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U.K. Politics: Gary Lineker v the BBC

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  • Wayne
    replied
    Re: UK Politics - UKMIX referendum on Brexit (POLL)

    Her majesty is required to be apolitical.

    Leave a comment:


  • MusicRecords
    replied
    Originally posted by menime123

    I know some wonít agree with this, but the fact the UK has a monarchy has a lot to do with the feelings behind Brexit (subliminally). We are a country proud of our vast heritage and have seen how the Queen has lead a Commonwealth of countries for decades - a community with shared values, history and beliefs, but with no legal obligations.
    Doesnít the old lizard favor brexit?

    Leave a comment:


  • jio
    replied
    Re: UK Politics - UKMIX referendum on Brexit (POLL)

    The army discussion is just the latest joke in Brussels but don't say that to the french because they might get offended. What does it mean anyway? Currently a European army would be mostly a french army with much increased funding coming mostly from Germany. I am not sure how well that would go down in Berlin. Moreover I am not sure how realistic is to expect from countries that chronically fail to meet their NATO expenditure targets to fund a parallel (and mostly unnecessary) structure.

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  • Artoo
    replied
    Quick, get that deal sorted May

    No Deal Brexit could see Mars Bars run out 'in just two weeks'


    Source

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  • heppolo
    replied
    Originally posted by menime123
    Originally posted by heppolo
    surely you are not assuming that the EU is about to experience the same just because the UK leaves (although Greece did experience the same thanks to the EU-imposed austerity programs)
    EU economy should also witness some form of an aftershock, not as significant of course.


    Thereíll be a few billion aftershocks to the EU economy each week after Brexit
    EU has set their sights on that trillion dollar Russian shadow money cheque. Might be a real WWIII trigger if you ask me.

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  • Artoo
    replied
    Re: UK Politics - UKMIX referendum on Brexit (POLL)

    The fact the EU now feel they need an army imo is their final play. Nothing is more desperate than an attempt at a show of strength. The EU is on its way out but I donít think it will just be a case of them saying ďnice try, letís go back to how things wereĒ. Too much has happened, too much has been invested.

    I believe in the ideologies of the EU but it needs to be replaced by something better. I love and support the idea of European countries working together, but I think what has gotten lost along the way is the idea of individual sovereignty and I object to the EU slow trying to become something like the USA.

    I know some wonít agree with this, but the fact the UK has a monarchy has a lot to do with the feelings behind Brexit (subliminally). We are a country proud of our vast heritage and have seen how the Queen has lead a Commonwealth of countries for decades - a community with shared values, history and beliefs, but with no legal obligations.

    Of course itís entirely different to the EU, but the key difference imo is that the commonwealth is based on respect, whereas the EU continues to move towards a form of dictatorship - and as soon as a member decides to leave for the first time, it begins discussions about having its own army? Suddenly viewing it as totalitarian body doesnít feel alien.

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  • jio
    replied
    I actually agree with you menime on the no-deal part. Also the EU is in general shock (and not aftershock) since 2010. Brexit is just the next step in the disintegration process that began with the financial crisis of 2010 and the inability of the EU to deal with it in a proper way. It is all part of the same process and not something irrelevant as some would like us to think.

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  • Artoo
    replied
    Originally posted by heppolo
    surely you are not assuming that the EU is about to experience the same just because the UK leaves (although Greece did experience the same thanks to the EU-imposed austerity programs)
    EU economy should also witness some form of an aftershock, not as significant of course.


    Thereíll be a few billion aftershocks to the EU economy each week after Brexit

    Leave a comment:


  • Artoo
    replied
    How would a second referendum not make a mockery of democracy? Asking the same question achieves nothing. Nor does asking the public to vote on the deal because frankly, weíll just complain about it - we are fed up of bloody Brexit.

    Our MPs have always been our voice in Parliament and this is exactly what they should be doing now - being the voice for their constituents and voting based on how they are instructed. We donít need a public vote on the deal - we canít keep going around in circles if we vote no for it.

    This is why I support a no deal exit. Just get us the hell out (as directed) then sort everything out afterwards. We wonít starve. We wonít crash. The lights will stay on. If leaving the EU is non-negotiable (and it is) then we shouldnít be pandering to the EU on our way out the door.

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  • heppolo
    replied
    surely you are not assuming that the EU is about to experience the same just because the UK leaves (although Greece did experience the same thanks to the EU-imposed austerity programs)
    EU economy should also witness some form of an aftershock, not as significant of course.
    Is that a wish? Because you must be aware that the UK's situation right now is nothing like Belarus and Ukraine's in 1991.
    What's more ironic is that Gorbachev's project of USSR's re-branding (failed due to a coup the day before it should have been signed) involved a EU-style alliance instead of USSR.

    Leave a comment:


  • jio
    replied
    Re: UK Politics - UKMIX referendum on Brexit (POLL)

    Is that a wish? Because you must be aware that the UK's situation right now is nothing like Belarus and Ukraine's in 1991. Also Russia itself lost about 30% of its economy by 1998 and surely you are not assuming that the EU is about to experience the same just because the UK leaves (although Greece did experience the same thanks to the EU-imposed austerity programs)

    Leave a comment:


  • heppolo
    replied
    Re: UK Politics - UKMIX referendum on Brexit (POLL)

    UK should have a no deal EU exit (a-la early 1991 soviet style break up). As we might remember, the post-Soviet states like Ukraine or Belarus only lost 30%-50% of their GDP during the 1992-1995 period, surely the UK won't end up worse off in the modern globalised economy.

    Leave a comment:


  • heppolo
    replied
    Originally posted by menime123
    Originally posted by heppolo
    Originally posted by menime123
    Originally posted by jio
    First of all I agree with the notion that the results of the previous referendum can be overturned just with another referendum.
    Just think of the hope itíll give that devil woman up in Scotland.
    Not as much of a devil as the one in DUP.

    She isnít after a 2nd referendum to leave the UK.
    Some 18th century unionists are much more toxic than separatists.

    Leave a comment:


  • jio
    replied
    Well I was just thinking how it can be overturned without hurting democracy and the rule of law. Obviously being overturned by the parliament may be legally feasible but it would make a mockery of democracy. So a second referendum is the only instrument which could possibly overturn the initial referendum. And I also agree with menime in that a referendum's results should be respected no matter why the people voted as they did. One could argue on plenty of not-so-ideal circumstances affecting the remain side as well but it doesn't really matter. As long as the vote was free and fair (and nobody suggested it wasn't) it counts.

    Now do I think that the UK should overturn its decision through another referendum? Absolutely not. The way the UK has been pushed by the EU these last months means that it only has one option and that is to leave. If it overturns the results of the referendum it would have admitted defeat and that would mean a massive loss of power for the UK within the EU. Also a UK change of hearts would not be enough to stop the exit process. Although not clearly mentioned in the treaties, extending the negotiation period before the actual exit requires unanimity in the council so it is logical to think that stopping the exit process altogether would require the same thing. And that would give massive leverage to the EU to ask the UK for massive concessions to do so, especially since the UK would be received as weak. So the UK's EU membership would look nothing like it did before. It would also mean further strengthening the powers that currently rule in the EU and have brought what once was the greatest international organization to the sorry state it finds itself today so that's not good for any of us.

    Leave a comment:


  • Artoo
    replied
    Originally posted by heppolo
    Originally posted by menime123
    Originally posted by jio
    First of all I agree with the notion that the results of the previous referendum can be overturned just with another referendum.
    Just think of the hope itíll give that devil woman up in Scotland.
    Not as much of a devil as the one in DUP.

    She isnít after a 2nd referendum to leave the UK.

    Leave a comment:


  • heppolo
    replied
    Originally posted by menime123
    Originally posted by jio
    First of all I agree with the notion that the results of the previous referendum can be overturned just with another referendum.
    Just think of the hope itíll give that devil woman up in Scotland.
    Not as much of a devil as the one in DUP.

    Leave a comment:


  • Artoo
    replied
    Originally posted by jio
    First of all I agree with the notion that the results of the previous referendum can be overturned just with another referendum.
    As it wasnít legally binding, yes, it could. But by god itíll never, ever happen. We canít open that pandoraís Box. Just think of the hope itíll give that devil woman up in Scotland.

    The public voted. It makes no difference if we didnít understand, if we were victims of flawed campaigning, or if we simply didnt envisage it being like this. It doesnít matter. That wasnít the question:

    Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?
    This is what was asked. No caveats, no room for misinterpretation, no noise attached. We were asked if we wanted in or out and we all decided. I opted in, but in the name of democracy, everyone should support leaving now it is what the majority wanted.

    It doesnít matter how much ignorance we had beforehand in terms of how it would play out. We had the opportunity to research our answer if we wanted to. Letís face it, we all know politicians lie so if we believe them itís our own fault. But if we arenít happy with how Brexit has gone, it doesnít mean we should have another referendum. We need to speak to our MPs and tell them not to support the deal on the table if we donít like it.

    That is what they are there for and there has never been a more important time than relying on our MPs to acknowledge our opinion and to act accordingly.

    Leave a comment:


  • jio
    replied
    First of all I agree with the notion that the results of the previous referendum can be overturned just with another referendum. Secondly I totally disagree with everything else Kpop said. See one could argue for or against membership of the EU and both would be totally right depending on what they look at and for which time period etc. But being an EU member is essentially a political decision. You can both be rich or poor outside the EU and you can both be democratic or dictatorial both in and out the EU. That's even more true especially in the case of established economies/democracies such as the UK's or indeed Germany's and is less true for the emerging democracies/economies of Eastern EU and the re-emerging economies of southern EU. So it is a matter of what road one would choose and not of a right or wrong decision set in stone.

    Now let me say that the sentence the EU has the right to protect its rules and members is pure nonsense. Sometimes I feel that we forget that the EU including its rules were established in order to serve its member states both individually and as a collective. Under no circumstance those rules were above the well-being of member states and its people, hence the veto power in the majority of decisions as well as the enormous powers of the European Council (which represents member states as individuals and not as a collective) in comparison to the supranational Commission and Parliament. But even if we accept that the EU has a right to protect its rules in expense of a member state that violates them, the truth is that currently the UK is not violating any rule. It is instead practicing a right given to it by the EU treaties: that of leaving. As of protecting its members part well... I think the UK is still a member so what we have here is essentially an oxymoron: The EU hurting the economic well-being of one member state in the name of preventing other members from practicing a right given to them by the EU treaties.

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  • Kpop
    replied
    I'd advise anyone who hasn't to (if possible) listen to James O'Brien on LBC radio Mon to Fri 10AM 1PM (UK time) dismantle the arguments of Brexiteers. If you can't listen to him there are clips of him on You Tube doing this. He is not interested in just believing Brexit will be a success; only in facts regarding Brexit.

    He's been saying for the past 2 years that this Brexit nonsense would happen because people were groomed by papers like the Daily Mail and charlatans like Boris Johnson; Jacob Rees-Mogg and Farage. And still people listen to these liars.

    There is no way the UK was going to get a better deal by being out of the EU; otherwise no country would be in it. The EU didn't blackmail the UK: Brexit is a UK thing. The EU has every right to protect it's rules and members. The deal that May has got means that the UK now has less control because it will become a ruler taker without a seat at the EU table. The opposite of what Brexiteers wanted and of course Remainers like me think: What's the point of leaving?

    So we need a 2nd referendum on the deal: (1) May's deal; or (2) stay in the EU.

    This will not be sorted with a G.E as the Tories won't vote for it .

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  • MusicRecords
    replied
    He fancies me, he just plays hard to get love a stubborn daddy

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  • aRat
    replied
    ^ mess

    Leave a comment:


  • Rihab
    replied
    Originally posted by menime123
    Originally posted by MusicRecords
    Originally posted by menime123
    Originally posted by MusicRecords
    Iím enjoying this, the value of the pound is going down...makes it easier for poor people like me to chav around buying Burberry

    Like they let you in the shop.
    Omg we should totally go for tea when I go in March

    Iím washing my hair.

    Leave a comment:


  • MusicRecords
    replied
    Originally posted by menime123
    Originally posted by MusicRecords
    Originally posted by menime123
    Originally posted by MusicRecords
    Iím enjoying this, the value of the pound is going down...makes it easier for poor people like me to chav around buying Burberry

    Like they let you in the shop.
    Omg we should totally go for tea when I go in March

    Iím washing my hair.

    Leave a comment:


  • jio
    replied
    That's exactly what I am saying. Sure a deal was not discussed, sure they didn't realize that there would be very negative consequences in the short term, sure they just thought they would be saving money, sure they didn't count on Merkel and co being vengeful and so on but the bottomline is that all this is just noise. When your only argument to attempt and discredit the result is that "the people didn't realize how the EU can make us suffer if we leave", then you don't really have an argument.

    How the EU countries are explaining this... well there is no "EU countries". Here for example there is no real interest on the issue but it is generally seen as the organization which is based somewhere far and being beyond any type of control attacking yet another country which dared to question its wisdom just because it can. I am pretty sure that the view from Germany or the Netherlands would be different though...

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  • Artoo
    replied
    Originally posted by jio
    I think the question of whether a country stays or leaves the EU should be about something more than just what a deal that country can get. I mean the whole idea behind being tough with the UK and giving them a bad deal is only to send a message to other countries that might be tempted to leave (a strategy also practiced in Greece with little result- look at Italy now). A union which aims at ever closer union should be able to speak in peoples' hearts and minds and the EU is clearly not doing so. A union basing its existence at pure blackmail has no future really.

    A Ďdealí wasnít really discussed as far as I remember when we were voting on Brexit. I know a lot of people thought it was simply a case of being in or out, which is why I support a Ďno dealí scenario - I genuinely think that is what we voted for.

    In terms of the EU... I feel theyíve played this wrong. I donít know how EU countries are explaining this in their own countries, but digging their heels in and trying to make it difficult doesnít really indicate to me an all inclusive union.

    That, coupled with France and Germany calling for an EU army imo is a dangerous vision of the future. They are grasping, trying to retain control by bullying and demonstrations of strength in the hope no one else wants to leave - ever.

    And I say this as a remainer

    Leave a comment:

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