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  • #31
    Yes, it's certainly not a Natural Selection mechanism. Sorry.
    I'll inform myself better before commenting again.
    I am the maniac, I am the ghoul
    I'm in the shadows in the corners of my room

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    • #32
      To be honest this topic is difficult for me. I can imagine homosexuality for example being genetic. But I don't know
      I am not trying to seduce you... Would you like me to seduce you? Is that what you're trying to tell me?

      Comment


      • #33
        There are plenty of fascinating articles out there which explore the relationship between homosexuality and natural selection. I've picked a couple of examples:

        Article 1
        Article 2

        It's mostly theoretical because scientists have yet to understand the full complexities of our genetics, but these theories do demonstrate that are plenty of plausible explanations for how homosexuality has evolved in humans.

        However, as I said at the beginning of this thread, sexuality is not the same thing as gender. This thread is about understanding our biological sex and our self-identification within the gender spectrum. Sexuality is of course linked very strongly within this discussion, but it is not the same thing.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Airwrecka
          There are plenty of fascinating articles out there which explore the relationship between homosexuality and natural selection. I picked a couple of examples:

          Article 1
          Article 2

          It's mostly theoretical because scientists have yet to understand the full complexities of our genetics, but these theories do demonstrate that are plenty of plausible explanations for how homosexuality has evolved in humans.

          However, as I said at the beginning of this thread, sexuality is not the same thing as gender. This thread is about understanding our biological sex and our self-identification within the gender spectrum. Sexuality is of course linked very strongly within this discussion, but it is not the same thing.
          Oh, I do agree homosexuality must have developed by Natural Selection for one reason or another but I was absolutely disagreeing it was as a method of population control. There must be some biological advantage to having the gene or it would most likely have resulted in an evolutionary dead end.
          It might sound like I'm an unapologetic bitch
          But sometimes you know I gotta call it like it is

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          • #35
            Natural Selection is only one evolutionary "pathway", there are plenty more.
            I am the maniac, I am the ghoul
            I'm in the shadows in the corners of my room

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            • #36
              Originally posted by BLover
              Natural Selection is only one evolutionary "pathway", there are plenty more.
              Yes, but you two were talking about natural selection, so I extended my contribution accordingly.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by BLover
                Natural Selection is only one evolutionary "pathway", there are plenty more.
                Even if it developed by mutation it would still ultimately be selected for by natural selection, it is the main driving force behind evolution.
                It might sound like I'm an unapologetic bitch
                But sometimes you know I gotta call it like it is

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Madgefan
                  Originally posted by BLover
                  Natural Selection is only one evolutionary "pathway", there are plenty more.
                  Even if it developed by mutation it would still ultimately be selected for by natural selection, it is the main driving force behind evolution.
                  hmmm not necessarily. Genetic drift, for instance.
                  This is a complicated issue.
                  I am the maniac, I am the ghoul
                  I'm in the shadows in the corners of my room

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by BLover
                    Originally posted by Madgefan
                    Originally posted by BLover
                    Natural Selection is only one evolutionary "pathway", there are plenty more.
                    Even if it developed by mutation it would still ultimately be selected for by natural selection, it is the main driving force behind evolution.
                    hmmm not necessarily. Genetic drift, for instance.
                    This is a complicated issue.
                    I think we need an evolution thread, we are kind of going off the topic of gender identity now
                    It might sound like I'm an unapologetic bitch
                    But sometimes you know I gotta call it like it is

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Too in depth for my brain guys. Are you scientists or something?
                      My tits are made of silicone, just like the Earth and sea...

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by CrazyCrazy
                        Too in depth for my brain guys. Are you scientists or something?
                        Used to be
                        It might sound like I'm an unapologetic bitch
                        But sometimes you know I gotta call it like it is

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by CrazyCrazy
                          Too in depth for my brain guys. Are you scientists or something?
                          I have a degree in Biological Diversity.

                          It's actually refreshing to have a scientific debate on here.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by BLover
                            Originally posted by Madgefan
                            Originally posted by BLover
                            Natural Selection is only one evolutionary "pathway", there are plenty more.
                            Even if it developed by mutation it would still ultimately be selected for by natural selection, it is the main driving force behind evolution.
                            hmmm not necessarily. Genetic drift, for instance.
                            This is a complicated issue.

                            Eeek your theory here is so flawed though
                            Forever Young

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                            • #44
                              There clearly is a lot of confusion in the population between gender and sexuality.
                              But it does need to be said that those who are gay are not confused about their gender. They are happy about being male or female they just are attracted to the same sex as them.
                              Whereas a person with a gender issue is not happy being the gender their body suggests they are.

                              It used to be thought that Natural selection was based on the survival of the fittest. Those strong enough to survive would pass on their genes to the next generation. But we now think that is not the case. For example the Lion is seen as the ultimate example of the later explanation. But the other view states that the Lion would actually go extinct for being precisely that. Since it would kill all around that are weak, leaving nothing for it to feed on!

                              I personally see that in terms of human beings that the genetic development in us is the brain. Which has been getting more powerful all the time we have been around. In fact the rest of the body is simply geared up to keep this organ active and healthy. It's very clear that it controls every bit of us. If it thinks for example that it is the wrong body it will do it's best to make the individual lousy about themselves, enduring great pain, just to get the body looking like it wants to be.

                              The rest of the human body is actually stagnant as far as development is concerned. Most of the body of the modern human was set up to deal with when humans where hunter gatherers. It can't cope with sugar. Since sugar was in short supply 10,000 years ago (incidentally its great brain food). It has a mechanism to switch off the hunger mechanism, but only if you eat large quantities of protein (meat). But none for "bread" products. Teeth are designed only to last till your 30. With no more replacements. Despite the fact most of us live much longer that that. Stress a big killer now, is simply based on the fact we can't run away from those Lions out there, like we once could.
                              Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

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                              • #45
                                I took back what I said loveguru. I don't think I was right to start with, and I don't think it's well explained by Natural selection.
                                I am the maniac, I am the ghoul
                                I'm in the shadows in the corners of my room

                                Comment


                                • #46
                                  The whole issue of gender as a social construct is quite interesting, but the fact that so many people still confuse gender and sexuality is just sad.
                                  Waffles are checked cookies

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                                  • #47
                                    I won't really go into the gender thing much because that is so complicated to me and I don't know a lot about it, I understand some people have gender dysphoria which explains the transgender person. I do think some of the labels people put on themselves seem to contradict each other though...like how can you be transgender and non binary at the same time? Does that actually make any sense?

                                    One theory I heard about why people are gay is to do with the high levels of oestrogen or testosterone they were exposed to in the womb, just one theory. I believe we are born gay or born with something in our makeup which determines that later on but I'm open to learning more about it, it's interesting to me.
                                    My tits are made of silicone, just like the Earth and sea...

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                                    • #48
                                      Originally posted by ArmyOfMe View Post
                                      Misogyny and homophobia exist in society because we're genderified, but that's only my opinion.

                                      I didn't wanna describe anything as a sin, sorry if it came off that way
                                      Yes!

                                      People are legit scared of the gender cuz they don't understand it and write it off as some new age talk, when in fact, it's such a complex topic closely tied with so many other social justice topics.

                                      For starters, gender is not binary nor it has anything to do with your sex.

                                      Secondly, the anti trans movement have weaponized biology as a science. The topic around how biology came to exist, who were the people who started it, what was the ideology behind it and how eurocentric it is needs to happen.

                                      Looking forward to education. Discussion? We don't know her, people's existence is not up for a debate.
                                      be kind to every kind (also the unkind kind!!!!! )

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                                      • #49
                                        Also, trans women are biologically women, but they are of biological male sex.



                                        I should stop for now before I go a bit deeper into this topic.
                                        Last edited by Serby; Sun June 30th, 2019, 21:15.
                                        be kind to every kind (also the unkind kind!!!!! )

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                                        • #50
                                          For those who want to follow amazing gender justice educators, follow Ericka Hart for starters. They are amazing! How gender intersects with race and can't be discussed in a vacuum is what you'll find there.

                                          be kind to every kind (also the unkind kind!!!!! )

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                                          • #51
                                            Also, what better place than this thread to announce that from now on, I use they/them pronouns along with he/him.
                                            be kind to every kind (also the unkind kind!!!!! )

                                            Comment


                                            • #52
                                              Originally posted by Serby View Post
                                              Yes!

                                              People are legit scared of the gender cuz they don't understand it and write it off as some new age talk, when in fact, it's such a complex topic closely tied with so many other social justice topics.

                                              For starters, gender is not binary nor it has anything to do with your sex.

                                              Secondly, the anti trans movement have weaponized biology as a science. The topic around how biology came to exist, who were the people who started it, what was the ideology behind it and how eurocentric it is needs to happen.

                                              Looking forward to education. Discussion? We don't know her, people's existence is not up for a debate.
                                              What you're preaching here is nothing more then ideology, with no substract of reality.

                                              If gender has nothing to do with biological sex, why are there people willing to change their anatomy to match with the gender they identify with? Gender is not simply "assigned at birth". There is a very small percentage of people who identify with the gender opposite to their biological sex, but this is the exception. And yes, there are people who are biologically intersex or hermaphrodite. But the fact that people can be born with various types of anomalies doesn't change the fact that healthy human bodies are either male or female, and that is the natural condition for human procreation.

                                              Also, the whole "in western culture" thing is nothing but delusional BS. People are categorized in male or female in every human culture, because that's not a cultural invention, but human nature, matter of fact.

                                              It is precisely western middle class people, without much real problems in life, who invent those silly "non-binary femme" identities. That's artificial and ideological. It has nothing to do with social justice, in fact it distracts people from the real injustices. That's why it only appears in middle class people tryng to look special or opressed.

                                              In other words, silly new age hippie non-sense. No wonder most people who believe that crap also believe in astrology, talk to plants, etc.

                                              Comment


                                              • #53
                                                I think there will come a time where identifying oneself to a certain gender will be offensive. It just goes way beyond the spectrum to a point where there may be some people who will fight for rights in favor of dating plants and animals or even non-living things.

                                                Comment


                                                • #54
                                                  Originally posted by joao View Post
                                                  What you're preaching here is nothing more then ideology, with no substract of reality.

                                                  If gender has nothing to do with biological sex, why are there people willing to change their anatomy to match with the gender they identify with? Gender is not simply "assigned at birth". There is a very small percentage of people who identify with the gender opposite to their biological sex, but this is the exception. And yes, there are people who are biologically intersex or hermaphrodite. But the fact that people can be born with various types of anomalies doesn't change the fact that healthy human bodies are either male or female, and that is the natural condition for human procreation.

                                                  Also, the whole "in western culture" thing is nothing but delusional BS. People are categorized in male or female in every human culture, because that's not a cultural invention, but human nature, matter of fact.

                                                  It is precisely western middle class people, without much real problems in life, who invent those silly "non-binary femme" identities. That's artificial and ideological. It has nothing to do with social justice, in fact it distracts people from the real injustices. That's why it only appears in middle class people tryng to look special or opressed.

                                                  In other words, silly new age hippie non-sense. No wonder most people who believe that crap also believe in astrology, talk to plants, etc.
                                                  Nice to see some rational logic and common sense, Serby is too much sometimes and clearly gets his talking points from the “how to be a good liberal” handbook, saying your opinion like it’s fact and everyone should just agree and if not they are bad people why would any rational person just dismiss biology altogether (which is undeniable) in favour for an ideology?

                                                  There is also such a thing as someone who thinks they are a disabled person in a non disabled body...I mean..if that isn’t a psychological thing I do not know what is. I actually don’t care what someone identifies as, as it doesn’t hurt me and they are free to do what they want and I’d respect that person and refer to them in public as they identify as I’m polite... it’s just this horrible attitude that comes from some people, stop bullying people into believing things that they don’t have to, that’s a big problem.

                                                  There are so many things I could list here that liberal people are trying to push that I can’t understand but I’d be here all day. Anyone heard of theybies?...raising children to be confused...is progressive?

                                                  Also nobody answered my question about how being non binary and transgender at the same time makes sense?

                                                  What do people think about transgender people competing against biological women/men in sports? Logic tells me that generally the transgender women would have a physical advantage over the women and that is not fair right? No SJW rubbish please.
                                                  My tits are made of silicone, just like the Earth and sea...

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                                                  • #55
                                                    Just to make things clear, I don´t have a problem with sexual minorities and with people who don´t identify with their sex of birth. In fact, I believe every person should be allowed to make their own choices concerning sex, identity, clothes, etc, as long as everything that is done between people is consensual and doesn´t involve infants or adolescents.

                                                    However, I do feel that minorities are being manipulated for political gain, and this has nothing to do with seeking justice. Otherwise, why would all big companies and billionaires all jump in these progressive causes? If this was really about subverting the current order of power, you´d expect people on top of the game to shy away from it, and not to fund these causes with millions of their money.

                                                    But big companies benefit from identity politics. They don´t want strong cultures, strong nations or strong families, but only individuals desperately searching for an identity. This leads to massive consumption, and weaker cultures and states make it easier for big companies to push whatever they want into consumers. In fact, these companies are dictating what people should believe and how they should act in a way that not even religions have done in the past, it´s frightening! They are funding pseudo-sciences like "gender studies" and criminalising dissent.

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                                                    • #56
                                                      I have a lot to say on this topic but let me just say that sex is undeniable. You can identify with whoever you want but that won't change your body. It won't change your internal organs, your hormones and the fact that you can carry a baby or not. Biological women have the reproductive system to carry a baby, biological men don't. That's the difference. This has several health and structural implications.
                                                      [MENTION=17831]CrazyCrazy[/MENTION] non-binary is the opposite of transgender in my opinion. Transgender is about changing boxes, non-binary is about jumping out.

                                                      This is a very sensitive topic, but I am in favour of people being free to be themselves without having to conform to boxes. But I am not in favour of delusion.

                                                      I also think that all this talk is both confusing to people, makes the movement lose credibility and takes away from very important issues.
                                                      I am the maniac, I am the ghoul
                                                      I'm in the shadows in the corners of my room

                                                      Comment


                                                      • #57
                                                        *inhales deeply* [MENTION=2355]joao[/MENTION]

                                                        Ignorance really is a blessing I guess. Talking about ideology as if we are not living in world made out of harmful ideologies already. The way you don't question the world as it is is scary, you take it as organic and as if it shaped into what is now by itself.
                                                        Last edited by Serby; Thu July 11th, 2019, 15:26.
                                                        be kind to every kind (also the unkind kind!!!!! )

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                                                        • #58
                                                          Originally posted by DnBLover View Post
                                                          I have a lot to say on this topic but let me just say that sex is undeniable. You can identify with whoever you want but that won't change your body. It won't change your internal organs, your hormones and the fact that you can carry a baby or not. Biological women have the reproductive system to carry a baby, biological men don't. That's the difference. This has several health and structural implications.
                                                          [MENTION=17831]CrazyCrazy[/MENTION] non-binary is the opposite of transgender in my opinion. Transgender is about changing boxes, non-binary is about jumping out.

                                                          This is a very sensitive topic, but I am in favour of people being free to be themselves without having to conform to boxes. But I am not in favour of delusion.

                                                          I also think that all this talk is both confusing to people, makes the movement lose credibility and takes away from very important issues.
                                                          !
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                                                          #KING

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                                                          • #59
                                                            Also, capitalist coopting the movements for their personal gain is just pink/green/whatever washing and that logic is just so faulty.
                                                            be kind to every kind (also the unkind kind!!!!! )

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                                                            • #60
                                                              Let's say that I'm on the more conservative side of the political spectrum and my opinion of gender identities and issues in general may differ from @Serby's. But unlike during my first stop of UKMix, I've grown to be tolerant of points of view that differ from my personal one. So while I tend to side with the likes of @joao or @CrazyCrazy in that regard, I have to say that I wouldn't want to change anyone's state of mind in that regard. So if @Serby considers this topic a relevant one for his personal life situation, that's gotta be cool for me as long as he, on the other hand, doesn't expect me to do similar - as a sign of mutual respect, you know.
                                                              Is it offensive to fall in love with you and everything you do
                                                              and everything you stand for?
                                                              Could I break through your invisible wall, could I hide my pride for once,
                                                              just to tell you that I see more?

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