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U.K. Politics: Supreme Court rules against the SNP in Scotland independence case

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  • SholasBoy
    replied
    Originally posted by Artoo View Post
    So is there anyone not striking this Christmas?
    Couriers

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  • Artoo
    replied
    So is there anyone not striking this Christmas?

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  • Artoo
    replied
    Originally posted by Wayne View Post
    If all else fails, and Sturgeon does get her way, I don't think it's clear cut - just look @ the opinion polls:
    I agree, but now she’s got two years to play the whole ‘they’ll never take our freedom’ card - it isn’t just about independence now, but a matter of principle and democracy.

    Even if a person want to vote no in a referendum, they don’t even have the right to do that because they’re not entitled to a vote. It’s going to win the SNP support and change the polls. It was a smart move and I rarely say that about British politics

    I’m just wondering what happens when we have an election, the SNP wins big in Scotland again and Westminster continues to deny them a vote - what’s the next step?

    I’m sure there’ll be an article published with the answer shortly

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  • jordi_89
    replied
    I hope the Scottish succeed.

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  • Wayne
    replied
    On the matter of Scotland's independence, I'm obviously delighted with the Supreme Court's ruling (though not surprised, it was fairly clean cut) - I really want the UK to remain a united kingdom. If all else fails, and Sturgeon does get her way, I don't think it's clear cut - just look @ the opinion polls:



    It's very split, with "no" more favourable than "yes" - however, c5-8% seem to be undecided and it is that group that will tip any future vote. If Sturgeon does secure a vote on independence, I hope it's preceded by a re-vote on Brexit for the UK.

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  • Thriller
    replied
    I’ve always seen myself as British too but you can’t blame the Scots who want independence as Britain is so England-centric.

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  • Artoo
    replied
    Watching Sturgeon’s press conference - an impassioned speech and as much as I do not want Scotland to leave the union (and never will want that), she has played her hand incredibly well. They asked the Supreme Court the right questions, probably knowing they would probably be denied, and thus now have a legal judgement that gives them the ammunition to now make this a question of democracy and quite honestly, freedom.

    So the SNP will campaign during the next general election for independence and view it as a de facto referendum. It is rare we see someone winning when playing the system, so credit where credit is due. I don’t support independent but I do support democracy. It comes down to whether you view Scotland as a separate country or whether you view the United Kingdom as the one and only. I’ve never been ‘English’, I’ve always been “British’.

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  • Artoo
    replied

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  • Artoo
    replied
    UK Supreme Court confirms Scotland does not have the legal authority to hold a second independence referendum.

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  • Thriller
    replied
    Sounds like a lunatic… and the fact he’s a Sir is shambolic.

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  • Wayne
    replied
    Williamson resigns after bullying claims

    Sir Gavin Williamson resigns as government minister after bullying allegations and says he aims to “clear my name of any wrongdoing”.

    He said he "refuted" how his "past conduct" had been characterised but said the allegations were becoming a distraction for "the good work the government is doing".

    He added he would comply with a complaints process concerning messages he sent a colleague and that he had apologised to the recipient.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63563263
    Bye.

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  • Artoo
    replied
    Coronation bank holiday confirmed for Monday 8th May 2023.

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  • Artoo
    replied
    Originally posted by westhammer View Post

    He was up against a woman though - if it was against a white ‘British’ man he wouldn’t have stood a shot. I think people wanting Boris back despite everything he did also speaks to white male ideals - it’s an unconscious racial bias
    Possibly, but we have absolutely nothing to back up that claim. Whilst I readily admit that there are racist Tory supporters (both outright and unconsciously), there’s nothing to back up the claim racism is why Rishi lost and that racism is why Truss won.

    The leadership race was actually the first time Tory members have ever actually had the opportunity to vote for a woman (both Thatcher and May were voted in by MPs) or for a man that wasn’t white. So it was nee ground all around.

    Rishi was actually doing incredibly well in opinion polls across most of covid, but ultimately overplayed his hand. He isn’t a particularly nice guy and his politics are massively flawed.

    I mean look at this rubbish:



    I just think that to blame racism for Rishi’s initial defeat is shortsighted and ties into a narrative people chose to believe. I don’t deny that it played a part, but the guy is not a saint and I just think his politics and conduct got in the way more than the colour of his skin.

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  • westhammer
    replied
    Originally posted by Artoo View Post

    Based on what though? Because the statistics don’t back this up. He lost the initial leadership contest by less than 8% so clearly it wasn’t a huge issue for (almost) half of the voters, and when it gets down to the wire like it did, surely logic dictates policy becomes the deciding factor?

    You also have to look at party membership demographics as oppose to larger Tory voter demographics - because in the scheme of things, very few people pay to become a voting member of a party. According to the Financial Times ‘About 80 per cent are thought to be “ABC1s”, the name of the highest-paid and most-educated demographic groups’, which suggests to me that Liz’s promise of lower taxes and uncapped bonuses swung the vote for her rather than outright racism towards Rishi.
    He was up against a woman though - if it was against a white ‘British’ man he wouldn’t have stood a shot. I think people wanting Boris back despite everything he did also speaks to white male ideals - it’s an unconscious racial bias

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  • Artoo
    replied
    Originally posted by westhammer View Post
    Racism definitely plays a big part.
    Based on what though? Because the statistics don’t back this up. He lost the initial leadership contest by less than 8% so clearly it wasn’t a huge issue for (almost) half of the voters, and when it gets down to the wire like it did, surely logic dictates policy becomes the deciding factor?

    You also have to look at party membership demographics as oppose to larger Tory voter demographics - because in the scheme of things, very few people pay to become a voting member of a party. According to the Financial Times ‘About 80 per cent are thought to be “ABC1s”, the name of the highest-paid and most-educated demographic groups’, which suggests to me that Liz’s promise of lower taxes and uncapped bonuses swung the vote for her rather than outright racism towards Rishi.

    Leave a comment:


  • westhammer
    replied
    Originally posted by Artoo View Post
    Whilst there are definitely racist Tories, I genuinely don’t believe that was a deciding factor in Rishi’s defeat in the initial leadership bid. He only lost the membership vote by 8%, and had become a divisive and somewhat controversial figure in the build up to Boris leaving.

    I think he was too close to Boris, complicit in some of Boris’ mistakes, and was also guilty of breaking lockdown laws he helped create (investigated and fined by the police). People just wanted a fresh break from the Boris era.
    Racism definitely plays a big part. The UK is so xenophobic at the moment and immigration (into which race is entangled) is a big factor. The Tories are a privileged white mans faction

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  • theMathematician
    replied
    Originally posted by Artoo View Post
    To underestimate the whole partygate affair would be a massive oversight and I think it’s going to be a really big issue when the next election is held.
    Well, was Sunak even asking for heavier and heavier restrictions? If that was the case and he didn't stick them himself, now that would be a problem. On the other hand, someone like Johnson seemed like someone who preferred as few restrictions as possible and the other ones were announced to please others but not really because he was convinced by them himself.

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  • Artoo
    replied
    Originally posted by greek_boy View Post


    Truss was also part of BoJo's gov, plus I don't really think the Tory members didn't vote for Sunak because he was 'complicit'.
    The chancellor position is the second highest in government and the UK has a history of punishing complicit politicians at the ballot box - I still believe Gordon Brown lost his one election because he had been a Blairite rather than his own policies.

    Ultimately Liz Truss ran her leadership campaign appealing to core Conservative values. She championed lower taxes, uncapped bonuses, energy support packages, a roadmap towards energy independence and a whole other wave of things that was the oppose of what both Boris had, and Rishi was, pedalling.

    We now know it was a shortcut down a one way street towards national bankruptcy, but that doesn’t mean Liz didn’t have the right policies for her party members. Apparently around 80% of the party membership is in the ‘highest-paid and most-educated’ demographic, so lower taxes and uncapped bonuses were a huge draw to Liz.

    I don’t deny that racism exists but I just don’t believe it was a deciding factor in Rishi losing the leadership bid - I think it’s really easy to blame that without digging into the actual problems, and Rishi is far from problem free. To underestimate the whole partygate affair would be a massive oversight and I think it’s going to be a really big issue when the next election is held.

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  • theMathematician
    replied
    Originally posted by greek_boy View Post


    But I don't really think the Tories appeal to voters who care about diversity and inclusion... It's quite the opposite, actually.
    In fact, that's even more inclusive because if a Tory reaches a high political function because he/she is the right person for the job and not because of some demographic factors. When the last German Family Minister dropped off, her party had as criteria that her successor had to come from their party (It's a three-party-coalition, so there would've been other options.), be a woman and come from a certain political tendency within their party. Actual experience in that political field didn't seem as important.

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  • theMathematician
    replied
    Originally posted by Artoo View Post
    I think he was too close to Boris, complicit in some of Boris’ mistakes, and was also guilty of breaking lockdown laws he helped create (investigated and fined by the police). People just wanted a fresh break from the Boris era.
    I never got why the Britons made such a big deal out of it when quite a few politicians did it in my country, and while there was a medial outrage, there were no real consequences for the politicians involved.

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  • greek_boy
    replied
    Originally posted by jordi_89 View Post

    As a "selling point" for their candidate to try to gain votes. I.

    But I don't really think the Tories appeal to voters who care about diversity and inclusion... It's quite the opposite, actually.

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  • greek_boy
    replied
    Originally posted by Artoo View Post
    Whilst there are definitely racist Tories, I genuinely don’t believe that was a deciding factor in Rishi’s defeat in the initial leadership bid. He only lost the membership vote by 8%, and had become a divisive and somewhat controversial figure in the build up to Boris leaving.

    I think he was too close to Boris, complicit in some of Boris’ mistakes, and was also guilty of breaking lockdown laws he helped create (investigated and fined by the police). People just wanted a fresh break from the Boris era.

    Truss was also part of BoJo's gov, plus I don't really think the Tory members didn't vote for Sunak because he was 'complicit'.

    Leave a comment:


  • Artoo
    replied
    Whilst there are definitely racist Tories, I genuinely don’t believe that was a deciding factor in Rishi’s defeat in the initial leadership bid. He only lost the membership vote by 8%, and had become a divisive and somewhat controversial figure in the build up to Boris leaving.

    I think he was too close to Boris, complicit in some of Boris’ mistakes, and was also guilty of breaking lockdown laws he helped create (investigated and fined by the police). People just wanted a fresh break from the Boris era.

    Leave a comment:


  • jordi_89
    replied
    Originally posted by greek_boy View Post

    won't be used by any party for what purpose?
    As a "selling point" for their candidate to try to gain votes. It's been all the rage in the US for years and in other countries some parties have also adapted this strategy because they think it always works. I'd rather they just explained their policies better for the average voters.

    Leave a comment:


  • greek_boy
    replied
    Originally posted by jordi_89 View Post

    I know, but now that element (their race & gender) won't be used in the next election by any party because (some) minorities have been in power already.
    won't be used by any party for what purpose?

    Leave a comment:

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