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  • The idea that somehow some humans can control everything that is happening stems from the fact that most humans see themselves as not animals (that is, a higher being), and somehow feel that we have the power to control everything. Also, humans need reasons for everything, they can hardly deal with concepts such as randomness, uncertainty or probability. So it's only normal that people will try to justify everything and always try to connect the dots... Even when those connections are ridiculously unlikely.

    At the end of the day, many people are dying and hospitals are flooding. Excess deaths are occurring on top of that for the most varied reasons. All governments are taking a toll on this and forced to make decisions which lower their approval ratings. Some industries are gaining, but they are the minority and the economy is taking a huge toll. But somehow there is a justification for everything. Too much Hollywood it appears.
    I am the maniac, I am the ghoul
    I'm in the shadows in the corners of my room

    Comment


    • Originally posted by jio View Post

      That's a great answer... unfortunately it is answering to something I never said ("time to return to normal")
      you said that the virus is dramatized and unnecessarily blown out of proportion. And I reacted by stating that people are dying like flies and that without measures... more people would have died.

      It's also far from over. Scientific estimates show that almost 400,000 people in Germany could die of it until the pandemic is over. We're currently at a mere 13,000 deaths here.

      This Corona virus will eventually come close to the deaths of WW1 and that's not just me being overly dramatic, that's what the forecast is estimating... 5-10 million deaths.
      My Chart

      Comment


      • The problem jio is that you are giving governments too much credit, and that you think that they are somehow competent.
        Another problem is that you are mixing government information with independent scientific studies.

        We live in a capitalist system so of course there will always be someone profiting off catastrophes, but that doesn't mean they conjured them.
        I am the maniac, I am the ghoul
        I'm in the shadows in the corners of my room

        Comment


        • Originally posted by DnBLover View Post
          The problem jio is that you are giving governments too much credit, and that you think that they are somehow competent.
          Another problem is that you are mixing government information with independent scientific studies.

          We live in a capitalist system so of course there will always be someone profiting off catastrophes, but that doesn't mean they conjured them.
          But I am not doubting the existence of this virus or its destructive potential. I am doubting the government responses on this and its political, economic and health consequences. So of course I am going to be including government information.

          Also I am not sure where I suggested that governments somehow conjure and collude in this? I don't think I ever suggested a massive conspiracy theory that all governments are a part of.
          jio CHARTS NOW: 19/1/2021: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10543721

          Comment


          • Originally posted by stevyy View Post

            you said that the virus is dramatized and unnecessarily blown out of proportion. And I reacted by stating that people are dying like flies and that without measures... more people would have died.

            It's also far from over. Scientific estimates show that almost 400,000 people in Germany could die of it until the pandemic is over. We're currently at a mere 13,000 deaths here.

            This Corona virus will eventually come close to the deaths of WW1 and that's not just me being overly dramatic, that's what the forecast is estimating... 5-10 million deaths.
            People are dying like flies?
            jio CHARTS NOW: 19/1/2021: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10543721

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DnBLover View Post
              The idea that somehow some humans can control everything that is happening stems from the fact that most humans see themselves as not animals (that is, a higher being), and somehow feel that we have the power to control everything. Also, humans need reasons for everything, they can hardly deal with concepts such as randomness, uncertainty or probability. So it's only normal that people will try to justify everything and always try to connect the dots... Even when those connections are ridiculously unlikely.

              At the end of the day, many people are dying and hospitals are flooding. Excess deaths are occurring on top of that for the most varied reasons. All governments are taking a toll on this and forced to make decisions which lower their approval ratings. Some industries are gaining, but they are the minority and the economy is taking a huge toll. But somehow there is a justification for everything. Too much Hollywood it appears.
              See, that's another example of using characterizations instead of arguments to win a debate. That's not how civilized people discuss love.
              jio CHARTS NOW: 19/1/2021: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10543721

              Comment


              • stevyy : Roundabout 1 mio. people die each year in Germany alone. Is there any indication that more people than usual die? If not, then it's just a shift of causes of death.
                Is it offensive to fall in love with you and everything you do
                and everything you stand for?
                Could I break through your invisible wall, could I hide my pride for once,
                just to tell you that I see more?

                Comment


                • It is getting scary again.

                  So my dad, only living grandmother, aunt and uncle all have Covid. My grandmother went thru the emergency room to get tested. She is home now. I've decided to stay home for the Holidays.
                  Diva!!!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by TIfan View Post
                    It is getting scary again.

                    So my dad, only living grandmother, aunt and uncle all have Covid. My grandmother went thru the emergency room to get tested. She is home now. I've decided to stay home for the Holidays.
                    Let's hope that your familie is getting well! But yeah, after all that you've been through, your family definitely seems to be hunted!
                    Is it offensive to fall in love with you and everything you do
                    and everything you stand for?
                    Could I break through your invisible wall, could I hide my pride for once,
                    just to tell you that I see more?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by TIfan View Post
                      It is getting scary again.

                      So my dad, only living grandmother, aunt and uncle all have Covid. My grandmother went thru the emergency room to get tested. She is home now. I've decided to stay home for the Holidays.
                      I hope they all get through this fine. It is a lot more dangerous for older people.
                      jio CHARTS NOW: 19/1/2021: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10543721

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by jio View Post

                        Well, firstly it has to be said that using the "anti-vax" and "conspiracy theory" and "crazy" words, just means you are not willing to consider the possibility of an alternative reading of things. And such things make every debate weak. Having taken 5 shots of 3 types of vaccines only last year I am certainly not an anti-vax in any sense of the word.
                        Your assumptions do you a disservice and do nothing but give you yet another platform on which to be judged. My language is always intentional and does not demonstrate my unwillingness to see an alternative view - it is a consequence of exploring and dismissing them.

                        Anti-vaxxers are a danger to society. I genuinely believe that. I accept people being cautious and having concerns over a new vaccination, but I’m not a fan of the people who are against all vaccinations.

                        Sadly this is their moment to shine and the biggest event they’ll ever have to spread fear and doubt over genuine advances in live saving medical care.

                        Secondly, the reason why most people question this is because many of the measures taken are grossly counterproductive so people are unable to understand how they fit in the larger "saving peoples' lives" mantra.
                        At the start of the pandemic hospitals were not a safe environment due to the uncertainty around the virus. That has now changed and hospitals are prepared to deal with non COVID-19 treatment alongside COVID-19 needs too.

                        However there is a finite number of medical staff able to treat the sick - something many people overlook. I’m not a medical professional but the idea is to save lives - and in times of trouble, save the most number of lives.

                        People overlook this because it doesn’t fit in with their narratives, but more people were saved (based on hospital admissions) with COVID-19 than those who sadly died from other illnesses. Hard decisions had to be made that most people have never experienced in peace time, but it’s a symptom of the modern world that people feel outrageous at things without context.

                        People with common sense and rationale are a dying breed. Just look at Twitter and it’s cancel culture, and to an extent, it’s Woke Warriors.

                        Finally, there is a history of governments lying in every part of the world and a history of governments aiming to reduce freedoms.
                        Again, there is no rationale to any government attempting to reduce your freedom. What do they get out of it? In the UK my only current restrictions are leisure activities that take place outside of my own home.

                        The idea of businesses closing down and governments paying unemployment benefits was never logical, yet it was practiced in all the bailed-out economies of the EU and was called a success despite increasing the public debt everywhere and leading to unprecedented levels of poverty, so it wouldn't be unheard of.
                        The EU has a way of claiming everything was a success. Except Brexit.

                        Governments need taxes. It’s as simple as that. They cannot continue to pay wages and have no source of revenue themselves. No country is going to self sabotage itself... well, except perhaps North Korea.

                        I just keep questioning everything on the level of debating because all these seem illogical to my brain. Notice that's in stark contrast with many others who apparently do not question anything, yet they take out the mask everywhere they can.

                        That said, I do not accept from anyone to tell me what I can or cannot think or what I can or cannot debate. So your post is rejected my dear friend thanks to those 3 words/expressions you sadly used
                        Again, your assumptions do you a discredit. I don’t really see how I told you what you can and cannot think - having my own opinions on groups with ideologies within society that I disagree with is perfectly acceptable and it was my own opinions that I voiced.

                        If you take that as a personal attack - especially when I didn’t aim anything at you - then by all means do so, as there’s nothing I can do about it.

                        However I would say that your post was most illuminating - not in an informational sense, but the fact you seem to believe the government is evil, using the virus to kill people, plunge people into poverty and to remove your freedoms... yet still follow the rules and encourage others to do so.

                        Doesn’t that make you a hypocrite?
                        Queuing for Girls Aloud reunion tickets since 2013

                        #FreeBritney

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jio View Post

                          See, that's another example of using characterizations instead of arguments to win a debate. That's not how civilized people discuss love.
                          That was a reflection, not an argument.
                          I am the maniac, I am the ghoul
                          I'm in the shadows in the corners of my room

                          Comment


                          • I haven't posted this here but my grandfather died of Covid. He was in a nursing home where there was an outbreak. He first tested negative, then 4 days later positive, then fever, then breathing complications, and he passed away within 2 days of developing respiratory infection. Out of 50 infected, 7 had died within the first 10 days of the outbreak. My grandfather was in the hospital alone for the whole week, oir family could not visit him and could call the doctors once a day. That was pretty rough, even more so considering the massive restrictions to visit him since March. We got no goodbye.

                            Just a testimony.
                            I am the maniac, I am the ghoul
                            I'm in the shadows in the corners of my room

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by menime123 View Post

                              Your assumptions do you a disservice and do nothing but give you yet another platform on which to be judged. My language is always intentional and does not demonstrate my unwillingness to see an alternative view - it is a consequence of exploring and dismissing them.

                              Anti-vaxxers are a danger to society. I genuinely believe that. I accept people being cautious and having concerns over a new vaccination, but I’m not a fan of the people who are against all vaccinations.

                              Sadly this is their moment to shine and the biggest event they’ll ever have to spread fear and doubt over genuine advances in live saving medical care.
                              My problem with you mentioning the "anti-vaxer" word in relation to my post is that I agree that they are a menace to society and that by intentionally connecting my ideas to those, you are essentially weakening unfairly my argument. That is what I protest about. I do not think you are personally attacking me, I do think however you use words-characterisations with a negative implication (such as "conspiracy theory", "anti-vax", "crazy", "too much hollywood") in order to weaken an argument without really debating it. I don't really think I have anything else to say here because I am not an anti-vax at all.


                              Originally posted by menime123 View Post
                              At the start of the pandemic hospitals were not a safe environment due to the uncertainty around the virus. That has now changed and hospitals are prepared to deal with non COVID-19 treatment alongside COVID-19 needs too.

                              However there is a finite number of medical staff able to treat the sick - something many people overlook. I’m not a medical professional but the idea is to save lives - and in times of trouble, save the most number of lives.

                              People overlook this because it doesn’t fit in with their narratives, but more people were saved (based on hospital admissions) with COVID-19 than those who sadly died from other illnesses. Hard decisions had to be made that most people have never experienced in peace time, but it’s a symptom of the modern world that people feel outrageous at things without context.

                              People with common sense and rationale are a dying breed. Just look at Twitter and it’s cancel culture, and to an extent, it’s Woke Warriors.
                              There are cancer patients being turned away right now from operations. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. You can find plenty of news reports about this from UK, Israel, definitely Greece and Cyprus, France, Italy, you name it. Also I am not sure if you are suggesting that but it is generally not accepted policy to treat Covid patients in the same facilities with non-Covid patients because patients of other diseases are very much at risk if they get covid. So given that you made at least one or possibly two wrong assumptions here, I will not bother with the rest of the argument. I am also not interested on Twitter arguments.

                              Originally posted by menime123 View Post
                              Again, there is no rationale to any government attempting to reduce your freedom. What do they get out of it? In the UK my only current restrictions are leisure activities that take place outside of my own home.
                              Sorry but this is not up for debate. Most governments would try to reduce your freedoms. It's something that goes with power and control. That's why you have grievances, protests and revolutions.


                              Originally posted by menime123 View Post
                              The EU has a way of claiming everything was a success. Except Brexit.

                              Governments need taxes. It’s as simple as that. They cannot continue to pay wages and have no source of revenue themselves. No country is going to self sabotage itself... well, except perhaps North Korea..
                              I did not say they can do it forever. But right now there are very few governments that are actually making the choice. Most governments are taking measures due to the political pressure of needing to be seen doing something and most are immitating others.


                              Originally posted by menime123 View Post
                              Again, your assumptions do you a discredit. I don’t really see how I told you what you can and cannot think - having my own opinions on groups with ideologies within society that I disagree with is perfectly acceptable and it was my own opinions that I voiced.

                              If you take that as a personal attack - especially when I didn’t aim anything at you - then by all means do so, as there’s nothing I can do about it.

                              However I would say that your post was most illuminating - not in an informational sense, but the fact you seem to believe the government is evil, using the virus to kill people, plunge people into poverty and to remove your freedoms... yet still follow the rules and encourage others to do so.

                              Doesn’t that make you a hypocrite?
                              As I said I did not think it's a personal attack. But I think it is unwarranted to classify my opinions within those of fringe groups in order to discredit them without debating. That's what I protested about. Also, no, it does not make me a hypocrite. It makes me someone who does not pretend to know everything, yet poses questions and prefers to remain on the safe side just in case I am wrong. I consider myself a thinking person because I have doubt. Maybe you should have too
                              jio CHARTS NOW: 19/1/2021: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10543721

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DnBLover View Post
                                I haven't posted this here but my grandfather died of Covid. He was in a nursing home where there was an outbreak. He first tested negative, then 4 days later positive, then fever, then breathing complications, and he passed away within 2 days of developing respiratory infection. Out of 50 infected, 7 had died within the first 10 days of the outbreak. My grandfather was in the hospital alone for the whole week, oir family could not visit him and could call the doctors once a day. That was pretty rough, even more so considering the massive restrictions to visit him since March. We got no goodbye.

                                Just a testimony.
                                First of all I am sorry about your grandfather. However I would like to comment on this.
                                It is a well known fact that Covid affects mainly (or at least much more) the older people, what is less known is that there has been some research both in the USA and the EU that showed that the number of Covid deaths in long-term care facilities (such as nursing homes) can be anywhere from 40% and up of total deaths if the nursing homes are infected to the same degree as the population outside of them. Which means that the logical response would be focusing there but I am not sure if that is actually happening
                                jio CHARTS NOW: 19/1/2021: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10543721

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by DnBLover View Post

                                  That was a reflection, not an argument.
                                  OK
                                  jio CHARTS NOW: 19/1/2021: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10543721

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by TIfan View Post
                                    It is getting scary again.

                                    So my dad, only living grandmother, aunt and uncle all have Covid. My grandmother went thru the emergency room to get tested. She is home now. I've decided to stay home for the Holidays.
                                    Wish your family the best and a speedy recovery honey.
                                    Cha Cha Instructor

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by DnBLover View Post
                                      I haven't posted this here but my grandfather died of Covid. He was in a nursing home where there was an outbreak. He first tested negative, then 4 days later positive, then fever, then breathing complications, and he passed away within 2 days of developing respiratory infection. Out of 50 infected, 7 had died within the first 10 days of the outbreak. My grandfather was in the hospital alone for the whole week, oir family could not visit him and could call the doctors once a day. That was pretty rough, even more so considering the massive restrictions to visit him since March. We got no goodbye.

                                      Just a testimony.
                                      Sorry to hear about your grandfather.

                                      My father was hospitalized on August 9 and i didn't see him again until he died on September 13. I know how hurtful it is to not being able to say goodbye. He didn't die because of covid though, he didn't leave house until the beginning of March till the night he was hospitalized.
                                      Cha Cha Instructor

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by jio View Post
                                        But I think it is unwarranted to classify my opinions within those of fringe groups in order to discredit them without debating.
                                        Respectfully I did not quote you, I did not mention you and above all, I do not need to debate with you. My thoughts and opinions are well formed before I commit to them publicly. I stand by what I said. If you see any of that as a personal attack then that is for you to content with, not me, for I have little interest.



                                        Queuing for Girls Aloud reunion tickets since 2013

                                        #FreeBritney

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by menime123 View Post

                                          Respectfully I did not quote you, I did not mention you and above all, I do not need to debate with you. My thoughts and opinions are well formed before I commit to them publicly. I stand by what I said. If you see any of that as a personal attack then that is for you to content with, not me, for I have little interest.
                                          But I already said twice I do not consider any of this as a personal attack...
                                          jio CHARTS NOW: 19/1/2021: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10543721

                                          Comment


                                          • Originally posted by jio View Post

                                            First of all I am sorry about your grandfather. However I would like to comment on this.
                                            It is a well known fact that Covid affects mainly (or at least much more) the older people, what is less known is that there has been some research both in the USA and the EU that showed that the number of Covid deaths in long-term care facilities (such as nursing homes) can be anywhere from 40% and up of total deaths if the nursing homes are infected to the same degree as the population outside of them. Which means that the logical response would be focusing there but I am not sure if that is actually happening
                                            In the case of Portugal I can say that most nursing homes have very few resources and overworked staff which are also underpaid. And I believe we have a lot of them, which makes it very hard to tackle the problem in a country which had just barely managed to get out of recession. The staff is also not trained for this sort of situations, and unfortunately there was no national program for regular testing of these workers. Now the situation seems to be changing, as they are implementing some measures for regular testing.

                                            I am the maniac, I am the ghoul
                                            I'm in the shadows in the corners of my room

                                            Comment


                                            • Originally posted by jio View Post

                                              But I already said twice I do not consider any of this as a personal attack...
                                              Just because you say it, doesn’t make it true.

                                              But isn’t that the point to your posts - that there are lies behind the words people use? That we should all become ‘thinking people’, assessing the information presented and drawing our own conclusions?



                                              Queuing for Girls Aloud reunion tickets since 2013

                                              #FreeBritney

                                              Comment


                                              • Originally posted by menime123 View Post

                                                Just because you say it, doesn’t make it true.

                                                But isn’t that the point to your posts - that there are lies behind the words people use? That we should all become ‘thinking people’, assessing the information presented and drawing our own conclusions?


                                                Definitely we should all become thinking people. Do you disagree with that?
                                                jio CHARTS NOW: 19/1/2021: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...1#post10543721

                                                Comment


                                                • Originally posted by jio View Post

                                                  Definitely we should all become thinking people. Do you disagree with that?
                                                  And if I conclude what you’ve said is a lie, does that mean I’m buying into a conspiracy theory? Or should I just take you at your word when you say you didn’t think it was a personal attack?
                                                  Queuing for Girls Aloud reunion tickets since 2013

                                                  #FreeBritney

                                                  Comment


                                                  • R&B singer Jeremih (age 33) is apparently fighting for his life in ICU with Covid-19.
                                                    I know it's less likely for young people to get badly affected by the virus, but it can still happen and people shouldn't underestimate it.
                                                    "I see it, I like it, I want it... I GOT IT."

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