The Definitive Combined Music Papers Chart 1955 - 1969

[Satchmo76]

And we can't be sure that RM used data from all its dealers to compile the chart.

[braindeadpj]

Yes ,that's true too - also not all dealers used are listed . Since MM has a smaller pool (at least until 1960) and they say that they were used to calculate the chart we can be fairly sure that all the MM listed ones were included.

[Satchmo76]

Does JG Windows in Newcastle get mentioned in any of the RM or MM dealer lists? They are still the biggest music shop in Newcastle and have been trading since 1908. I've seen their name in one of the dealer lists, possibly Record Mirror.

It's in MM on 21 Dec 1957. RM has no Newcastle store on that date that I can see but on 12 Sep 59 it uses C. Jeavons, 44-46 Pudding Chare, which today is a Pizzeria. Bob Dylan visited C. Jeavons in the film Don't Look Back:

https://popspotsnyc.com/pip_newcastle/index.html

[MrTibbs]

Does JG Windows in Newcastle get mentioned in any of the RM or MM dealer lists? They are still the biggest music shop in Newcastle and have been trading since 1908. I've seen their name in one of the dealer lists, possibly Record Mirror.

No Robbie that music shop hasn't had a mention yet.

In the chart I will be posting on Wednesday 48 dealers charts are mentioned. Record Mirror states it goes to great lengths to include record shops the length and breadth of the country but that isn't quite true.
Of the 48 dealers, 21 are in London, so almost half of the sample is London based. The other cities in the sample with number of stores submitting are :
Liverpool 1, Manchester 2, Glasgow, 2, Brighton 1, Edinburgh 1, Bristol 1, Plymouth 1, Bradford 1, Hull 1. So not a great representation from other cities.
The remaining 16 are from towns around England.
So all in all it is a very London dominated chart and not quite as thorough geographically as RM suggested.

[MrTibbs]

And we can't be sure that RM used data from all its dealers to compile the chart.

At most RM are printing 48 to 50 dealer charts in the paper But I reckon they are using about 10 to 15 more as the dealer chart just differs slightly from theirs.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

The Definitive Combined Music Papers Chart 1955 -1969

Welcome To The Chart Of All Charts

The Chart For Week Ending Saturday 14th April 1956

		THE DEFINITIVE MUSIC PAPERS CHART					Dealer Returns
CHART	CHART	BRITAIN'S BEST SELLING RECORDS					NME	RM	MM	Gallup	Inverse	Inverse
LAST	THIS	CHART BASED ON OVER 130 DEALER RETURNS					65	60	20	Points	Points	Chart
WEEK	WEEK	Chart For Week Ending Saturday 14th April 1956								Scored	Scored	Position
2	1	Poor People Of Paris - Winifred Atwell					1	1	2	4172.4	4330	1
1	2	It's Almost Tomorrow - The Dream Weavers					2	2	1	3240.0	4225	2
3	3	Rock And Roll Waltz - Kay Starr					3	3	3	2499.5	4060	3
5	4	Zambesi - Lou Busch					5	4	5	2023.9	3830	4
6	5	Only You - The Hilltoppers					4	6	6	1920.5	3755	5
4	6	Memories Are Made Of This - Dave King					6	5	4	1864.6	3725	6
8	7	Memories Are Made Of This - Dean Martin					7	7	8	1545.2	3460	7
7	8	See You Later Alligator - Bill Haley and His Comets					8	7	7	1504.4	3415	8
12	9	Theme From 'The Threepenny Opera' - The Dick Hyman Trio					9	9	15	1270.8	3070	9
10	10	The Great Pretender - Jimmy Parkinson					10	11	12	1169.1	2945	10
15	11	My September Love - David Whitfield					11	12	18	1058.8	2700	11
20	12	A Tear Fell - Teresa Brewer					18	10	10	1023.0	2525	12
9	13	Chain Gang - Jimmy Young					15	16	14	891.8	2280	13
16	14	Willie Can - Alma Cogan					13	14		850.3	2190	14
17	15	I'm A Fool - Slim Whitman					19	17	11	825.9	2020	15
NEW	16	You Can't Be True To Two - Dave King					25	12	13	825.2	1890	18
11	17	Band Of Gold - Don Cherry					17	18	19	786.3	1930	17
19	18	Rock Island Line - Lonnie Donegan					16	15		758.2	1935	16
13	19	Theme From 'The Threepenny Opera' - Billy Vaughn					12		9	663.7	1675	19
RE	20	Seven Days - Anne Shelton					24	19		559.7	1175	20
14	21	Zambesi - Eddie Calvert					14			428.8	1105	21
NEW	22	Nothin' To Do - Michael Holliday						20	19	391.1	900	22
18	23	Jimmy Unknown - Lita Roza					20			313.3	715	23
RE	24	The Trouble With Harry - Alfi and Harry					21			297.9	650	25
NEW	25	In A Little Spanish Town - Bing Crosby						20		289.2	660	24
NEW	26	No Other Love - The Johnston Brothers					22			283.7	585	26
NEW	27	The Italian Theme - Cyril Stapleton					23			267.7	520	27
RE	28	Pickin' A Chicken - Eve Boswell					26			230.8	325	28
NEW	29	Theme From 'The Threepenny Opera' - Louis Armstrong					27			221.2	260	31
RE	30	Young And Foolish - Edmund Hockridge					28			209.6	195	32
		Come Next Spring - Tony Bennett					29			200.5	130	33
		Willie Can - The Beverly Sisters					30			191.4	65	34
		The Great Pretender - Jackie Riggs							15	124.8	320	29
		The Ballad Of Davy Crockett - Bill Hayes							15	124.8	320	29
		* NME Compiled A Top Thirty From This Week

[MrTibbs]

As you can see from the above chart NME has now expanded to a Top 30 so the DCMP chart can now do likewise.

[braindeadpj]

Including what's known for the March 31st MM does make a few differences to the DCMPC, though of course it works against the unknown positions and so it is not truely accurate to include but FYI:
1. It's Almost Tomorrow - The Dream Weavers
2. Rock and Roll Waltz - Kay Starr
3 Poor People of Paris - Winifred Atwell
4 Zambesi - Lou Busch
5 Memories Are Made of This - Dean Martin
6 Only You - The Hilltoppers
7 Memories Are Made of This - Dave King
8 See You later Alligator - Bill Haley and his Comets
9 Chain Gang - Jimmy Young
10 The Great Pretender - Jimmy Parkinson
11 Band of Gold - Don Cherry
12 Theme from The Threepenny Opera - The Dick Hyman Trio (New entry on MM 7/4/1956)
13 Zambesi - Eddie Calvert (New Entry on MM 7/4/1956)
14 Jimmy Unknown - Lita Roza
15 Theme from The Threepenny Opera - Billy Vaughan (New entry on MM 7/4/1956)
16 Willie Can - Alma Cogan (could be 10,15,18,19 on MM - 10 would make it 14, 15,18,19 would make it 15)
17 Rock Island Line - Lonnie Donegan
18 I'm A Fool - Slim Whitman
19 Young and Foolish - Edmund Hockridge (could be at 10,15,18,19 on MM - any MM position would make it 17)
20 My September Love - David Whitfield

[Satchmo76]

The Platters' version of The Great Pretender doesn't chart until September despite it being released when it appeared in the film Rock Around The Clock, according to discogs

[Splodj]

12 Theme from The Threepenny Opera - The Dick Hyman Trio (could be at 10,15,18,19 on MM if 10 goes up to 10 other positions make no difference)?
13 Zambesi - Eddie Calvert (could be at 10,15,18,19 on MM - 10 would make it 12 (unless Dick Hyman is at any position in which case 13)
15 Theme from The Threepenny Opera - Billy Vaughan (could be 10,15,18,19 on MM - 10 would make it 13 unless Zambesi at 15 then 14)

These 3 were new entries in the 7-Apr MM chart so did not have any position.

[braindeadpj]

Ok thanks. I forget to check that. I only looked at those not on the 31st March chart (but were on the others). So its likely (but not definite) that 2 of the positions could be Young and Foolish - Edmund Hockridge and Willie Can - Alma Cogan, while the other 2 are records not in the top 20 of the DCMPC. Presumably MM doesn't show any re-entries that were not as far as has been recorded to help identify the other 2 records (do they even show re-entries)??
I updated the above to reflect this.

[MrTibbs]

Guys to explain the should I or shouldn't I have included the MM Last Week positions for 31st March.

The chart for 31st March based on Last Week positions is unreliable. It has 4 positions missing including one from the Top Ten so one fifth of the chart in total. Guessing what these missing positions were and where they placed is not only speculative but also does a disservice to the other charted records as it potentially affects then adversely if included in the averaging process. Such a chart would not be reliable. I may be right or I may be wrong but that's just how I see it.

Also the 7th April is the Official launch chart for MM. I believe the Last Week positions were possibly added for 'fun' rather than as firm substantiated chart positions based on a likely smaller trial chart sample. The fact that MM didn't identify what these missing 4 records were on the launch chart would seem to support this theory.

Robin's point on the end of year 'two week average' used when a chart is not compiled is a good and relevant one as I agree this is not an 'authentic' chart. But it is entered just for fun as a likely outcome but with the side note that it is not taken too seriously with a 'take it or leave it' approach.

All of that said these chart debates on threads are healthy and thoroughly enjoyable and are the life blood of UKMIX so keep the controversy coming . Much better than just posting and moving on.

[Splodj]

Brain - As discussed above, Hockridge is most likely for 10. Cogan hasn't entered MM yet so I think it is highly unlikely to have made an earlier appearance when it was a new entry in the other 2 charts but, as you say, MM would be unlikely to have described it as a re-entry anyway.

[kingofskiffle]

Agree completely Mr Tibbs. I do wonder now if I should include that in the database? You make a very good point and provide food for thought.

[braindeadpj]

The inclusion of the 31st March MM data was, as I stated, just for fun and is not to be taken seriously due to the missing positions as you (and I) have already stated. I agree that it should not be included in 'any' average chart unless the missing data can be found (which is unlikely as the official start for MM is the 7th April 1956).
Mr Tibbs, feel free to remove the post if you feel it is undermining things. It was just for fun and not to be taken seriously.

[braindeadpj]

My apologies for not noticing earlier, but you have With Your Love - Robert Earl as a re-entry on the 25th February chart, but this record does not appear to have charted before (Malcolm Vaughan's version charted previously).

[Splodj]

I don't think there is any disagreement here. The incomplete chart should not be included but it is fascinating to see what would have happened if they had been as a 'What if?' alternative, not as a challenge to the genuine article.

Personally I think it was jolly decent of MM to provide last week's positions on their first chart. Much better than nothing and infinitely better (a particular bug-bear of mine) than describing all of them as new entries.

[MrTibbs]

The inclusion of the 31st March MM data was, as I stated, just for fun and is not to be taken seriously due to the missing positions as you (and I) have already stated. I agree that it should not be included in 'any' average chart unless the missing data can be found (which is unlikely as the official start for MM is the 7th April 1956).
Mr Tibbs, feel free to remove the post if you feel it is undermining things. It was just for fun and not to be taken seriously.

Oh no brain I don't want it removed. It is an interesting post which instigated debate which I enjoy. Although not used it is nonetheless of historic interest and fits in well with the theme of the thread. Like I said above it is useful for questions to be asked and I certainly enjoy reading and commenting on all the opposing points of view.

I don't always get it right so where I get something wrong I like to be told. Like with Robert Earl above, now corrected

[braindeadpj]

Apologies for more late corrections;
3/12/1955 Cloudburst - Don Lang was a re-entry and not a new entry as it was also at 16 5/11/1955.
17/12/1955 Suddenly There's a Valley - Lee Lawrence was a re-entry and not a re-entry as it was at 19 3/12/1955

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Agree completely Mr Tibbs. I do wonder now if I should include that in the database? You make a very good point and provide food for thought.

Don't tell anyone, ha, but if given a vote, as a buyer of your many excellent books, I would vote to include the 31 March / last week info in the MM database. MM thought it was worthwhile, that's why they included it. There is no evidence the data is second rate. Typically with most new charts or methodologies, they do test charts for a number of weeks (months?), to check the process, to check the data, yada yada, then they launch the chart. If it's good enough for MM, it's good enough for me. Plus it's more historical data, another piece of the puzzle. The more the merrier I say. I seem to recall you may have used last weeks data for some other charts as well, thru one or more of your other historical books. Perhaps it'd be more factual to just use the known positions here, and not try to guess the unknown, I'm good with that. Them's the facts with no interpretation.

Think of it like this: include the data, indicate what is being done with a special note. Then those who don't like it can ignore it, and those who do like it can use it. Both camps are satisfied. Win-win. Groovy moovy !!

[MrTibbs]

I don't believe the data is second rate, it's useful as an indicator to the formal introduction of the MM chart proper the following week, but it's just incomplete for the purpose of the DCMP chart and therefore open to speculation with four records unaccounted for.

I agree that it was obviously a trial chart and I agree it was probably one of a run of these prior to launch of the chart proper. But as a trial chart it can't be considered as substantive as MM consider the chart of 7th April as their first official chart.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

The Definitive Combined Music Papers Chart 1955 -1969

Welcome To The Chart Of All Charts

The Chart For Week Ending Saturday 21st April 1956

		THE DEFINITIVE MUSIC PAPERS CHART					Dealer Returns
CHART	CHART	BRITAIN'S BEST SELLING RECORDS					NME	RM	MM	Gallup	Inverse	Inverse
LAST	THIS	CHART BASED ON OVER 130 DEALER RETURNS					65	60	20	Points	Points	Chart
WEEK	WEEK	Chart For Week Ending Saturday 21st April 1956								Scored	Scored	Position
1	1	Poor People Of Paris - Winifred Atwell					1	1	2	4172.4	4330	1
2	2	It's Almost Tomorrow - The Dream Weavers					3	2	1	2987.7	4160	2
3	3	Rock And Roll Waltz - Kay Starr					2	3	3	2751.8	4125	3
5	4	Only You - The Hilltoppers					4	4	4	2169.2	3915	4
4	5	Zambesi - Lou Busch					7	5	6	1732.9	3620	5
7	6	Memories Are Made Of This - Dean Martin					5	7	7	1723.8	3610	6
6	7	Memories Are Made Of This - Dave King					6	7	5	1682.3	3585	7
8	8	See You Later Alligator - Bill Haley and His Comets					8	6	9	1536.3	3435	8
11	9	My September Love - David Whitfield					8	9	12	1339.7	3195	9
9	10	Theme From 'The Threepenny Opera' - The Dick Hyman Trio					10	11	10	1190.9	2985	10
12	11	A Tear Fell - Teresa Brewer					11	13	8	1126.4	2840	11
16	12	You Can't Be True To Two - Dave King					18	10	14	985.4	2445	13
14	13	Willie Can - Alma Cogan					13	14	15	975.1	2510	12
NEW	14	No Other Love - Ronnie Hilton					15	12	19	950.7	2420	14
15	15	I'm A Fool - Slim Whitman					16	16	11	895.1	2275	15
29	16	Theme From 'The Threepenny Opera' - Louis Armstrong					14	15		803.1	2065	16
20	17	Seven Days - Anne Shelton					20	18		631.5	1495	18
10	18	The Great Pretender - Jimmy Parkinson					12		13	620.1	1595	17
19	19	Theme From 'The Threepenny Opera' - Billy Vaughn					17		16	484.3	1210	19
18	20	Rock Island Line - Lonnie Donegan					30	20		480.5	725	23
22	21	Nothin' To Do - Michael Holliday						16	17	467.1	1180	20
NEW	22	I'll Be Home - Pat Boone						19	18	411.7	980	21
NEW	23	Ain't Misbehavin' - Johnnie Ray					19			331.1	780	22
17	24	Band Of Gold - Don Cherry					20			313.3	715	24
13	25	Chain Gang - Jimmy Young					22			283.7	585	25
28	26	Pickin' A Chicken - Eve Boswell					23			267.7	520	26
NEW	27	Willie Can - The Beverly Sisters					24			254.1	455	27
21	28	Zambezi - Eddie Calvert					25			242.0	390	28
23	29	Jimmy Unknown - Lita Roza					26			230.8	325	29
NEW	30	Stewball - Lonnie Donegan					27			221.2	260	30
		In A Persian Market - Sammy Davis Jnr					28			209.6	195	32
		The Trouble With Harry - Alfi and Harry					29			200.5	130	33
		Juke Box Baby - Perry Como							20	96.4	220	31

[MrTibbs]

Apologies for more late corrections;
3/12/1955 Cloudburst - Don Lang was a re-entry and not a new entry as it was also at 16 5/11/1955.
17/12/1955 Suddenly There's a Valley - Lee Lawrence was a re-entry and not a re-entry as it was at 19 3/12/1955

Thanks brain, I have amended those 2 charts here to re-entries and on the master spreadsheet.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

The Definitive Combined Music Papers Chart 1955 -1969

Welcome To The Chart Of All Charts

The Chart For Week Ending Saturday 28th April 1956

		THE DEFINITIVE MUSIC PAPERS CHART					Dealer Returns
CHART	CHART	BRITAIN'S BEST SELLING RECORDS					NME	MM	RM	Gallup	Inverse	Inverse
LAST	THIS	CHART BASED ON OVER 130 DEALER RETURNS					65	27	60	Points	Points	Chart
WEEK	WEEK	Chart For Week Ending Saturday 28th April 1956								Scored	Scored	Position
1	1	Poor People Of Paris - Winifred Atwell					1	1	1	4560.0	4560	1
2	2	It's Almost Tomorrow - The Dream Weavers					2	3	2	3105.4	4381	2
3	3	Rock And Roll Waltz - Kay Starr					3	2	3	2725.0	4283	3
14	4	No Other Love - Ronnie Hilton					4	4	4	2273.9	4104	4
4	5	Only You - The Hilltoppers					5	6	5	1976.3	3925	5
11	6	A Tear Fell - Teresa Brewer					8	5	6	1710.7	3697	6
7	7	Memories Are Made Of This - Dave King					6	8	7	1683.9	3686	7
9	8	My September Love - David Whitfield					9	7	8	1479.5	3458	8
5	9	Zambesi - Lou Busch					7	10	10	1438.5	3387	9
6	10	Memories Are Made Of This - Dean Martin					10	9	9	1348.7	3279	10
8	11	See You Later Alligator - Bill Haley and His Comets					11	11	12	1164.4	2980	11
10	12	Theme From 'The Threepenny Opera' - The Dick Hyman Trio					12	17	11	1102.6	2813	12
12	13	You Can't Be True To two - Dave King					13	13	13	1062.7	2736	13
16	14	Theme From 'The Threepenny Opera' - Louis Armstrong					14	16	16	942.7	2410	14
13	15	Willie Can - Alma Cogan					15	18	15	923.0	2351	15
22	16	I'll Be Home - Pat Boone					19	14	14	905.1	2259	16
NEW	17	Lost John - Lonnie Donegan					16	20	17	852.0	2112	17
15	18	I'm A Fool - Slim Whitman					20	11	18	843.1	2035	18
23	19	Ain't Misbehavin' - Johnnie Ray					17		18	684.4	1690	19
NEW	20	Theme From 'Man With The Golden Arm' - Billy May					24	19	20	680.8	1439	20
18	21	The Great Pretender - Jimmy Parkinson					18	14		522.9	1304	21
19	22	Theme From 'The Threepenny Opera' - Billy Vaughn					28	20		339.8	492	25
17	23	Seven Days - Anne Shelton					20			313.3	715	22
RE	24	In A Little Spanish Town - Bing Crosby					22			283.7	585	23
27	25	Willie Can - The Beverly Sisters					23			267.7	520	24
20	26	Rock Island Line - Lonnie Donegan					25			242.0	390	26
28	27	Zambesi - Eddie Calvert					26			230.8	325	27
NEW	28	Innamorata - Dean Martin					27			221.2	260	28
NEW	29	Mountain Greenery - Mel Torme					29			200.5	130	29
NEW	30	Juke Box Baby - Perry Como					30			191.4	65	30
21	30	Nothin' To Do - Michael Holliday					30			191.4	65	30

[kingofskiffle]

Two Lonnie Donegan, as Lost John starts to chart