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  • Originally posted by jio View Post

    Nice argument (not)... But I will answer to you with a question. So... do you really think that most of european countries are slowly ending their lockdowns because the situation is great everywhere... or because they realized that their economies simply cannot take the amount of lockdown that is needed for this to go away?

    I am sure it is the latter. Which means that they recognized the need for a more balanced approach (i.e. of the I suggested in my other answer to you) and that b) their initial strategy was wrong and that the economic argument strategy could have a lot of merits. Sure, they'd never admit to in public but actions speak louder than words...
    Obviously lockdown could not last forever and no one suggested that it could. All the countries are introducing a phased reintroduction of services and it is based on a number, called the R number, at which the virus is multiplying. The spread of the virus and the death toll HAS slowed down hugely all over Europe, which allows for a phased reintroduction of things. Again, this is NOW possible, BECAUSE of the measures which were taken two months ago which were primarily done so as not to overwhelm the hospitals and care workers, which was ALWAYS stated as a main reason for the lockdown in the first place. It is really not that difficult to understand, or at least it should not be.

    Comment


    • Obviously you are thinking about this on a very local (and dare I say naive?) level. The amount of damage this has done is amazing and is still not fully accounted for. WHO has already spoken about the effects the disruption in international travel and trade has done to the delivery of medicine to those in need. It has predicted a rise in HIV deaths because of lack of medicine. Similarly the World Food Program has spoken of the danger of famine in some countries, again because of the measures taken in other countries disrupting trade and thus taking away the resources of many people to live. I had to look at the report but it is predicted that thanks to measures taken to fight COVID-19 (and secondarily due to COVID itself) 265 million people will be on the brink of starvation this year (for comparison 130 million were in the same situation in 2019). So somebody said: "And what should we have done? Let people die?". It would be more correct to ask "Let our people die?" because that's what it comes down to. The measures we took do not save lives, they save our lives in the expense of other peoples' lives. And these are not my words, they are the words of WHO and the World Food Program but you know what? It doesn't take a genius to understand those things.


      Last edited by jio; Wed May 20th, 2020, 17:47.
      jio CHARTS NOW:1/6/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...6#post10400726

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      • Originally posted by jio View Post

        The funny thing is that half of Europe is saying the exact same... the same sentence can be found in Greek, Cypriot, Slovak, Czech, Bulgarian and Serbian newspapers among others (and I know this from personal knowledge, I have read 4 of the above and my friends told me about the other two...) lol lol
        0,21% - 178.489 Covid-19 infected - 8,265 died - 4,63% - 83,750,000 population - Germany
        0,12% - 10,833 Covid-19 infected - 235 died - 2,16% - 8,740,000 population - Serbia
        0,08% - 8,698 Covid-19 infected - 304 died - 3,49% - 10,700,000 population - Czech Republic
        0,02% - 2,850 Covid-19 infected - 166 died - 5,82% - 10,420,000 population - Greece
        0,03% - 2,292 Covid-19 infected - 116 died - 5,06% - 6,950,000 population - Bulgaria
        0,02% - 1,496 Covid-19 infected - 28 died - 1,87% - 5,460,000 population - Slovakia
        0,07% - 922 Covid-19 infected - 17 died - 1,84% - 1,200,000 population - Cyprus

        For what it's worth... all these countries did extremely well...

        compared to:

        0,37% - 227,364 Covid-19 infected - 32,330 died - 14,21% - 60,470,000 population - Italy
        0,59% - 279,524 Covid-19 infected - 27,888 died - 9,97% - 46,750,000 population - Spain
        --
        0,47% - 1,586,694 Covid-19 infected - 94,708 died - 5,96% - 330,770,000 population - USA

        I think in its entirety all of Europe (incl. UK) did an amazing job fighting this. Italy and Spain may be seen as bad examples... but their healthcare - hospital - system did not crash and burn...they could handle the situation all in all.

        The results in each country represent their unique capabilities and reactions. Densely populated countries versus the big empty Nordic giants... early lockdowns versus no lockdowns... international help versus helping others.

        I'd still rather be in Europe during a pandemic than in any other continent (except for maybe Australia).
        My Chart

        Comment


        • Originally posted by stevyy View Post

          0,21% - 178.489 Covid-19 infected - 8,265 died - 4,63% - 83,750,000 population - Germany
          0,12% - 10,833 Covid-19 infected - 235 died - 2,16% - 8,740,000 population - Serbia
          0,08% - 8,698 Covid-19 infected - 304 died - 3,49% - 10,700,000 population - Czech Republic
          0,02% - 2,850 Covid-19 infected - 166 died - 5,82% - 10,420,000 population - Greece
          0,03% - 2,292 Covid-19 infected - 116 died - 5,06% - 6,950,000 population - Bulgaria
          0,02% - 1,496 Covid-19 infected - 28 died - 1,87% - 5,460,000 population - Slovakia
          0,07% - 922 Covid-19 infected - 17 died - 1,84% - 1,200,000 population - Cyprus

          For what it's worth... all these countries did extremely well...

          compared to:

          0,37% - 227,364 Covid-19 infected - 32,330 died - 14,21% - 60,470,000 population - Italy
          0,59% - 279,524 Covid-19 infected - 27,888 died - 9,97% - 46,750,000 population - Spain
          --
          0,47% - 1,586,694 Covid-19 infected - 94,708 died - 5,96% - 330,770,000 population - USA

          I think in its entirety all of Europe (incl. UK) did an amazing job fighting this. Italy and Spain may be seen as bad examples... but their healthcare - hospital - system did not crash and burn...they could handle the situation all in all.

          The results in each country represent their unique capabilities and reactions. Densely populated countries versus the big empty Nordic giants... early lockdowns versus no lockdowns... international help versus helping others.

          I'd still rather be in Europe during a pandemic than in any other continent (except for maybe Australia).
          Germany counted the deaths differently than other countries, this has been reported on. So the death toll is not realistic.

          Comment


          • Very informative plots about the increase in deaths rates, and excess deaths, across different regions.





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            • Originally posted by jio View Post
              Obviously you are thinking about this on a very local (and dare I say naive?) level. The amount of damage this has done is amazing and is still not fully accounted for. WHO has already spoken about the effects the disruption in international travel and trade has done to the delivery of medicine to those in need. It has predicted a rise in HIV deaths because of lack of medicine. Similarly the World Food Program has spoken of the danger of famine in some countries, again because of the measures taken in other countries disrupting trade and thus taking away the resources of many people to live. I had to look at the report but it is predicted that thanks to measures taken to fight COVID-19 (and secondarily due to COVID itself) 265 million people will be on the brink of starvation this year (for comparison 130 million were in the same situation in 2019). So somebody said: "And what should we have done? Let people die?". It would be more correct to ask "Let our people die?" because that's what it comes down to. The measures we took do not save lives, they save our lives in the expense of other peoples' lives. And these are not my words, they are the words of WHO and the World Food Program but you know what? It doesn't take a genius to understand those things.

              The economic aftermath is going to be quite a fallout.
              Waffles are checked cookies

              Comment


              • The infection numbers keep shrinking in Germany, which is great. During the past seven days, there have been 2.1 cases per 100k inhabitants in my district, and there are districts without a single reported case during the past seven days. Let's hope that we've moved past the worst and that everyday life is recurring bit after bit!
                WHEN WE ALL FALL ASLEEP, WHERE DO WE GO?

                Comment


                • Yeah we are at like 2% of the economic fallout so far, much more to come.
                  2019 Year End Charts: The 20/20 Experience

                  Comment


                  • Looks like Brazil is the new hotspot.
                    Also the Russian death numbers are so obviously not being reported properly.

                    Comment


                    • theMathematician
                      theMathematician commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Brazil's main problem are the favelas. Hard to establish distance rules there :/ .

                  • Dominic Cummings, the sinister Gollum-esque man basically
                    running the country behind Boris Johnson, is getting it in the neck today for travelling hundreds of miles during lockdown to take his child to his parents’ house when his wife caught the virus, even though the advice is that everyone in the house should self isolate for 14 days if this happens.

                    He’ll squirm out of it, even though he should obviously be fired.

                    Comment


                    • Mexico is also taking off quite a bit along with Chile
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                      • Dominic Cummings is complete trash - he's due to give an announcement today and take questions, unprecedented for an advisor to do this.

                        Comment


                        • Poeple still care about this fad?
                          COMMON LOVE ISN'T FOR US...

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                          • Originally posted by Wayne View Post
                            Dominic Cummings is complete trash - he's due to give an announcement today and take questions, unprecedented for an advisor to do this.
                            The excuses were utterly laughable - even he didn't sound convinced by his own lies. The memes that followed about Barnard Castle were hilarious.

                            The fact he's neither resigned nor been sacked despite calls from practically every institution in the country has turned Boris' government into an either bigger laughing stock. If only there were a general election sooner than 2024...

                            Comment


                            • 30 MPs have come forward to say he needs to resign, one of Boris' Ministers resigned earlier in protest - there's almost unanimous condemnation of his actions, it's quite pleasing to see (but I hate that people mob him in the streets - I worry about another Jo Cox situation).

                              Comment


                              • My uncle died today after fighting Coronavirus for more than a month.
                                It's one feeling when you read daily about those people who lost the fight with the virus.
                                Even if it's cruel, it is just a statistic, people that you don't know.
                                Quite different when you read about a member of your family. That's crazy... My uncle was just 58 years old.
                                Drugs come in all forms .... Mine just happens to be you!?

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                                • Originally posted by Lety View Post
                                  My uncle died today after fighting Coronavirus for more than a month.
                                  It's one feeling when you read daily about those people who lost the fight with the virus.
                                  Even if it's cruel, it is just a statistic, people that you don't know.
                                  Quite different when you read about a member of your family. That's crazy... My uncle was just 58 years old.
                                  So sorry to hear about your loss :(

                                  Comment


                                  • @Lety: I'm very sorry for you! Hopefully, you and your family will get through these hard times.
                                    WHEN WE ALL FALL ASLEEP, WHERE DO WE GO?

                                    Comment


                                    • So sorry for your loss Lety :'(
                                      LJC--->>

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                                      • Is everybody else’s Instagram/Facebook absolutely littered with people proudly posting pictures of them not social distancing? I’m not sure about other countries rules but we’re still essentially on lockdown and the disrespect is making me furious.

                                        Who knew there was this level of selfishness and idiocy in the world. (I realise after typing that how stupid of a question it is)

                                        Comment


                                        • cheapthrills, theMathematician, LJC123 Thank you guys!
                                          Drugs come in all forms .... Mine just happens to be you!?

                                          Comment


                                          • Big changes in the U.K. from Monday - in addition to being able to socialise with up to 6 people from other households (whilst observing social distancing guidelines), those who have shielded for the last 3 months are also allowed out.

                                            Comment


                                            • Originally posted by jason2379 View Post
                                              Is everybody else’s Instagram/Facebook absolutely littered with people proudly posting pictures of them not social distancing? I’m not sure about other countries rules but we’re still essentially on lockdown and the disrespect is making me furious.

                                              Who knew there was this level of selfishness and idiocy in the world. (I realise after typing that how stupid of a question it is)
                                              I feel like people have generally ignored the rules. Everyone seems to think it’s a bit of a joke. It’s great that there will be some relaxing of the rules this week but I feel people will push it further.
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                                              • I feel like the riots we see, while having an unrelated trigger, are just a glimpse of what’s to come. Unemployment, poverty etc. as a consequence of coronavirus will be dynamite for more global unrest in the near and mid-term future.
                                                2019 Year End Charts: The 20/20 Experience

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                                                • Originally posted by LOVE+FEAR View Post
                                                  I feel like the riots we see, while having an unrelated trigger, are just a glimpse of what’s to come. Unemployment, poverty etc. as a consequence of coronavirus will be dynamite for more global unrest in the near and mid-term future.
                                                  I had the same feeling 2 months ago and I was really worried then.
                                                  I'm still worried, but I'm taking things more calmly now.
                                                  Unfortunately, the riots are gaining ground every day around the world. And I think it's inevitable at this moment.
                                                  Too many mistakes were done.
                                                  Trump, Putin and other leaders of the world thought and think just about their ass.
                                                  When the glass will be full, people will start to go against the power, there will not be way back.
                                                  People will go ahead even if blood will be pour.
                                                  Drugs come in all forms .... Mine just happens to be you!?

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