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URGENT HELP REQUIRED OCC / Billboard Chart Question 7 October 1979 - 9 October 1979 - 3 Day Chart

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  • URGENT HELP REQUIRED OCC / Billboard Chart Question 7 October 1979 - 9 October 1979 - 3 Day Chart

    Dear All

    I came across the following anomaly.

    On The OCC Chart it states the following

    OCC Chart - 7 October 1979 - 9 October 1979 ???

    -


    OCC 1.JPG

    -

    https://www.officialcharts.com/chart...19791007/7502/

    That would equate to a 3 day chart........ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Why did this occur?

    More so the OCC Chart 7 October 1979 - 9 October 1979 would mean the Billboard equivalent Chart be 13 October 1979
    [a four day difference between OCC and Billboard]. Is that correct?

    The week after chart was the following :

    OCC Chart date - 10 October 1979 - 13 October 1979. The Billboard equivalent Chart is week of 20 October 1979.
    [the beginning of the 7 day difference between OCC and Billboard] Is that correct?

    OCC a 4 day Chart!!!!.......

    -

    OCC 2.JPG

    -

    https://www.officialcharts.com/chart...19791010/7502/

    If the above is correct then the following should be true :

    The OCC Chart 30 September 1979 - 6 October 1979 would mean the Billboard equivalent Chart was also 6 October 1979 [an alignment between OCC and Billboard prior to these two short Charts] Is that correct?

    https://www.officialcharts.com/chart...19790930/7502/

    If anyone can help me understand this then I would truly appreciate their assistance.

    Now this is where it gets very interesting

    STOP THE PRESS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    However, I just noticed / checked the following. Which throws all that I just wrote out the door...oh my

    On OCC the following is stated

    7 October 1979 - 13 October 1979

    -

    OCC 3.JPG

    -

    https://www.officialcharts.com/chart...19791007/7501/

    I am absolutely confused, why is their a difference between Album Chart and Singles Chart dates????????

    Most respectfully

    Germanicus

  • #2
    It's because officially there are two album charts dated to 13 October 1979 and the OCC have used the above dates to be able to get both charts onto their database. Prior to 13 October 1979, the album chart was compiled on a Wednesday, which was too late for the chart to be included in the new issue of Music Week. It would appear in the following issue instead. As the charts were dated according to the Music Week issue in which they appeared it meant that the album chart for a given date (an example: 6 October 1979) covered a sales period of a fornight earlier. For 6 October 1979 this would be:

    Sales period: Monday 17 September to Saturday 22 September

    chart compiled on Wednesday 26 September

    Chart published in Music Week issue dated 6 October 1979

    On Wednesday 3 October an albums chart was compiled covering sales week 24 to 29 September. This would have appeared in Music Week issue dated 13 October 1979.

    However, then chart compiler BMRB had improved the computer system it used to compile the chart and it was now possible to produce an albums chart on a Tuesday (instead of a Wednesday) and which could therefore appear in the new issue of Music Week. The official chart dated 13 October 1979 was compiled on Tuesday 9 October and covered the sales period Monday 1 October to Saturday 6 October.

    This left the chart which had been compiled the previous week. Effectively there were two album charts which could be dated as 13 October 1979 and both appeared in the 13 October 1979 issue of Music Week. The OCC have simply changed the chart dates for both to ensure both can be included in their chart database.

    https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Mus...1979-10-13.pdf

    Comment


    • #3
      It is the same as the situation we discussed last week with Billboard. In 1957 they moved their publication date forward so there was only a 2 day gap, but the underlying sales survey cycle stayed the same.
      ('UK chart date to US chart date' thread)

      Publication dates can be misleading even when looking at one chart, let alone comparing different ones.

      So was there an occasion earlier with a long gap between OCC album chart publication dates? As far as I can see in the 60s RR did get its album charts calculated in time for that week's issue.
      Last edited by Splodj; Sun March 12, 2023, 09:42.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Splodj View Post
        It is the same as the situation we discussed last week with Billboard. In 1957 they moved their publication date forward so there was only a 2 day gap, but the underlying sales survey cycle stayed the same.
        ('UK chart date to US chart date' thread)

        Publication dates can be misleading even when looking at one chart, let alone comparing different ones.

        So was there an occasion earlier with a long gap between OCC album chart publication dates? As far as I can see in the 60s RR did get its album charts calculated in time for that week's issue.
        I think the problem was unique to the first 10 years of the BMRB era due to, initially, problems in the albums chart compilation process. I believe that the albums chart was compiled on time (and published in the current issue of Record Retailer) in the first few months that BMRB were compiling the chart but that due to a problem in the compilation process the album charts began to be published almost a week after they had been compiled from some point in summer 1969 and the practice of compiling the albums chart on a Tuesday afternoon / Wednesday morning continued until October 1979. I remember kingofskiffle highlighting one week in summer 1969 where there was a problem with the album chart and this may be when the delay of a week between compilation and publication began.

        Comment


        • #5
          Oh yes, I go into this in some detail in the Chart History section of my 1956-1969 Albums chart book ( https://www.thechartbook.co.uk/the-decade-series/volume-1-1956-1969/ ). The first few months of the BMRB chart in 1969 were massively problematic as far as compilation goes.

          15 Feb 1969 - The first BMRB chart is produced. A Top 15 album chart was produced (down from a Top 40 the week before!) with Breakers ranked A-O in alphabetical order. A Budget chart also appeared, again a Top 15 and again with 15 breakers ranked A-O. What the British Market Research Bureau did was create a Top 120 chart of all price albums and supplied this to the BBC and others. Record Retailer separated this out and published the Full Price albums as the main chart and kept others with a defined dealer price as Budget releases. So it was Record Retailer who were deciding - it appears - on what the chart should look like (and you won't find that in the chart books!)

          For the weeks of 22 Feb and 1 Mar (so for three weeks) a Singles and Albums chart is printed properly in RR.

          However, on 8 March no budget chart appears and instead we have one listing of 30 records. The chart had no splitting into the usual Budget and Full Price charts. This chart comprised no week counts (as Record Retailer usually supplied) and listed last week positions that did not correspond to either of the two printed charts in the previous edition. It seems as if the chart was rushed.

          This is my view on what happened:

          British Market Research Bureau had to manually tally the diaries for both singles and albums. Their staff where unable to accurately compile both charts by the Tuesday deadline, instigated because the BBC counted down the new chart on a Tuesday lunchtime and Record Retailer was published on a Thursday and so needed the chart by Tuesday for typesetting and then Wednesday printing. The album chart was of secondary importance to the singles chart and so was compiled afterwards. The supposition is that it was compiled on Wednesdays, although this is pure conjecture and may not be the case. The Singles chart was always the chart which was published for the immediately preceding week, while, from this point forward, the album chart was always for the week before the same Singles chart. Thus if an issue contained the Singles chart dated week ending 22 Mar and cover a sales period for 9-15 Mar, diaries posted 16 Mar, received 17 Mar, compiled 18 Mar and published 20 Mar, then the Album in the same issue would be dated week ending 22 Mar but cover a period for 2-8 Mar, diaries posted 9-11 Mar, compiled from 13 or 14 Mar. This would be apparent from 1973 onwards when Music Week, as the publication became renamed, when the Album chart carried the legend "Charts cover week ending xxx" after them. Thus in the issue for 24 November 1973 the charts covering week ending 10 November were published, together with singles charts for week ending 17 November (the date being the end of the sales period at this time). It would be October 1979 before the charts where again for the same period.

          So what happened on 8 March 1969? Well, again conjecture but informed conjecture, leads to the belief that three weeks of compiling the charts each week had led to a fraught situation at BMRB and so the singles chart was prioritised and the album chart arrived, in week 4, too late to be split by the Record Retailer chart manager. As such, it was carried un-edited. The following weeks chart is identical to this weeks chart, but correctly split into "Top Albums" and "Budget LPs". It can be seen in the published magazine as the week counts are simply one more than the chart of 1 March which supports this theory.

          Guinness Hit's Of The Sixties used the original 8 March chart in their book, leading to the odd situation of the album "Four And Only Seekers" having an entire chart career consisting of 1 week at the top of the chart and then nothing else. However, it is more usual now to list that week as 'frozen'.

          In June the chart increased to a Top 20, then briefly a Top 40 as the breakers section is variously listed as 21-40 and then breakers and then listed alphabetically again. A week in August sees a Top 32 (!) and then we have the other piece of research I unearthed looking through these.

          4 and 11 Oct 1969 as printed and listed in places like the OCC website are wrong (not intentionally by the way).

          This is another example of a chart printing error, and both weeks are combined due to the complexity of the error here.

          On 11 October Record Retailer published a Top 15 Bargain LPs chart and a Top 25 Top Albums chart. That chart, when linked with the previous weeks, shows that the 4 October chart, as published in Record Retailer, is simply an amalgamation of the two charts published the following week. Pure conjecture indicates that the chart was supplied from the British Market Research Bureau, as usual, by the end of the week and was simply printed in error. The major point which corroborates this is the last week positions and the week counts on the printed chart. On the printed chart for 27 September, for example, The Sound Of Music Soundtrack is listed as being at number 13, with a week count of 228 weeks. On the next printed chart of 4 October this album has a last week position of 6 and a week count of 230. On 11 October the printed chart shows no last week positions, but does have for this album a week count of 230 weeks.

          Comparing the charts as printed in Record Retailer with those in Record Mirror, and taking the last week positions as listed on 4 October in Record Retailer, show that Record Mirror printed the correct chart for 4 October. This includes a new number 1 album, not previously shown, for the Rolling Stones and, unfortunately, one less week at number 1 for the Beatles, as Abbey Road, the number 1 on the listed chart, now has it’s correct number 1 week count.

          11 Oct 1969 - Top 25 album chart printed in Record Retailer. Chart bears the legend “Compiled for Record Retailer from a panel of 300 record shops by British Market Research Bureau. RR only includes in this chart albums recommended for sale at full price.” Also, a Top 15 Bargain LP chart is printed. Chart bears the legend “Compiled for Record Retailer from a panel of 300 record shops by British Market Research Bureau. RR only includes in this chart samplers and albums recommended for sale at intermediate prices. Budget records are excluded from the chart.” Both charts this week had no last week positions but they did include week counts that tally with the previous weekly charts that combined both of these issues.​​​​​
          http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
          Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

          Comment


          • #6
            Wow wow wow Robbie, Splodj and kingofskiffle

            I am very appreciative, as we all should be here on UKMIX, to have experience people such as yourselves.

            The information that you both supplied is informative and pure quality.

            Thank you very, very much.

            I am so pleased to read what you wrote.

            I am so happy to know that not only have you educated me with this information and and that OCC has recorded this momemt.

            I appreciate your help.

            I will look out for the 1969 incident as higlighted by kingofskiffle

            I will re-adjust my data to use the one date yet acknowledge this moment as recorded by OCC.

            I am truly grateful for your assistance

            Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. Wow.

            Most respectfully

            Germanicus

            PS I truly acknowledge your response Splodj... yes indeed what we discussed as always my friend.

            Thank you very much.

            Robbie and kingofskiffle what can I say. I am blown away. Thank you. Brilliant.

            Comment


            • #7
              The OCC website album chart for 2-Mar-69 is an exact copy of the previous week's chart. So I suppose their answer to my question is that this is when there was a longer (2 week) gap. A comment at the bottom (on behalf of OCC?) says this is a correction of the "original erroneous" RR chart. (The following week Cream comes in at number one.)

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks for your informative answer kingofskiffle. I didn't realise it was as early as the 3rd BMRB chart (2 March 1969) that was affected by chart compilation / publishing issues. It has to be said the albums chart in 1969 was something of a mess.

                I think BMRB continued to produce a weekly top 120 overall albums list well into the 1970s, perhaps as late as May 1978. In 1975 / 1976 Record Mirror did occasionally print "last week" positions below the 60 position size of the albums chart that appeared in Music Week (RM continued to publish a top 50 until December 1978). For example, the Various Artist album 'Supersonic', at #35 on the 06/12/75 chart, has a LW position of #93. In the same chart 'The Last Record Album' by Little Feat is at #36, up from #65.

                Comment


                • #9
                  It might have helped clear up the mess if they had been consistent in their definitions. I believe first they described mid-range as budget, then they had a real budget chart, then went back to describing mid-range as budget.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think the 'they' here was led by RR and what they printed.
                    http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                    Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yes, so why doesn't OCC show the Record Mirror album charts for this period? They would be able to double it to a Top 30 and have a bone fide chart for 2-Mar-69.

                      Although suppose as RM were also a week behind they also had a long gap somewhere.
                      Last edited by Splodj; Sun March 12, 2023, 14:35.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Actually, the RM chart as a Top 30 was the same top 15 and a breakers chart, sometimes in alphabetical order, sometimes not. I've not researched properly the RM gaps, but they always missed around Easter anyway, although it is thanks to RM I have found that missing chart for 4 Oct 69.
                        http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                        Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I've never noticed that alphabetical aspect. But yes, looking closely at the RM album chart, positions 16+ are often in title alphabetical order. So you have a record at a position that is misleading, going up or down a number of places that is even more misleading!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            With regards the October 1979 album charts, I remember listening to the album chart countdown every week on Radio 1 and being totally confused one week with the positions. Suspect that would have been due to the correction of dates making the more updated chart being available for the radio show. Vague memories, but I do recall it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hello My UKMIX Family

                              It is interesting to note that on DATABASE DREAMS

                              The Album Charts for this period is covered as such

                              -

                              OCC 4.JPG
                              -

                              https://www.databasedreams.co.uk/cha...a=weekly;loc=1

                              6 October 1979 Album Chart

                              12 October 1979 Album Chart

                              13 October 1979 Album Chart

                              20 October 1979 Album Chart

                              The OCC singles Chart is as standard

                              6 October 1979 Singles Chart

                              13 October 1979 Singles Chart

                              20 October 1979 Singles Chart

                              OCC 5.JPG

                              I would believe that the DATABASE DREAMS is officially approved by the OCC.

                              Which would add to the confusion for a novice [like me] in relation to the OCC Album Charts.

                              This is projecting only 1 extra Album Chart between 30 September 1979 - 6 October 1979 to 14 October 1979 -
                              20 October 1979 by presenting that period in between as simply a one off 12 October 1979 Album Chart.

                              AN ALBUM CHART representing 7 October 1979 - 12 October 1979 ????????? [a 6 day Chart]


                              Yet as we know [well I didn't, yet now I do] that there was 2 [two] Album Charts - 7 October 1979 - 9 October 1979
                              & 10 October 1979 - 13 October 1979 for the period between weekending 6 October 1979 and weekending
                              13 October 1979

                              The following week being 14 October 1979 - 20 October 1979 as per OCC format.

                              Comments please My Friends?

                              Most respectfully

                              Germanicus

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                This is the link to the Music Week with explanation on front page. I remember reading about this after my confusion at the time.

                                Music-Week-1979-10-13.pdf

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  It's just a personal thing for me, but I take no notice of anything on the OCC website. In my opinion they have tried to rewrite chart history.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Music Week of 13-Oct-79 says printing that week's album chart "has been made possible through the co-operation of chart compilers BMRB and our printers... ". I cannot see where it says that BMRB are compiling their chart a day earlier.

                                    On Thursday 17th April 1978 at 6pm Radio 1 started featuring a rundown of the new album chart during their drivetime show. This continued to be on a Thursday until 18th November 1982. Then the following week the rundown changed to Wednesday - i.e. from 24th November 1982. Isn't this more likely to be the date that BMRB produced their album chart a day earlier?

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      BankCottage - Could it be that what you are remembering is an expectation not to see the chart you just heard in Music Week and then seeing it there?

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Just an aside that Database Dreams is not, as far as I know, affiliates in any way with the official charts company.

                                        this comes down to how you date the chart. The chart dated 13 October is for sales ending 6 days prior. The immediately preceding chart in sequence (dated 12th, 9th etc) is that which matches the same sales period as the singles chart dated 6 October and as such is for sale sending 6 days prior to that date.

                                        BMRB would have been trying to get both charts done earlier as the industry would want them earlier. I’d imagine that 1978 would have been test charts of the speed but by 1979 they would be in a position to do it properly. I think that also corresponded with an increase in sample size and of course chart size for singles meaning that they would have had more budget and more staff and more robust systems for speed.
                                        http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                        Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                                        Comment


                                        • #21
                                          Is there any reliable evidence that they provided their album chart a day earlier in 1979? Or is it just an assumption made from Music Week saying they can provide that week's chart because of co-operation between BMRB and their printers. My reading of that is BMRB provided it to the printers directly without going via Music Week, not that they produced it earlier.

                                          Or to pose the question another way, is there any reason why the BBC would not present their rundown of the new chart a day earlier in 1979 if BMRB had produced it a day earlier then?

                                          Comment


                                          • #22
                                            I think a lot is supposition. In 1978 BMRB got more shops for the panel and a new contract, so could allow them to staff up. Computers were also getting better. I know that for a few months before they changed to Sunday production, form Monday, Gallup produced the charts on a Sunday to ensure they actually could, but Radio 1 still presented it on a Tuesday rather than the Monday. Equally, in 2004/2005 Radio 1 presented the Download chart on a Wednesday evening, and once this was moved back to being compiled on a Sunday with the rest, ChartsPlus had to publish after Wednesday 6pm - contractually - even though we got the chart earlier in the week.

                                            You are right that I know of no reliable evidence that it was produced earlier. Everything comes from that single article, as to the fact that albums were now produced in time, but that could be down to better computers or more staff or both.

                                            And contracts, or possibly potential issues over the exact time the chart arrived could also affect when Radio 1 did the rundown - they would need it guaranteed at a set time each week to make it work.
                                            http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                            Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                                            Comment


                                            • #23
                                              Record Mirror was a week late in publishing the freshly compiled albums chart rather than the one compiled the previous week and in RM issue dated 20 October 1979 printed the following:

                                              THIS WEEK Record Mirror’s UK Album chart comes up to date. Previously the chart was printed a week late. This was due to printing schedules and the time to compute the chart. This week the chart printed on page 46 is the new up to date chart computed from last week’s sales. But in order not to Interrupt continuity the chart based on sales for week ending on October 6 is printed below.

                                              Tony Jasper's "The 70s: A Book Of Records" (published in 1980) includes an article on how the charts are compiled. It states that the album charts were produced on a Tuesday afternoon.

                                              I have read that prior to October 1979 the new album chart wasn't available until a Wednesday morning. The album chart was always compiled after the singles chart compilation process had completed, which meant that work on compiling the album chart didn't begin until a Tuesday afternoon. The main difference is presumably that by the end of 1979 the actual process, including security checks, was able to complete in a much shorter time frame.

                                              Comment


                                              • #24
                                                Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post
                                                Just an aside that Database Dreams is not, as far as I know, affiliates in any way with the official charts company.
                                                You are correct kingofskiffle i only put the banners there as they link to the occ as credits for charts, I'll have to have some new ones built as didnt think of the possibility of visitors thinking we were affiliated to the OCC which we are NOT

                                                Comment


                                                • #25
                                                  Originally posted by MickJav View Post

                                                  You are correct kingofskiffle i only put the banners there as they link to the occ as credits for charts, I'll have to have some new ones built as didnt think of the possibility of visitors thinking we were affiliated to the OCC which we are NOT
                                                  My respects for your comments MickJav and no disinformation intended.

                                                  I truly enjoy and appreciate the website.

                                                  Thank you for your input.

                                                  I did send a PM to Database Dreams about this very Post

                                                  Most respectfully

                                                  Germanicus

                                                  Comment

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