe (Ronnie Hilton, Al Martino)
                                                    2 Happy Days and Lonely Nights (Suzi Miller, Frankie Vaughan)
                                                    2 Don’t Go to Strangers (Ronnie Harris, Al Martino)
                                                    2 A Blossom Fell (Dickie Valentine, Ronnie Hilton)
                                                    2 This Ole House (Rosemary Clooney, Billie Anthony)
                                                    2 Teach Me Tonight (Nat King Cole, DeCastro Sisters)
                                                    meaning there are 60 different records.

                                                    There are 15 artists with 34 tracks
                                                    3 Dickie Valentine (Finger of Suspicion, Mr Sandman, A Blossom Fell)
                                                    3 Dean Martin (Mambo Italiano, The Naughty Lady of Shady Lane, How Do You Speak To An Angel)
                                                    3 Bill Haley and his Comets (Shake Rattle and Roll, Rock Around The Clock, Dim Dim the Lights)
                                                    3 Ronnie Hilton (I Still Believe/Veni Vidi Vici, Don’t Go to Strangers, A Blossom Fell)
                                                    2 Rosemary Clooney (Mambo Italiano, This Ole House)
                                                    2 The Four Aces (Mr Sandman, It’s A Woman’s World)
                                                    2 Ruby Murray (Softly Softly, Hearbeat)
                                                    2 Mario Lanza (I’ll Walk With Gos/Beloved, Serenade/Drinking Song)
                                                    2 Nat King Cole (Hajji Baba/Unbelievable, Teach Me Tonight)
                                                    2 Al Martino (I Still Believe, Don’t Go To Strangers)
                                                    2 Ted Heath (Dig Deep (or Skin Deep?), Honey Love – Dennis Lotis with Ted Heath)
                                                    2 Humphrey Lyttelton (Ace in the Hole, Mezzy’s Tune)
                                                    2 Doris Day (If I Give My Heart to You, The Bluebells of Broadway)
                                                    2 Robert Wilson (The Northern Lights of Aberdeen, Here’s To The Gordons)
                                                    2 Wynonie Harris (Bloodshot Eyes, Lovin’ Machine)
                                                    meaning there are 57 different artists.
                                                    Last edited by braindeadpj; Tue October 4, 2022, 02:43. Reason: Added Don Cornell to longest on chart

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