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UK Politics: MPs back plan to leave EU on 31 January

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  • The UK General Election - the Tory win 'by the numbers':

    • 66.4m people live in the UK.
    • 55.0m of that number have the right to vote.
    • 47.5m registeredd to vote.
    • 31.9m actually bothered voting.
    • 17.9m was the number that didn't vote for the Conservatives.
    • 13.9m was the number that did vote for the Conservatives.


    To the surprise of nobody, "first past the post" has once again ensured that the governing party arguably rules with unfair levels of power.

    Comment


    • The whole system is flawed but will never change. The fact that a party is in power when more voters don’t want it to be than do is just stupid.

      Also, those 20-odd million people who didn’t vote should be prosecuted. It should be law to vote.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Wayne View Post
        The UK General Election - the Tory win 'by the numbers':

        • 66.4m people live in the UK.
        • 55.0m of that number have the right to vote.
        • 47.5m registeredd to vote.
        • 31.9m actually bothered voting.
        • 17.9m was the number that didn't vote for the Conservatives.
        • 13.9m was the number that did vote for the Conservatives.


        To the surprise of nobody, "first past the post" has once again ensured that the governing party arguably rules with unfair levels of power.
        Well I have to say that, despite and irrelevant to what I think about the results, this kind of posts are misleading despite presenting accurate information. In any democracy the winning party does not get the majority of the vote in elections where more than 2 parties compete. The conservatives' 13.9m was more than labour's 10.2 so there is no question over the legitimacy of the system and its results (as you are suggesting). What's more is that the conservatives saw an increase whereas labour so a drop in their percentage in comparison to the previous elections. Also the fact that the winning party gets only a fraction of the numer of the people actually eligible to vote in the election is very much in line with every EU election. So I wouldn't question the legitimacy of the election if I were you.
        jio CHARTS NOW:27/1/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post10339063

        Comment


        • Originally posted by jio View Post
          Well I have to say that, despite and irrelevant to what I think about the results, this kind of posts are misleading despite presenting accurate information. In any democracy the winning party does not get the majority of the vote in elections where more than 2 parties compete. The conservatives' 13.9m was more than labour's 10.2 so there is no question over the legitimacy of the system and its results (as you are suggesting).
          That isn't what I'm suggesting - the Conservatives absolutely have the highest share of votes in terms of a single party and I don't dispute that. But the arguments surrounding proportional representation are as relevant as they have ever been.

          Originally posted by jio View Post
          What's more is that the conservatives saw an increase whereas labour so a drop in their percentage in comparison to the previous elections. Also the fact that the winning party gets only a fraction of the numer of the people actually eligible to vote in the election is very much in line with every EU election. So I wouldn't question the legitimacy of the election if I were you.
          Labour being less popular does not detract from the facts as they stand - under a proportional representation system, the Conservatives would not have this level of power...

          Party FPTP System d'Hondt System
          Conservative Party 365 288
          Labour Party 202 216
          SNP 48 28
          Liberal Democrats 11 70
          Green Party 1 12
          Brexit Party 0 10
          Plaid Cymru 4 4
          Under a proportional representation system, the Conservatives would have 44% of parliamentary power in the Commons - still, more than any other single party but certainly not enough to give them the mandate they have under FPTP. To your point about them increasing their numbers - the Lib Dems increased their numbers by over 4% (the highest of any of the major parties) and they actually lost a seat...how can that be right?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by jio View Post
            As if the EU itself is not practicing racism...
            I know what you mean, but the current EU commission and the 28 national governments ≠ 'the EU'.

            The EU and its institutions are not inherently racist. It's the voters and elected leaders who are currently forcing it to practice racism in some situations. I don't agree with that, but blaming 'the EU' is too easy. Ultimately, the voters and politicians are to blame.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Rihab View Post
              I know what you mean, but the current EU commission and the 28 national governments ≠ 'the EU'.

              The EU and its institutions are not inherently racist. It's the voters and elected leaders who are currently forcing it to practice racism in some situations. I don't agree with that, but blaming 'the EU' is too easy. Ultimately, the voters and politicians are to blame.
              Nonsense. Once you practice racism, you are racist. Yes, you may not be inherently racist but who cares? You are still racist
              jio CHARTS NOW:27/1/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post10339063

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Wayne View Post
                That isn't what I'm suggesting - the Conservatives absolutely have the highest share of votes in terms of a single party and I don't dispute that. But the arguments surrounding proportional representation are as relevant as they have ever been.



                Labour being less popular does not detract from the facts as they stand - under a proportional representation system, the Conservatives would not have this level of power...

                Party FPTP System d'Hondt System
                Conservative Party 365 288
                Labour Party 202 216
                SNP 48 28
                Liberal Democrats 11 70
                Green Party 1 12
                Brexit Party 0 10
                Plaid Cymru 4 4
                Under a proportional representation system, the Conservatives would have 44% of parliamentary power in the Commons - still, more than any other single party but certainly not enough to give them the mandate they have under FPTP. To your point about them increasing their numbers - the Lib Dems increased their numbers by over 4% (the highest of any of the major parties) and they actually lost a seat...how can that be right?
                Again many countries have systems designed to make the country more governable by giving a prim to the first party. That's not unique in the UK. Is it ideal? No. But as Italy would have told you, proportional representation doesn't come without its problems also. So again there is nothing unusual in the British system...
                jio CHARTS NOW:27/1/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post10339063

                Comment




                • So if that is accurate, we have the people who will mostly be dead in 20 years to blame. Those who will live with the consequences the longest do not want this government! Young people need to bloody vote!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by jio View Post
                    Again many countries have systems designed to make the country more governable by giving a prim to the first party. That's not unique in the UK. Is it ideal? No. But as Italy would have told you, proportional representation doesn't come without its problems also. So again there is nothing unusual in the British system...
                    Each system has its flaws, but I stand by my view - the Tory's ended up with 56% of the voting power in the Commons based on a 43% voting share. It's so unequal.

                    Though I don't dispute your point about proportional representation, that system is much more reflective of genuine democracy at work than first past the post.

                    I wonder if we'll ever see genuine voting reform in the UK...

                    Comment


                    • What will be very interesting is when Brexit occurs and the dust eventually settles, who will the Brexiteers, racists and ignorants then blame for all of their problems, which won’t have magically disappeared?

                      Comment


                      • Bottomline is that you are all finding things to diss about the UK and its people (things that can be found in any european country more or less) simply because you don't like the choice that they (repeatedly) made. But the funny thing is that by releasing all this negative energy on the peoples' level, you are just proving the Brexiteers correct. You are proving there is no real European union because if there was, surely a member of the family moving out wouldn't have been such a big deal now, would it?
                        jio CHARTS NOW:27/1/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post10339063

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Thriller View Post
                          What will be very interesting is when Brexit occurs and the dust eventually settles, who will the Brexiteers, racists and ignorants then blame for all of their problems, which won’t have magically disappeared?
                          Poles, black and brown people, women and homosexuals won't magically disappear on Jan 31, I'm sure. Also, there'll likely still be some kind of relationship with the EU, which the Farages and Rees-Moggs will try to destroy.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Rihab View Post
                            Poles, black and brown people, women and homosexuals won't magically disappear on Jan 31, I'm sure. Also, there'll likely still be some kind of relationship with the EU, which the Farages and Rees-Moggs will try to destroy.
                            I agree. However, will the UK install concentration camps for these people like the US did? I hope not. I fear for the freedom of the people.
                            My Chart

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Wayne View Post
                              Each system has its flaws, but I stand by my view - the Tory's ended up with 56% of the voting power in the Commons based on a 43% voting share. It's so unequal.

                              Though I don't dispute your point about proportional representation, that system is much more reflective of genuine democracy at work than first past the post.

                              I wonder if we'll ever see genuine voting reform in the UK...
                              I agree 100%.
                              My Chart

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by stevyy View Post
                                I agree. However, will the UK install concentration camps for these people like the US did? I hope not. I fear for the freedom of the people.
                                There are concentration camps in Europe right now and they are not in the UK... but you wouldn't care for something operated in the name of the EU now, would you?
                                jio CHARTS NOW:27/1/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post10339063

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by jio View Post
                                  There are concentration camps in Europe right now and they are not in the UK... but you wouldn't care for something operated in the name of the EU now, would you?
                                  What makes you say that?
                                  My Chart

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by stevyy View Post
                                    What makes you say that?
                                    Moria refugee centre in Greece. Essentially an overcrowded concentration camp, announced at least a year before its creation by an EU government, created by an EU agreement, keep filling up due to EU policies, partly paid by EU money and under EU jurisdiction solving an EU problem...

                                    I think you wouldn't care because it's an EU thing so it's OK. If Trump does it we protest, if the EU does it, it's OK
                                    jio CHARTS NOW:27/1/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post10339063

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by jio View Post
                                      Moria refugee centre in Greece. Essentially an overcrowded concentration camp, announced at least a year before its creation by an EU government, created by an EU agreement, keep filling up due to EU policies, partly paid by EU money and under EU jurisdiction solving an EU problem...
                                      Then that camps must be dissolved immediately.
                                      My Chart

                                      Comment


                                      • It won't dissolve because it serves an EU policy. Unless of course another concentration camp (the one Turkey proposes in Syria and the one that Germany supports which is based on massive ethnic cleansing) goes ahead.
                                        jio CHARTS NOW:27/1/2020: https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...3#post10339063

                                        Comment


                                        • After another election defeat Zac Goldsmith was given a cabinet position and a peerage
                                          Waffles are checked cookies

                                          Comment


                                          • Originally posted by heppolo View Post
                                            After another election defeat Zac Goldsmith was given a cabinet position and a peerage
                                            He's the second person - Nicky Morgan will also be seated in the Lords as she's now no longer in an MP position and she'll retain a cabinet position as Culture Secretary.

                                            It's ridiculous.

                                            Comment


                                            • Originally posted by Wayne View Post
                                              He's the second person - Nicky Morgan will also be seated in the Lords as she's now no longer in an MP position and she'll retain a cabinet position as Culture Secretary.

                                              It's ridiculous.
                                              Shows the quality of those elected MPs if BoJo had to dig deep into the losers' bench.
                                              Waffles are checked cookies

                                              Comment


                                              • The UK is due to leave the European Union (EU) on 31 January 2020, after Prime Minister Boris Johnson's Brexit deal was passed by MPs.

                                                On 20 December 2019, MPs voted 358 to 234 - a majority of 124 - in favour of the Withdrawal Agreement Bill, which now goes on to further scrutiny in Parliament.

                                                Assuming the European Parliament also gives the green light, the UK will formally leave the EU on 31 January with a withdrawal deal.

                                                However, this would only mark the next step in the Brexit process. Following its departure, the UK will enter a transition period until 31 December 2020.

                                                During this period, the UK's trading relationship with the EU will remain the same while the two sides negotiate a free trade deal. At the same time, many other aspects of the UK's future relationship with the EU - including law enforcement, data sharing and security - will need to be agreed.

                                                If a trade deal is ready in time, the UK's new relationship with the EU can begin immediately after the transition. If not, the UK faces the prospect of having to trade with no agreement in force. This would mean checks and tariffs on UK goods travelling to the EU.

                                                Mr Johnson has also ruled out any form of extension to the transition period, meaning the clock is already ticking.

                                                Comment


                                                • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
                                                  How did the vote go in everyone's constituencies? I voted Labour and got a Labour MP.
                                                  I voted Labour, as a tactical vote, and got a Labour MP.

                                                  Result was a shocking example of how badly First Past The Post works in terms of actually representing the views of the people. I would much rather we had something more proportional like we have in Wales and Scotland, where we still have perfectly functioning governments, even when they're frequently either minority governments or coalitions.

                                                  The other interesting thing was the breakdown of the votes - as analysed by the "exit poll" (which is always near enough spot on). It suggested that the old days of "working class = Labour / middle class = Tory" has totally broken down. In fact, working class people were the more likely demographic to vote Tory, albeit not by that much. The big differences were a truly stark differential in ages - younger people really overwhelmingly voting Labour (65%+) - and older people overwhelmingly voting Tory (65%+). There has been a bias before of younger people voting Labour and older ones voting Tory, but never to that extent, AFAIK. Also, and make of it what you will, a majority of people (i.e. over 50%) who quit school at 16 voted Tory, whilst if only those with degrees had voted, we would actually have a Labour majority government.

                                                  Going forward, Labour have the real challenge to deal with at present - where do they go from here? Their most popular periods in terms of share of the vote were in 1997 and 2001 (Blair prior to him going into war in Iraq) and in 2017 (at the height of Corbyn-mania). Quite how you get the best of both of those and put them together, I'm not sure, but I think there's some amongst their leadership contenders who might stand a reasonable chance at doing that.

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