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  • Dave, is the 880,000 total for 'Mistletoe And Wine' the overall sales of the single rather than what it sold in 1988 alone? That said, its 1989 sales were probably modest. Do we know why Cliff has previously stated that the single was a million seller? I remember him appearing on "This Morning" years ago (I think it was in either 1991 or 1992) and claiming it was a million seller but I don't know if he meant it was a UK million seller or perhaps that is what it sold worldwide.

    Have you deliberately left off 'Especially For You' from the 1988 end of year list or have you overlooked it? What were both its 1988 and 1989 sales? This seems to be one record that has had its sales seriously overestimated by Alan Jones or at least by Gallup. Its total sales for the 80s has been given as being about 950,000 (?) but this doesn't seem to be borne out by looking at its 1988 and 1989 sales on the year end Gallup chart. I think even Peter Waterman claimed at some point in 1989 it was close to being a million seller. I wonder if he was referring to shipments and not over the counter sales?

    Also how many copies did 'Reet Petite' sell in 1986 alone? Perhaps about 200,000 or so?

    Finally, is the 1986 chart (minus Jackie Wilson) the same end of year chart that was broadcast on Channel 4's "The Chart Show"? I have a feeling they used the Network (MRIB) Chart at the time.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Robbie
      Dave, is the 880,000 total for 'Mistletoe And Wine' the overall sales of the single rather than what it sold in 1988 alone? That said, its 1989 sales were probably modest. Do we know why Cliff has previously stated that the single was a million seller? I remember him appearing on "This Morning" years ago (I think it was in either 1991 or 1992) and claiming it was a million seller but I don't know if he meant it was a UK million seller or perhaps that is what it sold worldwide.

      Have you deliberately left off 'Especially For You' from the 1988 end of year list or have you overlooked it? What were both its 1988 and 1989 sales? This seems to be one record that has had its sales seriously overestimated by Alan Jones or at least by Gallup. Its total sales for the 80s has been given as being about 950,000 (?) but this doesn't seem to be borne out by looking at its 1988 and 1989 sales on the year end Gallup chart. I think even Peter Waterman claimed at some point in 1989 it was close to being a million seller. I wonder if he was referring to shipments and not over the counter sales?

      Also how many copies did 'Reet Petite' sell in 1986 alone? Perhaps about 200,000 or so?

      Finally, is the 1986 chart (minus Jackie Wilson) the same end of year chart that was broadcast on Channel 4's "The Chart Show"? I have a feeling they used the Network (MRIB) Chart at the time.
      Especially for you, will be covered under 1989. "Mistletoe & Wine" is one of those points in vain of what Graham (so truly said). It sold more in those many a shop not surveyed by Gallup. MRIB upped their multiplier to 20 for 1988. I don't think this was needed, so I've reverted it to 18. It shipped a million (without question). The 880,000 is the December/January 88/89 total sale, to a x18 for MRIB. Gallup went to a 17 in 1988. So, their calculation puts Cliff on just 755,000. This would of been 800,000 on an 18. The shipped figure, reminds me of Blondie in 1979. "Heart Of Glass" only sold 850,000 in 1979, but had shipped a million.

      "Reet Petite" is split differently for MRIB. The Gallup chart of 1987, starts on w/k ending 16th Jan. MRIB's starts on w/k ending 9th Jan. So, Gallup sales 397,800 of Reet Petite in 1986. While MRIB sales 250,000 in 1986, but the 715,000 is largely the same for both charts. The 1986 chart is not dis-similar to the one featured on Channel 4, but that included the Network Chart airplay, while I've not used any airplay. The airplay factor was just used to forecast Friday & Saturday sales & make the chart look more, like Gallup's, but be ahead of the game. And it was a "game" in gimmick form.

      Comment


      • I have a Dafydd Rees, Barry Lazell & Luke Crampton book that puts Pet Shop Boys West End Girls at over 700,000. I'm pretty sure they use MRIB figures?..

        Comment


        • Originally posted by fiesta
          I have a Dafydd Rees, Barry Lazell & Luke Crampton book that puts Pet Shop Boys West End Girls at over 700,000. I'm pretty sure they use MRIB figures?..
          That's the 20 multiplier in force again for MRIB. I think that book also states, that "Reet Petite" is also above "Never Gonna Give You Up" in the small print. In contrast, they've used 18 for 1987 & 20 for 1986. That's down to the person, that put all years together in a biggest sellers of the 80s form. It doesn't matter what multiplier is used for an individual year, but when they are put together in a decade, it fulls apart. It's not correct to just keep the chart, to panel sales & it doesn't carry to well, if the figures are converted, either. The multiplier should be based up or down, to the number of shops surveyed, but even that may not be the same every week. It does even more amazing things, if it's changed between 2 years. All the records in the chart in December, increase (or decrease) for January....And then what formula can you use, for a complete multiplied sales figure? Quite ridiculous.

          Record Business based the chart on 300 a week & so did MRIB (supposebly). But increased the multipliers considerably. So, in the same style of compilataion, a record selling 350,000 in 1980, actually sold 700,000 in 1985's standards. Going by those calculations "Don't You Want Me" really sold over 2 million during 1981/82! Which is probably more realistic in turns of what Graham's been trying to point out & really, sales are quite meaningless & not so interesting or important as people think.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Robbie
            Dave, is the 880,000 total for 'Mistletoe And Wine' the overall sales of the single rather than what it sold in 1988 alone? That said, its 1989 sales were probably modest. Do we know why Cliff has previously stated that the single was a million seller? I remember him appearing on "This Morning" years ago (I think it was in either 1991 or 1992) and claiming it was a million seller but I don't know if he meant it was a UK million seller or perhaps that is what it sold worldwide.
            Maybe Cliff was being led by MRIB which (and I think everyone accepts they got it wrong) put M & W as the #12 single for the 80s decade and claimed it was his second UK-only million seller.

            The Channel 5 list of Best Selling Christmas Singles in the UK based on figures supplied by the OCC to the end of September 2100 had it on 865k. Presumably since Gallup took all their information with them when they lost the chart contract they would have based their total on figures supplied by the record company plus downloads?

            Although it is by no means the biggest selling Christmas record it often makes the top 200 chart in December and has even made the top 75. It was top 200 in both 2011 and 2012 shifting 5/6k each year which would put its current total at 875/880k.

            While Cliff isn't a prolific seller on download M&W must be his biggest selling one which probably means that the OCC 865k has probably less than 800k pre-Download.

            Comment


            • Dave, if you were using figures over twp years for some records and Chain Reaction continued to sell to the end of the decade what period does the 665k figure quoted for 1986 cover or what were its sales for the decade?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rubcale
                Originally posted by Robbie
                Dave, is the 880,000 total for 'Mistletoe And Wine' the overall sales of the single rather than what it sold in 1988 alone? That said, its 1989 sales were probably modest. Do we know why Cliff has previously stated that the single was a million seller? I remember him appearing on "This Morning" years ago (I think it was in either 1991 or 1992) and claiming it was a million seller but I don't know if he meant it was a UK million seller or perhaps that is what it sold worldwide.
                Maybe Cliff was being led by MRIB which (and I think everyone accepts they got it wrong) put M & W as the #12 single for the 80s decade and claimed it was his second UK-only million seller.

                The Channel 5 list of Best Selling Christmas Singles in the UK based on figures supplied by the OCC to the end of September 2100 had it on 865k. Presumably since Gallup took all their information with them when they lost the chart contract they would have based their total on figures supplied by the record company plus downloads?

                Although it is by no means the biggest selling Christmas record it often makes the top 200 chart in December and has even made the top 75. It was top 200 in both 2011 and 2012 shifting 5/6k each year which would put its current total at 875/880k.

                While Cliff isn't a prolific seller on download M&W must be his biggest selling one which probably means that the OCC 865k has probably less than 800k pre-Download.
                Though they might not of got it wrong entirely. They may have had the multiplier to high (which makes sense) & Gallup may have had their's too low. Alan Jones constantly makes reference to this 18 in his yearly end points system (1985 to 87) but no reference is made to anything in his 1988 & 1989 reports. They just use figures, where (apparently) every 1pt is equal to 1000. No multiplier is stated. A reference to 17 is constantly stated by everybody, which included Gallup. Graham's " 3 Tins of beans" is a good explaination. No 2 shops could ever sell the same amounts.

                "Chain Reaction" & it's MRIB 865,000 also includes the 87 - 89 sales. Like we've said Diana would not of sold, the same amounts in total in Independant shops.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by davetaylor
                  1988
                  01 MISTLETOE & WINE - CLIFF RICHARD 880,000
                  02 ONLY WAY IS UP - YAZZ & THE PLASTIC POPULATION 654,000
                  03 I SHOULD BE SO LUCKY - KYLIE MINOGUE 652,000
                  04 I THINK WE'RE ALONE NOW - TIFFANY 584,000
                  05 CRACKERS INTERNATIONAL E.P. - ERASURE 580,000
                  06 FIRST TIME - ROBIN BECK 547,000
                  07 NOTHING'S GONNA CHANGE MY LOVE FOR YOU - GLENN MADEIROS 531,000
                  08 A GROOVY KIND OF LOVE - PHIL COLLINS (not a mrib #1) 520,000
                  I was going to mention that MRIB were, in effect, using a higher multiplier here than Gallup. The Gallup figure for A Groovy Kind Of Love was 477.000 to the end of January 1989 (I have the panel sales), which seems realistic for a single that didn't get a gold certification for 500,000 shipped - and Virgin were very good at certifying.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by davetaylor
                    Originally posted by fiesta
                    I have a Dafydd Rees, Barry Lazell & Luke Crampton book that puts Pet Shop Boys West End Girls at over 700,000. I'm pretty sure they use MRIB figures?..
                    That's the 20 multiplier in force again for MRIB. I think that book also states, that "Reet Petite" is also above "Never Gonna Give You Up" in the small print. In contrast, they've used 18 for 1987 & 20 for 1986. That's down to the person, that put all years together in a biggest sellers of the 80s form. It doesn't matter what multiplier is used for an individual year, but when they are put together in a decade, it fulls apart. It's not correct to just keep the chart, to panel sales & it doesn't carry to well, if the figures are converted, either. The multiplier should be based up or down, to the number of shops surveyed, but even that may not be the same every week. It does even more amazing things, if it's changed between 2 years. All the records in the chart in December, increase (or decrease) for January....And then what formula can you use, for a complete multiplied sales figure? Quite ridiculous.

                    Record Business based the chart on 300 a week & so did MRIB (supposebly). But increased the multipliers considerably. So, in the same style of compilataion, a record selling 350,000 in 1980, actually sold 700,000 in 1985's standards. Going by those calculations "Don't You Want Me" really sold over 2 million during 1981/82! Which is probably more realistic in turns of what Graham's been trying to point out & really, sales are quite meaningless & not so interesting or important as people think.
                    You don't need to change the multiplier when you change the number of shops surveyed. All you need to do is keep the standard panel the same size, as Gallup did with 250 shops.

                    Panel sales were calculated from the sample on a cell-by-cell basis, but in simple terms if they sampled 125 shops they would need to multiply these by 2 to get panel sales. If the next week they sampled 500 shops they would need to halve the sample sales to get that week's panel sales. I had assumed MRIB worked the same way.

                    As a result of this the multiplier only changes if the relationship between the standard panel and overall market changes significantly, which shouldn't happen from month to month, unless there were pop-up shops, or existing shops selling music in December only. It would only be necessary if significant parts of the market were lost to closure or suddenly opened up and this change was not reflected in the sample, or there was a significant revision of what types of shop were in the sample.

                    If MRIB's panel was 300 shops these must have been generally selling a lower proportion of the market than Gallup's for a higher multiplier to be needed to estimate for what was same overall market for both of them.

                    The reason the BMRB multipliers of the early 1980s were low was because the standard panel was larger (450 shops by 1981 I think) in their reporting.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by davetaylor
                      Originally posted by rubcale
                      Originally posted by Robbie
                      Dave, is the 880,000 total for 'Mistletoe And Wine' the overall sales of the single rather than what it sold in 1988 alone? That said, its 1989 sales were probably modest. Do we know why Cliff has previously stated that the single was a million seller? I remember him appearing on "This Morning" years ago (I think it was in either 1991 or 1992) and claiming it was a million seller but I don't know if he meant it was a UK million seller or perhaps that is what it sold worldwide.
                      Maybe Cliff was being led by MRIB which (and I think everyone accepts they got it wrong) put M & W as the #12 single for the 80s decade and claimed it was his second UK-only million seller.

                      The Channel 5 list of Best Selling Christmas Singles in the UK based on figures supplied by the OCC to the end of September 2100 had it on 865k. Presumably since Gallup took all their information with them when they lost the chart contract they would have based their total on figures supplied by the record company plus downloads?

                      Although it is by no means the biggest selling Christmas record it often makes the top 200 chart in December and has even made the top 75. It was top 200 in both 2011 and 2012 shifting 5/6k each year which would put its current total at 875/880k.

                      While Cliff isn't a prolific seller on download M&W must be his biggest selling one which probably means that the OCC 865k has probably less than 800k pre-Download.
                      Though they might not of got it wrong entirely. They may have had the multiplier to high (which makes sense) & Gallup may have had their's too low. Alan Jones constantly makes reference to this 18 in his yearly end points system (1985 to 87) but no reference is made to anything in his 1988 & 1989 reports. They just use figures, where (apparently) every 1pt is equal to 1000. No multiplier is stated. A reference to 17 is constantly stated by everybody, which included Gallup. Graham's " 3 Tins of beans" is a good explaination. No 2 shops could ever sell the same amounts.
                      I have enough panel sales figures from 1988 and 1989 to know that Alan's figures in Record Mirror for these years used 17 as the multiplier. Also, in 1988 the Gallup weekly reports began to state that 17 was their recommended multiplier for singles, and 20 was recommended for albums.

                      An earlier post in this topic refers to Gallup's methodology for ensuring that the sample produced an accurate sales picture for the sectors of the market that were in the sample.

                      Comment


                      • 1989 (Mike Robinson's figures in brackets & Airplay now removed)
                        01 ESPECIALLY FOR YOU - KYLIE MINOGUE & JASON DONOVAN 868,000
                        02 RIDE ON TIME - BLACK BOX 845,000
                        03 SWING THE MOOD - JIVE BUNNY 820,000
                        04 TOO MANY BROKEN HEARTS - JASON DONOVAN 580,000 (493,000)
                        05 ETERNAL FLAME - BANGLES 545,000 (463,250)
                        06 SOMETHING'S GOTTEN HOLD OF MY HEART - MARC ALMOND/GENE PITNEY 500,000 (425,000)
                        07 HAND ON YOUR HEART - KYLIE MINOGUE 490,000 (416,500)
                        08 BACK TO LIFE - SOUL II SOUL 449,000 (381,650)
                        09 DO THEY KNOW IT'S CHRISTMAS - BAND AID II 448,000 (380,000)
                        10 FERRY 'CROSS THE MERSEY - VARIOUS 447,000 (379,000)
                        11 THAT'S WHAT I LIKE - JIVE BUNNY 444,000 (377,400)
                        12 ALL AROUND THE WORLD - LISA STANSFIELD 436,000 (362,100)
                        13 LIKE A PRAYER - MADONNA 410,000 (350,000)
                        14 LET'S PARTY - JIVE BUNNY (not a mrib #1) 400,000 (340,000)
                        15 LOVE CHANGES EVERYTHING - MICHAEL BALL 395,000 (335,750)
                        16 LIVING YEARS - MIKE & THE MECHANICS (a mrib #1) 365,000 (315,000)
                        17 YOU'LL NEVER STOP ME LOVING YOU - SONIA 345,000 (310,000)
                        18 RIGHT STUFF - NEW KIDS ON THE BLOCK 344,000 (309,000)
                        19 THIS TIME I KNOW IT'S FOR REAL - DONNA SUMMER 344,000 (309,000)
                        20 I WOULDN'T CHANGE A THING - KYLIE MINOGUE 341,000 (306,000)
                        21 DON'T KNOW MUCH - LINDA RONSTADT & AARON NEVILLE 315,000 (305,000)
                        22 MISS YOU LIKE CRAZY - NATALIE COLE 314,000 (304,000)
                        23 PUMP UP THE JAM - TECHNOTRONIC 310,000 (300,000)
                        24 REQUIEM - LONDON BOYS 289,000 (300,000 Released in December 1988)
                        25 IF ONLY I COULD - SYDNEY YOUNGBLOOD 310,000 (300,000)
                        26 SEALED WITH A KISS - JASON DONOVAN 300,000 (290,000)
                        27 BALLAD OF THE STREETS E.P. - SIMPLE MINDS 298,000 (288,000)
                        28 IF YOU DON'T KNOW ME BY NOW - SIMPLY RED (a mrib #1) 296,000 (286,000)
                        29 RIGHT HERE WAITING - RICHARD MARX 295,000 (285,000)
                        30 GIRL I'M GONNA MISS YOU - MILLI VANILLI 285,000
                        31 WHEN YOU COME BACK TO ME - JASON DONOVAN 283,000
                        32 STRAIGHT UP - PAULA ABDUL 284,000
                        33 FRENCH KISS - LIL' LOUIS 283,000
                        34 GOOD LIFE - INNER CITY 276,000
                        35 STOP - SAM BROWN 275,000
                        36 LONDON NIGHTS - LONDON BOYS 274,000
                        37 TIME WARP - DAMIAN 267,000 (over 1987 t0 1989)
                        38 LOVE TRAIN - HOLLY JOHNSON 259,000
                        39 YOU GOT IT - ROY ORBISON 258,000
                        40 HELP - BANANARAMA/FRENCH & SAUNDERS 255,000

                        So, we've got the ongoing trend of SAW. Those Independant shops loved it. Makes a mess of old Gezza's threads, elsewhere for instance! Here's the tricky bit. How to explain "Especially For You"? Well. the rest of these figures indicate MRIB (again) switched multipliers over the 2 years 1988 to 1989. Looks like 18 was used by MRIB for 1989. 26000 panel sales in 1988 & 22222 in 1989. The most you can get is 920,000 by using 20 all the way. The most "Mistletoe & Wine" could of got is 978,000 across those years going to higher multipliers. Alan Jones has "Especially For You" on 895,000 in his 80s list, where he's obviously shot up the 1988/89 multiplier of Gallup, which he's probably done to reflect BPI & shipment info. It very likely, also shipped a million. To this day, you can pick up vinyl copies at 5p each, from various outlets. In 1990, I saw many copies in a bargain bucket in a newsagents at 25p. Don't ever expect it to become a collectors item!

                        I'm not intending rapping this thread up just yet, as someone gave me an idea & said "Dave, why don't you do exactly the same with BMRB & Gallup figures?" So, I think I will, in comparison.

                        Meantime, here's a link to the weekly show, where current charts are compared to vintage MRIB stuff:
                        https://www.dropbox.com/sh/erkbplexjyn6 ... ops_01.mp3

                        https://www.dropbox.com/sh/erkbplexjyn6 ... ops_02.mp3

                        https://www.dropbox.com/sh/erkbplexjyn6 ... ops_03.mp3

                        https://www.dropbox.com/sh/erkbplexjyn6 ... ops_04.mp3

                        https://www.dropbox.com/sh/erkbplexjyn6 ... ops_05.mp3

                        https://www.dropbox.com/sh/erkbplexjyn6 ... ops_06.mp3

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by MFR
                          Originally posted by davetaylor
                          1988
                          01 MISTLETOE & WINE - CLIFF RICHARD 880,000
                          02 ONLY WAY IS UP - YAZZ & THE PLASTIC POPULATION 654,000
                          03 I SHOULD BE SO LUCKY - KYLIE MINOGUE 652,000
                          04 I THINK WE'RE ALONE NOW - TIFFANY 584,000
                          05 CRACKERS INTERNATIONAL E.P. - ERASURE 580,000
                          06 FIRST TIME - ROBIN BECK 547,000
                          07 NOTHING'S GONNA CHANGE MY LOVE FOR YOU - GLENN MADEIROS 531,000
                          08 A GROOVY KIND OF LOVE - PHIL COLLINS (not a mrib #1) 520,000
                          I was going to mention that MRIB were, in effect, using a higher multiplier here than Gallup. The Gallup figure for A Groovy Kind Of Love was 477.000 to the end of January 1989 (I have the panel sales), which seems realistic for a single that didn't get a gold certification for 500,000 shipped - and Virgin were very good at certifying.
                          Indeed. Like I said they were using 20. I've taken it down to 18. Though BPI certificates, don't mean much. If you go by that strategy, where are the Gold certificates for "The Winner Takes It All" in 1980 & Rod Stewart's 1977 double A side? Apparently they never happened. Though apparently in the "Official" (small o included!) Abba best sellers, apparently "The Winner Takes It All" sold 561,000 in physical copies & don't mention St. Winifred's School Choir. That apparently never happened either. Then, there's "Just Like Starting Over", apparently only sold 250,000 in BPI's eyes.

                          I'm forever being told that the BPI worked closely with BMRB & Gallup. It's not close enough in my opinion & then we read in 1990, about the BPI were planning on breaking away from Gallup & thinking about compiling their own charts. Certificates don't mean much & back to Graham's enormous points...What about the invisible figures, hidden from BPI sight? I suppose the MRIB figures could be taken down to 17, which would take Phil to 491,000, but hey ho it could be that Gallup was too low. If they surveyed 450 shops in 1981 with a x11, then 250 shops, would need to be x20 to be a more accurate match. Obviously MRIB, did have a lowerproportion of the market (with Woolworths, of course). Which would of put MRIB on 25% of the hidden market. Though their surveyed shops, were known of the Gallup shops. It can be compared to those small Record Retailer shops in the 1960s. I believe their market was only 8%, in comparison to Melody Maker's 50% & NME's 42%. Talking of the 1967 to 69 period there.

                          Gallup compiled a good idea of their own market, as did MRIB. 2 Different markets, untouch by both companies. The sales for each market was going to be different & we'll always end up, with 3 tins of baked beans. MRIB may well of sold 520,000 copies of Phil Collins in their equation (infact the original panel x20 points to nearly 580,000) & it never made #1, for MRIB. 2 different companies, will mainly always be different. Reading through some old threads (elsewhere) the old chestnut of "Whispering Grass" & "Sailing" comes up by Brian (& also me, in other forums). 800 plus (apparently sold by Don & Windsor. So, where is the 1.3million equivalent for Rod Stewart? Apparently it's only just passed a million, when (it most likely) did that by 1977.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by davetaylor
                            Originally posted by MFR
                            Originally posted by davetaylor
                            1988
                            01 MISTLETOE & WINE - CLIFF RICHARD 880,000
                            02 ONLY WAY IS UP - YAZZ & THE PLASTIC POPULATION 654,000
                            03 I SHOULD BE SO LUCKY - KYLIE MINOGUE 652,000
                            04 I THINK WE'RE ALONE NOW - TIFFANY 584,000
                            05 CRACKERS INTERNATIONAL E.P. - ERASURE 580,000
                            06 FIRST TIME - ROBIN BECK 547,000
                            07 NOTHING'S GONNA CHANGE MY LOVE FOR YOU - GLENN MADEIROS 531,000
                            08 A GROOVY KIND OF LOVE - PHIL COLLINS (not a mrib #1) 520,000
                            I was going to mention that MRIB were, in effect, using a higher multiplier here than Gallup. The Gallup figure for A Groovy Kind Of Love was 477.000 to the end of January 1989 (I have the panel sales), which seems realistic for a single that didn't get a gold certification for 500,000 shipped - and Virgin were very good at certifying.
                            Indeed. Like I said they were using 20. I've taken it down to 18. Though BPI certificates, don't mean much. If you go by that strategy, where are the Gold certificates for "The Winner Takes It All" in 1980 & Rod Stewart's 1977 double A side? Apparently they never happened.
                            Neither of these was on Virgin, though. There are no obvious misses or under-certified singles on Virgin in my opinion.

                            Yes, for other companies there are some certifications missing from the BPI lists. The Winner Takes It All is one of them. Rod's single is silver. There was an error with the panel sales for it in the year-end chart, but the corrected figure is still in the low 500,000s and this was the BMRB days, which were less accurate anyway.

                            I've looked into missing BPI awards and found out quite a few did actually happen but either never made a BPI list, or dropped off the database more recently. Some of the 1990s ones have now ended up there, or been restored, thanks to the auto-certification process.

                            Originally posted by davetaylor
                            Though apparently in the "Official" (small o included!) Abba best sellers, apparently "The Winner Takes It All" sold 561,000 in physical copies & don't mention St. Winifred's School Choir. That apparently never happened either. Then, there's "Just Like Starting Over", apparently only sold 250,000 in BPI's eyes.
                            Both St Winifred's School Choir (December 1st 1980 - though that just means December on any date) and John Lennon's Just Like Starting Over (February 1st, 1981 - likewise) are gold on the BPI database, and were listed at the time, so I'm not sure what you mean there.

                            Originally posted by davetaylor
                            I'm forever being told that the BPI worked closely with BMRB & Gallup. It's not close enough in my opinion & then we read in 1990, about the BPI were planning on breaking away from Gallup & thinking about compiling their own charts. Certificates don't mean much & back to Graham's enormous points...What about the invisible figures, hidden from BPI sight? I suppose the MRIB figures could be taken down to 17, which would take Phil to 491,000, but hey ho it could be that Gallup was too low. If they surveyed 450 shops in 1981 with a x11, then 250 shops, would need to be x20 to be a more accurate match. Obviously MRIB, did have a lowerproportion of the market (with Woolworths, of course). Which would of put MRIB on 25% of the hidden market. Though their surveyed shops, were known of the Gallup shops. It can be compared to those small Record Retailer shops in the 1960s. I believe their market was only 8%, in comparison to Melody Maker's 50% & NME's 42%. Talking of the 1967 to 69 period there.
                            You'll have to ask Graham about his ideas. They didn't make any sense to me.

                            Phil Collins on 477,000 in Gallup at x17 and 491,000 in MRIB at x17 are close enough.

                            450 shops x 11 was based on an estimated market size in BMRB's time of 5,000 shops. Gallup's register found fewer shops overall so they were using 250 x 17 = 4,250 for singles and 250 x 20 = 5,000 for albums, which may partly have been an attempt to allow for record club sales.
                            Originally posted by davetaylor
                            Gallup compiled a good idea of their own market, as did MRIB. 2 Different markets, untouch by both companies. The sales for each market was going to be different & we'll always end up, with 3 tins of baked beans. MRIB may well of sold 520,000 copies of Phil Collins in their equation (infact the original panel x20 points to nearly 580,000) & it never made #1, for MRIB. 2 different companies, will mainly always be different. Reading through some old threads (elsewhere) the old chestnut of "Whispering Grass" & "Sailing" comes up by Brian (& also me, in other forums). 800 plus (apparently sold by Don & Windsor. So, where is the 1.3million equivalent for Rod Stewart? Apparently it's only just passed a million, when (it most likely) did that by 1977.
                            I remember Brian Hankin's 1970s topic on Haven. If I remember correctly he quoted some years more than once with different multipliers. It was very confusing, but in the end, taking his (your?) figures for each single and using the suggested multiplier to convert back to panel sales you basically get the BMRB 1970s chart, which may not have been what Brian intended.

                            From what I remember BMRB had been using 20 as the multiplier, but the mid-1970s industry-wide survey resulted in a new estimate of around 5,000 shops and a multiplier of 17, which got reduced later as the standard panel size increased.

                            Comment


                            • ^
                              This is what I've wondered about for some time. So the standard (I have always called it the theoretical) panel started off at 250 shops with BMRB in 1969 (or at least it was meant to) and then in the late 70s to early 80s increased to 450 only to fall back to 250 when Gallup took over chart compilation duties in 1983? Is that correct?

                              If so, did it stay as a constant 250 from January 1983 until the change to DUS under Millward Brown in 1997? This would be despite the actual amount of shops being sampled getting ever larger in size throughout the 80s and into the 90s?

                              Comment


                              • Rod Stewart's 1977 BMRB mis-hap, was the big point. In the half term chart of 1977, Rod was above Barbra Stresand. But in the year end mistake of getting the first 2 numbers of the chart panel sale back to front, the poor fella was relegated outside the top 30, when he should of been around #13. The original BMRB list was just the panel sales, with some of those cross-over into 2 years records Though BMRB were ridden with those Sat to Fri sales, from 1976 onwards in parts & (I think) it was 1982, when they (again) went back to that & consequently later, lost the contract to Gallup. Record Business also bid for the BBC Chart & also lost in a bid to get out of the red & finished up dead themselves, with Barry Lazell inheriting "Arthur" (the computer) from his former employers.

                                I can never fiind St Winifred's on the BPI database, but John Lennon had gone gold, by Christmas 1980, not as late as February 1981. Over 600,000 by the final week of 1980. Starting Over sold 200,000 in the week Lennon was shot dead.

                                Comment


                                • I'm not sure about 1969, but it was actually 300 by 1973 or so (with a multipier of 20 and an assumed market size of 6,000). In 1976 the survey saw a reduction in the market estimate to 5,000 and the multiplier was reduced to 17 accordingly. This change may well have been back-dated to much earlier as they may have decided it really had been 5,000 or so all along.

                                  There were then increases in the numbers of shops in the standard panel in both 1978 and 1981, ending up at 450, causing the multiplier to be reduced still further. What MRIB did is not something I would know.

                                  Gallup kept to a standard reporting panel of 250 throughout even though the sample size grew, and OCC continued with this panel size until the method became obsolete in 1997 when DUS reporting began.

                                  Comment


                                  • A member of Gallup's team wrote an article for Melody Maker in November 1983, saying Gallup's panel was 230,000, when it began. I beg to differ that BMRB, went lower than 17 at any point in the 70s. It certainly didn't in 1978 or 1979, as the charts of those years show.

                                    Record Business was 10 from 1978 to 1983. MRIB came in with 20 in 1984 & down to 18 in 1989. I believe RB had a 300 shop poll. MRIB started with 300 (equivalent to 6000 possible shops) & later increased to 350. I think the 20 was too high, hence why I took it down to 18 for the 1985 to 88 period. As (MFR pointed out) it looks still a tad too high (in the Phil Collins example). So, if taken down to 17 for those years, it does (indeed) give better reflection & even "Mistletoe & Wine" falls to 831,000. This will become more apparent, when I attempt to list BMRB/Gallup year by year in the 80s. Though 18 does look very trustworthy for 1989.

                                    They were still doing that in the early 00s, before downloads came along & before they started compiling Mark Goodier's Emap based "Smash Hits Chart". The regular downloads (listed only with a physical release) carried on (though weighted) until April 2008. That was listed in the Sunday People. MRIB. Record charts ceased at MRIB in 2008 & they continued in the video market, until Vodaphone bought them out in 2009. This is how the Vodaphone Big Top 40 came about. This June, Big Top 40 dropped airplay & is now basically the iTunes top 40 of the week, minus album tracks from artist albums. So (in actual fact) although MRIB ceased to exist, essentially it's part of the Vodaphone Big Top 40. Barry Lazell passed away, some years ago.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by davetaylor
                                      "Chain Reaction" continued to sell to 1989 & shifted another 50,000 during that period.
                                      Thanks, Dave - that's very interesting.

                                      I had originally thought Chain Reaction had been selling after 1986 until the end of 1989 based on it finishing below Cliff's Living Doll in 1986 (both records out of chart by year end) and yet being 4 places above it in the decade chart both published in Record Mirror and compiled by Alan Jones presumably on official chart figures.

                                      However I w.as the told it was possible the decade chart was compiled using a different methodolgy.

                                      As you have advised CR was selling less in independents and a player such as Woolworth for example wouldn't be stocking the record once it had dropped out of the chart the scenario would actually make sense that Gallup would pick up a certain percentage of the sales which MRIB did from 1987/89 putting it ahead of Living Doll so I think that is very likely what happened.

                                      Comment


                                      • Here's the comparison. Starting with Gallup in 1989. We'll do the 1983 - 89 Gallup years all to x17, as so many have said is correct. Though I've many panel sales, there maybe some, I neglected at the time, so some, will be round abouts. Don't be afraid to correct, any minor errors. I hate guesswork, but sometimes it has to be used.

                                        1989 (Gallup)
                                        01 RIDE ON TIME - BLACK BOX 849,000
                                        02 ESPECIALLY FOR YOU - KYLIE MINOGUE & JASON DONOVAN 844,000
                                        03 SWING THE MOOD - JIVE BUNNY 820,000
                                        04 ETERNAL FLAME - BANGLES 498,000
                                        05 TOO MANY BROKEN HEARTS - JASON DONOVAN 461,000
                                        06 BACK TO LIFE - SOUL II SOUL 449,000
                                        07 SOMETHING'S GOTTEN HOLD OF MY HEART - MARC ALMOND/GENE PITNEY 447,000
                                        08 THAT'S WHAT I LIKE - JIVE BUNNY 433,000
                                        09 PUMP UP THE JAM - TECHNOTRONIC 426,000
                                        10 DO THEY KNOW IT'S CHRISTMAS - BAND AID II 424,000
                                        11 HAND ON YOUR HEART - KYLIE MINOGUE 419,000
                                        12 LIKE A PRAYER - MADONNA 412,000
                                        13 ALL AROUND THE WORLD - LISA STANSFIELD 376,000
                                        14 IF ONLY I COULD - SYDNEY YOUNGBLOOD 367,000
                                        15 LOVE CHANGES EVERYTHING - MICHAEL BALL 361,000
                                        16 GIRL I'M GONNA MISS YOU - MILLI VANILLI 353,000
                                        17 YOU'LL NEVER STOP ME LOVING YOU - SONIA 346,000
                                        18 RIGHT STUFF - NEW KIDS ON THE BLOCK 344,000
                                        19 LIVING YEARS - MIKE & THE MECHANICS (a mrib #1) 339,000
                                        20 FERRY 'CROSS THE MERSEY - VARIOUS 333,000
                                        21 MISS YOU LIKE CRAZY - NATALIE COLE 331,000
                                        22 I WOULDN'T CHANGE A THING - KYLIE MINOGUE 329,000
                                        23 THIS TIME I KNOW IT'S FOR REAL - DONNA SUMMER 319,000
                                        24 REQUIEM - LONDON BOYS 315,000
                                        25 DON'T KNOW MUCH - LINDA RONSTADT & AARON NEVILLE 312,000
                                        26 LET'S PARTY - JIVE BUNNY (not a mrib #1) 310,000
                                        27 STREET TUFF - REBEL M.C. 308,000
                                        28 BALLAD OF THE STREETS E.P. - SIMPLE MINDS 305,000
                                        29 FRENCH KISS - LIL' LOUIS 300,000
                                        30 SEALED WITH A KISS - JASON DONOVAN 295,000
                                        31 RIGHT HERE WAITING - RICHARD MARX 293,000
                                        32 STRAIGHT UP - PAULA ABDUL 291,000
                                        33 YOU GOT IT - ROY ORBISON 288,000
                                        34 LAMBADA - KAOMA 279,000
                                        35 GOOD LIFE - INNER CITY 277,000
                                        36 HELP - BANANARAMA/FRENCH & SAUNDERS 276,000
                                        37 STOP - SAM BROWN 274,000
                                        38 WHEN YOU COME BACK TO ME - JASON DONOVAN 266,000
                                        39 IF YOU DON'T KNOW ME BY NOW - SIMPLY RED (a mrib #1) 265,000
                                        40 LONDON NIGHTS - LONDON BOYS 260,000
                                        41 POISON - ALICE COOPER 255,000
                                        42 THE BEST - TINA TURNER 247,000
                                        43 LOVE TRAIN - HOLLY JOHNSON 244,000
                                        44 IF I COULD TURN BACK TIME - CHER 240,000
                                        45 LEAVE ME ALONE - MICHAEL JACKSON (a mrib #1) 238,000
                                        46 ROOM IN YOUR HEART - LIVING IN A BOX 234,000
                                        47 ANOTHER DAY IN PARADISE - PHIL COLLINS 232,000
                                        48 SONG FOR WHOEVER - BEAUTIFUL SOUTH 230,000
                                        49 GET A LIFE - SOUL II SOUL (a mrib #1) 228,000
                                        50 MY PREROGATIVE - BOBBY BROWN 227,000
                                        51 BABY I DON'T CARE - TRANSVISION VAMP 226,000
                                        52 LEAVE A LIGHT ON - BELINDA CARLISLE 224,000
                                        53 BLAME IT ON THE BOOGIE - BIG FUN 223,000
                                        54 ON OUR OWN - BOBBY BROWN 220,000
                                        55 WE DIDN'T START THE FIRE - BILLY JOEL 218,000
                                        56 BAT DANCE - PRINCE 215,000
                                        57 TIME WARP - DAMIAN 213,000
                                        58 AMERICANOS - HOLLY JOHNSON 213,000
                                        59 CAN'T STAY AWAY FROM YOU - GLORIA ESTEFAN 212,000
                                        60 SHE DRIVES ME CRAZY - FINE YOUNG CANNIBALS 210,000
                                        61 DON'T WANNA LOSE YOU - GLORIA ESTEFAN 208,000
                                        62 DRAMA - ERASURE 206,000
                                        63 TOY SOLDIERS - MARTIKA 205,000
                                        64 KEEP ON MOVIIN' - SOUL II SOUL 201,000
                                        65 CUDDLY TOY - ROACHFORD 199,000
                                        66 I BEG YOUR PARDON - KON KAN 197,000
                                        67 EVE OF THE WAR 89 - JEFF WAYNE (a mrib #1) 196,000
                                        68 HEY MUSIC LOVER - S'EXPRESS 193,000
                                        69 RIGHT BACK WHERE WE STARTED FROM - SINITTA 189,000
                                        70 I FEEL THE EARTH MOVE -MARTIKA 189,000
                                        71 WIND BENEATH MY WINGS - BETTE MIDLER 188,000
                                        72 HEY DJ - BEATMASTERS/BETTY BOO 185,000
                                        73 NEVER TOO LATE - KYLIE MINOGUE 183,000
                                        74 TOO MUCH - BROS 179,000
                                        75 SOWING THE SEEDS OF LOVE - TEARS FOR FEARS 178,000

                                        The major differences certainly appeared in those SAW productions & Kylie's "Never Too Late" being way up in the top 50 for MRIB, but only #73 for Gallup.

                                        Comment


                                        • A reminder that crossovers into 2 years, are included as whole ones i.e. the complete figures.

                                          1988 (Gallup)
                                          01 MISTLETOE & WINE - CLIFF RICHARD 755,000
                                          02 ONLY WAY IS UP - YAZZ & THE PLASTIC POPULATION 628,000
                                          03 I SHOULD BE SO LUCKY - KYLIE MINOGUE 625,000
                                          04 I THINK WE'RE ALONE NOW - TIFFANY 537,000
                                          05 NOTHING'S GONNA CHANGE MY LOVE FOR YOU - GLENN MADEIROS 502,000
                                          06 A GROOVY KIND OF LOVE - PHIL COLLINS (not a mrib #1) 477,000
                                          07 HE AIN'T HEAVY HE'S MY BROTHER - HOLLIES 475,000
                                          08 HEAVEN IS A PLACE ON EARTH - BELINDA CARLISLE 472,300
                                          09 CRACKERS INTERNATIONAL E.P. - ERASURE 472,000
                                          10 WITH A LITTLE HELP FROM MY FRIENDS - WET WET WET 424,000
                                          11 TEARDROPS - WOMACK & WOMACK 415,000
                                          12 SUDDENLY - ANGRY ANDERSON 388,000
                                          13 LOCOMOTION - KYLIE MINOGUE 369,050
                                          14 FIRST TIME - ROBIN BECK 353,000
                                          15 PERFECT - FAIRGROUND ATTRACTION 339,000
                                          16 ONE MOMENT IN TIME - WHITNEY HOUSTON 326,000
                                          17 PUSH IT - SALT 'N' PEPA 321,000
                                          18 ORINOCO FLOW - ENYA 293,000
                                          19 HOUSE ARREST - KRUSH 292,000
                                          20 THEME FROM S'EXPRESS - S'EXPRESS 291,000
                                          21 JE NE SAIS POURQUOI - KYLIE MINOGUE 288,600
                                          22 BUFFALO STANCE - NENEH CHERRY 284,000
                                          23 GOT TO BE CERTAIN - KYLIE MINOGUE 274,000
                                          24 HARDER I TRY - BROTHER BEYOND 273,000
                                          25 TELL IT TO MY HEART - TAYLOR DAYNE 266,000
                                          26 I OWE YOU NOTHING - BROS 265,000
                                          27 HEART - PET SHOP BOYS 256,000
                                          28 GET OUTA OF MY DREAMS - BILLY OCEAN 255,000
                                          29 DON'T TURN AROUND - ASWAD 247,000
                                          30 SIGN YOUR NAME - TERENCE TRENT DARBY 247,000
                                          31 NOTHING CAN DIVIDE US - JASON DONOVAN 243,000
                                          32 BEAT DIS - BOMB THE BASS 240,000
                                          33 DROP THE BOY - BROS 239,000
                                          34 STUTTER RAP - MORRIS MINOR & THE MAJORS 237,000
                                          35 ANGEL EYES - WET WET WET 232,000
                                          36 TWIST (YO TWIST) - FAT BOYS & CHUBBY CHECKER 231,000
                                          37 WHEN WILL I BE FAMOUS - BROS 229,000
                                          38 BOYS (SUMMERTIME LOVE) - SABRINA 227,000
                                          39 SILENT NIGHT/CAT AMONGST THE PIGEONS - BROS 227,000
                                          40 YOU CAME - KIM WILDE 225,000
                                          41 LOVELY DAY 88 - BILL WITHERS 224,000
                                          42 I NEED YOU - BVSMP 219,000
                                          43 TWO HEARTS - PHIL COLLINS 219,000
                                          44 STAND UP FOR YOUR LOVE RIGHTS - YAZZ 217,000
                                          45 GIRL YOU KNOW IT'S TRUE - MILLI VANILLI 215,000
                                          46 DON'T WORRY BE HAPPY - BOBBY MCFERRIN 209,000
                                          47 HANDS TO HEAVEN - BREATHE 209,000
                                          48 LOVE CHANGES EVERYTHING - CLIMIE FISHER 208,000
                                          49 DESIRE - U2 207,000
                                          50 A LITTLE RESPECT - ERASURE 205,000
                                          51 BIG FUN - INNER CITY 203,00
                                          52 TOGETHER FOREVER - RICK ASTLEY 198,000
                                          53 MISSING YOU - CHRIS DE BURGH 196,000
                                          54 I NEED YOU TONIGHT - INXS 194,000
                                          55 BURNING BRIDGES - STATUS QUO 191,000
                                          56 LOCO IN ACAPULCO - FOUR TOPS 190,000
                                          57 DOCTORIN' THE TARDIS - TIMELORDS 189,000
                                          58 I FOUND SOMEONE - CHER 186,000
                                          59 MY LOVE - JULIO IGLESIAS & STEVIE WONDER 185,000
                                          60 SHE WANTS TO DANCE WITH ME - RICK ASTLEY 185,000
                                          61 COULD'VE BEEN - TIFFANY 185,000
                                          62 WHO'S LEAVING WHO - HAZELL DEAN 183,000
                                          63 COME INTO MY LIFE - JOYCE SIMS 182,000
                                          64 JOE LE TAXI - VANESSA PARADIS 181,000
                                          65 THE RACE - YELLO 181,000
                                          66 SMOOTH CRIMINAL - MICHAEL JACKSON 178,000
                                          67 REAL GONE KID - DEACON BLUE 177,000
                                          68 I WANT YOU BACK - BANANARAMA 175,000
                                          69 WE CALL IT ACIEED - D MOB (a mrib #1) 174,000
                                          70 PINK CADILLAC - NATALIE COLE 174,000
                                          71 DON'T MAKE ME WAIT/MEGABLAST - BOMB THE BASS 174,000
                                          72 GIVE ME HOPE JOANNA - EDDY GRANT 174,000
                                          73 MARY'S PRAYER - DANNY WILSON 173,000
                                          74 FOUR LETTER WORD - KIM WILDE 172,000
                                          75 TRIBUTE (RIGHT ON) - PASADENAS 171,000
                                          76 TAKE ME TO YOUR HEART - RICK ASTLEY 170,000
                                          77 SAY IT AGAIN - JERMAINE STEWART 169,000
                                          78 WEE RULE - WEE PAPA GIRL RAPPERS 168,000
                                          79 ANYTHING FOR YOU - GLORIA ESTEFAN 167,000
                                          80 I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT - EVERYTHING BUT THE GIRL 167,000
                                          81 THE JACK THAT HOUSE BUILT - JACK 'N' CHILL 165,000

                                          Still the SAW overload for MRIB in 1988 & Gallup compared, also showed MRIB had U2 & the Timelords, much higher up.

                                          Comment


                                          • Originally posted by davetaylor
                                            A member of Gallup's team wrote an article for Melody Maker in November 1983, saying Gallup's panel was 230,000, when it began.
                                            As I posted earlier, the number of shops sampled is not especially relevant. A sample from 230 shops could be converted to a 250-shop-based panel sales total by multiplying the sample figures by 25 and dividing by 23 (except it would be done on a cell-by-cell basis, with some cells potentially better-represented relative to the standard panel than others) .

                                            In the same way the later sample sizes of 900, or whatever, shops could also be converted to the 250-shop equivalent for reporting purposes. Gallup kept to a consistent reporting standard panel size of 250 shops.

                                            Comment


                                            • Removed
                                              Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                              Comment


                                              • Originally posted by davetaylor
                                                "Mistletoe & Wine" is one of those points in vain of what Graham (so truly said). It sold more in those many a shop not surveyed by Gallup. MRIB upped their multiplier to 20 for 1988. I don't think this was needed, so I've reverted it to 18. It shipped a million (without question).

                                                The whole Mistletoe & Wine saga is strange.

                                                Cliff was well known for selling relatively better in the big chains such as Woolworth and Smiths as opposed to Independents so why would the pattern suddenly change with M&W as would seem form MRIB?

                                                I don't know whether it shipped a million or not.

                                                EMI supplied figures to Goodall & Lewry for world sales of his records for 1988/89. They had previously issued a full list up to then in connection with his 30th Anniversary in the music business.

                                                The total for M&W was just over 973k. While the bulk of these were in the UK it was a minor hit in several other countries so that knocks the total down further. Of course that figure may have included returns.

                                                Comment


                                                • Funny you should mention that, but that 973,000 was the figure mentioned by David Jensen, on the Network Chart in January 1989. Which (as it 'appens) is just 4,000 short on the x20 figure I got, before I reduced the multiplier. The 977,000 I got to x20, would basically match the figure in the NME Book, where (again) some of the multipliers of MRIB, have also been marked too high. Seems MRIB, loved big figures. Probably the 831,000 on a MRIB x17, would make more sense, which would cover 88/89 in full. Alan Jones suggests both Cliff in 88 (& Rick Astley in 87) both sold the same amounts...but then says that 18 is his multiplier for 1987, so Rick sold a tad under 800,000 under his (then) rules. Had he continued with that idea, then Cliff also sold, just under 800,000 in 88/89. Sounds feasible. Sometimes the multiplier may have been spot on, others not. According to BPI it only ever got a silver disc for 250,000 sales! It's the same thing for 1979, if Heart Of Glass sold a million in a year, then so did "We Don't Talk Anymore", but neither did. They were nearly 850,000 a piece.

                                                  Graham...The 60s charts were not mostly London based (that is wrong). Melody Maker is more Northern related in 60s terms & also took Northern Ireland in their equation of points based Top 50s. Hence all those Northern Soul hits, not featured on other charts. Shops were listed in the paper in the early days. NME was fixed at times, by slapping in sales by adverts to the paper. Disc was rather small & was later swallowed up by Melody Maker's enormous 60s polls. While Record Retailer was limiting itself to easy listening outlets, hence why you had Frank Ifield & Des O'Connor having #1s, that weren't real in context, to unvaried polls. None had more polls in London. They were equally established in Southampton, Leeds, Glasgow, Cardiff & Liverpool. Even more good reason, why the fabulous BBC, added the lot together, for the overall average.

                                                  Comment


                                                  • Originally posted by Graham76man
                                                    The problem with sampling is that you cannot add things like the weather into the factor. For your sample could be out by miles if for example a huge bunch of kids that would have bought records in one town and another huge bunch of kids stayed home because it was chucking it down in the next sample town. I doubt if Gallup adjusted the sample to take into the fact that there was a storm in Sutherland one day! Samples also doesn't fully represent regional sales. A sample of 250 could miss out a lot of big population areas. And in the end we are talking people numbers here!
                                                    This is covered by the fact that each cell only contained shops in a particular region, so while shops in Newcastle might be matched to equivalent shops in Sunderland, even Leeds (and Sheffield) would be in a different cell. There would be shops on the panel in Sunderland anyway, so on the rare occasions that this 'weather event' actually affected sales it would just mean fewer than normal sales for the north-east of England cells.
                                                    Originally posted by Graham76man
                                                    I was told by a record industry person that the only chart shop in Sheffield during the 70's was Bradleys Records. When I was buying records in the late 70's, there were stacks of Record Shops in Sheffield. I hardly think that one chart shop would have showed a true reflection of sales for a massive city like that. Knowing Bradleys too they didn't sell "punk" records! So you can add different types of music to the exclusion list of sampling.
                                                    This may be true of the BMRB era, but Gallup created a register of all shops selling recorded music and categorised them by type, chain, area, volume of sales and built a representative sample from this information.
                                                    Originally posted by Graham76man
                                                    Another factor you have to take in is being a "chart shop" brought huge benefits. The industry also knew which of the shops were providing sales information.
                                                    This is a known phenomenon, e.g. in March 1992 the market estimate based on the multiplier for the Wedding Present's single Three was more than 15,000 in its first week, despite being limited to only 10,000 copies. But most of them went to chart returns shops.

                                                    This caused sales estimates to have the potential to be slightly too high, the above example being an extreme case because availability was not even throughout the market. But you're the guy who thinks the sales figures are way too low....
                                                    Originally posted by Graham76man
                                                    I also remember seeing Sheena Easton on that BBC series that made her a star in the 80's going into record shops and seeing lots of copies of her new single being sold. Later in the day she went to the Chart people and they ran a computer sales check for her record. It showed none had been sold!
                                                    Perhaps they should have visited the following week because the sales data didn't come in on a daily basis in those days.

                                                    Comment

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