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  • How about rejecting Covid treatment to those who refuse to get vaccinated without sound reason (immuno compromised, etc), and to those who deny the disease?
    I am the maniac, I am the ghoul
    I'm in the shadows in the corners of my room

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    • Originally posted by InFamous View Post
      France have replaced their lockdown with a night curfew after 8pm to 6am.
      Another stupid decision.
      5.05.2009 / 6.22.2011 / 4.24.2013 / 4.25.2013 / 3.1.2014 / 9.13.2014 / 7.21.2016 / 7.14.2018 / 7.15.2018

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      • What if you guys are asymptomatic and spread the virus to your parents or grandparents and if one of them dies, would you feel guilty?
        Cha Cha Instructor

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        • This is hilarious - Tom Cruise screaming at crew that weren’t social distancing



          Slightly OTT in how he addresses them, but he isn’t wrong. Confirmed as genuine - not fake news. Such a lot of noise from such a little man though!
          Bleep Bloop Blop

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          • Originally posted by spiritboy View Post
            What if you guys are asymptomatic and spread the virus to your parents or grandparents and if one of them dies, would you feel guilty?
            Hope you've always been as cautious about your moves and decisions as bacteria and viral infections have been a thing way before 2020 and might've left you indeed asymptomatic, unlike more vulnerable people.
            Pro: freedom of speech
            Contra: cancel culture

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            • Originally posted by DnBLover View Post
              How about rejecting Covid treatment to those who refuse to get vaccinated without sound reason (immuno compromised, etc), and to those who deny the disease?
              That's essentially a dictatorial view... and it's also nonsense because your "sound reason" is something that cannot be objectively quantified in this case.

              But to put it otherwise... when was the last time you had your tetanus vaccine?
              jio CHARTS NOW: 19/10/2021: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...5#post10765535

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              • Originally posted by jio View Post

                That's essentially a dictatorial view... and it's also nonsense because your "sound reason" is something that cannot be objectively quantified in this case.

                But to put it otherwise... when was the last time you had your tetanus vaccine?
                No, I think it's only fair. You are risking others' lives because you refuse the vaccine. Especially those who cannot be vaccinated. You are potentially compromising the extinction of the virus by refusing to get vaccinated. You propagate unbacked claims throughout the world and lead to other people dying either directly or indirectly.

                Trying to destroy the system at the same time as benefitting from it does not seem fair, does it?

                Tetanus does not spread among people, I don't really see the connection at all. I don't know, but being vaccinated periodically is mandatory in Portugal.

                Besides, if this disease is really not that important, and you are more afraid of getting side effects from the vaccine compared to thevirus, it is a no brainer. Don't take it.
                Last edited by DnBLover; Wed December 16, 2020, 17:23.
                I am the maniac, I am the ghoul
                I'm in the shadows in the corners of my room

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                • Originally posted by DnBLover View Post

                  No, I think it's only fair. You are risking others' lives because you refuse the vaccine. Especially those who cannot be vaccinated. You are potentially compromising the extinction of the virus by refusing to get vaccinated. You propagate unbacked claims throughout the world and lead to other people dying either directly or indirectly.

                  Trying to destroy the system at the same time as benefitting from it does not seem fair, does it?

                  Tetanus does not spread among people, I don't really see the connection at all. I don't know, but being vaccinated periodically is mandatory in Portugal.

                  Besides, if this disease is really not that important, and you are more afraid of getting side effects from the vaccine compared to thevirus, it is a no brainer. Don't take it.
                  People keep trying to make ridiculous connections between coronavirus and completely unrelated things such as smoking, cancer, eating McDonalds, getting hit by a car.
                  Zero tolerance for : bigotry, racism, wilful ignorance.
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                  • Originally posted by theMathematician View Post

                    Hope you've always been as cautious about your moves and decisions as bacteria and viral infections have been a thing way before 2020 and might've left you indeed asymptomatic, unlike more vulnerable people.
                    Don't worry, i've always been careful and respectful towards other people

                    Cha Cha Instructor

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                    • Originally posted by DnBLover View Post

                      No, I think it's only fair. You are risking others' lives because you refuse the vaccine. Especially those who cannot be vaccinated. You are potentially compromising the extinction of the virus by refusing to get vaccinated. You propagate unbacked claims throughout the world and lead to other people dying either directly or indirectly.

                      Trying to destroy the system at the same time as benefitting from it does not seem fair, does it?

                      Tetanus does not spread among people, I don't really see the connection at all. I don't know, but being vaccinated periodically is mandatory in Portugal.

                      Besides, if this disease is really not that important, and you are more afraid of getting side effects from the vaccine compared to thevirus, it is a no brainer. Don't take it.
                      You are actually posing a philosophical issue which is quite irrelevant to how a disease is spread.

                      If it is of paramount importance to save lives, then surely health workers should try to save lives no matter what so any exclusion based on any criteria is unacceptable. Because if you argue that it is unacceptable someone refusing to take the vaccine because that may (a big "may" here) lead to the death of someone else, then how can you consider acceptable a health system refusing to treat a patient and thus causing his death, based on some perverse sense of morality?

                      If on the other hand at issue is helping the system cope, an idea which basically says take the vaccine so the hospitalizations will lessen so that the health system won't collapse, I hear ya but you have to accept that the same is true for any preventable disease. So taking this logic to the extreme, hospitals should refuse to treat any vaccine-preventable disease in people without good reason to avoid the vaccine because they burden the system needlessly. So if you step on a nail while not having done the tetanus vaccine the last 10 years (like most people do), then you shouldn't be treated because you were irresponsible and costing the health system money. Same if you get malaria because you forgot to take those pills as your doctor told you while in Ghana, same if you get anything that is vaccine-preventable because you were not up to date with all your vaccines. Hell, no smokers should ever be treated for cancer either because they knew the risk and they pose such a huge burden to society. What about HIV patients who practiced unprotected sex... should they be treated? surely they knew the risk, yet they chose to burden the system with their behaviour...

                      So you see that your logic is completely illogical.
                      jio CHARTS NOW: 19/10/2021: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...5#post10765535

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                      • Boris has affirmed that Christmas will move ahead with the plans that the government previously confirmed (albeit some minor changes to the devolved nations and their approaches).

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                        • Originally posted by Wayne View Post
                          Boris has affirmed that Christmas will move ahead with the plans that the government previously confirmed (albeit some minor changes to the devolved nations and their approaches).
                          You can have your five days.
                          But don’t use them all.
                          Have a little Christmas.
                          But not a Merry one.
                          You can mix three households.
                          But we suggest you don’t.
                          The rules haven’t changed.
                          But pretend they have.


                          Bleep Bloop Blop

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                          • Originally posted by jio View Post

                            You are actually posing a philosophical issue which is quite irrelevant to how a disease is spread.
                            It is completely relevant to link a denial posture on the virus with the spreading of the virus. Stopping the virus starts upstream, at the social level, not at the hospital.

                            If it is of paramount importance to save lives, then surely health workers should try to save lives no matter what so any exclusion based on any criteria is unacceptable. Because if you argue that it is unacceptable someone refusing to take the vaccine because that may (a big "may" here) lead to the death of someone else, then how can you consider acceptable a health system refusing to treat a patient and thus causing his death, based on some perverse sense of morality?
                            Well but this is happening in several places, including developed countries (not just Italy, several states in the US have recently surpassed maximum ICU capacities and choices have been made based on arbitrary criteria).

                            Because if you argue that it is unacceptable someone refusing to take the vaccine because that may (a big "may" here) lead to the death of someone else, then how can you consider acceptable a health system refusing to treat a patient and thus causing his death, based on some perverse sense of morality?
                            Obviously I don't really support this, although I would fully support it in terms of triage of patients waiting to get a ventilator. One refused a vaccine, the other could not take it. Choose the one who could not take the vaccine instead. One had a choice, the other did not.

                            If on the other hand at issue is helping the system cope, an idea which basically says take the vaccine so the hospitalizations will lessen so that the health system won't collapse, I hear ya but you have to accept that the same is true for any preventable disease. So taking this logic to the extreme, hospitals should refuse to treat any vaccine-preventable disease in people without good reason to avoid the vaccine because they burden the system needlessly...
                            Well this is an extreme situation. It is a global unprecedented pandemic which is taking a toll on society itself, unlike anything seen in modern times. As long as the system can cope with it, treat everyone obviously. Most people who refuse to take the vaccine will be ignorant, possibly due to a social disadvantage to start with. But it's not just about not getting sick to not clog the health system. That is massively important, we all agree on that. It's also the fact that a lot of people are dying unnecessarily (directly due to Covid, in addition to the collateral damage). Those are extra deaths and suffering, regardless of hospital clogging.


                            But you are saying I have a perverted sense of morality. For me, the highest immorality is refusing to take the vaccine and fight a collective virus which affects everyone one of us every single day of our current lives. If you are going to keep adding to the chaos which is leading to people dying, people starving, people depressing etc because of your personal beliefs, you have no place in our society to begin with. You are a danger to society if your actions cause massive damage to it.

                            I am the maniac, I am the ghoul
                            I'm in the shadows in the corners of my room

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                            • You're totally exaggerating, DnBLover . You're putting yourself above others with statements like 'you have no place in our society to begin with.' when you should accept people having other views on issues than you.
                              Pro: freedom of speech
                              Contra: cancel culture

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                              • Originally posted by theMathematician View Post
                                You're totally exaggerating, DnBLover . You're putting yourself above others with statements like 'you have no place in our society to begin with.' when you should accept people having other views on issues than you.
                                On the contrary, I am recognizing myself as a potential vector of a society endangering virus, thus given the existence of a vaccine which can likely extinguish that threat, I will take it even if there may be uknown side effects. Kids are not accepted into European schools without all the proper vaccines, and the parents of those kids will be in big trouble if they reject modern medicine. This already happens. There are social rules we need to abide by to live in a democratic society, and this implies that your freedom must not interfere with my freedom.

                                I am not exaggerating. You are the ones crying here everyday complaining against the measures to prevent covid. But at the same time don't want to take a vaccine which has the exact purpose of ending those measures, restore the economy and the health system.

                                I am not the radical here. Not wanting to be vaccinated is wanting to prolongue this health/economic crisis and wanting more people to die
                                I am the maniac, I am the ghoul
                                I'm in the shadows in the corners of my room

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                                • I agree 100 percent with DnBLover .
                                  Zero tolerance for : bigotry, racism, wilful ignorance.
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                                  • I can understand people who prefer to wait a few months to see the side effects of the vaccine and how effective would it be. I'll be waiting for Moderna vaccine cause the things i read about Biontech & Pfizer vaccine (people with allergies should not get it they say) makes me reluctant to have it.
                                    Cha Cha Instructor

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                                    • Well said, DnBLover ​​​​​​​
                                      "I see it, I like it, I want it... I GOT IT."

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                                      • Originally posted by spiritboy View Post
                                        I can understand people who prefer to wait a few months to see the side effects of the vaccine and how effective would it be. I'll be waiting for Moderna vaccine cause the things i read about Biontech & Pfizer vaccine (people with allergies should not get it they say) makes me reluctant to have it.
                                        Thank you very much
                                        jio CHARTS NOW: 19/10/2021: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...5#post10765535

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                                        • Originally posted by DnBLover View Post

                                          On the contrary, I am recognizing myself as a potential vector of a society endangering virus, thus given the existence of a vaccine which can likely extinguish that threat, I will take it even if there may be uknown side effects. Kids are not accepted into European schools without all the proper vaccines, and the parents of those kids will be in big trouble if they reject modern medicine. This already happens. There are social rules we need to abide by to live in a democratic society, and this implies that your freedom must not interfere with my freedom.

                                          I am not exaggerating. You are the ones crying here everyday complaining against the measures to prevent covid. But at the same time don't want to take a vaccine which has the exact purpose of ending those measures, restore the economy and the health system.

                                          I am not the radical here. Not wanting to be vaccinated is wanting to prolongue this health/economic crisis and wanting more people to die
                                          Oh dear...

                                          1) Society-endangering virus? nobody ever claimed that
                                          2) If you ever experienced a serious adverse reaction to a medicine, you wouldn't be talking like that.
                                          3) Please don't confuse safe, well-established and long-used and efficient vaccines with this. They are totally different cases, We are still learning about its side effects - Bell's palsy for example only emerged last week I believe. We also do not know about duration of protection
                                          4) Social rules take a long time to be established. There can be no social rule regarding a months-old vaccine
                                          5) If you take the vaccine to end measures, restore economy and health system, then you are taking it for the wrong reasons. A vaccine should be taken only on a risk-benefit basis in regards to the disease it prevents and not to be saving economies.
                                          6) There is no logic in taking the vaccine to protect someone else, especially since vaccinated people will keep on doing all protection measures for a while

                                          And you did not respond to my "philosophical" points before about hospitals refusing treatment.
                                          jio CHARTS NOW: 19/10/2021: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...5#post10765535

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                                          • Originally posted by spiritboy View Post
                                            I can understand people who prefer to wait a few months to see the side effects of the vaccine and how effective would it be. I'll be waiting for Moderna vaccine cause the things i read about Biontech & Pfizer vaccine (people with allergies should not get it they say) makes me reluctant to have it.
                                            Actually, A lot of vaccines have the same warning about people with severe allergies. It is nothing out of the ordinary.
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                                            • Is the incidence rate still rising around where you live? In my region, we just scored a new record (300+ per 100k people) and it doesn't seem to slow down.
                                              Pro: freedom of speech
                                              Contra: cancel culture

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                                              • jio you skipped my entire post on the previous page.

                                                I could go on with this discussion but if you fail to recognize this virus is endangering society and the way we live, then not much I can say to you. You have data and evidence, keep ignoring it if it makes you happy. Keep ignoring that some people cannot be physically vaccinated and have to rely on herd immunity. Keep ignoring that immunity does not last forever and the faster everyone is vaccinated the higher the chance this virus is eradicated. Keep ignoring that vaccines are not 100% effective and won't protect everyone who takes them. Keep ignoring that all vaccines have potential side effects, including flu shots. Keep ignoring that covid has plenty of unknown and serious side effects at a far far higher rate that the ones known for these vaccines based already on hundreds of thousands of vaccinated people.
                                                ​​​​​​
                                                Yea when you deny evidence it's pointless to argue.
                                                ​​​​
                                                I am the maniac, I am the ghoul
                                                I'm in the shadows in the corners of my room

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                                                • Originally posted by DnBLover View Post
                                                  How about rejecting Covid treatment to those who refuse to get vaccinated without sound reason (immuno compromised, etc), and to those who deny the disease?
                                                  I hate to say this, but you're starting to sound like the pro-pharma (but just as extreme and dangerous) counterpart of anti-vaxxers who believe that vaccines cause autism: ''Take every new pill and every new vaccine the day it becomes available, because big pharma said it's safe!''. Big pharma has been wrong before, it'll be wrong again. And if your little hot take here becomes official government policy (it won't), it's just a matter of time before it causes massive harm.

                                                  We should trust the science, but in this case the science just isn't there (yet). There's no way for the long-term effects of a vaccine to be properly researched less than 12 months after the virus was first discovered.

                                                  That said, I'm still willing to bet that most of us who are debating here whether to take the vaccine or not, will eventually not be advised to take it.

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                                                  • The only thing making me not wanting to get a vaccine are the ones who will benefit from herd immunuty and show nothing but ignorance. It really is the ones screaming the loudest about the covid regulations that don't want to get shots.

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