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  • Moria refugee camp in fire

    And somewhere here the dreams of thousands of people who left their countries to reach a better life end. This is what European refugee policies (including Greek of course) resulted to. In 2015, Victor Orban suggested turning some Greek islands into European versions of Ellis island to stop the refugee waves. Everybody was outraged. In 2016, Germany's Angela Merkel and Turkey's Recep Erdogan sign the EU-Turkey refugee deal which turned some Greek islands into massive prisons. Human rights groups criticize the deal for violating international law by trading refugees and essentially denying the right to asylum to no avail. Since the deal applies only to Greek islands (and not Greek mainland), Greece is given an indirect incentive to create refugee camps on the islands (thus building Orban's "Ellis islands"). In Lesbos Moria camp, the situation became desperate as a camp built for 2000, reaches a population of over 12 000 in appalling conditions. And as tensions rise, so does xenophobia and the end is inevitable. When the world's wealthiest continent deems acceptable to house 12 000 people in a tiny island under appalling conditions, destroying both the refugees' dreams and the locals' economy, when the world's wealthiest continent cannot possibly accept a refugee percentage much lower than much poorer Lebanon or Turkey, the end is inevitable.





    So to Greece, EU, Turkey, Merkel, Erdogan and whoever supported the ridiculous EU refugee policy, congrats. Message has been sent: we don't want you. And if you come here, one way or another, we will kill you
    jio CHARTS NOW: 19/10/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post10484283

  • #2
    If Europe won't take refugees, then they should sent them back to their countries. Greece and Turkey shouldn't be the only ones carrying the burden. There are more than 5 million refugees here and many sleep in the streets or in horrible conditions.
    Cha Cha Instructor

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    • #3
      When region A is poor and overpopulated and region B is rich and underpopulated then population will flow naturally from A to B. That's why young people from Romania and Poland move towards Germany and France. That's how you reduce tensions in both donor countries (reducing population and unemployment and increasing remittances and wealth) and receiver countries (reducing labour shortages and pressures on salary hikes). Under a free movement scenario this movement will continue until differences between A and B lessen to the extent that the risk of travelling outweighs the expected benefits of the destination. Given the stark and ever-increasing differences in wealth, opportunity and prospects between the richest and poorest countries of the world, reducing the perceived benefits of the destination seems so unlikely that perhaps, some perverse mind somewhere in Europe decided to instead increase tremendously the risk of travelling so as to deter the migrants. So they have to walk deserts, war zones, pay little fortunes to smugglers, risk drowning in sea only to reach a disgustingly overcrowded refugee camp in a god-forgotten island in the world's fastest shrinking economy where they cannot work or study but they can get sick or even get burned. Maybe that is the european refugee policy after all" create a little hell for the refugees so as to prove that there is no Europe for them. Don't make the trip


      jio CHARTS NOW: 19/10/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post10484283

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      • #4
        Originally posted by jio View Post
        When region A is poor and overpopulated and region B is rich and underpopulated then population will flow naturally from A to B. That's why young people from Romania and Poland move towards Germany and France.
        There is an underlying (but not so subtle) race component in all of this. Romania and Poland (or former Soviet Union countries, for that matter) migration isn't welcomed, but it is semi-acceptable, unlike the migration from the so-called "third world".
        Waffles are checked cookies

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        • #5
          I haven't seen any of this in the news, we're too busy in the UK overreacting to COVID.

          Very sad state of affairs here - can't believe how overpopulated the camp was.

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          • #6
            Of course no one wants to see people dying. I agree with spiritboy though: Europe should be transparent and just say 'yes' or 'no' instead of staying at 'maybe' stage for ages. Those people deserve certainty, so they can plan their future.
            I agree with jio : As long as there are richer and poorer countries, there will be migrational processes or at least attempts to migrate. I can't imagine that neither the receiving countries nor the refugees themselves have been particularly satisfied with what's been going on during the past few years, so the EU should reconsider their foreign policy. Instead of bragging about their wealth and progress, they should help other countries to improve their economic, social and health situation, so that people no longer feel the need to flee. That way, both the EU and the other countries would significantly profit. There is one other option: The EU keeps on getting richer and pulls a 'You've got no bread? Well, then eat cake!' type of attitude. I don't think this was in anyone's interest.
            Is it offensive to fall in love with you and everything you do
            and everything you stand for?
            Could I break through your invisible wall, could I hide my pride for once,
            just to tell you that I see more?

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            • #7
              The majority of refugees in Moria are not seeking economic opportunity, they're fleeing from war-torn countries in the Middle East. There's no point in spending billions on development aid for the Middle East if America and its puppet states keep bombing it.

              In the short term, we should allow all those refugees to come to mainland Europe. In the long term, the EU should buy 2-3 luxury cruise liners, pick the refugees up at home (no more deadly Mediterranean crossings!), then send a fair share straight to New York and Dover.

              Also stop building pipelines to Russia and sending money and arms to Turkey maybe.

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              • #8
                An update:

                The island of Lesbos now has over 10 000 homeless refugees and migrants who sleep on the streets, in cemetaries, churches, parks, wherever





                -As a response to the disaster the Greek government has announced it will provide a number of boats to temporarily house the refugees but so far only 1 boat has arrived (with capacity of 1 000 people). Another 11 000 people are still in the open. France and Germany have promised to remove about 400 unaccompanied children from the camp (although one has to wonder why it was considered acceptable up to now for these children to stay in an overcrowded refugee camp where sexual harassment had been documented ( https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/12/04/...er-women-girls ). Notice that before the fire, those 2 countries had commited to a much lower number of 40-50 each.

                -Meanwhile the Greek government has pledged to the dismay of both refugees and locals to rebuild the camp as a closed structure this time, where one can safely assume that overcrowding would be worse, COVID risk higher and scrutiny against abuses more difficult. Since the rebuilding is heavily depended on EU funds, it would be interesting to see if the EU will allow this further deterioration of conditions.
                Last edited by jio; Fri September 11, 2020, 09:44.
                jio CHARTS NOW: 19/10/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post10484283

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                • #9
                  Send them back to their countries, if EU won't take them, why should Greece suffer?
                  Cha Cha Instructor

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                  • #10
                    Why won't the aggressors like USA, Russia, Israel & UK help out at all when it's their fault the region is so f*cked up in the first place? Maybe if they actually had to suffer some consequences then they would stop toying with so many countries / lifes.
                    BEAUTY IS A MUST, TALENT IS A PLUS
                    98 - OUT

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by spiritboy View Post
                      Send them back to their countries if EU won't take them, why should Greece suffer?
                      There's a thing called the Dublin regulation. You may argue that it desperately needs reform, but for now it's EU law.

                      Originally posted by aRat View Post
                      Why won't the aggressors like USA, Russia, Israel & UK help out at all when it's their fault the region is so f*cked up in the first place? Maybe if they actually had to suffer some consequences then they would stop toying with so many countries / lifes.
                      IKR!!!! They've been feeling way too safe across the Atlantic / Channel for way too long. It's time to call them out for what they are (war criminals) and make them take their fair share (90% or more).

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                      • #12
                        I want to say that I do not agree with the notion that Greece is suffering from the refugees. Lesbos and a few other islands are suffering, yes, but Greece as a whole rarely thinks about the suffering of a few thousand people in a faraway corner of the country (not too dissimilar to how mainstream Europe thinks that the refugee crisis is over simply because refugees cannot get to the centre of the continent). Europe has just packed the refugee problem around the Greek-Turkish border, out of sight and showering money on it in the hope it will disappear. It was a short-sighted strategy which lead to the predictable explosion. Now people will be transferred to the centre, possibly with less resistance from the public because of the hard pictures on TV. It is actually quite perverse. People are reaching our doorstep from war zones and yet we want them to prove to us that they are suffering enormously in order for us to accept them, either by walking endless miles on foot, or withstanding Moria, or saving them from a boat half-drowned or by showing to us a crying baby or 2. We are in the age of information when we all know how problematic the living standards are in the vast majority of the countries of origin, yet we want to see them with our own eyes suffering here in Europe before we help them. And we help them not because we care (because if we did, we would have helped them much earlier) but because we don't want to destroy the way we view ourselves as civilized.

                        I mean in response to the explosions in Lebanon, my country (Cyprus) was one of the countries to send the most help (per capita of course) and yet following the first arrival of refugees from Lebanon, we sent a delegation to that country to persuade them to stop migrant movements towards Cyprus. I mean, picture it: Cyprus (pop. 0.9m./refugee/asylum seekers pop 25 000/31st richest country in the world) asking Lebanon (pop 7m./refugee pop 1.5m/87th richest country in the world) to stop migrant flows because it cannot take any more. Seriously? And I think a similar type of lunacy in a much greater scale can be found in the thinking of Europe as a whole. EU countries are really not hosting that many refugees (only Sweden and Malta are among the top 10 refugee-hosting countries worldwide).

                        I do see the same type of thinking in most of the responses here that focus basically on why it is more fair for some other country to take the refugees. It's thinking like that that leads to endless postponements of the inevitable, huge suffering on both sides of the border and spending endless amount of money to countries that then use the refugee waves as a weapon. It is just wrong and short-sighted and from a point-on criminal.
                        jio CHARTS NOW: 19/10/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post10484283

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by spiritboy View Post
                          Send them back to their countries, if EU won't take them, why should Greece suffer?
                          Actually the combination of the Dublin regulation and the EU-Turkey agreement makes sure that the refugees will remain either in Turkey or on the greek islands.
                          jio CHARTS NOW: 19/10/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post10484283

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                          • #14
                            An important future-oriented question, in connection to jio 's posts: Even if the distribution of those refugees was handled in some way, wouldn't there be new refugees that end up in the same situation very soon again? It seems like a bottomless pit to me if the EU doesn't put combating the causes of flight first.
                            Is it offensive to fall in love with you and everything you do
                            and everything you stand for?
                            Could I break through your invisible wall, could I hide my pride for once,
                            just to tell you that I see more?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by theMathematician View Post
                              An important future-oriented question, in connection to jio 's posts: Even if the distribution of those refugees was handled in some way, wouldn't there be new refugees that end up in the same situation very soon again? It seems like a bottomless pit to me if the EU doesn't put combating the causes of flight first.
                              Well, it is most definitely a bottomless pit. Currently there are tens of thousands of people waiting to move towards mainland Europe in Greece and millions in Turkey and on the north African cost. It is just nature's way saying to us enough inequality on the global level. Distribution of refugees does not really solve the problem but it does reduce pressures momentarily and that's a big thing in itself- you really don't want to create defence mechanisms on populations which are most likely going to have to be integrated sooner or later. However, even the distribution thing has been abandoned- the latest Commission proposal provides for the option of not accepting any refugees and instead providing money to host countries which is clearly not enough. Even distribution itself is not done correctly currently but I guess better than nothing. Unfortunately there is currently not many EU politicians willing to take the necessary political risk to move society forward, instead they prefer to listen to the crowds (which is really not what a politician should be doing, they should be forming opinions and not following the lowest common denominator)

                              We should just get back to scientific way of doing things. Currently we are driven by a belief (that we can somehow stop migration) which has been proven both wrong and unacceptably inhuman time and time again and yet we not only keep on trying but we are even finding more and more cruel ways of doing it in the hope of sending a message of "don't come" (which by itself is an illogical proposal really)
                              jio CHARTS NOW: 19/10/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post10484283

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                              • #16
                                Just send them back to their countries of origin or other Middle Eastern countries that share similar cultures to theirs. Problem solved.

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Postgenic View Post
                                  Just send them back to their countries of origin or other Middle Eastern countries that share similar cultures to theirs. Problem solved.
                                  From a European point of view, yes. The causes why people from those countries flee must be fought in the next step and ideally, that would be done on a national level by the people who have got the power to cause a change. I mean, no ruler can be satisfied with people leaving their country. Those countries mustn't become Switzerland or Luxembourg in terms of living standards, but it should be a safe place to raise your family.

                                  The moment, the EU keeps on distributing the refugees stranded on the coast every few months, they are basically giving up on these countries, which leads to exactly 0 change.
                                  Is it offensive to fall in love with you and everything you do
                                  and everything you stand for?
                                  Could I break through your invisible wall, could I hide my pride for once,
                                  just to tell you that I see more?

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Postgenic View Post
                                    Just send them back to their countries of origin or other Middle Eastern countries that share similar cultures to theirs. Problem solved.
                                    tthis is basically the current "fortress Europe" mentality

                                    Waffles are checked cookies

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                                    • #19


                                      I can't at the audacity of Chancelor Merkel commenting on the dire refugee situation that she partly created by signing the EU-Turkish refugee deal. She really has some nerves talking
                                      Last edited by jio; Tue October 6, 2020, 16:39.
                                      jio CHARTS NOW: 19/10/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post10484283

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                                      • #20
                                        Merkel is living in her own dream world, but as I recently wrote here, we Germans follow the mantra of 'Keep calm and carry on!'.
                                        Is it offensive to fall in love with you and everything you do
                                        and everything you stand for?
                                        Could I break through your invisible wall, could I hide my pride for once,
                                        just to tell you that I see more?

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                                        • #21
                                          Originally posted by theMathematician View Post
                                          Merkel is living in her own dream world, but as I recently wrote here, we Germans follow the mantra of 'Keep calm and carry on!'.
                                          Man, she signed the agreement that stacked the refugees in Turkey and the greek islands. It's her responsibility, she is not some neutral actor watching from afar, she is directly responsible for the dire situation of refugees in both countries...
                                          jio CHARTS NOW: 19/10/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post10484283

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                                          • #22
                                            Originally posted by jio View Post

                                            Man, she signed the agreement that stacked the refugees in Turkey and the greek islands. It's her responsibility, she is not some neutral actor watching from afar, she is directly responsible for the dire situation of refugees in both countries...
                                            I understand. Back in 2015, many Germans and people from other European countries were against her decisions during the refugee crisis, but she couldn't care less. She's doing her thing and the Germans keep voting for her party, so most people have learned to 'Keep calm and carry on!'. She's Chancelorette for 15 years now and people in her party still say there's no real alternative for her .
                                            Is it offensive to fall in love with you and everything you do
                                            and everything you stand for?
                                            Could I break through your invisible wall, could I hide my pride for once,
                                            just to tell you that I see more?

                                            Comment

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