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U.K. Politics: Supreme Court rules against the SNP in Scotland independence case

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  • Originally posted by jio

    You are just supporting policies that slowly but surely destroy any sense of community among european nations and the EU itself in the long run. And you call that pro-EU?
    I love all the punishments Germany received for soil-pollution and dirty air. It's not the people that are punished... it is their governments for doing shady and bad things which hurt everyone in the long run.
    My Chart

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    • Originally posted by SholasBoy
      At this point I would not want another referendum. I voted to remain, but if leave is what we're left with, then leave is what we should do. I think this is going to be like the Y2K thing, people expecting planes to fall out the sky on the day of brexit, but for the most part, I doubt I will feel much change.
      Y2K was a conspiracy theory; the no deal Brexit dreadful scenario is not a conspiracy theory

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Kpop
        Originally posted by SholasBoy
        At this point I would not want another referendum. I voted to remain, but if leave is what we're left with, then leave is what we should do. I think this is going to be like the Y2K thing, people expecting planes to fall out the sky on the day of brexit, but for the most part, I doubt I will feel much change.
        Y2K was a conspiracy theory; the no deal Brexit dreadful scenario is not a conspiracy theory

        I think heís referring more to the fact that nothing dramatic will happen - the world will keep turning, we wonít run out of food and very little in the day to day will change. Except perhaps the cost of living.
        Disco dancing with the lights down low…

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        • Originally posted by aRat


          Theresa May's Brexit plan will deliver a 3.9 per cent hit to GDP and workersí wages will fall, according to the best estimate of government officials.

          Every region of the country will be worse off in 15 yearsí time than if the UK stayed in the EU, with London suffering the greatest damage, the analysis finds.

          Real wages, after inflation, are expected to fall by 2.7 per cent Ė despite the claims of Brexiteers that cutting EU migration would allow pay to go up.

          The analysis does not put a cash figure on the impact of a 3.9 per cent drop in GDP, but other independent experts have suggested it equates to around £100bn a year Ė or £1,000 a head.
          Context - a £100 billion decline in GDP would still comfortably leave us as the third biggest economy in Europe (and given France's ageing workforce, we'd soon be back at #2). The UK will still easily be one of the wealthiest countries in the world, irrespective of Brexit - we just won't be as wealthy as we could've been (we've traded that seemingly in favour of wanting to regain control of our domestic affairs).

          We can't financially be better off leaving the European Union - it's just fantasy to ever suggest that it is was going to be that way, and if you voted for Brexit thinking that, then you really should've questioned your vote some more. And we can't leave and expect things to stay the same. Whilst the decision isn't what I would want it to be (leaving), I'm fairly comfortable that it's going to happen (unless some sort of legal challenge succeeds) and that as a country, we need to harness our energy and make the best of this situation.

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          • Completely agree Wayne, though Iím happy with a no deal too. Iím still not sure how sheíll push this through parliament, but considering she survived the attempted Ďvote of no confidenceí coup, it could all be more media manipulation (though I did watch PMQs and it was painful). Iíve long suspected May knows where the skeletons are anyway
            Disco dancing with the lights down low…

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            • May's deal will almost certainly fail at the meaningful vote on the 11th Dec. Parliament is not going allow a no deal Brexit: Project Fear is actually Project Reality. That's facts unlike the faith based fantasy of hard Brexiteers.

              The best way out of this mess for May and the UK is a 2nd referendum

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Kpop
                May's deal will almost certainly fail at the meaningful vote on the 11th Dec. Parliament is not going allow a no deal Brexit: Project Fear is actually Project Reality. That's facts unlike the faith based fantasy of hard Brexiteers.

                The best way out of this mess for May and the UK is a 2nd referendum

                A second referendum asking what? The same question? That will never happen and frankly, no one who really wants it. What an utter waste of time, money and democracy... and I say that as a remainer.

                If May loses the meaningful vote then we are going for a no deal exit. Iím not convinced she will win, but Iím not entirely convinced it will definitely be a loss either... if the Tory party didnít believe in their leader and her plan, sheíd be gone now. Itís as simple as that. Her party rebels tried and failed, suggesting the rest still believe in her.

                Should she lose, I think sheíd rather call another general election than have another referendum.
                Disco dancing with the lights down low…

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                • I would wanna see the meltdowns if they had a second referendum and people voted for Brexit again

                  But seriously, I feel bad for May...she's getting torn apart
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                  • Originally posted by menime123
                    Originally posted by Kpop
                    May's deal will almost certainly fail at the meaningful vote on the 11th Dec. Parliament is not going allow a no deal Brexit: Project Fear is actually Project Reality. That's facts unlike the faith based fantasy of hard Brexiteers.

                    The best way out of this mess for May and the UK is a 2nd referendum

                    A second referendum asking what? The same question? That will never happen and frankly, no one who really wants it. What an utter waste of time, money and democracy... and I say that as a remainer.

                    If May loses the meaningful vote then we are going for a no deal exit. Iím not convinced she will win, but Iím not entirely convinced it will definitely be a loss either... if the Tory party didnít believe in their leader and her plan, sheíd be gone now. Itís as simple as that. Her party rebels tried and failed, suggesting the rest still believe in her.

                    Should she lose, I think sheíd rather call another general election than have another referendum.

                    2nd referendum asking A: May's deal; B: leave without a deal; or C: Remain in EU . More democracy is not a waste of democracy.

                    Tory party doesn't believe in her plan or her; but Brexit is such a poison chalice no one wanted to touch it. May cannot call a general election.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Kpop
                      2nd referendum asking A: May's deal; B: leave without a deal; or C: Remain in EU . More democracy is not a waste of democracy.
                      No, but I hardly doubt we'd be contemplating another referendum if the remain vote had won out - it smacks of hypocrisy.

                      Yours,
                      A keen remainer.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Kpop
                        2nd referendum asking A: May's deal; B: leave without a deal; or C: Remain in EU . More democracy is not a waste of democracy.

                        Tory party doesn't believe in her plan or her; but Brexit is such a poison chalice no one wanted to touch it. May cannot call a general election.
                        None of this is more democracy. Democracy is accepting we have already been asked whether we want to remain in the EU. More democracy is the public engaging with their MP and telling them to vote for A or B. That is what your MP is for - to express your views in Parliament. Tell your representative what you want them to do.

                        A second referendum cannot be allowed to happen. We canít tell that Sturgeon woman to pipe down every time she wants another independence referendum then keep asking for another referendum in the hope of remaining in the EU.

                        In the same way ignorance of the law is not a defence for breaking it, voting to leave without knowing the full implications is entirely down to the individual. If the individual relied on the media for their facts on Brexit then that is their own fault. We all had the same opportunity to research it and make an informed decision. Itís like watching a movie and doing an exam on novel - if you donít put the work in you canít moan at the outcome.

                        All we can do now is decide to back Mayís deal or push for a no deal exit. I have already emailed my MP and canít stress enough how this is probably the biggest decision an MP will make in our lifetime - make sure your voice is heard and tell them how you want them to vote.
                        Disco dancing with the lights down low…

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                        • Originally posted by menime123
                          Originally posted by Kpop
                          2nd referendum asking A: May's deal; B: leave without a deal; or C: Remain in EU . More democracy is not a waste of democracy.

                          Tory party doesn't believe in her plan or her; but Brexit is such a poison chalice no one wanted to touch it. May cannot call a general election.
                          None of this is more democracy. Democracy is accepting we have already been asked whether we want to remain in the EU. More democracy is the public engaging with their MP and telling them to vote for A or B. That is what your MP is for - to express your views in Parliament. Tell your representative what you want them to do.

                          A second referendum cannot be allowed to happen. We canít tell that Sturgeon woman to pipe down every time she wants another independence referendum then keep asking for another referendum in the hope of remaining in the EU.

                          In the same way ignorance of the law is not a defence for breaking it, voting to leave without knowing the full implications is entirely down to the individual. If the individual relied on the media for their facts on Brexit then that is their own fault. We all had the same opportunity to research it and make an informed decision. Itís like watching a movie and doing an exam on novel - if you donít put the work in you canít moan at the outcome.

                          All we can do now is decide to back Mayís deal or push for a no deal exit. I have already emailed my MP and canít stress enough how this is probably the biggest decision an MP will make in our lifetime - make sure your voice is heard and tell them how you want them to vote.
                          Certainly ignorance of the law is not a defence for breaking it; but we are are not talking about a section of the population committing a criminal offence if they had then that any punishment would be mainly affecting them only, if they were caught. However, the EU vote is not comparable because only a minority of the population voted to leave the EU which will harm the majority. People were lied to and groomed into leaving the EU.

                          I'm minded to say forget a 2nd referendum and just rescind article 50 and so remain in the EU. Parliament/ The government has a duty not to act against the interests of the UK. Leaving the EU is acting against the interests of the UK. The only other viable alternative is a Norway type deal. Leaving the EU without a deal would be catastrophic and that's why no deal is dead in the water.

                          Brexit is a huge mess (including The Government) and this was predicted all a long by knowledgeable commentators who deal in facts not fantasy. Theresa May is probably the most incompetent PM the UK has ever had.

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                          • In all honesty, throwing words around like Ďgroomedí just belittles the voter and is the last desperate attempt by a remainer to undermine the result. You do not know how much effort a person that voted to leave the EU put into making that decision.

                            Everyone, from the village idiot to Stephen Hawking had the same right to a vote - what they chose to do with that vote and their process of how they came to decide that is entirely their own. We cannot blame the media - they manipulate. We cannot believe politicians - they lie. We cannot trust the campaigners - theyíre biased. But we knew all this before we voted. Itís the same every election cycle.

                            I wanted to stay in the EU but their actions have been suspect since the vote and Iím wildly concerned about this talk of an EU army. But more than anything I believe in democracy and if Brexit is what my country wants, Brexit is what I will support - only once you accept that it will happen, can you begin to ask what you can do to influence how it will happen.

                            Ultimately though I feel that you fail to accept that itís the people that have decided that Brexit is in the interest of the UK. Until you accept that, you wonít ever be able to discuss and debate Brexit in an unbiased way. A refusal to accept Brexit isnít a slight against the politicians - itís saying your family, friends, neighbours and fellow Britons were tricked, fooled, coherced and bribed into something you were too clever to fall for... which frankly makes you the most naive of all.
                            Disco dancing with the lights down low…

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                            • I voted for stay in the EU.
                              I am not trying to seduce you... Would you like me to seduce you? Is that what you're trying to tell me?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Erotica
                                I voted for stay in the EU.
                                And I voted for Hillary


                                Reality is it didnít go our ďwayĒ so we gotta deal
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                                • Originally posted by menime123
                                  In all honesty, throwing words around like Ďgroomedí just belittles the voter and is the last desperate attempt by a remainer to undermine the result. You do not know how much effort a person that voted to leave the EU put into making that decision.

                                  Everyone, from the village idiot to Stephen Hawking had the same right to a vote - what they chose to do with that vote and their process of how they came to decide that is entirely their own. We cannot blame the media - they manipulate. We cannot believe politicians - they lie. We cannot trust the campaigners - theyíre biased. But we knew all this before we voted. Itís the same every election cycle.

                                  I wanted to stay in the EU but their actions have been suspect since the vote and Iím wildly concerned about this talk of an EU army. But more than anything I believe in democracy and if Brexit is what my country wants, Brexit is what I will support - only once you accept that it will happen, can you begin to ask what you can do to influence how it will happen.

                                  Ultimately though I feel that you fail to accept that itís the people that have decided that Brexit is in the interest of the UK. Until you accept that, you wonít ever be able to discuss and debate Brexit in an unbiased way. A refusal to accept Brexit isnít a slight against the politicians - itís saying your family, friends, neighbours and fellow Britons were tricked, fooled, coherced and bribed into something you were too clever to fall for... which frankly makes you the most naive of all.
                                  What the EU has done is protect the best interests of it's members, and it's done it well. Members of the club get the benefits.
                                  I'm fine with EU army: better to be in one than on the outside. Unity is a good thing. Although if the UK stays in the EU the UK could veto that and there would be no EU army. With the UK outside of the EU there is more likelihood of an EU army forming.

                                  People have a right to change their mind that's true democracy. For example, if someone had seen a description of a nice 4 bedroomed house and thought I'd like to buy that; but when they actually visited the house it turned out to be a shed they would quite rightly change there mind. People did not vote to make themselves poorer. Democracy is not immutable. Additionally, there are the elderly people many of whom voted for Brexit who are now dead. In contrast, there are the young people who could not vote in 2016 who are now of voting age and this demographic is more likely to vote remain. It's their future that's most at stake.

                                  Brexit is not in the interests of the UK therefore I cannot support it: Brexit is based on untruths and false promises. That is not being biased that's being factual.

                                  I never fell for the Brexiteers' lies and so on, not because I'm so clever but because I listened to and read the experts of which the large majority said that it would harm the UK. If I had just read The Daily Mail or The Sun I might have fell for the Brexit propaganda.

                                  Not all politicians lie, so Please don't try to tar them all with the same brush just because the likes of Boris Johnson, David Davis and Farage spout BS.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by menime123
                                    Ultimately though I feel that you fail to accept that itís the people that have decided that Brexit is in the interest of the UK. Until you accept that, you wonít ever be able to discuss and debate Brexit in an unbiased way.
                                    It goes both ways. As long as you feel to accept that almost half of the voters decided that Brexit was not in the interest of the UK, you won't ever be able to discuss and debate Brexit in an unbiased way.
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                                    • Originally posted by RayRay
                                      Originally posted by menime123
                                      Ultimately though I feel that you fail to accept that itís the people that have decided that Brexit is in the interest of the UK. Until you accept that, you wonít ever be able to discuss and debate Brexit in an unbiased way.
                                      It goes both ways. As long as you feel to accept that almost half of the voters decided that Brexit was not in the interest of the UK, you won't ever be able to discuss and debate Brexit in an unbiased way.

                                      I voted remain. I can debate why we should remain a lot more than why we should leave. But that doesnít matter because the people majority of people wanted to leave. It doesnít matter if almost half didnít want it, democracy is that the majority (by whatever margin) rules and the majority decided Brexit was the best way forward for the UK.

                                      And this recent discussion hasnít been about the benefits of remaining - Kpop is talking about ways to overturn a demoncratic vote and stop the will of the people.

                                      Iím a Labour support and Remainer and Iím not impressed with the current Tory government and Brexit. But why should I spit my dummy out and moan when itís what the majority of people wanted? Democracy means accepting a democratically determined outcome.
                                      Disco dancing with the lights down low…

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                                      • Iím a Labour support and Remainer and Iím not impressed with the current Tory government and Brexit. But why should I spit my dummy out and moan when itís what the majority of people wanted? Democracy means accepting a democratically determined outcome.
                                        Unless there were wrong or nefarious activities which influenced the outcome.
                                        Waffles are checked cookies

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                                        • Originally posted by heppolo
                                          Iím a Labour support and Remainer and Iím not impressed with the current Tory government and Brexit. But why should I spit my dummy out and moan when itís what the majority of people wanted? Democracy means accepting a democratically determined outcome.
                                          Unless there were wrong or nefarious activities which influenced the outcome.

                                          Nope. The people are responsible for forming their own conclusions.
                                          Disco dancing with the lights down low…

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                                          • Originally posted by menime123
                                            Originally posted by heppolo
                                            Iím a Labour support and Remainer and Iím not impressed with the current Tory government and Brexit. But why should I spit my dummy out and moan when itís what the majority of people wanted? Democracy means accepting a democratically determined outcome.
                                            Unless there were wrong or nefarious activities which influenced the outcome.

                                            Nope. The people are responsible for forming their own conclusions.
                                            Well, if the infromation about Leave campaign breaking numerous rules had been uncovered before the actual vote (incl. campaign finance) it could have affected some the voters. A certain percentage of voters made their decision on the basis of it being ''anti-establishment'', yet ''in good faith''.
                                            Waffles are checked cookies

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                                            • Imagine having ''Arron Banks & Rupert Murdoch finance our campaign'' printed on the campaign bus instead of this
                                              Waffles are checked cookies

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                                              • Originally posted by heppolo
                                                Originally posted by menime123
                                                Originally posted by heppolo
                                                Iím a Labour support and Remainer and Iím not impressed with the current Tory government and Brexit. But why should I spit my dummy out and moan when itís what the majority of people wanted? Democracy means accepting a democratically determined outcome.
                                                Unless there were wrong or nefarious activities which influenced the outcome.

                                                Nope. The people are responsible for forming their own conclusions.
                                                Well, if the infromation about Leave campaign breaking numerous rules had been uncovered before the actual vote (incl. campaign finance) it could have affected some the voters. A certain percentage of voters made their decision on the basis of it being ''anti-establishment'', yet ''in good faith''.

                                                https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8668771.html

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                                                • [youtube:3u2or99m]Tjp5OmoDYQM[/youtube:3u2or99m]

                                                  LOL

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                                                  • Omg.

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