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  • #51
    Re: "Pick and Top of the Pops" No 1's

    Hey All,
    A poster on Popscene has found the audio of the July 8, 1964 TOTP show on YouTube. But the BBC is blocking it in the USA. Could someone please go to this link below and tell me what the DJ says when introducing Roy Orbison's "It's Over"? Does he say something like "last week #2, this week #4"?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHC8dLx-V4c

    Cheers to the max !!

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    • #52
      3 pj proby
      2 rolling stones
      1 animals (the dj said "once again")
      I'm looking for "TOP POPS/MUSIC NOW" and "MERSEYBEAT / MUSIC ECHO" Charts to complete my 60's singles charts collection.

      Comment


      • #53
        Re: "Pick and Top of the Pops" No 1's

        Thanks andrej !! I mistakenly was hoping this clip included the audio of all the DJ talk of this show, like some of the POTP files out there. Then I realized after I posted that TOTP didn't play every record on the show, they showed an artist/record 'photo' countdown at the beginning of the show, and otherwise jumped around, playing new records, usually ending in the #1 for the week. Chips n crisps !!

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        • #54
          Just to tidy this up and summarize the evidence for what was #1 on the BBC for July 1, 1964:

          “It’s Over” by Roy Orbison
          vs.
          “House of the Rising Sun” by The Animals

          In support of “It’s Over” by Roy Orbison at #1:

          --the original BBC chart file by Dave Taylor/Trevor Ager
          --the Pete Seaton fusion of research, listings, and work of Richard Down; as published in Pete’s TOTP book, and posted on Popscene by Mark Leech aka TOTP1964 (and posted on multiple other sites as well)
          --the mathematical average of the NME, Melody Maker, Disc, and Record Retailer charts
          (thus “It’s Over” was #1 for 3 weeks, “House” for 1 week)

          In support of “House OTRS” by The Animals at #1:

          --the 2 revised BBC chart files by Dave Taylor/Trevor Ager, as researched by Trevor at the BBC library
          --the Derek Chinnery (BBC chart compiler) #1 override rule, as discovered during Trevor’s BBC library research, whereby a record at #1 on a majority of the component charts was given the BBC #1 even though another record may have had a better mathematical average. “House” was #1 on NME, MM, Disc, #6 on RR. “It’s Over” was #1 on RR, #2 on NME, MM, Disc. Most often invoked with new Beatles records, when they would frequently debut at #1 on NME, MM, and Disc, but much lower on RR. A mathematical averaging would have kept many Beatles records from debuting at #1 due to the inferior RR chart, which was 1 day off from the other charts, and sampled a significantly fewer number of record shops. But this rule also came into play with other #1 records as well, including “House”, and “The Last Time” by The Rolling Stones.
          --the Dave Taylor analysis of BBC #1’s vs. the EMI average chart #1’s, as posted on Popscene
          --the July 8, 1964 TOTP audio file, the last 11 min in circulation (I’ve got it), where the DJ introduces the #1 record as “and once again it’s The Animals and The House OTRS”, implying it was also #1 the week before on July 1, 1964
          --the POTP 1964 year-end #1’s recap show, as listened to and documented by UKMix poster “olemygind” as it was broadcast live; both “It’s Over” and “House” were listed at #1 for 2 weeks each

          So that’s the evidence. A seemingly strong majority indicates “House OTRS” is the winner for the BBC #1 on July 1, 1964…

          Class dismissed. Now back to Brexit…

          Comment


          • #55
            If you can't see any YouTube video because of a regional block, than you can use a proxy address. There is a link for one on my Real Chart blog, on this week's chart page, just under the top ten videos.
            Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

            Comment


            • #56
              I just bought a copy of Pete Seaton's book on TOTP, "British Television Music & Variety Guide II: Top Pop 1964-2006." I thought this was going to list the actual running order of every TOTP show, like what is found on the Popscene website, but the 2 are different. The 2 basically have the same artists/records listed, but the Pete book (at least for the 60s, maybe more) mostly appears to be a list of artists in alphabetical order, but I haven't thoroughly checked it all out yet. The BBC website used to have the same, TOTP show listings, with artists in alphabetical order, not show running order, but that info has been removed years ago.

              Is anyone familiar with the Popscene TOTP listings (as shown as being posted by person TOTP1964 which I think is a name change from Mark Leech), seemingly in show running order, and are they highly accurate? They seem to end each show with the #1 record, so that gives them some credence. I'm guessing they are mostly correct, but would love to hear from the rest of all of yall. I'm curious as to what source they used to post all these shows, as I have seen them repeated on various other websites, and no one mentions where they got their data.

              Cheers n cheese...

              Comment


              • #57
                The Popscene Top Of The Pops listings first appeared in 2007 and started with the 1980s. The BBC website Top Of The Pops database you mention is referenced as is Pete's book. But much mention is made of private copies held of Top Of The Pops programmes - presumably on video or DVD - as well as the BBC's internal Infax programming database which Neil also seems to have access to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Pr...atalogue#Infax

                This was the first thread to appear (and all 1980s listings were posted by Neil rather than TOTP1964)

                https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/pops...980-t1124.html

                which begs the question how did Neil Barker compile the lists? For the 1980s I guess if Neil owned enough recordings then he was able to list what appeared on each edition. When Neil started to list the 1970s he posted (in the 1970 thread) that the "Exact running orders are unknown, apart from the shows that exist at the BBC or elsewhere." but subsequently the running orders have been included or at least amended. All subsequent years in the 1970s are posted by TOTP1964. The 1960s equivalents - all posted by TOTP1964 - go straight into the running order (I see you've posted in the 1964 thread).

                I'm guessing the listings are simply a mix of information from different original sources. And in the early days of the repeats of Top Of The Pops on BBC4 there were a small handful of occasions where the Popscene listings were found to be slightly incorrect (if I recall it was the running order) and were updated once an episode had been shown.

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                • #58
                  Thanks Robbie, this is so very helpful !!! In some postings further up, it's noted that sometimes Pete Seaton didn't find the vast array of all available BBC documents that would have helped him list all the TOTP shows in actual running order, especially for the 60s. 3 sets of documents are mentioned at your link to the MissingEpisodes website: camera scripts (the intended show sequence prior to actual production), 'produced as seen b' (out of sequence listing of artists in alphabetical order), and 'produced as seen c' (guides to music rights per the finished show).

                  So it appears the TOTP show listings on Popscene are the best actual / best reconstructed / best estimated listings we have for the actual shows running order, especially for the 60s. Which have also been copied to other websites. But they aren't 100% correct, as I discovered with the 1 July 1964 show for what was #1, "It's Over" or "House of the Rising Sun." Even though TOTP1964/Mark Leech is no longer around Popscene, Neil is still there and active. I'll ask him what he knows about this, what data source was used. It could be that someone went to the BBC library after Pete's book came out, and what's posted on Popscene for the 60s TOTP shows is from those better BBC documents.

                  With regards to the Dave Taylor/MikeR mystery, I see that MikeR has been editing some of his old posts on Buzzjack! As recently as this past Saturday!

                  Comment


                  • #59
                    ^
                    Just checked. Yes MikeR seems to be editing his posts in his 1980s and 1970s Selling Singles thread. Some of the edits are from this afternoon. I've quickly checked on his edits today by comparing what I can to the cached version on Google which is from last week and he's amended some sales information plus changed what was at number 1 in 1976. For some he's amended some posts that he only amended a couple of weeks ago. And I've checked Dave Taylor's equivalent posts here and again they don't all tie up. It's impossible to know which sales are correct.

                    Comment


                    • #60
                      ^ Robbie, I just noticed that Dave Taylor has been lurking here AFTER March/April 2014, when he is supposed to have died or moved back to Australia. Although his last lurk here was 3 years ago, 24 June 2016. So he wasn't dead in 2014 anyway! Hopefully he's still around...

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                      • #61
                        I don't know if you know this Robin, but we established that Dave Taylor is now dead in another thread. If I remember rightly another person died connected to a Radio Station, that Dave was involved with. In the tribute to that person, Dave Taylor was mentioned as being with him in "heaven".
                        Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                        Comment


                        • #62
                          Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
                          I don't know if you know this Robin, but we established that Dave Taylor is now dead in another thread. If I remember rightly another person died connected to a Radio Station, that Dave was involved with. In the tribute to that person, Dave Taylor was mentioned as being with him in "heaven".
                          I do think I recall that, Graham, but I'm not sure that there was actual evidence that Dave had passed other than 'someone told someone' and that info has been repeated. One person said he died, another said he emigrated to Australia. The first time it was mentioned that Dave had possibly died was around May 2014. With rumours he was someone else, posting under multiple names on multiple websites. The Haven website was rife with speculation as well, in 2014. Then I just noticed this week that Dave had been checking into UKMix as late as June 2016. So unless someone else logged into UKMix under Dave's name, he apparently he did not pass in 2014. Now, it's possible he passed in between June 2016 and now, but I still haven't seen or read any hard evidence. I don't mean to get anything started, I just thought it was interesting that rumours of his death in 2014 may have been premature. It'd be interesting if someone could locate that other thread that Dave was "in heaven with that other person," and if it was posted between 2014 and June 2016. Dave was a huge wealth of info, an amazing knowledge of all kinds of charts, radio, TV, and history. I wish he were still around/available to help us. A mystery...

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                          • #63
                            It gets more interesting! Robbie had posted on Alan Smith's Updated Chart History thread here on UKMix in 2015 that Dave Taylor had a striking posting resemblance to a Brian Hankin on the Haven forum. I went there, and read every Brian post, and I have to agree with Robbie that the posting similarity is uncanny! The topics, lots of specific details, their common expertise on pre-BMRB charts, and MRIB Network charts. Especially on The Lost Number Ones thread on Haven. What Brian has posted I've seen elsewhere on here and other forums, and in emails I've received from Dave. They have way so much in common, they could indeed be the same person. Brian mentions he knows Dave, he re-posts things from Dave, they went to the same school, lodged together for a while after Dave's divorce. It is most intriguing! Brian's posting history on Haven ran from 2008 to 2013, but he has been lurking there as recently as 15 June 2019! I would say the odds that they are the same person are very high, in which case would mean: Dave lives!!

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                            • #64
                              Here's what I've found with regards to the TOTP show listings on Popscene, from someone in the know at Popscene = Neil.

                              For most of the 60s TOTP shows on Popscene, the weekly listings were reconstructed as a 'best guess' as to what the running order for each show might have been. This was done by reviewing 2 main source documents: Pete Seaton's TOTP book "British TV Music & Variety Guide II Top Pop 1964-2006" ; and the FIRST BBC Pick of the Pops/Top of the Pops weekly chart file as gathered by Dave Taylor/Trevor Ager from the BBC library at Caversham.

                              Pete's source was the TOTP Pas/B 'produced as seen B' documents, a listing for each show of the artists in alphabetical order along with song titles. The songs were matched up with their weekly chart positions from the Dave/Trevor file, then put into a 'best guess' running order. Usually the #1 song was the last song on the show, etc. As other Popscene members supplied actual information, based on notes, audio & video clips, the show running orders were revised.

                              I've read where the actual show running orders can be obtained from the TOTP 'camera script' documents, and a few posters on a few websites have some of them, but no one as yet has obtained them all and supplied them to Popscene. And the BBC now will not allow just anyone into their relocated library (away from Caversham) unless they are certified researchers, and they must make an appointment in advance.

                              I've observed several instances on Popscene where the TOTP listings weekly chart positions do not agree with the 2 LATER REVISED TOTP weekly chart files from Dave/Trevor. I'll try to go over my 3 Dave/Trevor files and see what needs to be revised on Popscene, but I know of one thing right now, and that is The Animals "House of the Rising Sun" needs to be corrected to the #1 record of the week for 1 July 1964, and Roy Orbison's "It's Over" needs to be moved to #2.

                              And as Popscene's data has now been copied over to multiple other websites, there will be conflicting numbers out there in internet land…

                              Far out...

                              Comment


                              • #65
                                Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
                                If you can't see any YouTube video because of a regional block, than you can use a proxy address. There is a link for one on my Real Chart blog, on this week's chart page, just under the top ten videos.
                                Thanks for the tip Graham, I found several sites out there that allow me to out fake YouTube, pretty neat, ha...

                                Comment


                                • #66
                                  Dave was a producer on QMR FM
                                  You could contact them to see what happened to him using the link below. There is a contact point on it.
                                  qmr.fm-the-classic-retro-countdown
                                  Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                  Comment


                                  • #67
                                    Robin and Graham:

                                    I know Dave Taylor was a producer at 2NG but it's the same guy that's mentioned in the above link (Richard Todd) that he produced the shows for. Richard did send an email to Colin (zeus555) in November 2014 in reply to an email Colin had sent to say that he thought Dave had moved to Australia as he had family there. But I remember seeing a "RIP" message on an internet radio station about Dave and have a feeling that it may have been Richard who posted that but this would have been after he'd emailed Colin so perhaps he later found out some information.

                                    I was already aware that there is a "last activity" date of Friday 24 June 2016 for Dave Taylor here at ukmix. I think I mentioned this a couple of years ago but if it was here at ukmix I can't find the post. That seems to have been a one-off visit as for a long time the "last activity" date was some date in April 2014 then when I checked again the 2016 date was showing. Was it Dave? Perhaps, but then perhaps someone else knew his login details (if you recall there was a whole host of posters who all posted in a similar style who all seemed to know each other and possibly knew each others passwords) and decided to login using Dave's login details when visiting ukmix on that particular date. Possibly to see if the login details still worked?

                                    There was an actual Dave Taylor (I assume it was the same person as the poster here and elsewhere) who worked at Radio 1 as a producer in the early to mid 1970s which is pretty much what Dave the poster claimed and in that RIP message I mentioned Richard does say Dave worked at Radio 1. That much I do know is true because there's a poster at Digital Spy who knew him. The poster at DS (I shan't name him but anyone who posts there regularly, especially in the Radio forum, will be aware of him) also worked at Radio 1 in the early to mid 70s as well as Radio Luxembourg in the late 70s to early 80s as well as working at Record Mirror in the late 60s to early 70s (lots of his work can be found in the Record Mirror issues from that period of time that are available at americanradiohistory.com) confirmed he knew Dave in reply to a PM I sent him. It was when I was trying to find out if Dave had actually died and I remembered that both would have been at Radio 1 at the same time. However the guy at DS said he'd had no contact with Dave since he last saw him in the mid 70s.

                                    By the way Robin: at BuzzJack are you Finchingfield? If so you've only made three posts (and only one in the past five and a half years) but I thought it might be yourself as Finchingfield was the last visitor to trevs profile at BuzzJack! And yes, Brian Hankin does make the odd appearance at Haven but it's always as a lurker, he just suddenly stopped posting there in May 2013.

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                                    • #68
                                      Robbie: I do recall Trevor and MikeR doing some postings for Dave on one forum, probably Buzzjack, relating to network/MRIB charts I think, while Dave was away/unavailable for several weeks. It could be that one or both would temporarily use Dave's login to do that, it does sound vaguely familiar. I saw several posts by Brian at Haven that Dave also repeated elsewhere and to me in personal emails, one of them being the Record Retailer mix up with Nancy Sinatra's "These Boots" and Small Faces "Sha-La-La-La-Lee" where SF should have been #1. And Brian and Dave's crazy knowledge of chart panels and multipliers. And they both referred to the 'official' charts as being something with a little 'o'. Too many coincidences there, I think Brian is Dave. They all could be Dave! And since Brian was lurking at Haven just 2 weeks ago, if they are one and the same, then Dave could still be alive. It is a good mystery / conspiracy theory, ha...

                                      Yes, I am Finchingfield at Buzzjack. Don't know why I did that, no ulterior motive, I've got nothing to hide! Honest, I'm not in the witness protection program, ha. I was amused that a poster there accused both me and Graham of being Dave Taylor! Because we were slagging the OCC choosing Record Retailer as 'official' for the 60s. I only went over there to read some of Dave's detailed postings, and one day I read something that I felt I needed to rant back about, hence joining up. These days I only check into Buzzjack sporadically, to see if there's something unique there...

                                      Edit: Well, I just found a thread on Buzzjack from April 2008, dealing with the end of the MRIB charts, where Trevs, Dave, and Brian are all talking back and forth to each other. And Robbie is in there too! So maybe they are not the same person after all? Hmmm...

                                      Comment


                                      • #69
                                        Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post

                                        Yes, I am Finchingfield at Buzzjack. Don't know why I did that, no ulterior motive, I've got nothing to hide! Honest, I'm not in the witness protection program, ha. I was amused that a poster there accused both me and Graham of being Dave Taylor! Because we were slagging the OCC choosing Record Retailer as 'official' for the 60s. I only went over there to read some of Dave's detailed postings, and one day I read something that I felt I needed to rant back about, hence joining up. These days I only check into Buzzjack sporadically, to see if there's something unique there...

                                        Edit: Well, I just found a thread on Buzzjack from April 2008, dealing with the end of the MRIB charts, where Trevs, Dave, and Brian are all talking back and forth to each other. And Robbie is in there too! So maybe they are not the same person after all? Hmmm...
                                        BiB: no worry, I just like being nosey! I've never thought you were any of the other posters... I just noticed the poster "Finchingfield" and thought "could this be Robin from ukmix"!

                                        Yup, I read that thread you mentioned about the end of the MRIB charts just a few days ago. What made me laugh was just two or three years after then, someone from MRIB said they had never compiled a Singles chart - the staff must have been new and didn't realise that compiling the Singles charts for Record Business was how they had started in 1981... sadly I think MRIB have now gone out of business.

                                        Comment


                                        • #70
                                          I believe MRIB have now been taken over by the OCC!!
                                          Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                          Comment


                                          • #71
                                            Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
                                            I believe MRIB have now been taken over by the OCC!!
                                            Not true. MRIB stopped compiling music charts around late 2007 or early 2008 but did continue for a while compiling DVD and video charts as well as providing entertainment content services for websites, mobile phone companies and print media. However the recession that hit in 2008 saw the company go bust and it ceased trading.

                                            https://companycheck.co.uk/company/0...ies-house-data

                                            Comment


                                            • #72
                                              I contacted Neil again at Popscene, gave him all the evidence I had gathered from 4 others (in post #54 above) for "House of the Rising Sun" by The Animals being #1 on Top of the Pops for 1 July 1964. Neil made the change on this Popscene TOTP weekly show listing, swapping "It's Over" by Roy Orbison to #2.

                                              Thanks to all, that was a fun investigation of BBC chart history. Groovy baby, yeah !!

                                              Comment


                                              • #73
                                                I always thought it was disappointing when these shows ended with a joint number one. I think the 'fastest riser' rule should have been applied as a tiebreaker to the top position as well.

                                                Looking at the many joint no. 1s, with one exception, this would have resulted in the no. 1 for the following week being sole no. 1 a week earlier. I think this would have made sense anyway because by the time TOTP and POTP were broadcast this would have been the fastest selling record.

                                                The exception would have resulted in Dance On by the Shadows being sole no. 1 for one week. But again, because of the time lag before broadcast, I think it would have been fair to have the 'up and coming' contender at the top alone rather than sharing the position with one at the end of its run.

                                                Comment


                                                • #74
                                                  I would respectfully beg to disagree on tiebreakers. The purpose of a weekly chart is to report what happened for the most recent week, not to mix it up with data from the prior week. If a chart methodology results in ties, so be it. If a tiebreaker is forced between 2 records looking at the prior week, the odds of 'getting it right' are only 50%.

                                                  The BBC mostly had tie breakers for position 20 (and later #30), the reason being they wanted to feature only 20 records for POTP/TOTP. They later added the #1 tie breaker rule in 1964 (because the Record Retailer chart was so out of alignment with the other charts when calculating the BBC average, especially so with #1 debuts), but only when a tie could be broken. I.e., if there were 4 charts to average, and one record was #1 on 3 charts, and another #1 on one chart, the 3 charts #1 would get the BBC #1. But if it was equal, 2 vs. 2, then they allowed a tie at #1.

                                                  One of the major problems with the Record Retailer chart was that they forced tiebreakers by looking at the previous week. They thought this would be a good thing, but it turns out it hurt their credibility as a chart (in addition to sampling the fewest number of record shops). Dave Taylor discovered that The Beatles 'Please Please Me' actually tied at #1 on the RR chart, but RR forced a tiebreaker, and demoted it to #2. Dave says the same thing happened with The Rolling Stones "19th Nervous Breakdown." And I'm sure it happened with a lot of #1's on RR. If RR hadn't forced these ties, they would have been in more agreement with the other charts of the day, and thus less resistance for them as the 'official' chart for the 60s.

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                                                  • #75
                                                    Thanks for your reply - perhaps I have misunderstood some things.

                                                    First, I thought the BBC did tiebreak as a rule for positions below no. 1. Otherwise they would have had too many tied positions, as you would expect when using only 3 or 4 sources.

                                                    Second, I thought that the tiebreaker method both the BBC and RR used was to place higher the faster riser, or slower faller, and only have a tie if they both rose or fell (or stayed put) equally.

                                                    But if RR used this tiebreaker rule between Wayward Wind and Please Please Me then Please Please Me would have won. Similarly 19th Nervous Breakdown as the challenger would also have won.

                                                    The RR seemed to lag behind the other charts; often a record arrived at no. 1 the week after it did on NME and MM. So one way of looking at the BBC applying a tiebreaker for no. 1 is that it would have avoided the RR 'drag' effect - which they saw the merit of doing for Beatles releases anyway.

                                                    I don't really have a problem with RR tiebreaking itself if it resulted in lagging behind less. But if it had a tiebreaking system that favoured the incumbent (e.g. Wayward Wind over Please Please Me) then I agree that doesn't make sense and would contribute to it lagging behind.

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