U.K. Politics: Nadine Dorries resigns her post as MP - or does she?

[heppolo]

It still baffles me that we were asked to vote in the first referendum without knowing what we were even voting for.

I know what you mean, though we could never have anticipated what sort of deal we could have expected. Whilst I think the campaigning - on both sides - was dramatically lacking in knowledge, ultimately it’s up to the individual to be informed... all the information was publicly available.

In the same way ignorance of the law isn’t an excuse if you commit a crime, I feel we have to accept ignorance of the consequences can’t apply here - which was a huge argument when the wrong result was announced

I don’t blame David Cameron for stepping down, but I think it’s telling that Boris ruined his career over all this. It’ll be interesting to see if he can actually bounce back.

The whole campaign was played as a ''status quo (remain) vs. change (leave)'' vote and in the current climate there is a significant number of people dissatisfied with the political system in general.

[Artoo]

I think Theresa May has thus far done a remarkable job of keeping the country somewhat stable up until now.

The calls for a no confidence vote irritate me beyond words - our political system is deeply flawed and if a man was in charge, we wouldn't be having this conversation (and the tone would be very different).

Oh I can’t agree.

I’m 100% confident the criticism of May has nothing to do with her being a woman. In fact, I’m reading a lot of media praise as to how strong, determined and resistant she is being.

Plus let’s not pretend a ‘vote of no confidence’ is a new thing, rarely to be used. Every PM has at least one rebel throwing it around from time to time, and in the last decade the Labour Party has gone through it a number of times... Corden had a vote if no confidence and was still re-instated by his party! Cameron left before he was pushed too.

Personally I wish there was more uniformity on how each party operates - each party has its own policy which I feel confuses matters. As a general rule, I find US politics much more fascinating to watch because their processes seem fairly straight forward, which I feel really inspires voters to get up and vote. Last time, May did bugger all despite calling the damn election unnecessarily

What I will say about May though is that I do think she’s trying her best and I am happy to see her try and pull it off - I don’t see an advantage in a change of PM at this stage. My main view is that the public simply:

1. Want Brexit to be over
2. Mostly for nothing to change
3. Our own border control and rules
4. Money to be spend on the NHS instead of the EU

Genuinely, I think that’s what people voted on. We didn’t expect all this bloody noise to go with it.

The thing about May though is that she keeps her head down, does the work and very rarely appears to that openly in view of the public. She isn’t media friendly like Blair or Cameron, who were natural showmen that made you believe what they had to say and that they could lead a government to achieve it.

Poor May has zero charisma and when her personality comes out, you sort of just cringe a bit. Which actually, sums up Brexit perfectly thus far too

[Artoo]

It still baffles me that we were asked to vote in the first referendum without knowing what we were even voting for.

I know what you mean, though we could never have anticipated what sort of deal we could have expected. Whilst I think the campaigning - on both sides - was dramatically lacking in knowledge, ultimately it’s up to the individual to be informed... all the information was publicly available.

In the same way ignorance of the law isn’t an excuse if you commit a crime, I feel we have to accept ignorance of the consequences can’t apply here - which was a huge argument when the wrong result was announced

I don’t blame David Cameron for stepping down, but I think it’s telling that Boris ruined his career over all this. It’ll be interesting to see if he can actually bounce back.

The whole campaign was played as a ''status quo (remain) vs. change (leave)'' vote and in the current climate there is a significant number of people dissatisfied with the political system in general.

Good. UK politics desperately needs a shake up and for people to engage more. It’s no good to moan imo, but to learn a lesson and get more involved moving forward.

[jio]

I think the question of whether a country stays or leaves the EU should be about something more than just what a deal that country can get. I mean the whole idea behind being tough with the UK and giving them a bad deal is only to send a message to other countries that might be tempted to leave (a strategy also practiced in Greece with little result- look at Italy now). A union which aims at ever closer union should be able to speak to peoples' hearts and minds and the EU is clearly not doing so. A union basing its existence at pure blackmail has no future really.

[Artoo]

I think the question of whether a country stays or leaves the EU should be about something more than just what a deal that country can get. I mean the whole idea behind being tough with the UK and giving them a bad deal is only to send a message to other countries that might be tempted to leave (a strategy also practiced in Greece with little result- look at Italy now). A union which aims at ever closer union should be able to speak in peoples' hearts and minds and the EU is clearly not doing so. A union basing its existence at pure blackmail has no future really.

A ‘deal’ wasn’t really discussed as far as I remember when we were voting on Brexit. I know a lot of people thought it was simply a case of being in or out, which is why I support a ‘no deal’ scenario - I genuinely think that is what we voted for.

In terms of the EU... I feel they’ve played this wrong. I don’t know how EU countries are explaining this in their own countries, but digging their heels in and trying to make it difficult doesn’t really indicate to me an all inclusive union.

That, coupled with France and Germany calling for an EU army imo is a dangerous vision of the future. They are grasping, trying to retain control by bullying and demonstrations of strength in the hope no one else wants to leave - ever.

And I say this as a remainer

[jio]

That's exactly what I am saying. Sure a deal was not discussed, sure they didn't realize that there would be very negative consequences in the short term, sure they just thought they would be saving money, sure they didn't count on Merkel and co being vengeful and so on but the bottomline is that all this is just noise. When your only argument to attempt and discredit the result is that "the people didn't realize how the EU can make us suffer if we leave", then you don't really have an argument.

How the EU countries are explaining this... well there is no "EU countries". Here for example there is no real interest on the issue but it is generally seen as the organization which is based somewhere far and being beyond any type of control attacking yet another country which dared to question its wisdom just because it can. I am pretty sure that the view from Germany or the Netherlands would be different though...

[MusicRecords]

I’m enjoying this, the value of the pound is going down...makes it easier for poor people like me to chav around buying Burberry

Like they let you in the shop.

Omg we should totally go for tea when I go in March

I’m washing my hair.

[Rihab]

I’m enjoying this, the value of the pound is going down...makes it easier for poor people like me to chav around buying Burberry

Like they let you in the shop.

Omg we should totally go for tea when I go in March

I’m washing my hair.

[aRat]

^ mess

[MusicRecords]

He fancies me, he just plays hard to get love a stubborn daddy

[Kpop]

I'd advise anyone who hasn't to (if possible) listen to James O'Brien on LBC radio Mon to Fri 10AM 1PM (UK time) dismantle the arguments of Brexiteers. If you can't listen to him there are clips of him on You Tube doing this. He is not interested in just believing Brexit will be a success; only in facts regarding Brexit.

He's been saying for the past 2 years that this Brexit nonsense would happen because people were groomed by papers like the Daily Mail and charlatans like Boris Johnson; Jacob Rees-Mogg and Farage. And still people listen to these liars.

There is no way the UK was going to get a better deal by being out of the EU; otherwise no country would be in it. The EU didn't blackmail the UK: Brexit is a UK thing. The EU has every right to protect it's rules and members. The deal that May has got means that the UK now has less control because it will become a ruler taker without a seat at the EU table. The opposite of what Brexiteers wanted and of course Remainers like me think: What's the point of leaving?

So we need a 2nd referendum on the deal: (1) May's deal; or (2) stay in the EU.

This will not be sorted with a G.E as the Tories won't vote for it .

[jio]

First of all I agree with the notion that the results of the previous referendum can be overturned just with another referendum. Secondly I totally disagree with everything else Kpop said. See one could argue for or against membership of the EU and both would be totally right depending on what they look at and for which time period etc. But being an EU member is essentially a political decision. You can both be rich or poor outside the EU and you can both be democratic or dictatorial both in and out the EU. That's even more true especially in the case of established economies/democracies such as the UK's or indeed Germany's and is less true for the emerging democracies/economies of Eastern EU and the re-emerging economies of southern EU. So it is a matter of what road one would choose and not of a right or wrong decision set in stone.

Now let me say that the sentence the EU has the right to protect its rules and members is pure nonsense. Sometimes I feel that we forget that the EU including its rules were established in order to serve its member states both individually and as a collective. Under no circumstance those rules were above the well-being of member states and its people, hence the veto power in the majority of decisions as well as the enormous powers of the European Council (which represents member states as individuals and not as a collective) in comparison to the supranational Commission and Parliament. But even if we accept that the EU has a right to protect its rules in expense of a member state that violates them, the truth is that currently the UK is not violating any rule. It is instead practicing a right given to it by the EU treaties: that of leaving. As of protecting its members part well... I think the UK is still a member so what we have here is essentially an oxymoron: The EU hurting the economic well-being of one member state in the name of preventing other members from practicing a right given to them by the EU treaties.

[Artoo]

First of all I agree with the notion that the results of the previous referendum can be overturned just with another referendum.

As it wasn’t legally binding, yes, it could. But by god it’ll never, ever happen. We can’t open that pandora’s Box. Just think of the hope it’ll give that devil woman up in Scotland.

The public voted. It makes no difference if we didn’t understand, if we were victims of flawed campaigning, or if we simply didnt envisage it being like this. It doesn’t matter. That wasn’t the question:

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

This is what was asked. No caveats, no room for misinterpretation, no noise attached. We were asked if we wanted in or out and we all decided. I opted in, but in the name of democracy, everyone should support leaving now it is what the majority wanted.

It doesn’t matter how much ignorance we had beforehand in terms of how it would play out. We had the opportunity to research our answer if we wanted to. Let’s face it, we all know politicians lie so if we believe them it’s our own fault. But if we aren’t happy with how Brexit has gone, it doesn’t mean we should have another referendum. We need to speak to our MPs and tell them not to support the deal on the table if we don’t like it.

That is what they are there for and there has never been a more important time than relying on our MPs to acknowledge our opinion and to act accordingly.

[heppolo]

First of all I agree with the notion that the results of the previous referendum can be overturned just with another referendum.

Just think of the hope it’ll give that devil woman up in Scotland.

Not as much of a devil as the one in DUP.

[Artoo]

First of all I agree with the notion that the results of the previous referendum can be overturned just with another referendum.

Just think of the hope it’ll give that devil woman up in Scotland.

Not as much of a devil as the one in DUP.

She isn’t after a 2nd referendum to leave the UK.

[jio]

Well I was just thinking how it can be overturned without hurting democracy and the rule of law. Obviously being overturned by the parliament may be legally feasible but it would make a mockery of democracy. So a second referendum is the only instrument which could possibly overturn the initial referendum. And I also agree with menime in that a referendum's results should be respected no matter why the people voted as they did. One could argue on plenty of not-so-ideal circumstances affecting the remain side as well but it doesn't really matter. As long as the vote was free and fair (and nobody suggested it wasn't) it counts.

Now do I think that the UK should overturn its decision through another referendum? Absolutely not. The way the UK has been pushed by the EU these last months means that it only has one option and that is to leave. If it overturns the results of the referendum it would have admitted defeat and that would mean a massive loss of power for the UK within the EU. Also a UK change of hearts would not be enough to stop the exit process. Although not clearly mentioned in the treaties, extending the negotiation period before the actual exit requires unanimity in the council so it is logical to think that stopping the exit process altogether would require the same thing. And that would give massive leverage to the EU to ask the UK for massive concessions to do so, especially since the UK would be received as weak. So the UK's EU membership would look nothing like it did before. It would also mean further strengthening the powers that currently rule in the EU and have brought what once was the greatest international organization to the sorry state it finds itself today so that's not good for any of us.

[heppolo]

First of all I agree with the notion that the results of the previous referendum can be overturned just with another referendum.

Just think of the hope it’ll give that devil woman up in Scotland.

Not as much of a devil as the one in DUP.

She isn’t after a 2nd referendum to leave the UK.

Some 18th century unionists are much more toxic than separatists.

[heppolo]

Re: UK Politics - UKMIX referendum on Brexit (POLL)

UK should have a no deal EU exit (a-la early 1991 soviet style break up). As we might remember, the post-Soviet states like Ukraine or Belarus only lost 30%-50% of their GDP during the 1992-1995 period, surely the UK won't end up worse off in the modern globalised economy.

[jio]

Re: UK Politics - UKMIX referendum on Brexit (POLL)

Is that a wish? Because you must be aware that the UK's situation right now is nothing like Belarus and Ukraine's in 1991. Also Russia itself lost about 30% of its economy by 1998 and surely you are not assuming that the EU is about to experience the same just because the UK leaves (although Greece did experience the same thanks to the EU-imposed austerity programs)

[heppolo]

surely you are not assuming that the EU is about to experience the same just because the UK leaves (although Greece did experience the same thanks to the EU-imposed austerity programs)

EU economy should also witness some form of an aftershock, not as significant of course.

Is that a wish? Because you must be aware that the UK's situation right now is nothing like Belarus and Ukraine's in 1991.

What's more ironic is that Gorbachev's project of USSR's re-branding (failed due to a coup the day before it should have been signed) involved a EU-style alliance instead of USSR.